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  #1  
Old 01-21-2023, 8:01 PM
The Hamsterball The Hamsterball is offline
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Default Strange Phenomena/Accuracy with Co-witness sights mixed with Red/Green Dot

Hello,

I have figured out some sort of trick at the firing range.

Here is what I am experiencing, maybe someone could point out what is happening.

Okay. So my red dot/green dot is an MP-100 factory equipped on a Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 22 LR Rifle.

What was bothering me is that the rifle came with no sights of course, as they usually don't with red dots.

When I first got the rifle, it would only hit spot on at 24.5 meters/yards (the maximum range at the range I go to).

Anything 5-10 meters closer (usually 10 meters), the rounds would hit below the middle of the target circle.

Another note, when I had zero'd out the red/green dot originally, I matched the factory setting of 25 meters. Since this would allow adjusting to 25, 50, 75, and 100 meters with only a one-click adjustment on the top knob.

Of course, this was happening due to the lack of recoil effect at 10 meters vs the zero'd out red/green dot at 25 meters per factory adjustment settings.

This was extremely annoying. So I googled about co-witness sights.
I installed some $25 Amazon SOUFORCE sights.
IN FRONT of the optic as far apart as possible, with space between them.

I didn't want to put the front sight in front of the optic for preferential reasons.
People have said in other parts of this forum that this is not ideal.

However
Please see target shots at 24.5 meters, 10 meters, 7 meters as pictured in this google drive folder:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...usp=share_link


The green targets are at 10 meters/yards
.
Also keep in mind, For orange and green target paper, the middle circle is always used for pistol rounds at 10 meters.
This is why there are outlier rounds all over the target and not hitting the center circle on the paper


Back to my original question
I have found a trick. If you lean a little to the left (I'm right handed and wear glasses for nearsightedness) of the optic.
At 5-15 meters/yards, you can align the red/green dot to sit right on the middle of the backup sight and platform of the sight circles.

Everywhere I'm reading is saying this is a false way to tell you that the red dot is working
BUT WHEN YOU DO THIS , the shot goes through and hits the target circle exactly at 5-15 meters/yards.
Where as before, without co-witness sights, the shots would hit below the target circle.

No, I am not better at firing paper targets

Why is this happening?

Please advise. I'm highly curious.
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  #2  
Old 01-23-2023, 3:08 PM
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1) those targets are all over the place, there is nothing anyone can infer from that other than you need more trigger time.
2) the phenomenon you describe of hitting low makes perfect sense. Learn the concept of height-over-bore and how it affects zero. Your red dot is about 3.5 inches above boreline. So if you put a paper target 1inch in front of your muzzle and aimed at a target , you would hit 3.5 inches low. Move the target out 10 yards, it would be only 3 inches low, etc. Until you get to 25 yds (which is what you zero’ed at) and the trajectory matches the aim point. That what zero means.
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  #3  
Old 01-23-2023, 3:17 PM
The Hamsterball The Hamsterball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
1) those targets are all over the place, there is nothing anyone can infer from that other than you need more trigger time.
2) the phenomenon you describe of hitting low makes perfect sense. Learn the concept of height-over-bore and how it affects zero. Your red dot is about 3.5 inches above boreline. So if you put a paper target 1inch in front of your muzzle and aimed at a target , you would hit 3.5 inches low. Move the target out 10 yards, it would be only 3 inches low, etc. Until you get to 25 yds (which is what you zero’ed at) and the trajectory matches the aim point. That what zero means.
Ahh.. I see.

That's kind of what I had thought.
Red dot is only effective at the distance it is set/zero'd out to.

The shots are probably not that great.
I usually shoot rapidly for groupings.

When I zero'd out, I shot very slowly.

Probably a good idea to have installed the manual sights for situations where target is not at 25 meters.

Thanks
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  #4  
Old 01-23-2023, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hamsterball View Post
Ahh.. I see.

That's kind of what I had thought.
Red dot is only effective at the distance it is set/zero'd out to.

The shots are probably not that great.
I usually shoot rapidly for groupings.

When I zero'd out, I shot very slowly.

Probably a good idea to have installed the manual sights for situations where target is not at 25 meters.

Thanks
Get more training… Take classes… You are getting stuff wrong.
  • Red dots are effective even at distances they are not zeroed for
  • You shoot slowly when zeroing - but you still cannot maintain a ragged hole using a rifle at a very close distance
  • Why install iron sights? Going back to the 1st point…


_

Last edited by rodralig; 01-23-2023 at 7:47 PM..
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  #5  
Old 01-23-2023, 8:12 PM
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Ok I have a bit more time to unpack everything you were trying to say. If I can understand your post, you are saying that your iron sights are zero'ed at 25, and at shorter distances your are hitting low. As explained previously, that's supposed to happen.

Quote:
BUT WHEN YOU DO THIS , the shot goes through and hits the target circle exactly at 5-15 meters/yards.
Where as before, without co-witness sights, the shots would hit below the target circle.
But what you are also saying is that using the red dot and moving your head slightly, your POI matches POA exactly at shorter distances, even though they are co-witnessed and thus your hits should be low.

A few thoughts about that.

1) There is nothing "exactly" about your shooting. I'm not criticizing your accuracy, but those impacts are all over the place. You didn't mark off any targets so which ones are at 10, 15, etc? Paper is cheap, if you want people to analyze your shots, devote a single sheet to a single group and a single distance.

2) Yes, that was rapid fire shooting, not slow precision shooting. Which again, tells us nothing about the accuracy of your sighting method, only how fast you can pull a trigger. Go slow before you go fast.

3) Are you sure the red dot and iron sights are both zero'ed to 25? A 5" grouping with flyers isn't a reliable indicator.

4) You are probably experiencing parallax. It sounds like you've never looked through a magnified rifle scope. But if you have the rifle locked in place and looked through the scope at a nearby object, if you move your head around then the crosshair would also move around. Even though the rifle (and thus scope) is completely stationary. That's parallax.

Parallax for shooting is not good. (it's great for astronomy though) One of the fundamentals of shooting is a good cheek weld. That's because you want your head and eyes to be in the same exact place behind the sights every time. Not a bit to the left sometimes, and a bit to the right sometimes. The same spot, every time. Precision comes from consistency.

5) Don't bother setting one set of sights for 25 and another for shorter. What would be the benefit? You're not shooting for precision, otherwise you'd use a different gun, different ammo, and shoot much, much slower. And rapid fire - it's all in an approximate cluster anyway, what difference would dropping the POA 1 inch make? Finally, look up the ballistics of .22....With a 25 yd zero, at 50 you'd be 0.75 inches high, and at 75 you'd be back to 0.1 inch low. For most people, a 0.75" error at 50 yds is within their margin of skill.

5a) Some people do have different optics for different distances, but those are much greater distances and uses. I have scoped rifles with offset iron sights (they're called "iron sights" not "manual sights") because the scope is for long distances and the sights are set for battlesight zero. Or with the same rifle, I just like to get in some practice on iron sights at longer distances, and the scope helps me spot. But those are specific uses and each sight serves a different purpose and are set for different distances. Setting one for 10 and another for 25 is redundant.

6) I'd suggest getting rid of one or the other. For most people the purpose of 2 sets is if one fails they can use the other with minimal interruption. You're not going to war. If one breaks, you just pack up your stuff. Your position is not going to be overrun.
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  #6  
Old 01-24-2023, 9:28 PM
The Hamsterball The Hamsterball is offline
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Well, there was one time.

I went to the range. Just had cleaned up the rifle up, disassembled it, serviced it, cleaned it, lubed it.

Went to the range a few days later with a friend.
It was busy.
We only had 40 minutes to get some rounds in before closing time.

BAM!
There was bore cleaner on my optics lenses, both sides.

All I had was a butt wipe in my back pocket.
So I used that to clean the lenses.
Then I wiped what I could with my sweatshirt.

We lost 5 minutes of range time right there.
And the lens still had some spots.


Okay more to the point.
The "iron sights" can still be used at 25 meters.
However, the circle that you see the platform with the shot location on the sight in the front.
At 25 meters, the middle black circle on the target paper, is extremely small.

It is extremely difficult to use the iron sight at 25 meters, because you can barely see the target circle in the middle of the target. The point of the middle.

But with the red/green dot at 25 meters, you can adjust it to be smaller for hitting the target.

Also the recoil isn't exactly the same with iron sights.
Honestly, I just left them as they came from the box.
Had I taken one accuracy shot per target circle at 5-15 meters with just iron sights, it would hit each of the 5 circles in the middle.

I mean. Also. The ranges here don't go past 25 meters.
I think also in California, as I thought this was a California firearm forum, I had assumed magnifying scopes were illegal.

Also if I go to Piru for the "tactical" version of the precision rifle matches, where targets are much closer than the normal precision rifle matches (which could be 1,000 meters), I wouldn't be able to participate in the 1,000 meter matches.

I understand you are saying the red dot is fine any distance.
Like the 75 meters for example.
But that requires judging the distance and recoil at the distance, and skills I don't have.

I will go the range and attempt to buy an extra target paper piece for $1.50.
Then I will come back with smaller groupings.
Possibly 10 rounds each target circle.
Top two for 25 meters with red dot.
Bottom two for 10 meters with "iron sights".

Oh yeah, as I've mentioned.
Middle is always for pistol at 10 meters. For practicing dual-firearm, triple-firearm matches at Piru. I think they said "3 gun matches". Well, I only have two guns.
Hopefully they let me join the "3 gun" match with just two guns.

The other shots that are not on circles are most likely pistol rounds.

Oh.
I know I'm not going to war.
But I like theorizing and getting the thing I bought for so much money to serve it's "normal" purpose as intended.

Ehh.. not like I'm gonna use it anyway ever.
It's just to make it convenient at the range and matches.
Like what I'm imagining is that if it looks like a Piru target is less than 25 meters, I can quickly just use the iron sights.
If it is about 25 meters away, quickly use the red dot.
This is just for my accuracy theory experiments.
I like setting this thing up the way I think it should work.

I will have to note down the recoil MOA you mentioned for 50, 75, and 100 meters. (I think this MP-100 max is 100 meters).
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  #7  
Old 01-24-2023, 10:04 PM
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height over bore.
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  #8  
Old 01-24-2023, 10:54 PM
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Wow what a bunch of garbage text. Stop shooting and get some formal instruction.
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  #9  
Old 01-24-2023, 10:56 PM
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I could go through this line by line to correct you, but in short:

Forget everything you think you know. It's wrong. The theory, the practice, the terms, the cleaning procedures, the definitions, the laws, everything.

Go to an Appleseed event

Get more trigger time.

Read more.

Nobody is an expert at the beginning; everyone starts somewhere. You are at the very, very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hamsterball View Post
Well, there was one time.

I went to the range. Just had cleaned up the rifle up, disassembled it, serviced it, cleaned it, lubed it.

Went to the range a few days later with a friend.
It was busy.
We only had 40 minutes to get some rounds in before closing time.

BAM!
There was bore cleaner on my optics lenses, both sides.

All I had was a butt wipe in my back pocket.
So I used that to clean the lenses.
Then I wiped what I could with my sweatshirt.

We lost 5 minutes of range time right there.
And the lens still had some spots.


Okay more to the point.
The "iron sights" can still be used at 25 meters.
However, the circle that you see the platform with the shot location on the sight in the front.
At 25 meters, the middle black circle on the target paper, is extremely small.

It is extremely difficult to use the iron sight at 25 meters, because you can barely see the target circle in the middle of the target. The point of the middle.

But with the red/green dot at 25 meters, you can adjust it to be smaller for hitting the target.

Also the recoil isn't exactly the same with iron sights.
Honestly, I just left them as they came from the box.
Had I taken one accuracy shot per target circle at 5-15 meters with just iron sights, it would hit each of the 5 circles in the middle.

I mean. Also. The ranges here don't go past 25 meters.
I think also in California, as I thought this was a California firearm forum, I had assumed magnifying scopes were illegal.

Also if I go to Piru for the "tactical" version of the precision rifle matches, where targets are much closer than the normal precision rifle matches (which could be 1,000 meters), I wouldn't be able to participate in the 1,000 meter matches.

I understand you are saying the red dot is fine any distance.
Like the 75 meters for example.
But that requires judging the distance and recoil at the distance, and skills I don't have.

I will go the range and attempt to buy an extra target paper piece for $1.50.
Then I will come back with smaller groupings.
Possibly 10 rounds each target circle.
Top two for 25 meters with red dot.
Bottom two for 10 meters with "iron sights".

Oh yeah, as I've mentioned.
Middle is always for pistol at 10 meters. For practicing dual-firearm, triple-firearm matches at Piru. I think they said "3 gun matches". Well, I only have two guns.
Hopefully they let me join the "3 gun" match with just two guns.

The other shots that are not on circles are most likely pistol rounds.

Oh.
I know I'm not going to war.
But I like theorizing and getting the thing I bought for so much money to serve it's "normal" purpose as intended.

Ehh.. not like I'm gonna use it anyway ever.
It's just to make it convenient at the range and matches.
Like what I'm imagining is that if it looks like a Piru target is less than 25 meters, I can quickly just use the iron sights.
If it is about 25 meters away, quickly use the red dot.
This is just for my accuracy theory experiments.
I like setting this thing up the way I think it should work.

I will have to note down the recoil MOA you mentioned for 50, 75, and 100 meters. (I think this MP-100 max is 100 meters).
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  #10  
Old 01-25-2023, 8:59 AM
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I suggest some formal, professional instruction. Everything you've described is based on wrong assumptions. In order to improve and maximize the potential of your equipment, you have to know what it's doing and how you can utilize it. You also need to learn fundamental marksmanshnip skills so that you can begin diagnosing where you need improvement. What you're observing from the targets are inconsistencies in your shooting skills and a good instructor can help you identify ways to improve and become more consistent.
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Old 01-25-2023, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post
I suggest some formal, professional instruction. Everything you've described is based on wrong assumptions. In order to improve and maximize the potential of your equipment, you have to know what it's doing and how you can utilize it. You also need to learn fundamental marksmanshnip skills so that you can begin diagnosing where you need improvement. What you're observing from the targets are inconsistencies in your shooting skills and a good instructor can help you identify ways to improve and become more consistent.
I have to google places the provide the right type of training for this rifle.

I am in Orange County, CA.

The only training I got were short quick 1-2 minute instruction from firing range staff a few times for my original first time there, and when I put the co-witness sights.

I don't know if this is a rifle that is used for long range or if it's best suited for 100 meters or less.
I have seen people on YouTube put scopes on it in other states.

Should I go for a training academy that focuses on tactical situations?
Or like an academy that focuses on marksmanship?

Is there any training center that focuses on training for Piru competitions?
When I called CTA, they said just start going to events on Practiscore and build your confidence.

Thanks for the suggestion.
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Old 01-25-2023, 9:06 PM
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Scopes are not illegal in California (Gavin would be glad to make them illegal tho).

I concur with Kcheung2 Project Appleseed is what you need to go to. An intense weekend of formal rifle instruction. It would be very enlightening for you. There are also books about marksmanship out there...they would be really good for you. Youtube - there is good and bad out there in YouTube land, and you won't be able to critically analyze what is real and what is garbage.
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Old 01-26-2023, 9:42 AM
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An AR pattern .22lr rifle is generally not used for competition or accuracy (not that they're not capable) but more for plinking. Even so it should still be accurate enough for you to gauge your shooting skills. As suggested, Project Appleseen is a good starting point. Their are a large number of different competition disciplines you can try, so which kind of training you take will depend largely on where your interest lays. Regardless, start at least on first developing your marksmanship before moving on to more specific types of training (tactical vs. competition...etc.)
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Old 01-26-2023, 5:55 PM
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Don't be so hard on the OP...
Sighting in a rifle off-hand, without a rest, is not gonna give you decent "groups"
even if you are Quigley.
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Old 01-26-2023, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCCW View Post
Don't be so hard on the OP...
Sighting in a rifle off-hand, without a rest, is not gonna give you decent "groups"
even if you are Quigley.
Thanks.
I don't feel the posters were hard on me.
Very constructive actually.

To be fair.
I did use a rest.

I have an AR-15 locked box. The range I go to has a platform/table in front of the shooting target position area.

So what I did was get a chair. Set it in front of my box.
Then I took my rifle with top knob set to 25 meters.
Rested my front hand on the box in a sitting position.

I took one shot. Compared it to the red dot.
Adjusted either left or right to start out with. Made it match.
I don't remember how it was factory.

Once the 3rd or 4th shot hit in line, I moved to the top bottom adjustment.
Actually, for some reason the 5th or 6th shot, it was hitting low.
So I clicked the knob on top and made it match the center.

Then I finished the mag and saw they hit the center of the target at 25 meters.
Actually it was 24.5 meters, since the range I go to slants the target paper exactly at 25 meters.

Then I did a whole 10-round mag on a second circle. Bam.
Sitting posture with rest on AR-15 box.. mostly small grouping on center.

I looked recently at some videos.
Some people use mathematics and angular measurement to set their zeros.
I didn't do that.
Also, the range would not have allowed me to start off by disassembling my stock and looking through the bore for the first setting and matching bore to center circle.

I would say it does hit well at 25 meters.
The post above that indicates the variance at 50, 75, and 100 meters is quite useful.

Of course, if the target is any of those distances, and you don't care about hitting the target spot on (like if it was used in a self-defense situation), it would still hit with a 3"-6" variance given my abilities.

But I think for my convenience, and watching the particular match videos I have seen for the "tactical" variant of Piru rifle matches:
I need that ability to quickly look at the iron sights when I figure the target object is not 25 meters away.

If the target is far enough away to look like the red dot will hit it spot on, then I use the red dot, with those measurements in mind.

Someone e-mailed me and let me know which particular rifle matches are set this way.
I don't feel I would like to do the 1,000 meter target hitting match.
It doesn't really feel like it interests me.

Thanks all for your input and suggestions.
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Old 01-29-2023, 4:21 PM
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Default Red/Green Dot Adjustments

Hello,

I went back and attempted to check the settings of the adjustments I originally did.

Now I'm not using a real rest. Just my AR-15 Box with my front barrel hand resting on the box.

I think I have gotten worse at shooting in the past few weeks.
I adjusted the dot (as green) to be as small as possible.

No phalax.
As I breathed out the dot moved. I held my breath down at the bottom for each of the 24.5 meter rounds attached in the images to this post.

It was extremely difficult as I shot one round every 5-10 seconds.
The green dot was almost as big as the whole target circle.

As I'm examining the round hits on "1st 10 rounds 24.5 Meters Green Dot", it looks like it is lined up horizontally fine.
It almost looks as if it could be adjusted vertically better.

But then magically on, "Green Dot 24.5 Meters.jpeg" I took another 10 rounds on the bottom circles.
The one on the right with green dot has two shots that hit only one inch away from the exact center.

It would make no sense to adjust the top knob further vertically downwards, as this would lead to a spread below the circle per the MP-100 settings.

(I believe this is just a result of my lack of aiming and targeting ability).
So it might be set up just fine.

So then if you look at Iron Sights at 10 Yards.jpeg
That is me basically using the rest of the rounds in the box to fire shots on the 4 corner circles at 10 meters, using iron sights. Just for reference.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1st 10 rounds 24.5 Meters Green Dot.jpg (17.5 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Green Dot 24.5 Meters.jpg (15.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Iron Sights at 10 Yards.jpg (19.8 KB, 6 views)
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  #17  
Old 01-29-2023, 8:04 PM
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Really curious as to what you are calling recoil. Recoil doesn't change with sights and distance as you seem to think. Assuming the same caliber, it can change with bullet weight and velocity. Body positioning can affect felt recoil.

Just to establish a common starting point, recoil is the push felt in your shoulder when you shoot. In the .22lr, this is slight. If this sensation changes depending on your sights, it's because of the body positioning required for you to use the different sight. This is not an ideal setup.

If you can find someone experienced and local to you to shoot with, that might go a long way. As others have said, I think there are some basic misunderstandings that need to get straightened out.

.22lr is generally good for 100 yds. 1000 yd shooting will take something significantly bigger, better, and more expensive. I love .22's specifically because they are cheap, and recoil is almost nil. And the skills you learn at closer range can be applied to longer.

Keep at it. I do think it would behoove to find training or at least an experienced friend and pay for their range time in exchange for some supervision. Smarter, not harder.
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Old 01-29-2023, 8:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradecraft View Post
Wow what a bunch of garbage text. Stop shooting and get some formal instruction.
Come ON man.
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