CR FFL 03 ATF Inspection, After Action Report Thread

[Anthonysmanifesto]

...................

[hoozaru]

lol tales from the creeps

[crowbar]

On my third C & R renewal. No ATF visits yet. YMMV, but hopefully not.

[SVT-40]

I had one years ago. It was very straight forward. The compliance Inspector showed up at the appointed time. I had my C&R firearms in the living room for him to inspect. I read off the serial numbers, and he confirmed them from my register book. That was about it. The whole thing took less than one hour.

No big thing.

[Mark One]

So they call first and make an appointment?

I was told they will just stop by at random if they "feel like it" and inspect your collection then and there.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Mark One

So they call first and make an appointment?

I was told they will just stop by at random if they "feel like it" and inspect your collection then and there.

There have been a few reports of inspectors calling up and saying they want to do an inspection that day. Also, a couple of folks have reported coming home and finding a BATFE business card on the front door, which would imply that an inspector was planning to inspect them unannounced.

However, if something like that ever happens to you it is perfectly legal for you to tell them that you want the inspection to take place at the closest BATFE inspection office.

BATFE inspectors are used to dealing only with FFL's that are in business, like Type 01 FFL's. Most of them don't really seem to be up to speed on Licensed Collectors. That is probably why they sometimes just show up at your door, since they are allowed to do that with other kinds of FFL's.

But any contact at all with a BATFE inspector is extremely rare for Type 03 FFL's.

[SVT-40]

Yes they should call first. If they just show up, politely tell them it's not convenient right now and arrange for a future date for the inspection. They cannot just barge in.

Remember you are not running a business and have no "business hours" like a 01 type FFL who are subject to spot inspections.

[dustoff31]

Other than a renewal, the only time I've ever even heard from BATFE was receiving an updated state gun laws book a while back.

[vandal]

Yes, I was inspected at renewal time. NBD.

[AraiGuma]

I just got a call from ATF for inspection, and I set an appointment on 2/3(Tue). The inspector told me that inspection has to be done at my FFL address. Maybe she was confused with 01-FFL inspection. Not a big deal to me anyways.

I will report the result once it's done.

[paul0660]

I just got a call from ATF for inspection, and I set an appointment on 2/3(Tue). The inspector told me that inspection has to be done at my FFL address. Maybe she was confused with 01-FFL inspection. Not a big deal to me anyways.

I will report the result once it's done.

Please straighten them out if you can. They are ignorant of the laws or misreading them, and wasting our money.

[Fate]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

I just got a call from ATF for inspection, and I set an appointment on 2/3(Tue). The inspector told me that inspection has to be done at my FFL address. Maybe she was confused with 01-FFL inspection. Not a big deal to me anyways.

I will report the result once it's done.

Contact her ASAP and demand to do it at their offices per the BATFE guidelines. You have NOTHING to gain (and everything to lose) by letting a Federal agent in your house.

[TheBundo]

Originally Posted by paul0660

Please straighten them out if you can. They are ignorant of the laws or misreading them, and wasting our money.

How is coming to your house wasting your money?

[grammaton76]

Originally Posted by TheBundo

How is coming to your house wasting your money?

If all sensible C&R holders want the inspection performed at ATF locations, then it's a waste of taxpayer money for the agent to make an unannounced house call only to be denied, thus wasting the gas and the agent's time. For that matter, if they wanted to see me during the day, the only way it'd happen is if they came on a weekend or arranged it ahead of time.

[TonyNorCal]

If one exercises the 'inspection at ATF headquarters' option is one required to bring the whole collection or just the bound book?

If it's the whole collection it might be a bit funny for some collectors. And, it might pose some logistical challenges.

[AraiGuma]

Whole collection and a book as they have to check and match the serial number. That's my main reason to accept their request to have inspection at home. Moving 20+ guns at a time is not easy, I guess.

Originally Posted by TonyNorCal

If one exercises the 'inspection at ATF headquarters' option is one required to bring the whole collection or just the bound book?

If it's the whole collection it might be a bit funny for some collectors. And, it might pose some logistical challenges.

[AraiGuma]

SVT-40,
Did you have to show him a copy of DROS (for the C&R purchaseed through 01-FFL) as well? I do have most, but not all DROS as there is no requirment for buyer to keep DROS.

Originally Posted by SVT-40

I had one years ago. It was very straight forward. The compliance Inspector showed up at the appointed time. I had my C&R firearms in the living room for him to inspect. I read off the serial numbers, and he confirmed them from my register book. That was about it. The whole thing took less than one hour.

No big thing.

[JDay]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

SVT-40,
Did you have to show him a copy of DROS (for the C&R purchaseed through 01-FFL) as well? I do have most, but not all DROS as there is no requirment for buyer to keep DROS.

DROS is a California thing, the feds could care less about it.

[AraiGuma]

I thought so, but just wanted to ask to someone who actually went through.

Originally Posted by JDay

DROS is a California thing, the feds could care less about it.

[bravoecho]

Anyone heard of BAFTE requiring an inspection BEFORE issuing an 03 license?

[ke6guj]

I've heard of them doing pre-licensed inspections on very rare occasions.

[steven_m64]

It depends on where you live.

i have heard multiple times of individuals in new york having to have inspections on renewal or on application for a FFL03.

[bravoecho]

After not having received anything in mail after 90+ days since applying, I decided to call ATF for status. I finally connected with a local ATF Agent/Inspector (Riverside County). She indicated that there was an inspection necessary before license could be issued and that this was the norm. Wonder if she may be confused with 01 applicants?

[Dr Rockso]

Originally Posted by bravoecho

After not having received anything in mail after 90+ days since applying, I decided to call ATF for status. I finally connected with a local ATF Agent/Inspector (Riverside County). She indicated that there was an inspection necessary before license could be issued and that this was the norm. Wonder if she may be confused with 01 applicants?

On the couple of occasions I've spoken with ATF personnel regarding my 03 license I've been told things that do not apply to 03 FFLs. I think they probably deal with the others (01s mostly) so much more than 03s that they forget the rules are different for us.

[Nodda Duma]

Originally Posted by Dr Rockso

On the couple of occasions I've spoken with ATF personnel regarding my 03 license I've been told things that do not apply to 03 FFLs. I think they probably deal with the others (01s mostly) so much more than 03s that they forget the rules are different for us.

It's for that very reason that you as a FFL03 holder should be familiar with the laws governing your license. The ATF personnel interact very little with FFL03's and just aren't up to snuff (particularly in CA, apparently). It does everyone good if you know they have it wrong and can politely correct them, even better supplying them with references to the governing regulations.

-Jason

[Fate]

Originally Posted by bravoecho

After not having received anything in mail after 90+ days since applying, I decided to call ATF for status. I finally connected with a local ATF Agent/Inspector (Riverside County). She indicated that there was an inspection necessary before license could be issued and that this was the norm. Wonder if she may be confused with 01 applicants?

She's confused. No inspection required for 03FFL.

[Fate]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

Whole collection and a book as they have to check and match the serial number. That's my main reason to accept their request to have inspection at home. Moving 20+ guns at a time is not easy, I guess.

I know many 03FFLs that have taken *only* their bound book to the ATF offices for inspections. Having the rifles present is not required.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by Fate

I know many 03FFLs that have taken *only* their bound book to the ATF offices for inspections. Having the rifles present is not required.

The ATF inspector may choose to allow you to only bring in your bound book. But the law clearly allows them to require you to bring in your collection too.

[SVT-40]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

SVT-40,
Did you have to show him a copy of DROS (for the C&R purchaseed through 01-FFL) as well? I do have most, but not all DROS as there is no requirment for buyer to keep DROS.

The ATF could care less about any "DROS" information. Basically all the do is check the serial numbers in your bound book with the serial numbers on your C&R weapons. They make sure on the weapons you have sold or disposed of that you have complete info on who received them.

Keep good up to date records and it's a simple process. No tin foil hat needed!

They are not entitled to much else.

[Renored]

If you take in ONLY your bound book, what are they going to check or confirm?
Last renewal I had to list guns bought and sold for that preceding time period. Do they check against a list that ATF has? Thanks, Keith

[AraiGuma]

Thank you all for your advises. I'm happy to report that I'm in full compliance with ATF. I put all of my C&R firearms on the pool table prior to inspector's arrival, and we went through everything one by one. I read the serial, she compared it with my book record. Entire procedure took almost an hour, but it was straight forward.

After everything is done, I asked her about the inspection at their office. She said that law allows it and technically it is possible. However, unless you are in the situation to posses only a few (or no at all) guns, it is not ideal and will not be approved. They don't want you to come in to Federal building with a lot of guns... and neither do I.

[SVT-40]

Originally Posted by Renored

If you take in ONLY your bound book, what are they going to check or confirm?
Last renewal I had to list guns bought and sold for that preceding time period. Do they check against a list that ATF has? Thanks, Keith

If you choose to have the inspection at their office, in theory you will have to bring ALL the C&R firearms still logged in your bound book to their office for inspection and verification. That's why 99% of inspections are at your home or address where you are licensed.

I don't know about needing a "list of acquired and disposed of firearms" at the time of renewal. I have never heard of that. Your bound book covers this.

ATF has no "list" of the firearms you have acquired. It's your responsibility as a licensed collector to keep a list (bound book) for them. They just have a right to inspect and verify your list and the firearms in your licensed collection.

They have no right to inspect any firearms you acquired before you became licensed as a collector, or any modern non C&R firearms you own.

[AraiGuma]

I actually remember putting number of firearms I acquired and sold down to one of forms that I submitted at the time of my renewal. It was not a list, just two numbers that I had to fill in.

Originally Posted by SVT-40

I don't know about needing a "list of acquired and disposed of firearms" at the time of renewal. I have never heard of that. Your bound book covers this.

[hoffmang]

You can absolutely under all circumstances go to their office. Never invite an agent of the government into your home - especially to look at your firearms.

-Gene

[paul0660]

it is not ideal and will not be approved.

Clearly, their approval is not needed. They made the rules, they can follow them just as we are supposed to.

But, AraiGuma, some questions: Did you sign a form indicating completion of the inspection, and did she make any records of serial #, number of firearms, or storage?

Thanks for all the info.

[AraiGuma]

If you take that stance, you should not apply for C&R FFL at first place.

Originally Posted by hoffmang

You can absolutely under all circumstances go to their office. Never invite an agent of the government into your home - especially to look at your firearms.

-Gene

[AraiGuma]

Sure. However, at the same time, you should have some level of flexibility.

My point is that carrying 2 digits (for some collectors, 3 digits) of guns to their office at your own time and expense is not reasonable and realistic.

Anyways, that's me. I completed my inspection based on my will to have the inspector in to my house. That's my business and not others.

Originally Posted by Anthonysmanifesto

a Desire for strict compliance with the law is exactly why one would apply for the license

[AraiGuma]

After the inspection, both I and the inspector signed to a paper "Acknowledgement of Federal Firearms Regulations" as proof of completion. And yes, she took a log of my currently possessed firearms (make, model, serial number, type) in to her computer.

Originally Posted by paul0660

Did you sign a form indicating completion of the inspection, and did she make any records of serial #, number of firearms, or storage?

Thanks for all the info.

[paul0660]

Yes AraiGuma, thanks for the complete report. It will help anyone who gets inspected, no matter how they choose to do it.

Unfortunately, your C&R firearms are now, for all intents, registered.

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by AraiGuma

After the inspection, both I and the inspector signed to a paper "Acknowledgement of Federal Firearms Regulations" as proof of completion. And yes, she took a log of my currently possessed firearms (make, model, serial number, type) in to her computer.

I don't have a C&R yet, so this might be a noob question, but...

What is the point of the "Acknowledgement of Federal Firearms Regulations", and why does one need to sign it after an inspection? What happens if you decline to sign? Does this form benefit the license holder in any way?

-- Michael