Duty calibers.

[ap3572001]

According to what I read and hear , bullet technology made 9mm as good as anything else, higher magazine capacity , easier for most people to shoot faster and that shot placement is the key. I cant argue with that.

Statements like , " With 9mm, I can dump half a magazine really quickly " and " With some 9mm guns you can have 20 + rounds in the gun" are heard all the time. I cant argue with that either.

Some people make it sound like it really doesn't matter what you hit the threat with.

In situations where "dumping" half a magazine is not option , where you will only have a chance to fire one or two rounds, does it matter what you hit your threat with ? To me it does.

Any thoughts on this?

[SoCalDep]

It matters less what than where.

[ap3572001]

Originally Posted by SoCalDep

It matters less what than where.

Sure. I got that . I know the concept that a good hit with a .22 is way better then a miss with a .44

But to say that 147JHP 9mm with have the same effect as a 230JHP 45 acp is a bit strange. Don't You think?

[71MUSTY]

The development of modern Defense ammo has done wonders for the stopping power of 9mm. So if 9mm defense loads makes 9mm as good as traditional 38 or 40, what does 38 Defense loads and 40 defense loads do?? Not to mention 10mm Defense loads. Obviously technology improved all the rounds.

You don't really need 20 round mags if the first one or two shots do the job.

Most of the argument for 9mm is about Government saving training costs.

Bottom line is carry what you like but train and then train some more.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Then there’s this….. .45ACP didn’t do well for this guy and with several well placed hits. So it does support the argument that more rounds for duty use is better….


I always keep coming back to this video because it speaks volumes. Nobody can say, he “shoulda had better shot placement.” Well, the heart, lungs and kidney are pretty darn well placed shots…. It still didn’t work right away on stopping the bad guy.



Try the link if the one above doesn’t work….

https://youtu.be/pdjcYjSsIok

[1911su16b870]

Video link? Looking forward to watching it.

What we can not control is the mental preparation and toughness of the adversary. Miami showed that. Sometimes we may need to disrupt the CNS to get stoppages.

[1911su16b870]

My personal opinion is if I need to hit someone, I would like to hit them in the right spot as hard as humanly possible. So...

Pistol - 45ACP (450 ft-lbs) is fine for me vs. 9mm (300 ft-lbs). On body. ("put holes into people")

Rifle - 223/556 (16-inch barrel 1250 ft-lbs) and 28 rounds - Speed/Accuracy ("put holes through people")

Shotgun - depending on the load (1450 to 3000 ft-lbs) - Speed/Power ("with the correct load [/range] will take pieces of people away from them")

...with props to Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch on the parenthesized quotes

[stormvet]

Time’s certainly have changed, we went from engage the thread and evaluate, if need be reengage. To dump your whole mag and then evaluate.

[chsk9]

I shot 9mm better than 45ACP. I also watched numerous smaller individuals and females who had difficulty qualifying with the 45ACP (Glock 21) versus the 9mm (Glock17).

[1911su16b870]

Originally Posted by chsk9

I shot 9mm better than 45ACP. I also watched numerous smaller individuals and females who had difficulty qualifying with the 45ACP (Glock 21) versus the 9mm (Glock17).

^ Yes! I also see the same.

[oddjob]

I've also heard with modern technology the 9mm is a decent round. If the same technology is applied to a 45 ACP round I would think the 45 ACP is still a better round.

I'm retired and carry a 9mm.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by 1911su16b870

Video link? Looking forward to watching it.

If you’re referring to the video I posted in post #5, the link has been there all along. Click it.

If you weren’t talking about that, then please disregard this message.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

If you’re referring to the video I posted in post #5, the link has been there all along. Click it.

If you weren’t talking about that, then please disregard this message.

Itza no worky. And hasn't for me since you posted it.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Itza no worky. And hasn't for me since you posted it.

Hmmm, well that suxs. Here’s the direct link and thanks for letting me know….
You might have to cut and paste.

https://youtu.be/pdjcYjSsIok

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Hmmm, well that suxs. Here’s the direct link and thanks for letting me know….
You might have to cut and paste.

https://youtu.be/pdjcYjSsIok

Thanks, works fine using direct link. Saw it before, but makes clear that there ain't no such thing as "one size fits all", when it comes to fight stopping. Without a central nervous system denial of target.

[1911su16b870]

Thank you brother...I missed the direct link before. Yes I have seen that and resemble the officer in that link...

5 x 28 AR = 140
5 x 13 + 1 G21 = 66
B/U 1 x 12 + 1 = 13

=219 and not including the 12G in the rack with (4+6) 10 and 20 slugs in my patrol bag = 30...

[Oneaudiopro]

I think the general consensus for most people is 9mm has less recoil, holds more rounds, and has good stopping capability with the proper ammo and shot placement. Carry and shoot what you're most comfortable with.

[micro911]

Not even the best premium quality ammunition works perfectly every time. I saw one 9mm bullet kill a suspect, and saw another suspect survived with more than 10 shots from the same type of bullets. I saw a Ranger XST 45 bullet go through the heart and exit the body without expanding at all with no damage to the bullet.

Now I carry a Glock 17 almost exclusively, only because I can carry 18 rounds without the need for extra magazines like 1911 type 45 caliber pistols.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Thanks, works fine using direct link. Saw it before, but makes clear that there ain't no such thing as "one size fits all", when it comes to fight stopping. Without a central nervous system denial of target.

Yup. That?s my point. It doesn?t matter between 9mm, 40 or 45. All good if you take out the CNS component, or all POOR if you miss the CNS component.

Besides, everybody knows that .357Sig is the exception to that rule!

[Che762x39]

Originally Posted by chsk9

I shot 9mm better than 45ACP. I also watched numerous smaller individuals and females who had difficulty qualifying with the 45ACP (Glock 21) versus the 9mm (Glock17).

In my day it was 357 Magnum versus 38 Special.

[Enzo rules]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Yup. That?s my point. It doesn?t matter between 9mm, 40 or 45. All good if you take out the CNS component, or all POOR if you miss the CNS component.

Besides, everybody knows that .357Sig is the exception to that rule!

Trailerpark, I carried a 229 in 357Sig. for around 5 years. I don?t remember the specs on the issued ammo other than it was Ranger brand. I never had an issue with the ammo and shot very well with it. What were/are the issues with 357Sig?

Also I?ve carried all the basics 357, 9, 40, 45 and 357Sig and I liked the 357Sig the best.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by Enzo rules

What were/are the issues with 357Sig?

None whatsoever! .357Sig absolutely P E R F O R M S !!!

Originally Posted by Enzo rules[/QUOTE

Also I’ve carried all the basics 357, 9, 40, 45 and 357Sig and I liked the 357Sig the best.

Can’t argue with that either. .357Sig is my favorite 2-legged predator defensive round.

[teeemothy]

Issued .357 Sig when I first was sworn in, then agency changed to 9mm about a year or two later.

.357 Sig was great, but I believe like others mentioned the cost and overall lowest common denominator in training takes precedence.

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

None whatsoever! .357Sig absolutely P E R F O R M S !!!

Also I?ve carried all the basics 357, 9, 40, 45 and 357Sig and I liked the 357Sig the best.

Can?t argue with that either. .357Sig is my favorite 2-legged predator defensive round.

[/QUOTE]

[Enzo rules]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

None whatsoever! .357Sig absolutely P E R F O R M S !!!

Also I?ve carried all the basics 357, 9, 40, 45 and 357Sig and I liked the 357Sig the best.

Can?t argue with that either. .357Sig is my favorite 2-legged predator defensive round.

[/QUOTE]

Good. I thought there was maybe some bad data or other issues with the round that I was not aware of. Thanks Trailerpark.

[Enzo rules]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

None whatsoever! .357Sig absolutely P E R F O R M S !!!

Also I?ve carried all the basics 357, 9, 40, 45 and 357Sig and I liked the 357Sig the best.

Can?t argue with that either. .357Sig is my favorite 2-legged predator defensive round.

[/QUOTE]

Good, I thought there may be bad data or other info I was not aware of. Thanks Trailerpark.

[Ron-Solo]

Originally Posted by oddjob

I've also heard with modern technology the 9mm is a decent round. If the same technology is applied to a 45 ACP round I would think the 45 ACP is still a better round.

I'm retired and carry a 9mm.

I carry 147gr 9mm JHP in my carry guns. I’m retired and can carry anything I want. I like the 9mm because I shoot it well, and it has very good ballistics. The .40 was created for a problem that really didn?t exist. The weight difference between a 147gr 9mm and a 180gr .40 is minimal, but the 9mm is usually traveling a lot faster.

The .45 is still a great round although its 230gr slug is traveling a lot slower. But, old, fat, and slow can still be effective. Many of us old timers can relate to that.

Originally Posted by ap3572001

But to say that 147JHP 9mm with have the same effect as a 230JHP 45 acp is a bit strange. Don't You think?

Not really, because of the differences in velocity also has a major impact on effectiveness.


For concealed carry, many .45s that are small enough to conceal can be a bit snappy or unpleasant to shoot. The small micro .380 pistols like the LCP can also be a bit snappy and unpleasant to shoot a lot and .380 definitely isn?t a big round.

Like others have said, carry and use what you can shoot proficiently. Magazine dumps show lack of control and skill under most circumstances. The ?double tap? is still a good mindset.