224 Valkyrie, why not more interest?

[liber]

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[eaglemike]

I've been interested in this (Valk) cartridge for a while.

I took a look at the linked page on PTG and don't see a disclaimer about safety. There's been at least a couple of 6.8 SPC chamber designs out there.It could be there's a disclaimer due to these historical differences.
Good luck!

[sigstroker]

Maybe they're talking about in an AR because there's not a lot of metal left in the bolt face.

When the Valkyrie first came out I was all gung-ho about it, but then a lot of new rifles had mediocre accuracy. I don't know if that was because of twist or freebore, or what. If I were putting together that sort of rifle now, I would do 6 ARC. It uses more expensive bullets, but only a little more powder. You get more authority at the target by a big amount. There is bolt gun data that gives almost 2900 fps with 108 gr bullets.

[liber]

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[liber]

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[waveslayer]

The biggest issues the 224 had was bad ammo that was recalled, and subpar performance in regards to accuracy.

Yes you can hit at 2100 yds, saw that on the Hide and Frank is now pushing it big time.

There are tools that will work and the right tools make it that much easier. Is it the right tool for ELR ? No, but anything can hit at 2100 yards.... I'd prefer a 300 Norma, 33XC or maybe my .338 Norma AI, but my Grendel isn't my first choice.

For an all around plinking gun, they are great, but again it's who builds the AR. I've seen guys struggle to get there 224 to group worth a Biden Supporter. A total joke of performance, while my Grendel made some amazing groups as low as thr atrump employment numbers

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[liber]

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[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by liber

I guess I'm starting to see why this round is not more popular. It seems it's just not got a lot of punch. More than not it seems people are shooting the 224 Valkyrie at 600 - 1000 yards.

In the end it seems better to repurpose an LR-308 into 6.5 Creedmoor.

In my defense on not being up on this stuff, I really haven't gone to the rifle range in several years, so don't keep up on this stuff. But the video I saw shooting the 224 Valkyrie at over 2000 yards is not norm, best I can tell, which would explain it.

I am struggling to build a new home/shop to retire to, and won't be able to get to anything on my mills or lathes until I get the shop in...In the meantime I could slap together a 6.5 Creedmoore on an LR-308 with only a barrel, bolt, mag, and shoot it local at 200 yards.

To take a strange twist on this thread (barrel pun not intended), would a semi-auto Creedmoor build on an LR-308 receiver (DPMS) be able to reach out far enough for the ELR in Upper Lake, CA ? I don't have as much interest in shooting in the Bay Area, and up in Lake County where I'm building there is an outdoor range down near Middletown which I'm not sure how long is. Also the ELR in Upper Lake. Once I have my shop setup I can get some time to work on my bolt action, I have a couple tools to make and a couple parts to get still, but have most of what I need.

What do you guys say on a semi-auto?

Why? You can buy a whole bolt action for about what a bare autoloader receiver set costs.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by liber

Seems it really depends on what type of shooting one does.

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but my original plan was 6.5 Creedmoor using large primers, so that I could use the same reloads in DPMS style AR lower with a 6.5 Creedmoor upper. I was thinking since I like 308 for up to about 600 yards, it can get out to 1000...but the 6.5 Creedmoor could comfortably get out to 1500...so maybe I could use the same loads in semi-auto and bolt. Maybe that's far fetched?

Comfortably? Look up the ballistics with the barrel length you have planned. If it doesn't stay supersonic at a certain distance, I don't know if I would say "comfortably". I'm happy that the cheap Savage I bought a couple years ago has a 26" barrel though.

[liber]

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[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Guys,

I did find the right reamer by calling PTG and speaking to Pete. I know some people don't care to use the PTG reamers and bolts, but they make the Redding reamers that they use for their dies, so I figure using the micrometer Reddings on a manual press on a barrel chambered with the PTG is going to get me a good match.

Is this still the case? I've seen that said in this forum over the past couple years.

As I said, this is really all about punching paper at 2000 yards, it just seems amazing that we can get a bullet out to that far with only 25 grains...

Here's the proper reamer for the 224 Valkyrie per Pete at PTG. He says everyone is using the SPC II.

https://pacifictoolandgauge.com/6-mm...er-reamer.html

6.8 SPCII is not a 224 valkrie.
224 Valkrie is a necked down 6.8SPC.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Seems it really depends on what type of shooting one does.

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but my original plan was 6.5 Creedmoor using large primers, so that I could use the same reloads in DPMS style AR lower with a 6.5 Creedmoor upper. I was thinking since I like 308 for up to about 600 yards, it can get out to 1000...but the 6.5 Creedmoor could comfortably get out to 1500...so maybe I could use the same loads in semi-auto and bolt. Maybe that's far fetched?

In hindsight it probably would have been wiser to just have gone 338M had I known I wouldn't be shooting at the 200 yard range nowadays, but our State has taken the enjoyment out of it for me, and some of the folks at the range.

I'm going to try and meet LynnJr up in Upper Lake in a couple weeks with the NorCal ELR and check it out. That should give me a better idea of how a 6.5 Creedmoor vs 338 might work. I have a stock for short action, and a stock is a big part of a bolt action build.

You really want a bolt gun to be able to take advantage the extra pressure you can run with small primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass.
The 6.5 creedmoor is a little 6.5 case.
I would not waste the powder and primers to shoot a little 6.5 at 2100yds.
6.5 Creedmoor is about as done at 1400yds as a 224 valkrie is at 1000yds.

Take the right tool for the job.
The 338 Ackley is a good start.
From there, you will get even better performance with larger cases and shorter barrel lives.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

All this said, LynnJr offered me to meet with the NorCal ELR in Upper Lake in a couple weeks.
That will at least give me a chance to talk with some of the other shooters and understand what others are shooting for 2000+ to understand if the 6.5 Creedmoor is just the wrong choice and maybe I should jump tracks to a long action 338M...

I can save you the 2 weeks right now.
The 6.5 creedmoor is the wrong choice if you want to actually play the game.
Build a 32" 338 ackley as your "starter" 2000yd rifle.

You can certainly go try with a 6.5 creedmoor if that's what you have, but you will be that guy with the bald tires on his stock 1987 honda civic showing up at a track day.
You will enjoy your attempt but everyone else will be laughing behind your back.

[sigstroker]

There are lots of short-action cartridges with more reach than 6.5 Creedmoor. 6.5 PRC, the SAUM line, probably 6mm Creedmoor, and a bunch of others.

[kriller134]

Originally Posted by liber

Yes, I agree. But that doesn't give me the right to manufacture one myself, and that would require I purchase through an FFL which places me in the State database. I realize a bolt action is difficult, but people have built them and it is entirely possible to cut the cam action by hand. Aside from that one piece, all of the parts are available off the shelf, tools as well...for this reason sticking with a PTG bolt using PTG reamers with Redding dies seems a safe bet to me as PTG provides Redding with their reamers also.

Let's say I was to buy a completed bolt action receiver from PTG, you can get a blueprinted action for 338M for the same price or cheaper than the 6.5 Creedmoor from PTG. So that's what I would do. But this would require I invest in the long action stock/chassis.

The reason I want the short action to work for me is I have a chassis to use for a short action (AICS non-folder 1st gen, with pistol grrip skins), and the chassis is a big chunk of a bolt action build. I think it would be very difficult to charge anyone with illegal manufacturing for a bolt action receiver, but the State and Fed at this point is saying otherwise. None of this has been tried in court either, so at least some grey area on both sides, iMO. EDIT: AFAICT, the 6.5 Creedmoor is possibly the only short action cartridge that could get out to 2000 yards, unless the 224 Valkyrie can as I thought when I started this thread, but that is a fluke, IMO.

Without question, a bolt action rifle will most likely be the last firearm to be illegal in all states, not just California.

All this said, LynnJr offered me to meet with the NorCal ELR in Upper Lake in a couple weeks. That will at least give me a chance to talk with some of the other shooters and understand what others are shooting for 2000+ to understand if the 6.5 Creedmoor is just the wrong choice and maybe I should jump tracks to a long action 338M...

You might wanna reconsider PTG. Do your research on them. Also, for a couple hundred more you can get a Zermatt origin with better features than a trued 700 from PTG.

[liber]

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[kriller134]

If you’re serious about long range shooting, you need to get on sniper’s hide and start doing research. No offense, but you’re so far off the mark by even remotely considering a 22 caliber for ELR. This is a very expensive game you’re getting into, so unless you like wasting ammo, get the right tool for the job.

[liber]

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[kriller134]

Yeah the hide can be brutal at times, but the search function will save you a lot of hassle. There truly is a wealth of knowledge on that website and many people willing to help, but you have to help yourself first.

As for keeping the current chassis you have, assuming it’s a 700 footprint, find an action that has a swappable bolt head. That allows you to switch calibers faster and cheaper than having to get a complete bolt. That’s why I recommend the origin and you can get them for under a grand.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by kriller134

Yeah the hide can be brutal at times, but the search function will save you a lot of hassle. There truly is a wealth of knowledge on that website and many people willing to help, but you have to help yourself first.

As for keeping the current chassis you have, assuming it’s a 700 footprint, find an action that has a swappable bolt head. That allows you to switch calibers faster and cheaper than having to get a complete bolt. That’s why I recommend the origin and you can get them for under a grand.

Yes, but a short action is just going to be a stepping stone for OP anyway. He can't even build an optimal SAUM or 6.5 PRC on it. If he hasn't bought an action or rifle yet, his best move might be to trade his short action chassis for a long action chassis.

[9mmrevolver]

I have one. Not impressed. I chased finding a good load for months. Got 1 powder/bullet combo to about an inch at 100. The drop is more than I expected also. Haven’t been past 300 with it mainly becuase I have a bad taste in my mouth over it.

Gotta agree with Randall. 338 is where it’s at for long range. 1k to 1 mile. Mine is a standard lapua but would have went ackley had I known it was an option. I love the lapua.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

Yes, I know about the controversy over Kiff, some people hate him, others stick with him...the only reason I feel comfortable with them is knowing that Redding uses their reamers. This is not to say that there are not other actions and reamers that will match or even work correctly together, for those that do want to chamber their own. Redding are commonly available most everywhere, and I have a set for the 6.5 Creedmoor, but not a deal breaker to change calipers for me.

Also, I now realize is talking this out that what I really wanted to understand is how I could reuse my short action AICS chassis with something appropriate to shoot ELR. At least I don't have plans to shoot 100-200, mainly because what I have in 308 semi-auto works fine, I could even convert one to 6.5 Creedmoor semi-auto if I wanted. I realize I wouldn't get 2000 yards out of it, but I wouldn't use it for that, only punching paper or hunting, and I don't have much time to hunt, so buying meat is more practical.

Primarily I would like to reuse a short action AICS chassis I have already. If I had to buy another stock/chassis, I might go with 338M. In realizing this short/long action dilemma, maybe more what I'm pondering is which of the following caliper would be best choice for ELR?

6.5 SAUM
7 SAUM
7 WSM

Surely one of those would be better than the 224 Valkyrie, other than recoil.

Any other recomendations of a short action caliper for ELR?

Any short action cartridge will work fine for 100-200 yards.
There is no short action cartridge that is a legitimately good 2000yd rifle.

There are many that will work poorly that people use anyways just like how people use harbor freight tools or bald tires.
Just because something works does NOT mean it works GOOD.

The SAUMs and WSMs will have very short (700-900 rounds peak accuracy) barrel life but would certainly be better than a 224 valkrie if you are hell bent on wasting money to try to save money.

[liber]

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[liber]

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[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by kriller134

If you’re serious about long range shooting, you need to get on sniper’s hide and start doing research. No offense, but you’re so far off the mark by even remotely considering a 22 caliber for ELR. This is a very expensive game you’re getting into, so unless you like wasting ammo, get the right tool for the job.

I think it was a Typer's Hide video that started this 22 for ELR thread and it's spillover into the neighboring threads.

My take on the Typer's Hide is it's an echo chamber for lil frankie and his paid vendors. He's behind the curve on most things ELR and reinvents things that a few years earlier he claimed couldn't be done or were false. You just don't see many serious people posting there for long because they threaten frankie.

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Any short action cartridge will work fine for 100-200 yards.
There is no short action cartridge that is a legitimately good 2000yd rifle.

The SAUMs and WSMs will have very short (700-900 rounds peak accuracy) barrel life but would certainly be better than a 224 valkrie if you are hell bent on wasting money to try to save money.

700-900 rounds is a pretty good barrel life in my current world. My take on barrel life is if you hold everything else constant, it might go half of what is popular perception or half again that. By the time a barrel is opening up at 100 yards, it's been done for ELR for awhile. A worn throat that doesn't engrave consistently is death to BC consistency, but it may still group at 100 yards. The velocity spreads also open up before the 100 yard accuracy does. After you've been through the cycle a few times you'll also pick up on when the no calls or wounded ducks start increasing.

A 7wsm went 7/10 and won the second URSA match. That score went unmatched for years.

I watched a straight 284 go 3/10 twice on the URSA range on a target that was ~60% of the URSA target size in after lunch 6-10 mph winds.

I've used a 7/300wsm to practice with at 2200 yards for years. On the same course, it consistently runs awkwardly close to guns and shooters that have won the 3k match. The first barrel went 900 rounds with serious abuse and I'm retiring the current one at 1200.

If you have regular access to a suitable range, a practice rifle isn't a bad idea. A second ELR rifle in general isn't a bad idea because it'll give you something to shoot while you're rebarreling the other one. There are arguments for 2 similar rifles, but I prefer to stager the components. The wsm uses H4831 which seems to be easier to find more often than H4350 or H1000. I also think that making practice realistic, but more challenging than match conditions is a good idea.

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by liber

Yes, ultimately this may be the best thing to do and just get another barrel and bolt and just go with Lapua 338M.

So you're going to buy a lathe and mill, tool them up, build a shop, and learn how to use them to build precision rifles, just to build 1 rifle?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by ShaunBrady

So you're going to buy a lathe and mill, tool them up, build a shop, and learn how to use them to build precision rifles, just to build 1 rifle?

He can't pass a background check so he needs to the shop to build his own receiver.

[liber]

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[ShaunBrady]

My intended point was save the parts. After the first one, it's unlikely you'll only build 1 rifle. It's a slippery slope and factory barrels really lose their luster after your first custom.

I'll be at Lynn's match. Sunday only though. I'm already qualified for the 3K. 3 times, twice with a factory 300 PRC RPR. The gun I'll actually shoot will be a recent build on an action I bought cheap 10 years ago when I was just starting hobby precision rifle gunsmithing.

[smoothy8500]

Originally Posted by liber

.... let's let this thread die a quick death and forget it was ever created.

As slow as this section is, it'll be up for quite a while.....

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by liber

can't even pass a background check...yeah, that's it!

Can't pass if you don't try and since you will not try, you definitely can't pass.

Originally Posted by liber

the right to manufacture one myself, and that would require I purchase through an FFL which places me in the State database.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by ShaunBrady

My intended point was save the parts. After the first one, it's unlikely you'll only build 1 rifle. It's a slippery slope and factory barrels really lose their luster after your first custom.

I'll be at Lynn's match. Sunday only though. I'm already qualified for the 3K. 3 times, twice with a factory 300 PRC RPR. The gun I'll actually shoot will be a recent build on an action I bought cheap 10 years ago when I was just starting hobby precision rifle gunsmithing.

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

A normal URSA match starts at around 2000 yards. You need 3/10 in the qualifying round to shoot the 2k match. If 2 or more shooters go 4/10 in the actual 2k match, the match goes to 2500 yards and no points are carried forward. If an individual shooter gets 5/10, they go into the URSA records with a shooter point. 5/10 also qualifies them for the annual 3k match.

The 3k match is similar to a regular monthly match, except it skips the qualifying and starts at 2500 yards. The 3k is held on Sunday. The Saturday before is a last chance qualifier. There is no guarantee the match will go to 3K and a couple years ago it was won with 2 hits at 2500 yards with a 26" 300 PRC. You take what the course and conditions will give and not everybody shoots in the same conditions.

That's the procedural explanation.

[ShaunBrady]

Originally Posted by sigstroker

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

The technical explanation is the subsonic thing is a myth with some basis in fact. It's grossly overstated on the interweb.

There are many bullets that are useless by the time they're subsonic. Sometimes it's because the BC variations are so high, sometimes it's because they won't transition. Some bullets will transition with remarkably low stability factors and some won't settle down regardless of how fast you spin them.

If you're competing on X count at 1000 yards and a 200 point clean is required just to make that evaluation, you don't want to be competing against supersonic loads with subsonic ones. There are limits even with that though. Sometimes cartridge requirements, weight limits, or long strings in the COF set boundaries on how much ballistic performance is available before other issues become a larger problem.

The ELR end game usually isn't finished at Mach 1. This has been known a long time. The 175smk was developed in the mid '90s by Sierra and the Military to address the problems with the 168smk. The 77smk is similar. If you want to test this idea, the easiest way to do it is with those bullets from a 223 or 308 shot far enough to give a velocity below 900 fps. It's straight forward to do, doesn't require expensive optics and works well on silhouette sized targets. In the video that started this thread, Frankie was basically doing a similar demonstration but presenting it as a magical property of the 224V that he'd just discovered. It requires a $3400 scope and great conditions though.

The 26" RPR in 300 PRC was just subsonic at 2050 yards for that day's course conditions (~4000' DA). I'm planning on using a 32" 300 Lapua for the 3K match. Starting the same bullet out 260 fps faster only has another 75 fps left at 2500 yards. It also cuts the barrel life in half.

[liber]

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[liber]

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[RideWest]

Originally Posted by waveslayer

The biggest issues the 224 had was bad ammo that was recalled, and subpar performance in regards to accuracy.

Yes you can hit at 2100 yds, saw that on the Hide and Frank is now pushing it big time.

There are tools that will work and the right tools make it that much easier. Is it the right tool for ELR ? No, but anything can hit at 2100 yards.... I'd prefer a 300 Norma, 33XC or maybe my .338 Norma AI, but my Grendel isn't my first choice.

For an all around plinking gun, they are great, but again it's who builds the AR. I've seen guys struggle to get there 224 to group worth a Biden Supporter. A total joke of performance, while my Grendel made some amazing groups as low as thr atrump employment numbers

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

Just keep in mind Frank didn’t shoot 2000 yards with a Valkyrie at sea level.

The Valkyrie is a good practice tool out to about 1100 yards, depending on barrel length and environmental conditions. But I agree it’s not the right choice for ELR at a mile plus.

[waveslayer]

Originally Posted by RideWest

Just keep in mind Frank didn’t shoot 2000 yards with a Valkyrie at sea level.



The Valkyrie is a good practice tool out to about 1100 yards, depending on barrel length and environmental conditions. But I agree it’s not the right choice for ELR at a mile plus.

Correct, never said Frank shot at 2000. Others shot those diatances. He's pushing his love for that round. It will change and so will the rounds people gravitate to.





My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[LynnJr]

Wow this thread took a dive.
The 224 diameter bullet in any chambering is to hard to spot your misses past a mile in sand so its useless in the hard dirt we shoot in above upperlake. And yes I own a 22-06.

On snipers hide there are around 8 posters that are great reloaders shooters and know what they are talking about and only 3 of them post using there real names.

Pacific Tool makes more gun parts and reamers than all the suppliers listed on typershide combined. The staff consists mainly of college students earning some cash with zero gun knowledge at all.
This means if you dont know what you want have your gunsmith order it for you.
I buy from them all the time and sometimes you have to wait on what some would consider easy to make parts.
The typershide in-crowd can't say the truth because lil frank will ban anyone for saying anything about any of his sponsors.
There is a gunsmith who advertises there who no longer buys from pacific tool claiming he trues up remington actions then uses the original bolt without bushing it. He actually posted to me that sloppy bolts shoot good.
As typershide is a money generating machine nobody wants to hurt potential clients feelings so most of the big names simply dont/refuse to post.
If you think about most of the chassis rifles on that forum they are just an action with a aftermarket barrel and 2 bolts holding them to the chassis.
Most are not bedded the triggers are not timed and tracking isnt even heard of. Its wow thats some nice cerakote and those rings have 12 screws so thats a tough rifle.
Every gun doesnt have to be a target gun and the crowd over there like what they like so why rock the boat.
The disinformation they spread is amongst themselves for the most part so no harm no foul.