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  #241  
Old 06-26-2019, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSammy View Post
Have you even read the PDF?



Try page 4 Section VII.
The way I reconcile that section with the law is that 1) FFL03+COE is not one of the exempt categories for the background check but 2) because they are exempt from having to purchase from a licensed ammo vendor they are exempt from the background check IF they use an alternate seller. Strictly speaking, and I don't doubt that they know the law, Michel et al. are not saying that FFL03+COE are exempt from the background check when buying from a licensed vendor. That last sentence sounds like that is what they are saying but they cite no law so I think it is just a case of poor wording.

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  #242  
Old 06-26-2019, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
you are correct in that if you do a face to face in a CA ammo store, you need to do the background check. What they were saying is that because you are exempt from the face to face you can (if someone will ship) have the ammo delivered to your door. Thus not having the face to face and the resulting background.
I'll have to watch it. Do they have it recorded and is there a link?

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  #243  
Old 06-26-2019, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
I'll have to watch it. Do they have it recorded and is there a link?

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the link is on the CPRA page
http://cc.readytalk.com/play?id=2u3524
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  #244  
Old 06-26-2019, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
The way I reconcile that section with the law is that 1) FFL03+COE is not one of the exempt categories for the background check but 2) because they are exempt from having to purchase from a licensed ammo vendor they are exempt from the background check IF they use an alternate seller. Strictly speaking, and I don't doubt that they know the law, Michel et al. are not saying that FFL03+COE are exempt from the background check when buying from a licensed vendor. That last sentence sounds like that is what they are saying but they cite no law so I think it is just a case of poor wording.

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what they are saying (and you can see this in the webinar materials starting at 22:52) is because FFL03+COE is exempt from face to face PC30312(c)(1-11) you can purchase ammo without the face to face from vendors outside of CA. However if you purchase ammo in CA face to face you need the ammo check. There (only my understanding) if a vendor outside of CA will ship to your door, you don't need a background check. However, if the vendor ships to another CA ammo vendor or FFL, and you pick up from them, you need the background check.

Not sure any of this will matter if vendors like TargetSportsUSA don't ship direct anymore. If that is the case, I can purchase from them (with the discount price) have it shipped to an FFL and pay the $1 background plus any handling fees. OR, start reloading

Last edited by NorthBay Shooter; 06-26-2019 at 4:24 PM..
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  #245  
Old 06-26-2019, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
what they are saying (and you can see this in the webinar materials starting at 22:52) is because FFL03+COE is exempt from face to face PC30312(c)(1-11) you can purchase ammo without the face to face from vendors outside of CA. However if you purchase ammo in CA face to face you need the ammo check. There (only my understanding) if a vendor outside of CA will ship to your door, you don't need a background check. However, if the vendor ships to another CA ammo vendor or FFL, and you pick up from them, you need the background check.

Not sure any of this will matter if vendors like TargetSportsUSA don't ship direct anymore. If that is the case, I can purchase from them (with the discount price) have it shipped to an FFL and pay the $1 background plus any handling fees. OR, start reloading
What you state here is my understanding, as well. Thanks for the link.



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  #246  
Old 06-27-2019, 5:42 AM
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So I placed and order yesterday (6/26) at 230. Just got tracking this morning. So it looks like target sports still ships to California.
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  #247  
Old 06-27-2019, 4:12 PM
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Does anybody have the link to an updated chart of which vendors are shipping ammo to CA FFL03 and COE holders?
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  #248  
Old 06-27-2019, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by daninger4995 View Post
Does anybody have the link to an updated chart of which vendors are shipping ammo to CA FFL03 and COE holders?
Seriously?

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1406001
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  #249  
Old 06-27-2019, 4:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefly416 View Post


Sorry I am in mobile and my search didn’t pull it up for some reason. Thank you.
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  #250  
Old 06-27-2019, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
the link is on the CPRA page
http://cc.readytalk.com/play?id=2u3524
Thanks for the link! Very enlightening.
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  #251  
Old 07-02-2019, 8:18 PM
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TargetsportsUSA is GOOD TO GO for FFL03 / COE ordering per their updated compliance page.

I had to re upload my FFL03 and COE to them today.
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  #252  
Old 07-02-2019, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by awiner View Post
TargetsportsUSA is GOOD TO GO for FFL03 / COE ordering per their updated compliance page.

I had to re upload my FFL03 and COE to them today.
Looking at their compliance page, they’ve clearly done their homework on this. Maybe their lead will drag others back to the light.

ETA: and your ragging on them (along with others) had a direct impact.
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  #253  
Old 07-12-2019, 4:20 PM
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So I'm picking up a C&R eligible firearm from a Cal Gunner tomorrow,but he's nervous and wants a DROS. Doesn't bother me any, there shouldn't be a wait anyway. The FFL might refuse to do it,but other than that is there a different procedure if I DROS? Should I not put it in my book? Do I still file with CFARS and pay the $19?
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  #254  
Old 07-12-2019, 5:29 PM
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Default C&R 03-FFL + COE Privileges in 2019 California

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewN View Post
So I'm picking up a C&R eligible firearm from a Cal Gunner tomorrow,but he's nervous and wants a DROS. Doesn't bother me any, there shouldn't be a wait anyway. The FFL might refuse to do it,but other than that is there a different procedure if I DROS? Should I not put it in my book? Do I still file with CFARS and pay the $19?

*** Correction as pointed out by Hinnerk

If you DROS, Don’t file with CFARS. The DROS does this reporting for you.

You DO however have to record any C&R firearms bought while licensed as an FFL03 in your bound book.

Last edited by awiner; 07-12-2019 at 10:27 PM..
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  #255  
Old 07-12-2019, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by awiner View Post
If you DROS, Don’t put it in your bound book or file with CFARS. The DROS does it all.
You MUST enter all C&R firearms into your bound book acquired or disposed during the time you are licensed. DROS replaces reporting through CFARS.

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  #256  
Old 07-15-2019, 9:58 AM
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Does the 'Personal Firearms Record' (P 3312.8 - revised August 2013) that came with my packet as a new '03 suffice as a 'bound book'? It's a slim cardboard thingy that is arguably four pages. It's similar in size to a 5x7 photograph.

I don't feel like spending $15-$30 or more for a commercial one. I guess if the one in the attachment does not suffice a writing tablet that is certainly bound that we had in grade school should suffice.

Nevertheless, I see no reference to the bound book. Requirement AFAIK is to keep an 'Acquisition and Disposition' (A&D) record. 18 USC 923(g)(2); 27 CFR 478.125(f). Haven't read those citations, but I received them from a sort of FAQ's re collectors on the ATF site.

Later: I looked at 18 USC 923(g)(2) and it DOES mention a 'bound volume'.

Now to look at the reg: For collectors, it does mention maintaining a 'bound form', with certain exceptions. It's quite detailed.

I don't know why ATF sent the Personal Firearms Record to me as it only adds to the confusion. Perhaps it was sent to give a template example, or for other reasons.

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File Type: jpg Personal Firearms Record.jpg (89.6 KB, 18 views)

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  #257  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
Does the 'Personal Firearms Record' (P 3312.8 - revised August 2013) that came with my packet as a new '03 suffice as a 'bound book'? It's a slim cardboard thingy that is arguably four pages. It's similar in size to a 5x7 photograph.

I don't feel like spending $15-$30 or more for a commercial one. I guess if the one in the attachment does not suffice a writing tablet that is certainly bound that we had in grade school should suffice.

Nevertheless, I see no reference to the bound book. Requirement AFAIK is to keep an 'Acquisition and Disposition' (A&D) record. 18 USC 923(g)(2); 27 CFR 478.125(f). Haven't read those citations, but I received them from a sort of FAQ's re collectors on the ATF site.
A bound book doesn't have to be bound nor a book. You can print your own as long as it has the required info and number the pages.

I have not looked closely at the document you posted due to the device I am using, but I would assume that it meets the requirements if it was sent with your license. Which turns out to be a bad assumption when I see the actual document.
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  #258  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:51 AM
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Kemasa-

Please review my revised post, above, where I did review those citations.

'Bound volume' in the code, 'Bound form' in the reg.

But there is a separate sub-section (h) re maintaining 'alternate records' in the reg, but one has to 'apply' for authorization in advance, but it may apply where one is also buying or selling AP ammo. It's confusing.

'Bound volume' for me, no question. The controlling word is 'bound' in both.

What a PITA dealing with all this time-consuming c**p. But Thank God (or Google) for the internet.

Last edited by savoirrangefaire; 07-15-2019 at 11:32 AM..
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  #259  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:22 AM
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Bound Book
Quote:
What is a "bound book"?

The firearms acquisition and disposition (A&D) record, also known as a “bound book”, is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]’
Cruffler.com Sample (Note the holes punched in the sheets. That allows you to put them in a binder, thus a “bound book”.

Personal Firearms Record
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  #260  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:36 AM
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That is what I was thinking about the Personal Firearms Record. It is to record all your firearms should they be stolen or lost, not just C&R acquisitions and dispositions. Thanks.
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  #261  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:50 AM
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I made my own bound book using printed sheets and had them spiral bound at Kinko's.

The purpose of the C&R bound book is to comply with federal law and regulations and should only include the C&R firearms you acquired or sold/transferred while licensed.

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  #262  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:51 AM
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Default C&R 03-FFL + COE Privileges in 2019 California

From the ATF webpage as linked by dvrjon

What is a "bound book"?

The firearms acquisition and disposition (A&D) record, also known as a “bound book”, is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
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  #263  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:00 PM
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Please also note that non-C&R firearms (antique or modern non-C&R) do not get entered into your C&R bound book nor do your C&R firearms acquired before you were licensed except when you dispose them while you are licensed.

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  #264  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
Kemasa-

Please review my revised post, above, where I did review those citations.

'Bound volume' in the code, 'Bound form' in the reg.

But there is a separate sub-section (h) re maintaining 'alternate records' in the reg, but one has to 'apply' for authorization in advance, but it may apply where one is also buying or selling AP ammo. It's confusing.

'Bound volume' for me, no question. The controlling word is 'bound' in both.

What a PITA dealing with all this time-consuming c**p. But Thank God (or Google) for the internet.
No, that isn't a bound book. That is just for having a complete record of what you own.

Hopefully this will work, this is an example bound book for Word that I posted before.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...8&d=1558285025
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  #265  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
That allows you to put them in a binder, thus a “bound book”.
There is no requirement that it be put in a binder or anything else. Note is says "an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages".
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  #266  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awiner View Post
From the ATF webpage as linked by dvrjon

What is a "bound book"?

The firearms acquisition and disposition (A&D) record, also known as a “bound book”, is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
Ambiguous and contradictory, but not worth quarreling.

Last edited by savoirrangefaire; 07-15-2019 at 12:39 PM..
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  #267  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
But there is a separate sub-section (h) re maintaining 'alternate records' in the reg, but one has to 'apply' for authorization in advance, but it may apply where one is also buying or selling AP ammo. It's confusing.
It is more for alternate electronic bound books, so have to get approved.

Quote:

'Bound volume' for me, no question. The controlling word is 'bound' in both.
No. It doesn't have to be bound, that is JUST a name.
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  #268  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
Ambiguous and contradictory, but not worth quarreling.
Not at all as there is an important word there "OR"

Quote:
Originally Posted by awiner View Post
From the ATF webpage as linked by dvrjon

What is a "bound book"?

The firearms acquisition and disposition (A&D) record, also known as a “bound book”, is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
Read this carefully. It is saying that it is a permanently bound book OR it is just loose-leaf pages. That is quite a bit of an OR. The key to the second part is ORDERLY, which means having a page number on them so that it can be ordered. I date when I print out a new page and I only print new pages just before I need it (when there is one entry left on the old page).
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  #269  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awiner View Post
From the ATF webpage as linked by dvrjon

What is a "bound book"?

The firearms acquisition and disposition (A&D) record, also known as a “bound book”, is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]
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Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
Ambiguous and contradictory, but not worth quarreling.
I notice that you chose not to put the word "or" in bold. That single little two-letter word makes it unambiguous and uncontradictory.

See: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/or

Addendum: I see that Kemasa posted essentially the same thing while I was fetching the link from Merriam-Webster for you. Kemasa is right.
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  #270  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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An orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages, which are removable, contradicts the 'bound book' common interpretation as to what is a 'bound book' and is oxymoronic. They should not use the words 'bound book' at all. And I do understand what 'or' means. The fact we're arguing about this just exemplifies how poorly descriptive the categorization may be.

That one fellow who went to Kinko's to bind the pages understands that of which I speak.

Last edited by savoirrangefaire; 07-15-2019 at 12:53 PM..
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  #271  
Old 07-15-2019, 1:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
An orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages, which are removable, contradicts the 'bound book' common interpretation as to what is a 'bound book' and is oxymoronic. They should not use the words 'bound book' at all. And I do understand what 'or' means. The fact we're arguing about this just exemplifies how poorly descriptive the categorization may be.

That one fellow who went to Kinko's to bind the pages understands that of which I speak.
The term "bound book" is just a name, don't read more into that as it isn't always a book nor bound.

It is the A&D records.
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  #272  
Old 07-15-2019, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The term "bound book" is just a name, don't read more into that as it isn't always a book nor bound.

It is the A&D records.
Kind of amusing, above, in bold.
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  #273  
Old 07-15-2019, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
An orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages, which are removable, contradicts the 'bound book' common interpretation as to what is a 'bound book' and is oxymoronic. They should not use the words 'bound book' at all. And I do understand what 'or' means. The fact we're arguing about this just exemplifies how poorly descriptive the categorization may be.

That one fellow who went to Kinko's to bind the pages understands that of which I speak.
It's this same hardline interpretation of the wording of the law why folks are saying maglock'd AR15s can't have a magazine with more than ten rounds.
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Old 07-15-2019, 1:48 PM
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It's this same hardline interpretation of the wording of the law why folks are saying maglock'd AR15s can't have a magazine with more than ten rounds.
This is a waste of time. I guess that 'rocks aren't hard' makes sense.

Last edited by savoirrangefaire; 07-15-2019 at 1:50 PM.. Reason: Unsubscribing from the thread. Thanks, much useful information.
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Old 07-15-2019, 1:51 PM
savoirrangefaire savoirrangefaire is offline
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It's this same hardline interpretation of the wording of the law why folks are saying maglock'd AR15s can't have a magazine with more than ten rounds.
Oh, that's very clear. It would make it an illegal AW under 30515.

Those of us who registered AW did benefit in some ways.
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Old 07-15-2019, 2:06 PM
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This is why [ one reason ] I decided not to get a 03 .
FYI - I have 3 copies of reloading [ powder , bullet , - all the info ] another set for my guns and another for press parts .
These are for insurance proposes , general info and a copy is in the cloud .
I also have a page for each nephew / niece and record their serial # caliber , when and where bought .
I also keep track of things like grips , scopes , sights and where I bought them from .
If you don't keep track of all that stuff - your problem . If you want to start - Costco sells 1/2 inch
notebooks either 6 or 10 at a time . They also sell like 300 [ maybe more ] sheet protectors .
I buy my paper at kink's / fed ex - they sell thicker paper . You can get index tabs at wall mart .
I use Excel and word .
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Old 07-15-2019, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by savoirrangefaire View Post
Kind of amusing, above, in bold.
Ok, so from now on, you can not refer to an automobile as a car, it is just plain wrong as you need to the correct term.

As well, you must always refer to the "bound book", a common name which most people understand what exactly it is, as "The firearms acquisition and disposition record", or since you want to be accurate, you need to always say "The firearms acquisition and disposition record which is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose–leaf pages which must be maintained at the business premises"

Sorry, you find it amusing that the term, which is just a name, isn't quite what you demand that it be.
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Old 07-15-2019, 3:29 PM
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Old 07-15-2019, 4:21 PM
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Old 07-15-2019, 5:08 PM
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Hadn't checked the thread in a while.

See a lot of new activity.

Wonder "Maybe there's been some new revelations in the 03COE world".

Get here and find this discussion:

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