Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:03 AM
Beendare's Avatar
Beendare Beendare is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sf bay area
Posts: 595
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default Getting conflicting info

So heres a hypothetical scenario for the experts;

BTW, looked at the sticky on familial transfers and the one FFL says CA DOJ has taken a harder stance.

Son moves out of state. He purchases off roster pistol and gifts to father in CA....multiple pistols actually. Father files appropriate paperwork with DOJ for transfer- all good.

The firearms dealer I talked to says no. FFL was just back from CA DOJ school and says this transaction is for 'Antique or vintage style guns" only. FFL says DOJ considers this skirting the Ca law.

Another FFL tells me its OK.

Another question is can the son ship the pistol to the father back in CA...or does he have to hand deliver?....... conflicting answers on that one too.
__________________
You don't drown by falling in the water; you drown by staying there.”
― Edwin Louis Cole
------------------------
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face", Mike Tyson

Last edited by Beendare; 08-04-2019 at 9:12 AM.. Reason: clarification auto correct
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:15 AM
Beendare's Avatar
Beendare Beendare is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sf bay area
Posts: 595
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

So I should clarify.
I realize father son have to go through an FFL- per sticky.

The one dealer is saying DOJ still considers this off roster transfer skirting the law somehow.

Clarification on the Shipping Q; Can a son ship a gun to his father while the gun is still in the sons name? I realize both parties need to be present for transfer at the Ca FFL.
__________________
You don't drown by falling in the water; you drown by staying there.”
― Edwin Louis Cole
------------------------
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face", Mike Tyson
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:23 AM
tenemae's Avatar
tenemae tenemae is offline
code Monkey
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: A burned-out Best Buy
Posts: 1,675
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Corrected by Librarian (see below post). I got this one wrong.


The "skirting the law" isn't really skirting. It depends on why the son bought the pistol(s). Did he buy the gun for himself, get tired of it/not like it, then decide to get rid of it... by happenstance realizing his father might want it and gifting it to him? Or did the son purchase the gun with the intent of gifting it to his father?

The former is legal. The latter is very illegal. It's called a "straw purchase". He may insist he bought the gun for himself. But when he does it 10 times, transferring within a week of purchase, he's probably going to jail.

Last edited by tenemae; 08-04-2019 at 10:51 AM.. Reason: Corrected by Librarian
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:39 AM
Cortelli Cortelli is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 427
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

See this thread: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1179771

Consult with FFL before shipment regarding what sorts of documentation the FFL wants (gift letter, copy of ID from son, etc.)

Must go through an FFL, and both parties need not be present as it is not a PPT.
__________________
I am not your lawyer. I am not providing legal advice. I am commenting on an internet forum. Should you need or want legal advice, please consult an attorney.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:44 AM
71MUSTY's Avatar
71MUSTY 71MUSTY is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,026
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
The "skirting the law" isn't really skirting. It depends on why the son bought the pistol(s). Did he buy the gun for himself, get tired of it/not like it, then decide to get rid of it... by happenstance realizing his father might want it and gifting it to him? Or did the son purchase the gun with the intent of gifting it to his father?

The former is legal. The latter is very illegal. It's called a "straw purchase". He may insist he bought the gun for himself. But when he does it 10 times, transferring within a week of purchase, he's probably going to jail.
?????

So an familial gift is suddenly a straw purchase???
__________________
Only slaves don't need guns

Quote:
Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
Americans vs. Democrats
We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross


We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.


What doesn't kill me, better run
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-04-2019, 9:50 AM
LD1061 LD1061 is offline
Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 287
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

So.....my son can buy me a fishing rod with no intention of using it and present it to me as a gift but he can't go gun shopping for me because he knows I like guns ?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:33 AM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Administrator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Posts: 44,422
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
The "skirting the law" isn't really skirting. It depends on why the son bought the pistol(s). Did he buy the gun for himself, get tired of it/not like it, then decide to get rid of it... by happenstance realizing his father might want it and gifting it to him? Or did the son purchase the gun with the intent of gifting it to his father?

The former is legal. The latter is very illegal. It's called a "straw purchase". He may insist he bought the gun for himself. But when he does it 10 times, transferring within a week of purchase, he's probably going to jail.
No, it's not a straw purchase.

Even the 4473 language clarifies that gifts are legal.
Quote:
Section 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party
, although the 2017 version of the 4473 has removed that from the front of the form. Now, it's in the instructions:
Quote:
Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other
Download your very own copyof the 4473 - https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Now, if it is NOT a 'bona fide gift', there could be problems.

As to what the FFL is saying, that's plain wrong.

It may be true that CADOJ is telling that to FFLs, but if so, they are once again Making Stuff Up - that's not what the law says. PC 27875(a) -
Quote:
27875.

(a) Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means from one individual to another, if all of the following requirements are met:

(1) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(2) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family.

(3) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall submit a report to the Department of Justice, in a manner prescribed by the department, that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this subdivision shall be made available to them in a format prescribed by the department.

(4) Until January 1, 2015, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a valid handgun safety certificate if the firearm is a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2015, a valid firearm safety certificate for any firearm, except that in the case of a handgun, a valid unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.

(5) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.
Nothing in there about
Quote:
'Antique or vintage style guns' only.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page

Frozen in 2015, it is falling out of date and I can no longer edit the content. But much of it is still good!
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

- Marcus Aurelius
Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.”

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-04-2019, 12:28 PM
Beendare's Avatar
Beendare Beendare is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sf bay area
Posts: 595
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Thanks Librarian for chiming in...that is what I was looking for.

RE the Dealer; The exact term she used but it was to the effect that the gun has to be a 'Family Heirloom'...otherwise its a straw purchase. She said she just got out of a DOJ seminar and that was their stance. The dealer seemed sincere.

Appreciate your posting the wording of those laws.....

FWIW, I wanted to make sure this scenario wasn't breaking the law. I would never try to circumvent the law. My son knows that it would be one heck of a good gift to get me something that I cannot buy myself- pretty rare for me to get a gift like that.
__________________
You don't drown by falling in the water; you drown by staying there.”
― Edwin Louis Cole
------------------------
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face", Mike Tyson
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-04-2019, 12:32 PM
edgerly779 edgerly779 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: canoga park, ca
Posts: 19,434
iTrader: 109 / 100%
Default

FFL just does not want to be bothered. Find a better ffl that does charge a lot for transfer. Try UG imports in your area.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-05-2019, 4:44 AM
jeremiah12 jeremiah12 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,054
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
FFL just does not want to be bothered. Find a better ffl that does charge a lot for transfer. Try UG imports in your area.
I second UG Imports. They are easy to work with and they know the law. They are 60 miles from me and I still use them because they are hassle free.
__________________
Anyone can look around and see the damage to the state and country inflicted by bad politicians.

A vote is clearly much more dangerous than a gun.

Why advocate restrictions on one right (voting) without comparable restrictions on another (self defense) (or, why not say 'Be a U.S. citizen' as the requirement for CCW)?

--Librarian
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-08-2019, 2:03 PM
brianm767's Avatar
brianm767 brianm767 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Clovis, Ca
Posts: 2,399
iTrader: 51 / 100%
Default

Its not skirting the law, its the actual law, the gifting of firearms between a parent, child or grandparent is roster exempt.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:53 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy