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  #1  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:50 PM
BIZERKO BIZERKO is offline
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Default .223 sizing issues

I have a fairly new build AR15. Aero Precision upper/lower...BCA 18" .223 Wylde barrel, blah,blah,blah. The only rounds I've put through it have been Federal and some Frontier from L.A.X. All new and all with no problems.
So I recently started reloading for this cartridge (25 years loading pistol rounds) First thing I noticed was that my sized (Lee F/L sizer)rounds would not chamber in my gun. I tried shell holder contact with no turn, 1/8 turn, 1/4 turn and up to 1 full turn. It almost seems that I'm not 'bumping the shoulder enough. I also aquired a crap load of misc brass from a friend. Tried it before and after sizing with no luck.WTF can it be?
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2019, 1:10 PM
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Op you need a gauge to check brass and consider the use of a small base sizing die.
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Old 11-29-2019, 1:43 PM
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Picking up a case gauge tomorrow and from research I've been doing the small base die may be the answer. We'll see what happens
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Old 11-29-2019, 1:44 PM
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I feel your pain and understand. I went through this years ago after reloading pistol for years. This link below helped me a lot. Hopefully, it helps or gives you some ideas. Good luck.

Jay

https://youtu.be/XkjIx4CPCfk
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2019, 1:57 PM
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Try Small base dies is my first thought.
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Old 11-29-2019, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hundy View Post
I feel your pain and understand. I went through this years ago after reloading pistol for years. This link below helped me a lot. Hopefully, it helps or gives you some ideas. Good luck.

Jay

https://youtu.be/XkjIx4CPCfk
Great video, thanks.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2019, 2:01 PM
Divernhunter Divernhunter is offline
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Small base dies should solve the problem.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2019, 2:08 PM
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Another question, I've always adjusted my dies on my Dillon 750 a 1/4 to 1/2 turn after base contact. I'm using a little Lee single stage press for these .223's. How much of a turn would be considered excessive? I played with a full turn and a 1/4 and the results are better. Is that too much? doesn't seem like I should have to go that extreme.
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Old 11-29-2019, 2:52 PM
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Which Lee press are you using ?

The Frontier and Federal shot out of your gun should not require the small base die.
For me. Only the brass I bought on Gunbroker . I had to use the small base die. But it was military brass. I bought 6000 cases same headstamp.
After I shot it from my gun. I just use me Lee dies.
But 1 full turn is quite a bit..
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Old 11-29-2019, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
Which Lee press are you using ?

The Frontier and Federal shot out of your gun should not require the small base die.
For me. Only the brass I bought on Gunbroker . I had to use the small base die. But it was military brass. I bought 6000 cases same headstamp.
After I shot it from my gun. I just use me Lee dies.
But 1 full turn is quite a bit..
Using the Lee Precision Reloader Press, the basic one. (it was given to me)
I don't like the idea of a full turn but it seems to help.
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2019, 3:20 PM
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Small base dies are the ticket, I use my standard .223/5.56 dies set on my bolt gun and Contender the small base RCBS dies on the AR. Gotta have that case gage, otherwise you are just guessing, same for a good primer pocket and neck tension gage.
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2019, 4:06 PM
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OP:

Quote:
I also aquired a crap load of misc brass from a friend.
That brass will likely require a SB Sizing die. Especially if it is of military origin.

If curious as to what and where your resized cases are binding, and failing to chamber. Take a black Marks-A-Lot pen. AKA PoBoy Dykem. Coat a couple of the problem cases and cycle through the rifle by hand. Any area binding will show as "shiny spots" on the cases.

CASE GAGES..................NOT ALL HOLES ARE CREATED EQUAL. Many folks buy them only to find they are useless.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2019, 9:00 AM
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Quote:
CASE GAGES..................NOT ALL HOLES ARE CREATED EQUAL. Many folks buy them only to find they are useless.
I believe it's less that they are useless and more a misunderstanding of how to use them . Those gauges are cut to max SAAMI spec so a fired case "should" fit in them .

Here is L.E. Wilson explaining how to use there gauges to properly bump your shoulder back .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ

How many turns ? well that depends .

I'm going to try to make this short but it's hard to do so because of what needs to be said .

All presses have flex/deflection as you start to put a load on them as one does as you size a case . Sometimes it's in the press frame , other times it's in the ram linkage and often is a combination of both .

Example

Here are two photos with the exact same die setting and the ram fully up . The first is with no case in the die and the second is actually sizing a case





As you can see the die and shell holder are making contact in the first photo but when sizing a case ( putting a load on the press ) it causes the press to deflect leaving that gap you see in the second photo . This flex/deflection can cause inconsistent sized cases from head to datum point on the shoulder .

To correct this ( as you've been doing ) is to screw the die down until it makes firm contact with the shell holder at the top of the stroke while sizing a case .

For now I won't get into more advanced ways to get a consistent case headspace measurement and just ask you to look and see if there is a gap between the die and shell holder at the top of the stroke when sizing a case . If so you can screw the die down more . If not and your die and shell holder are in fact making firm contact at the top of the stroke when sizing a case . You very likely will need to use a small base die which sizes the diameter down a little more . This would also mean you will likely be able to back your die back out a tad but we'll leave that alone for now until the chambering issue is resolved .
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Last edited by Metal God; 11-30-2019 at 9:06 AM..
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2019, 9:23 AM
baih777 baih777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIZERKO View Post
Using the Lee Precision Reloader Press, the basic one. (it was given to me)
I don't like the idea of a full turn but it seems to help.
Is this the press your using ?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013020665?pid=807734
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:19 AM
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I use non-small base RCBS dies and I never had a problem, they fit in the case gauge after sizing. No way they'll fit before sizing.

What kind of crimp? I use Lee factory crimp.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIZERKO View Post
Another question, I've always adjusted my dies on my Dillon 750 a 1/4 to 1/2 turn after base contact. I'm using a little Lee single stage press for these .223's. How much of a turn would be considered excessive? I played with a full turn and a 1/4 and the results are better. Is that too much? doesn't seem like I should have to go that extreme.
you should not be able to turn your die down. you should have set the die up with the ram and shell holder in the up position and the die just touching the shell holder and maybe 1/4 turn further depending on slop in the press.

if you were a full turn off the shell holder you were not sizing the brass completely.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highpower790 View Post
Op you need a gauge to check brass and consider the use of a small base sizing die.
I've never had a need nor a desire to use a case gauge. Plunk test works every time. Calipers or a mic will tell you if your brass is in or out of spec.
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:45 PM
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Picked up a RCBS small base die set and a Lyman case gauge.
All is good in the world once again. Thanks for everyones replies.

Metal God...I checked on that, it took almost a full turn to get the gap to go away with the case in the press. I wasn't comfortable with that, hence I got the small base die. Works great!
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
you should not be able to turn your die down. you should have set the die up with the ram and shell holder in the up position and the die just touching the shell holder and maybe 1/4 turn further depending on slop in the press.

if you were a full turn off the shell holder you were not sizing the brass completely.
Wasn't off the press, it was a full turn down after shell holder contact.
Small base die did the trick
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Old 11-30-2019, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
I checked on that, it took almost a full turn to get the gap to go away with the case in the press. I wasn't comfortable with that, hence I got the small base die. Works great!
I'm glad you got it worked out . FWIW there is no reason to be uncomfortable with screwing the die down more until the die and shell holder touch when sizing . Remember if the die and shell holder have not touched at the top of the stroke the only stress being put on the press is the load it takes to size the case . That should never damage or over stress the press .

The only time you will be over stressing the press is on hard contact and or cam over with hard contact . Having it screwed down just enough for the two to kiss at the top of the stroke when sizing should not overly stress the press .

Quote:
I use non-small base RCBS dies and I never had a problem, they fit in the case gauge after sizing. No way they'll fit before sizing.
I would think then your chamber is a tad looser or you are a little hot on the load . On a max SAAMI spec chamber the spring back of the case should allow you to drop the case into a Wilson case gauge . As Pacrat pointed out though , not all holes are the same , maybe the Lyman or other gauges are not cut the same as the Wilson and not designed to be used in the same way .
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Last edited by Metal God; 11-30-2019 at 1:08 PM..
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  #21  
Old 11-30-2019, 2:13 PM
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My case gauge is a Wilson. My rifles are all mil type chambers, Colt and Bushmaster. I don't have any "precision" AR's, only combat type.
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Old 12-02-2019, 4:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIZERKO View Post
Wasn't off the press, it was a full turn down after shell holder contact.
Small base die did the trick
Well two things going on there. Either your press is worn or just crap and flexing to much. Being Lee that's not a surprise, or your dies are out of spec. most likely to much flex in the press.

This assumes of course that your chamber is not excessively tight. I've never needed a small base die until recently with my 6XC but that's how it was designed. I've never needed a small base die on any of the .223, 5.56 or 308 chambered AR's

Last edited by kcstott; 12-02-2019 at 4:41 AM..
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