Travel to San Francisco

[mikef]

I am going to fly to SF tomorrow. I have had my CCW for about two years. I am thinking about taking my firearm. From my understanding a hard case with a lock in my checked bag. Then the magazines and the ammo can be openly transported separately in my checked bag. Is that correct? Any paperwork or any other rules?

Now for San Francisco. I carry a Glock 26 with 12 round magazines. I thought I had heard that SF has a city ordinance that only allows 10 round magazines. Is this true? Any other rules or differences I should be aware of?

Thank you.

[edgerly779]

Ammo can be in case with firearm. Large cap mags can be an issue for local leos. TSA could care less none of their concern..

[Divehobo]

Just arrive at airport early as extra time needed to clear TSA. I leave mags in case with firearm when declaring.

Check into SF firearm regs, IIRC correctly, SF had some goofy ammo restrictions in place to prevent "dangerous" ammo from entering its sacred **** stained streets.

[mikef]

Originally Posted by Divehobo

Just arrive at airport early as extra time needed to clear TSA. I leave mags in case with firearm when declaring.

Check into SF firearm regs, IIRC correctly, SF had some goofy ammo restrictions in place to prevent "dangerous" ammo from entering its sacred **** stained streets.

Ok. Thank you. So there is paperwork for TSA? I can’t just put it in my checked bag locked up and check it in without saying anything about it?

[Divehobo]

here is some info regarding ammo, knew I had seen something about it

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...ht=ammo+ccw+SF

[mikef]

Thank you. I carry the Federal Premium law enforcement ammo which is one of the three banned. So I am glad you posted that.

[Divehobo]

Originally Posted by mikef

Ok. Thank you. So there is paperwork for TSA? I can’t just put it in my checked bag locked up and check it in without saying anything about it?

Just put it in your checked bag, lol, NO!

Undeclared is nothing that I would be willing to risk. Might be nothing but then again, might be huge issue especially since you posted for all too see. Risk not worth reward in my books and probably keep you off the 24/7 news cycle and out of the newspaper.

You can download TSA firearm declaration from TSA website. You can also see airline info regarding traveling with firearm in luggage. Easy enough to access online.

[mikef]

Originally Posted by Divehobo

Just put it in your checked bag, lol, NO!

Undeclared is nothing that I would be willing to risk. Might be nothing but then again, might be huge issue especially since you posted for all too see. Risk not worth reward in my books and probably keep you off the 24/7 news cycle and out of the newspaper.

You can download TSA firearm declaration from TSA website. You can also see airline info regarding traveling with firearm in luggage. Easy enough to access online.

Ok. Thank you. I will look into it now.

[9Cal_OC]

Keep your 10+ mags at home. SF has an ordinance banning high cap mags. Someone will chime in with citation but I wouldn’t risk it

[Caper]

10+ rounds “in the gun” are illegal anywhere in CA unless LEO, registered AW (not BBAW), or exemption I don’t know if. Possession of the mags at the moment are legal but once in the firearm that’s a big problem. As other mentioned even possession in SF I think are banned.

Also I believe any and all hollow point ammo is banned in SF.

TSA rules have to be followed but your airline may also have their own rules.

Hope this helps.

[CessnaDriver]

Originally Posted by Caper

10+ rounds “in the gun” are illegal anywhere in CA unless LEO, registered AW (not BBAW), or exemption I don’t know if. Possession of the mags at the moment are legal but once in the firearm that’s a big problem. As other mentioned even possession in SF I think are banned.

Also I believe any and all hollow point ammo is banned in SF.

TSA rules have to be followed but your airline may also have their own rules.

Hope this helps.

I'm a missing something? forgive me.
For now during the injunction, you can use 10+ mags "in the gun" as long as it's not evil featured.



For CCW, issuing agency policy.

For San Diego for instance it's on their web site as a FAQ....

Can a CCW licensee carry an approved firearm with more than ten rounds in the magazine if that high capacity magazine is legal?

The CCW license does not define magazine capacity, just the firearm. If the magazine and firearm are legal to purchase and own in the state of California, and the firearm is listed on the license, a CCW permit holder may carry. (Note: California firearms laws are subject to change. It is the responsibility of the CCW permit holder to ensure the firearm & magazine are in compliance with California law at the time of carry.)



Travel to other counties? I'm all ears on penal codes.

[Caper]

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

I'm a missing something? forgive me.
For now during the injunction, you can use 10+ mags "in the gun" as long as it's not evil featured.



For CCW, issuing agency policy.

For San Diego for instance it's on their web site as a FAQ....

Can a CCW licensee carry an approved firearm with more than ten rounds in the magazine if that high capacity magazine is legal?

The CCW license does not define magazine capacity, just the firearm. If the magazine and firearm are legal to purchase and own in the state of California, and the firearm is listed on the license, a CCW permit holder may carry. (Note: California firearms laws are subject to change. It is the responsibility of the CCW permit holder to ensure the firearm & magazine are in compliance with California law at the time of carry.)



Travel to other counties? I'm all ears on penal codes.

I could be wrong but I don’t believe the injunction covers in the gun, just possession. Injunction covers the Prop 63 law right, but the 10 round limit was in place long before that. I’d check with Michel & Assoc. before submitting a firearm with 10+ mag for inspection.

[edgerly779]

Check in at counter fill out affidavit place in case containing firearm. Go to security wait for them to ok. Lock and go to gate. Pick up at destination.

[JoyfulJoker]

Solano County Sheriff stated that standard capacity mags bought / altered during freedom week are legal to possess and carry for CCW . However , SF has a ban on mags over 10 rounds.

[GetMeCoffee]

Originally Posted by Caper

10+ rounds “in the gun” are illegal anywhere in CA unless LEO, registered AW (not BBAW), or exemption I don’t know if.

I try to stay informed on legalities, but I was not aware of this. Is it not legal to carry with a 10 round mag + 1 in the chamber (11 rounds total)?

I am not aware of a state law covering this and I double checked at USACarry, USConcealedCarry, GunlawsByState, NRACarryGuard, HandgunLaw.us, GunsToCarry and searched leginfo.legislature.ca.gov (trying "rounds" and "cartridges").

Can anyone confirm that this restriction exists and point me to the Code & Section?

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by Caper

10+ rounds “in the gun” are illegal anywhere in CA unless LEO, registered AW (not BBAW), or exemption I don’t know if. Possession of the mags at the moment are legal but once in the firearm that’s a big problem. As other mentioned even possession in SF I think are banned.

Also I believe any and all hollow point ammo is banned in SF.

TSA rules have to be followed but your airline may also have their own rules.

Hope this helps.

Bs. Unadulterated BS.

[Romeo_alpha01]

Just come to Solano county where you won’t get hassled. We have Jelly Belly, lol.

[RedDragon]

So much FUDD in this thread. Only good advice so far is to declare to TSA and hand over weapon for inspection in an unloaded state. DO NOT leave your mags or ammo outside of your locked container after inspection; that's asking for trouble/theft.

[racinjason233]

Hard sided lockable case. I like the harbor freight ones. I use 2 padlocks and walk to the ticket counter and say “I need to declare”. Let them figure out what and say firearm or gun with questions. They fill out form and tape it to hard case. I sometimes have to open the case for inspection by completely incompetent folks who don’t own firearms. They look you close and lock. Wait 10-15 mins near the gate and go board your plane. Pick up at check baggage claim as normal. standard magazine with non banned ammo would be my recommendation. Ammo needs to be in box designed to hold ammo or in magazines. Loaded mags are fine next to gun in locked container. Remove round from chamber!! Repeat double check chamber just before locking hard sided case!! It is very easy to fly with pistols. Leave extra time to get to gate and worry not TSA to the rescue...

[doc66]

Best and most accurate advice I have seen. Just to add, it depends on the carrier. SWA is great to fly with and easiest for me that I have experienced. I did do something different though. I kept unloaded magazines and ammo in the boxes they were sold in, all in a separate locked container. So I travelled with 2 locked cases. One was a pelican type that held the firearm and the other was a lock box with the ammo and unloaded magazines. I also ran a cable lock from the pelican handle and through the internal metal handle rails So now the pelican is cabled down to the luggage of sorts. (just something to make it harder for anyone to reach in an grab the case.) At destination, I used the lock box and cable and kept that in the trunk of the rental. I could use that for situations where gun free zone and need to lock it down in the car. Hope this helps for future travel.

Originally Posted by racinjason233

Hard sided lockable case. I like the harbor freight ones. I use 2 padlocks and walk to the ticket counter and say “I need to declare”. Let them figure out what and say firearm or gun with questions. They fill out form and tape it to hard case. I sometimes have to open the case for inspection by completely incompetent folks who don’t own firearms. They look you close and lock. Wait 10-15 mins near the gate and go board your plane. Pick up at check baggage claim as normal. standard magazine with non banned ammo would be my recommendation. Ammo needs to be in box designed to hold ammo or in magazines. Loaded mags are fine next to gun in locked container. Remove round from chamber!! Repeat double check chamber just before locking hard sided case!! It is very easy to fly with pistols. Leave extra time to get to gate and worry not TSA to the rescue...

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Caper

10+ rounds “in the gun” are illegal anywhere in CA unless LEO, registered AW (not BBAW), or exemption I don’t know if.

As already noted, no - that's wrong.

People have been using pre-2000 'grandfathered' LCMs for years in their carry guns, provided their IA does not object. Similarly, 'Freedom Week' LCMs may be used, presuming one avoids the 'assault weapon' complication.

No CA law establishes a limit for ammunition in a carry gun; Fish and Game code does limit rounds in some hunting weapons.

And, there's no reason not to use an LCM in a BBAW - the Bullet Button no longer makes a rifle 'fixed mag', so one cannot 'manufacture an assault weapon' by putting a LCM in a BB-equipped weapon.

[tomrkba]

Flying in with a gun is easy.

1) 10 round mags or less
2) Lockable case
3) Ammo in boxes of any sort.

[GuyFawkes]

Originally Posted by tomrkba

Flying in with a gun is easy.

1) 10 round mags or less
2) Lockable case
3) Ammo in boxes of any sort.

There's quite a bit more you need to do. It's not difficult but it is more detailed than just those three points you listed.

Most importantly you have to declare it at check in. The firearm must be unloaded. The firearm, magazines, and ammo must be in a locked container that only you have access to.

49 CFR 1540.5
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...1.3.5.9.1.10.3

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transport...and-ammunition

There are also airline specific rules that you need to follow because they are the ones that you are declaring to so you should know what they're looking for so you can avoid any drama. For example, Southwest also requires that magazines be empty even though that's not a TSA requirement. You can argue whether or not they can make that restriction but it's not really worth it in my opinion. Southwest also says that you can use a TSA lock to lock the case but that conflicts with the CFRs so I would not do that.

https://www.southwest.com/html/custo..._tab_10_scroll

[caliberetta]

Getting firearm traveling rules right is tricky.

We have to be aware of Federal/TSA, State, County, City and community rules, which often contradict each other. OK in one place, not ok in another. Then there is the generous availability of FUD, in this thread and all over the net.

On top of this, there are also Airline rules. For example, OP says he is traveling to SFO. Somebody said it's OK to have ammo in the same case as the gun. This is not always true. OP Did not indicate which airline. But if he was flying Alaska Airline, which is a busy airline for intra-CA travel, ammo is NOT ALLOWED in mags and the same container as the firearm. On Alaska Air, you may only transport it separately in a special container or in mags with covered tops. Not doing this can cause some very inconvenient travel issues.

There are also other concerns contained in this thread that are dead wrong.

For the OP and all of us, I suggest check the actual latest TSA guidelines, local ordinances, airport and airline rules. Check it DIRECTLY with each entity involved in the movement of your firearm. I myself almost had some bad problems by listening to well meaning but unfortunately bad advise. The best way is to verify it all directly, in today's day and age it's easier to do with the net.

Good luck.

[Great Made America]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

On top of this, there are also Airline rules. For example, OP says he is traveling to SFO. Somebody said it's OK to have ammo in the same case as the gun. This is not always true. OP Did not indicate which airline. But if he was flying Alaska Airline, which is a busy airline for intra-CA travel, ammo is NOT ALLOWED in mags and the same container as the firearm. On Alaska Air, you may only transport it separately in a special container or in mags with covered tops. Not doing this can cause some very inconvenient travel issues.

There are also other concerns contained in this thread that are dead wrong.
.

Indeed, a bouquet of bad info.

To your point regarding Alaska Airlines, my buddy has flown numerous times on Alaska with a box of ammunition in the same locked case as the firearm. They confirmed the policy by phone, inspected the firearm before each flight, and stamped it through. Did they tell you otherwise?



ALASKA AIRLINES policy:

Ammunition
On Alaska Airlines flights 001-1999 and flights 2000-2999, up to 50 lbs.(domestic) and 11 lbs. (international - where permitted) may be checked. Customers checking in or connecting to Alaska Airlines flights 3300-3499 are limited to 11 lbs. of ammunition. Ammunition must be securely packed in the original manufacturer's package or in a container designed for ammunition and of sufficient strength to protect it from accidental crushing or discharge (i.e. wood, fiber, plastic, or metal). Ammunition being sold in "original manufacturer packaging" where ammo is loose in a box or bucket cannot be accepted. The projectile must be no larger than 11/16" in diameter, the size of a dime. Ammunition may be checked with or separately from the firearm. Spent ammunition shells will be accepted in checked baggage provided they meet the same acceptance procedures as live ammunition (e.g. packed in a crush-proof case). Ammunition will only be accepted inside an ammunition clip if the magazine or clip has a complete and secure enclosure around it inside a suitcase, firearm, or crush-proof case.

[tanks]

Originally Posted by mikef

Ok. Thank you. So there is paperwork for TSA? I can’t just put it in my checked bag locked up and check it in without saying anything about it?

Absolutely NO. The x-ray machines will flag the luggage with the gun in it and divert it to the TSA inspectors. If undeclared, then you will be in a world of legal hurt.

Locked hard case for the gun, ammo and mags separate in the luggage and declare it, fill out the form to be affixed to the outside of the case. Depending on the airline/airport (procedures vary) they might have you walk the luggage to the TSA inspection point and stand by or not.

[FLIGHT762]

Federal HST and Winchester SXT are the banned ammunition.

[BrokerB]

Caper is full of sheite. Dont listen to any of his post.

[L84CABO]

Originally Posted by mikef

Ok. Thank you. So there is paperwork for TSA? I can’t just put it in my checked bag locked up and check it in without saying anything about it?

Check in at your airline counter (you can't curb check a firearm). Tell them you are traveling with a firearm. You'll get a form here that you place inside your case, right on top. That form becomes visible to them when they X-ray your case.

You do not need any other forms but it's not a bad idea to have a printout of your specific airline's firearm policy, and/or the TSA guidelines for transporting a firearm. This is just in case you get a ticket agent who doesn't know their own rules. Odds are you won't need it.

What happens next depends on the airport you are in. Some airports will have you take your bag to a special TSA agent who will inspect your bag. If your airport has this, then you can go ahead and go through security once you're done. Otherwise the ticket agent will take your bag directly...just like usual...and put it on the belt. In these instances it's usually best to wait 15-20 minutes before you go through security. TSA will likely be inspecting your bag in back and if they have any problems/questions, they'll page you. So arrive early enough to allow time for all of the above.

On the other end your bag will either be on the carousel or they'll be holding it where they typically hold the oversized luggage. It just depends on the given airport so check both places. Keep in mind that your destination airport might also have a slightly different check-in process than your home airport when it's time to come back. So, again, make sure you give yourself enough time.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Great Made America

Indeed, a bouquet of bad info.

To your point regarding Alaska Airlines, my buddy has flown numerous times on Alaska with a box of ammunition in the same locked case as the firearm. They confirmed the policy by phone, inspected the firearm before each flight, and stamped it through. Did they tell you otherwise?

ALASKA AIRLINES policy:

Ammunition
On Alaska Airlines flights 001-1999 and flights 2000-2999, up to 50 lbs.(domestic) and 11 lbs. (international - where permitted) may be checked. Customers checking in or connecting to Alaska Airlines flights 3300-3499 are limited to 11 lbs. of ammunition. Ammunition must be securely packed in the original manufacturer's package or in a container designed for ammunition and of sufficient strength to protect it from accidental crushing or discharge (i.e. wood, fiber, plastic, or metal). Ammunition being sold in "original manufacturer packaging" where ammo is loose in a box or bucket cannot be accepted. The projectile must be no larger than 11/16" in diameter, the size of a dime. Ammunition may be checked with or separately from the firearm. Spent ammunition shells will be accepted in checked baggage provided they meet the same acceptance procedures as live ammunition (e.g. packed in a crush-proof case). Ammunition will only be accepted inside an ammunition clip if the magazine or clip has a complete and secure enclosure around it inside a suitcase, firearm, or crush-proof case.

Your post is all correct.

In my post I indicated the approval for having the ammo in the same case as the firearm is "not always true." For example, somebody may transport the ammo in the same case as the firearm, but if the ammo is loaded into mags (but not inserted into the gun), he may think this is ok, because they are all locked into the same case, and this is allowed by the TSA. To wit (from the TSA website):



For Alaska this is not ok (as correctly referenced in your post):

On Alaska Airlines flights 001-1999 and flights 2000-2999, up to 50 lbs.(domestic) and 11 lbs. (international - where permitted) may be checked. Customers checking in or connecting to Alaska Airlines flights 3300-3499 are limited to 11 lbs. of ammunition. Ammunition must be securely packed in the original manufacturer's package or in a container designed for ammunition and of sufficient strength to protect it from accidental crushing or discharge (i.e. wood, fiber, plastic, or metal). Ammunition being sold in "original manufacturer packaging" where ammo is loose in a box or bucket cannot be accepted. The projectile must be no larger than 11/16" in diameter, the size of a dime. Ammunition may be checked with or separately from the firearm. Spent ammunition shells will be accepted in checked baggage provided they meet the same acceptance procedures as live ammunition (e.g. packed in a crush-proof case). Ammunition will only be accepted inside an ammunition clip if the magazine or clip has a complete and secure enclosure around it inside a suitcase, firearm, or crush-proof case.

Now whether they meant "clip" or "magazine" is yet another debatable point

At the end of the day, to reduce any risk of confusion and delay in my travel, including the potential confusion/misinterpretation of an airline officer, I just keep them completely separate, packing the ammo in a separate box as guided on the airline policy:



Hope this clarifies what I meant in my post. Happy travels to the OP and fellow calgunners.
.

[Great Made America]

^^^^^
Thanks for the added detail, and photo.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by FLIGHT762

Federal HST and Winchester SXT are the banned ammunition.

The SFPD website indicates that:

On April 2013 the San Francisco Board of Supervisors enacted San Francisco Municipal Police Code 618. The following ammunition is prohibited in the City and County of San Francisco:
-Winchester Black Talon
-Federal Premium "Law Enforcement Ammunition Tactical"
-Hornady "TAP (Tactical Application Police) Law Enforcement Ammunition"

However, the ordinance is much broader:

SEC. 618. PROHIBITED AMMUNITION.
(a) Definition. For purposes ofthis Section, "Prohibited Ammunition" shall mean:
(I) Ammunition sold under the brand name "Winchester Black Talon," or that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to ammunition presently or formerly sold under the brand name Winchester Black Talon; or,

(2) Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or 19 military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.
[...]
(d) Police Database. The San Francisco Police Department shall prepare or cause to be prepared a public database of brands and product lines of ammunition meeting the definition of "Prohibited Ammunition" in subsection (a). Failure of the Police Department to create or maintain such a database, or the omission from the database of a particular brand or product line of ammunition otherwise qualifying as "Prohibited Ammunition, under subsection (a), shall not be a defense to or otherwise excuse a violation of this Section.

So, the prohibition can almost be anything they want it to be at a given time. From a positive standpoint, this has been on the books for six years, and hasn't resulted in a flurry of enforcement. Beyond the initial virtue signally of the ordinance, it's probable that it would simply be used as an add-on to other charges once law enforcement had the ammunition in possession. But proving the equality of any unnamed ammunition to the stated ordinance would be difficult.

[Cortelli]

Good post, Dvrjon.

I would add my own view of the ordinance and the police-maintained db, with the proviso that nobody wants to be forced to be a test case.

The database that the police are directed to maintain is limited to "Prohibited Ammunition" as defined in subsection (a) of the ordinance. Properly adding brand names to the database, and keeping it updated, requires that the ammo being listed meets the definition of prohibited ammo.

There are two types of ammo that are "prohibited" -- (a)(1) Black Talon and clones; and (a)(2) ammo designated by its manufacturer for sale to LE agencies "unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition."

Fed HST is available in both LE and "Personal Defense" versions. Despite the packaging markings showing a case rim with either "Tactical" or "Personal Defense," I'm pretty sure that case rims of both are simply labeled with "Federal" and the caliber.

If one had a magazine full of HSTs there would be limited means to determine whether one purchased "LE Tactical" or "Personal Defense" HST rounds.

More importantly, the physical properties of the differing SKUs / marketing categories result in ballistics performance that are identical (according to Federal's website).

By the terms of the ordinance, HST is not "Prohibited Ammunition" under section (a)(1) because there are identical (ballistically) cartridges available to the general public; the SFPD just decided to add it to the database (or when they added it years ago the "civilian" versions weren't yet available and SFPD hasn't revisited the database in years).

Haven't looked at Hornady TAP because I don't use Hornady TAP. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hornady also offers TAP in a "civilian" version - of course at much higher cost, just like Federal does with HST, even though it is exactly the same cartridge.

Wordy post distilled: it seems reasonably clear to me that the HST listing in the SFPD database is invalid under the terms of the ordinance. Could be true for Hornady as well, but I haven't looked at it.

Everyone has their own risk tolerance; I wouldn't hesitate to use / possess HST in SF if I had chosen that cartridge as my preferred self-defense ammunition, notwithstanding the SFPD database.

[BrokerB]

Least of my worries being in San Fransicko is if I have approved bullets. Some of you need to put on your freedom pants.

[pzbike]

I always ask the Ticket Agent first thing, “May I please fill out the card to declare my firearm?” I believe it puts them at ease.

[Ewok55]

Speaking of San Francisco, what do you do with your gun if you want to go into a place you can't legally carry? Lock it up and keep it hidden in your vehicle? Vehicles are not a safe place to keep anything in San Francisco.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by BrokerB

Least of my worries being in San Fransicko is if I have approved bullets. Some of you need to put on your freedom pants.

True, but this “boogie-man” keeps popping up with a range of, “Everything’s banned and they’ll confiscate your gun,” to, ”Only Black Talons are banned,” to naming ammunition which isn’t specified anywhere in the ordinance or database.

Knowing what the actual ordinance says and why it’s impossible to implement on the street hopefully helps folks understand that this is a Chicken Little threat. It simply makes the SF progs feel good.

I’m more concerned with stepping in feces or on a hypo.

[Canadadry]

Did I miss something? Your CCW means nothing in San Francisco. What counties is your CCW good in?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by Canadadry

Did I miss something? Your CCW means nothing in San Francisco.

FPM - Frequently Posted Myth

Originally Posted by Canadadry

What counties is your CCW good in?

All of them, unless one's CCW is one of the rare birds, the 'open carry' variant or the 'non-resident' variant, both of which are restricted to county of issue.

[Divehobo]

Can someone point out what information I posted was FUD? Since I fly in and out of SFO pretty regularly with firearms, I am curious to know what information in my original posts were junk.