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  #1  
Old 03-07-2019, 3:35 PM
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Default Transporting maglocked ar

I can’t find the answer to this, so hoping the brain trust here can help me out

When transporting a mag lock AR, do I have to have an empty mag in it?
Assuming in a locked case, or locked in trunk of vehicle

If there is no mag in it, does that make it an AW?

I heard that if you are shooting, and open the action to drop the mag, but close the action prior to inserting a mag, you have made an AW?
Truth or FUD?
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  #2  
Old 03-07-2019, 4:45 PM
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Without a magazine in it, CA considers it an AW if the gun is operable (not separated upper/lower)

I keep an empty mag and chamber flag in mine all the time unless actually shooting.
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  #3  
Old 03-07-2019, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Without a magazine in it, CA considers it an AW if the gun is operable (not separated upper/lower)

I keep an empty mag and chamber flag in mine all the time unless actually shooting.
I would be interested to learn the source of that CA policy you report.

It's easier for LE to avoid confusion if there is a mag in the mag well, but that's different from a legal requirement.
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Old 03-07-2019, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I would be interested to learn the source of that CA policy you report.



It's easier for LE to avoid confusion if there is a mag in the mag well, but that's different from a legal requirement.
Isn't it in the DOJ fixed mag regulations (proposed or in place I don't recall) for a firearm that isn't a RAW already and upper and lower are not disassembled?
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  #5  
Old 03-07-2019, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Isn't it in the DOJ fixed mag regulations (proposed or in place I don't recall) for a firearm that isn't a RAW already and upper and lower are not disassembled?
Nope.

Back before the law changed, lots of folks thought a bullet-buttoned rifle also needed a mag installed; I was told that in a gun store in Sac.

But at that time, and in the current situation, the receiver itself had/has been modified - the actual presence of a mag is not relevant legally.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Old 03-07-2019, 7:12 PM
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Hmm. A maglocked lower with no mag installed can technically still accept a detachable magazine. Is that ability no longer part of the law\regs? If I have all my evil features and no mag in the maglocked rifle I can force a mag into it. Can't remove it but it can accept one.

Guess I need to find the current regs and reread
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Old 03-07-2019, 7:45 PM
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The current consideration (for 'featured' centerfire semi-automatic rifles) is 'must one disassemble the action to remove the mag?' If yes, all is well.

PC 30515 in relevant parts
Quote:

30515.

(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
...
(b) For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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  #8  
Old 03-08-2019, 11:27 AM
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Based on that if the firearm is assembled without a magazine in it and it is assembled, as noted in my original reply, then it does not meed the requirement of a fixed magazine and is thus an AW.

Not sure how my first reply was wrong. I assumed the OP's rifle in question has evil features since it has a maglock on it, could be a bad assumption but its a valid one to make.
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  #9  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Based on that if the firearm is assembled without a magazine in it and it is assembled, as noted in my original reply, then it does not meed the requirement of a fixed magazine and is thus an AW.

Not sure how my first reply was wrong. I assumed the OP's rifle in question has evil features since it has a maglock on it, could be a bad assumption but its a valid one to make.
On that interpretation, one would be required to reload the mag in place, instead of break open, remove empty mag, close, insert charged mag.

Since the definition includes "the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action " removing the mag is anticipated.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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  #10  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
On that interpretation, one would be required to reload the mag in place, instead of break open, remove empty mag, close, insert charged mag.

Since the definition includes "the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action " removing the mag is anticipated.
I am so confused as to what you are describing. I can normally clearly understand your posts and meaning.

One component of being an AW is not having a fixed mag which is defined as a feeding device being contained in or perm attached to to firearm. If you do not have the mag in the gun and it has evil features, then it is an AW (unless per the DOJ regs it is dissembled). If the mag is not contained in the gun then it is not a fixed mag. Is it not that simple?

How are you getting
Quote:
On that interpretation, one would be required to reload the mag in place, instead of break open, remove empty mag, close, insert charged mag.
from
Quote:
Based on that if the firearm is assembled without a magazine in it and it is assembled, as noted in my original reply, then it does not meed the requirement of a fixed magazine and is thus an AW.
(other than saying assembled twice)

But you are correct that it is not a requirement to have the magazine in it during transport, but there are other ramifications of that situation. The major one being you now have an AW that is not registered, assuming the OP is asking his question because his is not a RAW.

Maybe that is what you were trying to communicate?
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  #11  
Old 03-08-2019, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
One component of being an AW is not having a fixed mag which is defined as a feeding device being contained in or perm attached to to firearm. If you do not have the mag in the gun and it has evil features, then it is an AW (unless per the DOJ regs it is dissembled). If the mag is not contained in the gun then it is not a fixed mag. Is it not that simple?
It doesn't work like that.

I suspect you are suffering from 'namespace collision'.

There is 'common usage' where one might say 'look, the magazine comes out, this must be a removable magazine'.

And there is 'legal definition', where it does not matter whether the magazine comes out (or, in this discussion, is even present), so long as that is possible only when the firearm action is disassembled.

Range rules for cease fire usually require removing mags and inserting a chamber flag; do you suppose the ranges are demanding the shooters create 'assault weapons' at every cease fire?
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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  #12  
Old 03-08-2019, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
I am so confused as to what you are describing. I can normally clearly understand your posts and meaning.

One component of being an AW is not having a fixed mag which is defined as a feeding device being contained in or perm attached to to firearm. If you do not have the mag in the gun and it has evil features, then it is an AW (unless per the DOJ regs it is dissembled). If the mag is not contained in the gun then it is not a fixed mag. Is it not that simple?
He already quoted the pertinent code section defining "fixed magazine" above in post #7, you should re-read it.
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Old 03-08-2019, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
It doesn't work like that.

I suspect you are suffering from 'namespace collision'.

There is 'common usage' where one might say 'look, the magazine comes out, this must be a removable magazine'.

And there is 'legal definition', where it does not matter whether the magazine comes out (or, in this discussion, is even present), so long as that is possible only when the firearm action is disassembled.

Range rules for cease fire usually require removing mags and inserting a chamber flag; do you suppose the ranges are demanding the shooters create 'assault weapons' at every cease fire?
Are you both saying that I can have my maglocked AR fully assembled with no magazine in it and it not be considered an assault weapon under 30515?

Your common usage example is not happening here. I am not talking about it being removable or not, simply does it have a magazine in it while the firearm assembled.

Because to me, there is no magazine "contained in or perm attached to" the rifle so it does not meet the definition for having a fixed magazine, thus is deemed an AW. The exception being the DOJ regs(??) that said a disassembled firearm is not a firearm for the definition of an AW. Hence my original reply that having no mag in an assembled rifle makes it an AW (on the assumption that he is asking because it has evil features)

As for your last line I am not sure which way you are arguing. If you disassemble the rifle to remove the magazine and leave it disassembled with a chamber flag, then how is anyone creating an 'assault weapon' during cease fire?

As for range rules, I have not had any issue with leaving and empty mag in the gun as long as the chamber flag is present. Otherwise I drop the mag and leave the rifle disassembled (broke open via kingpin device) with the flag.

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am trying to best understand to keep myself out of jail and in possession of my property. I know there were previous posts about this stuff and I thought my understanding was inline with the results of those original threads.
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Old 03-08-2019, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post

PC 30515 in relevant parts
30515.

(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
...
(b) For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
So basically you are saying since the definition of a fixed mag only applies to how its removed. A fixed magazine rifle without a mag can accept a magazine and still be compliant as long as the action needs to be disabled to remove it?
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Old 03-08-2019, 3:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Hmm. A maglocked lower with no mag installed can technically still accept a detachable magazine.
It can accept an attachable magazine. Not a detachable magazine.

Insert the mag and it becomes locked and not detachable. Plus I would think some if not most (or all?) of these 2.0 ‘action open’ mag locks would preclude insertion of the mag without the action open, because the mag catch has to open some to insert the mag. I am not familiar with them all, but the Hogue Freedom Fighter for instance blocks all movement of the mag release, and unless your mag body can flex and return, it isn’t going in unless the action is opened.
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Old 03-08-2019, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
So basically you are saying since the definition of a fixed mag only applies to how its removed. A fixed magazine rifle without a mag can accept a magazine and still be compliant as long as the action needs to be disabled to remove it?
Yes.

That's it, exactly.

The rifle has been modified to meet the operational definition of 'fixed magazine' - the presence or absence of a magazine is not relevant.

This is exactly the same argument as having a bullet-button used to be - the old 'detachable magazine' rule was 'it is not detachable if you need to use a tool to remove it' but it was fine to remove it using the tool to operate the bullet-button.

In neither the old 'bullet button' case nor the new 'fixed magazine' case is the magazine itself ** important, so long as the removal of the mag follows the rule.

This is by no means 'common sense', it's legal jargon and definition.



** presuming we stick to 10-round mags!
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Last edited by Librarian; 03-08-2019 at 4:00 PM..
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Old 03-08-2019, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by broadside View Post
Are you both saying that I can have my maglocked AR fully assembled with no magazine in it and it not be considered an assault weapon under 30515?
Yes.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 03-08-2019, 9:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
It doesn't work like that.

I suspect you are suffering from 'namespace collision'.

There is 'common usage' where one might say 'look, the magazine comes out, this must be a removable magazine'.

And there is 'legal definition', where it does not matter whether the magazine comes out (or, in this discussion, is even present), so long as that is possible only when the firearm action is disassembled.

Range rules for cease fire usually require removing mags and inserting a chamber flag; do you suppose the ranges are demanding the shooters create 'assault weapons' at every cease fire?

Bahahahahaha!!! LMFAO!!!
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Old 03-08-2019, 9:41 PM
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do law abiding citizens need to pass bar exams to understand all these penal codes???
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Old 03-08-2019, 9:51 PM
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do law abiding citizens need to pass bar exams to understand all these penal codes???
Seems like it some days.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 03-10-2019, 3:38 PM
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Thanks for the replies
Yes, it has very scary evil features, hence the maglock
I really don’t want to be a test case, I will probably insert an empty mag with a flag for transportation , but good to know i won’t get rolled up at the range if I close the action prior to inserting a mag
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Old 03-10-2019, 3:57 PM
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do law abiding citizens need to pass bar exams to understand all these penal codes???
No need to understand. Just comply!
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Old 03-11-2019, 9:25 AM
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I have Franklin DFM mags, good things to have because it's not going in or out without disassembly. At least for storage and transportation peace of mind.

If you're AR is maglocked without a mag, as long as when the LEO inserts a mag it cannot be removed without disassembly of the action you are good to go.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Yes.

That's it, exactly.

The rifle has been modified to meet the operational definition of 'fixed magazine' - the presence or absence of a magazine is not relevant.

This is exactly the same argument as having a bullet-button used to be - the old 'detachable magazine' rule was 'it is not detachable if you need to use a tool to remove it' but it was fine to remove it using the tool to operate the bullet-button.

In neither the old 'bullet button' case nor the new 'fixed magazine' case is the magazine itself ** important, so long as the removal of the mag follows the rule.

This is by no means 'common sense', it's legal jargon and definition.



** presuming we stick to 10-round mags!
Yup.

However I do tend to keep a 10 round locked in at all times just in case some Barney Fife type LEO that doesn’t know his *** from his elbow wants to check it.

I figured it would be easier and quicker to demonstrate it is fixed.

“Look(you doofus)-push the release button that mag ain’t coming out -it’s fixed per the law.”

Neither Angeles nor A place to shoot range officers have had a problem with a fixed mag left in the gun during breaks.

I do put a chamber flag in-but one told me I didn’t even need to do that as long as he sees the bolt back he sees there’s no rounds in the chamber and mag.
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Old 03-14-2019, 2:16 PM
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My understanding is similar to yours Broadside. I've always interpreted the act of inserting a magazine into a fully assembled (with evil parts) centerfired rifle as a no no since the regs (last time I read them) said something along the lines of "if the fully assembled rifle can accept (to insert) a magazine that it was not a magazine locked rifle to begin with. That's why I try to only insert or eject the magazine after "disassembling" the upper and lower via takedown pin.
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Old 03-14-2019, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
"if the fully assembled rifle can accept (to insert) a magazine that it was not a magazine locked rifle to begin with.
Entirely wrong.

Again, the 'fixed magazine' bit is a modification to the rifle, and is present whether or not a magazine is in the same vicinity.

The critical process is removal, not insertion.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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Old 03-14-2019, 5:14 PM
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Entirely wrong.

Again, the 'fixed magazine' bit is a modification to the rifle, and is present whether or not a magazine is in the same vicinity.

The critical process is removal, not insertion.
Librarian, I respect your knowledge and opinion but for the sake of discussion, not argument, per section hh (1) "A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm". To me that means if not registered or action open, then without a magazine equals an AW.
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Old 03-14-2019, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
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Librarian, I respect your knowledge and opinion but for the sake of discussion, not argument, per section hh (1) "A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm". To me that means if not registered or action open, then without a magazine equals an AW.
It's a firearm, certainly.

So what?

Under current law, a semiautomatic centerfire rifle with 'features' is an 'assault weapon' unless
Quote:
30515.

(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
...
(b) For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.
If your rifle has been modified so a magazine cannot be removed without opening the action - "disassembly of the firearm action" - that rifle is NOT an 'assault weapon', magazine inserted or not.

The definition allows for removal: "device cannot be removed without...".

Any magazine inserted still would require "disassembly of the firearm action" to remove it - it's the rifle's configuration for removal that is critical.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 03-14-2019, 8:00 PM
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Librarian, regarding the OPs specific question and condition of transporting his AR with mag lock which leads me to believe it's also featured and action closed and no magazine... condition (1) applies, condition (b) is only true AFTER a magazine is inserted. Until then, what he has in his hands is a rifle that does not have a "feeding device contained in or permanently attached to". I'll leave it at this because this is how I'm interpreting the law and I'm not a lawyer.
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Old 03-14-2019, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
Librarian, regarding the OPs specific question and condition of transporting his AR with mag lock which leads me to believe it's also featured and action closed and no magazine... condition (1) applies, condition (b) is only true AFTER a magazine is inserted. Until then, what he has in his hands is a rifle that does not have a "feeding device contained in or permanently attached to". I'll leave it at this because this is how I'm interpreting the law and I'm not a lawyer.
PC 30515 (b) is a requirement to modify the weapon so it functions in a particular way. Once modified, that weapon meets the definition of' fixed magazine' - that's what the law says.

Why is it you do not accept the text of the Penal Code?

Our Fine Legislators, while clearly limited in their understanding of guns, are entirely capable of writing a law that would require a magazine to be actually present at all times. That requirement is not in Penal Code nor regulations.
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No one will really understand politics until they understand that politicians are not trying to solve our problems. They are trying to solve their own problems - of which getting elected and re-elected are number one and number two. Whatever is number three is far behind.
- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 03-14-2019 at 8:11 PM..
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Old 03-14-2019, 8:16 PM
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It's all about interpretation. We respectfully agree to disagree. I am sure your level of gun laws is 1000x more than what little I know but I chose to be extra careful and not take any risks even if it means going through silly and unnecessary steps. Thank you for all that you do and share on Calguns.
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Old 03-14-2019, 9:04 PM
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It's all about interpretation. We respectfully agree to disagree. I am sure your level of gun laws is 1000x more than what little I know but I chose to be extra careful and not take any risks even if it means going through silly and unnecessary steps. Thank you for all that you do and share on Calguns.
I enthusiastically endorse doing what makes you feel comfortable. Evaluating your risk and choosing to accept a level of risk that meets your needs is very wise.
__________________
No one will really understand politics until they understand that politicians are not trying to solve our problems. They are trying to solve their own problems - of which getting elected and re-elected are number one and number two. Whatever is number three is far behind.
- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #33  
Old 03-15-2019, 8:19 AM
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This is all based on the premise that the average LEO in California knows the laws as well as we do.

My experience is that is not so. This is why every AR design I own is featureless and why I carry a printout of the California gun laws in my range bag. I've had to educate some LEO's before. Better on site rather than back at the police station.
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Old 03-15-2019, 1:24 PM
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I completely agree with Librarians reading of the law.

However, like you have little confidence in LEOs knowledge and application of CA firearms law.

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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
This is all based on the premise that the average LEO in California knows the laws as well as we do.

My experience is that is not so. This is why every AR design I own is featureless and why I carry a printout of the California gun laws in my range bag. I've had to educate some LEO's before. Better on site rather than back at the police station.
My fixed magazine firearms always have a magazine in them and are literally fixed in place such that a set screw must be loosened and is accessible only when the action is open in order to operate the magazine release.
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