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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to:
Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees 6 4.62%
Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. 56 43.08%
Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight 56 43.08%
Other: explain what you are doing in a post 12 9.23%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1041  
Old 06-04-2022, 6:42 PM
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Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC was a company that sold lifetime memberships which included Free training.

Many of us realized for many years that this business model may not last forever.

Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC honored these lifetime free memberships, up until the day that it went bankrupt. "Lifetime" refers to the members lifetime and/or the company's lifetime. Pre-Bankruptcy Frontsight Management LLC's "life" has ended.

The Bankruptcy court will evaluate all of the filings presented by Frontsight, Las Vegas Land Development LLC, and any other affected parties and render decisions - including how pre-bankruptcy petition memberships will be treated.

Just factual, no emotion.....

P.S. - I had a great day of Private training at Frontsight TODAY. Tactical Rifle and pistol with Wyatt as RM
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  #1042  
Old 06-05-2022, 11:18 AM
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Default Just saying

But what about the claims of front sight being profitable every year? If that is true, then offering a free resort and free training, would be possible. being profitable means you can sustain what you offer. Not rocket science. That's my point. Plain and simple, they are all lies. No emotion. They took my money and did not deliver
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  #1043  
Old 06-05-2022, 12:34 PM
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Any chance we can write off what we've paid to F.S. as "bad debt" if they go under?

A long time ago I paid a guy $4K for something I never got and my tax guy wrote it off as "bad debt".
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  #1044  
Old 06-05-2022, 12:34 PM
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This thread is now doing double posts.
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  #1045  
Old 06-06-2022, 4:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
Thanks very much! I have a fair sized chunk of $$$$ involved also. I'm hoping they can come up with a functional plan going forward.
Yeah I saw your Name on the List. We are doing everything possible to help the Membership.
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  #1046  
Old 06-06-2022, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
the fact that Dr. P. only talks about what he took in the last four years is telling when he states revenue and expenses for the last 25 years. Classic. I love this from the creditors filings:
Tax returns and financial statements of the Debtor reflected that in excess of $20 million dollars was disbursed to Piazza and/or his entities in the form of an interest free note receivable to shareholder and shareholder distributions. In particular, from 2016 to 2019, the Debtor paid in excess of a million dollars for luxury or antique cars and approximately $15 million dollars was
disbursed to Piazza without indication of any apparent purpose or benefit to the Debtor,

Or this
Through discovery, the Lender Parties received Front Sightís financial records, including tax returns and bank statements, which demonstrated that the Piazzas, either individually or through the VNV Dynasty Trusts, were paying themselves millions of dollars a year from Front Sightís bank accounts. In addition, the Front Sight bank statements and tax returns also revealed that the Piazzas were using the Front Sight bank accounts to purchase luxury automobiles for themselves because the luxury automobiles were never listed on Front Sightís tax returns but were listed on Ignatius Piazzaís personal financial statements. Id. p. 5, l. 20-28 and Exhibit 10.2

A forensic accountant issued an expert opinion on May 27, 2021 summarizing and detailing the evidence of the millions of dollars the Piazzas took out of Front Sightís bank accounts from 2016-2019. Id. p. 6, l. 1-7 and Exhibit 11.3
If true, and I don't have doubts it is, Piazza should be charged with embezzlement. AFAIK 1st rule of having a Corp or other business entity other than a sole proprietorship is what ever monies the business generates belongs to the business. If you improperly take monies out of a Corp, LLC, etc its embezzlement.
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  #1047  
Old 06-06-2022, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
If true, and I don't have doubts it is, Piazza should be charged with embezzlement. AFAIK 1st rule of having a Corp or other business entity other than a sole proprietorship is what ever monies the business generates belongs to the business. If you improperly take monies out of a Corp, LLC, etc its embezzlement.
Not sure about embezzlement, as the LLC can provide loans to the members. I think this is just more about not being transparent. I have no problem with Dr. P. making whatever he makes. It's just when you always have your hand out asking for more money and making promises based on speculation rather than facts, it is a little dishonest.

Personally, he promised me training. I got that. Everything beyond that, the resort, the hotels and condo's, the nameplates on the outcropping overlooking the resort, that did not happen. And at this point, never will unless the new owner wants to develop it.
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  #1048  
Old 06-06-2022, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
Not sure about embezzlement, as the LLC can provide loans to the members. I think this is just more about not being transparent. I have no problem with Dr. P. making whatever he makes. It's just when you always have your hand out asking for more money and making promises based on speculation rather than facts, it is a little dishonest.

Personally, he promised me training. I got that. Everything beyond that, the resort, the hotels and condo's, the nameplates on the outcropping overlooking the resort, that did not happen. And at this point, never will unless the new owner wants to develop it.
If everything was done properly, sure you can, but if he was just using it as his personal piggy bank that is a different story. He had a fiduciary duty to FS not to himself.
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  #1049  
Old 06-11-2022, 5:03 AM
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He borrowed millions from investors, took millions out in the ‎form of interest free loans instead of using it to build up the ‎investors investment! This is not lack of transparency, this is ‎fraud. He also lied to the members he was begging for money ‎from. FS was his personal toy bank its bankrupt now and he ‎deserves everything that happens to him. Best the world now ‎knows that he was and always will be the POS that people said ‎he was and proof is here and now! He made fun of all other way ‎more credible gun training companies and now they got the last ‎laugh. And they are laughing at him.‎
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  #1050  
Old 06-11-2022, 10:24 AM
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Once this is over, I have shares in the Brooklyn bridge for sale to FS ex-investors.

Come on, those that invested thousands in FS, you did not see the end of this Ponzi scheme coming? No due diligence there for sure.

How did Villas in the middle of the desert came across as an appealing idea?

Caveat Emptor.
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  #1051  
Old 06-11-2022, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00dmaster View Post
He borrowed millions from investors, took millions out in the ‎form of interest free loans instead of using it to build up the ‎investors investment! This is not lack of transparency, this is ‎fraud. He also lied to the members he was begging for money ‎from. FS was his personal toy bank its bankrupt now and he ‎deserves everything that happens to him. Best the world now ‎knows that he was and always will be the POS that people said ‎he was and proof is here and now! He made fun of all other way ‎more credible gun training companies and now they got the last ‎laugh. And they are laughing at him.‎
In my 12 years and the many classes Iíve taken there, Iíve never heard any FS instructor belittle any other school, even smaller schools. Some even encourage you to take classes at other schools to learn their styles of teaching.

In the other schools Iíve also attended, most instructors are also professional enough not to put FS down. When I hear an instructor puts down another school during class, is the minute I start doubting his professionalism.
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  #1052  
Old 06-11-2022, 5:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
In the other schools Iíve also attended, most instructors are also professional enough not to put FS down. When I hear an instructor puts down another school during class, is the minute I start doubting his professionalism.
Unfortunately I came across a SoCal-based school that put down FS. One of the more popular, to say the leastÖ I had to keep my mouth shut but was thinking in my mind that at least FS has a standard curriculum, and with their Skills Test, ensures that the students are up to par in the more advanced classes.

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  #1053  
Old 06-11-2022, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
In my 12 years and the many classes Iíve taken there, Iíve never heard any FS instructor belittle any other school, even smaller schools. Some even encourage you to take classes at other schools to learn their styles of teaching.

In the other schools Iíve also attended, most instructors are also professional enough not to put FS down. When I hear an instructor puts down another school during class, is the minute I start doubting his professionalism.
I can attest to this as well. Every time I have been there the instructors have encouraged students to brach out and take classes at other places in addition to attending classes at FS.
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  #1054  
Old 06-13-2022, 5:58 PM
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Ok boys,
I just got back from a 2 day private with my wife and although there wasn't much else going on there, we had a blast.

Our instructor was top notch and professional. We even had some small talk about what is going on with Dr. Pizza but, this guy was still positive. I gotta say, I've never had better training! I DG'd 4DDHG and my wife, who isn't all that into it got a G.

Unfortunately, the near future for F.S. doesn't look good based on the amount of cars in the parking lot for those 2 days but, all the staff was exactly the same as they ever had been.
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  #1055  
Old 06-13-2022, 10:09 PM
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I've got 3 classes in the next few weeks , curious to see how attendance is.
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  #1056  
Old 06-14-2022, 5:46 AM
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Just to ponder for a moment Dr. Piazza in his Signed written Statement that he owns 1% of Front Sight and the other is owned by two Trusts that each own 49.5% Each of Front Sight for a total of 99%. So, if he was going to give it to the membership and he has already transferred it to two Trusts, Then, You shouldn't be telling people you are getting something that he no longer owns and is Selling it through Patronage Points for ownership to the Membership. You can decide what to call it.

Last edited by Doctor_Chicago; 06-14-2022 at 5:52 AM..
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  #1057  
Old 06-14-2022, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Chicago View Post
Just to ponder for a moment Dr. Piazza in his Signed written Statement that he owns 1% of Front Sight and the other is owned by two Trusts that each own 49.5% Each of Front Sight for a total of 99%. So, if he was going to give it to the membership and he has already transferred it to two Trusts, Then, You shouldn't be telling people you are getting something that he no longer owns and is Selling it through Patronage Points for ownership to the Membership. You can decide what to call it.
Who is in charge of said trusts. That's the question you should be asking. If the trust is owned by a S-Corp, who is the CEO or board?

Follow the money long enough and you'll get the answer.
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  #1058  
Old 06-14-2022, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor_Chicago View Post
Just to ponder for a moment Dr. Piazza in his Signed written Statement that he owns 1% of Front Sight and the other is owned by two Trusts that each own 49.5% Each of Front Sight for a total of 99%. So, if he was going to give it to the membership and he has already transferred it to two Trusts, Then, You shouldn't be telling people you are getting something that he no longer owns and is Selling it through Patronage Points for ownership to the Membership. You can decide what to call it.
Ouch.
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  #1059  
Old 06-14-2022, 9:27 PM
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As long as the land has value it will never be given away
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  #1060  
Old 06-15-2022, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
I've got 3 classes in the next few weeks , curious to see how attendance is.
56 students total this week.
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  #1061  
Old 06-15-2022, 9:03 PM
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Yup, 7 in my PR skill test class
Heard about Logan today...
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  #1062  
Old 06-15-2022, 9:31 PM
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Logan quit? As in Seth & Logan brothers?
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  #1063  
Old 06-15-2022, 9:40 PM
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Logan's last day was today.
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  #1064  
Old 06-16-2022, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
56 students total this week.
Week before was 43
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  #1065  
Old 06-16-2022, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
In my 12 years and the many classes Iíve taken there, Iíve never heard any FS instructor belittle any other school, even smaller schools. Some even encourage you to take classes at other schools to learn their styles of teaching.
Well said, spoken for truth.

I've also taken several classes. Never once did I hear an instructor put down another training venue. I've also never experienced many of high pressure sales tactics alleged by some members of this forum.

If the good Doctor wants to charge $100 a day for training, that is still a bargain price. Some other venues are double to triple that.
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  #1066  
Old 06-16-2022, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diverwcw View Post
Well said, spoken for truth.

I've also taken several classes. Never once did I hear an instructor put down another training venue. I've also never experienced many of high pressure sales tactics alleged by some members of this forum.

If the good Doctor wants to charge $100 a day for training, that is still a bargain price. Some other venues are double to triple that.
I too agree that I have never heard a FS instructor bad mouth another place. However, Diverwcw, if you have never experienced high pressure sales tactics, then you must have unsubscribed to the FS email and blocked the phone calls.

In regards to the 100/day for training, agree again that it's a good price compared others. I have spent 400-700 for 2 day training sessions at other places. The difference is, I didn't have a lifetime membership that promised free access to all classes and all facilities now and forever. Additionally, those instructors were world class. FS has a extremely good set of instructors, but there are some that are better than others. When you book a class, you don't get to choose who teaches or what the ratio of instructor to students will be.

I can't see myself ever going back under the current rule/policy set. If I can go back and take my private for free (as paid for and promised), then I am excited to go.
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  #1067  
Old 06-16-2022, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
56 students total this week.
56 in your class or 56 in the whole facility?

Lets say 56 in a 4 day class, 56 x 4 x 100 = $22,400. Not a bad haul.
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  #1068  
Old 06-16-2022, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWalt View Post
56 in your class or 56 in the whole facility?

Lets say 56 in a 4 day class, 56 x 4 x 100 = $22,400. Not a bad haul.
Whole facility. Note this was Monday-Thursday. I believe there was one 4 Day Defensive Handgun, one 2 Day Defensive Handgun and a Tactical Shotgun course along with some private courses.
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  #1069  
Old 06-16-2022, 7:37 PM
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I bet a lot of students were driven away by the $100/day cost. Free is (was) good LOL.

This was taken on Memorial Day 5/27/22 when people were flocking for the last of freebie classes:
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  #1070  
Old 06-17-2022, 12:58 PM
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Here's the parking lot both days at 8 AM when I was there last week.

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  #1071  
Old 06-17-2022, 2:55 PM
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Just finished HCMP class yesterday.

Light turnout, but it is starting to get hot.

Really won't know how the new fees will affect turnout until September...

Some people find $100 per day is great value compared with other shooting schools.

Some people are used to Free being Free, and any fee is unpalatable.

Classes and instruction same as always.

"Old Frontsight" went bankrupt.

"New Frontsight" is open for business during the Chapter 11 reorganization.....

Each member will make their own choice on how to proceed, as it should be.
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  #1072  
Old 06-17-2022, 4:18 PM
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Quote:
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Logan's last day was today.
That's a shame, he was fantastic. I took 4D Marksmanship with him as RM about a year ago. One of the most knowledgeable instructors I've ever had there.

THEN, in April this year, I took the 2D Marksmanship SB. I ended up with a partner with no name tape on his hat that one of the instructors cracked a vague joke about walking by when we partnered up. It wasn't long before I recognized the familiar voice of the man, Logan, himself. He was definitely incognito, street clothes, wearing a shemag, about all that was exposed was his nose LOL. Best relay partner ever!! He gave me some excellent advice and tips that helped me improve.

I was dumbfounded at the level of skill he possessed. He was there trying something just to try it. Shooting an AR-15. No bipod. Red dot optic, 1X magnification. He was shooting better than many in the class. He didn't stay to take the test but I believe he had a good chance of getting a G. He will be missed.
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  #1073  
Old 06-21-2022, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
I can attest to this as well. Every time I have been there the instructors have encouraged students to brach out and take classes at other places in addition to attending classes at FS.
Same for me. The only thing even close to denegrating another school was during a safety warning. The instructor described something and said, "It didn't happen here but at another school."

I'm pretty sure that during every class I've taken the instructors encourage students to train at as many places as they can because there is always more to learn.
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  #1074  
Old 06-21-2022, 1:31 PM
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Same here. There is something to be said about it in that how you shoot is personal and what works for you. Weaver doesnít work well for me, neither does isosceles but somewhere in between. Front sight is a good starting point and makes you safe. I will miss the school as they wonít be around long and some great staff is going. My son really enjoyed it and the trips we took. Oh well. Time to make new memories. I have found local training that is as good if not better. Just wish the facilities were on par.
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  #1075  
Old 06-23-2022, 11:17 AM
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Listening to Dr. Piazza answer questions under oath to the US Trustee and other Attorneys for over 3 hours so far....
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  #1076  
Old 06-24-2022, 4:13 AM
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5 Hours of the 341 Creditors Committee Concluded. Patronage Points for Ownership Gone. Patronage Points and/or FS Bucks for Profit Sharing going forward according to Dr. Piazza. Minimum Stalking Horse Bid for the Property will be between $14-19 Million if someone wants to buy it above FS DIP Financing Bid. Good Luck Everyone!
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  #1077  
Old 06-24-2022, 6:44 AM
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Interesting. So Ignatius Piazza's Stalking Horse is bidding to buy the property from his own FS LLC? And some sort of a re-born FS iteration may succeed the present one free from its debts?

I had to look up the concept of Stalking Horse.
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  #1078  
Old 06-24-2022, 6:46 AM
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Lol is there a fork emoji.
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Old 06-24-2022, 8:44 AM
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Old 06-24-2022, 2:48 PM
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image.jpg

- definition of:

A goat rodeo is a slang term for something going totally, unbelievably, disastrously wrong, and there's nothing left to do but to sit back and watch the trainwreck. In other words, a goat rodeo is a chaotic situation, fiasco, or, more vulgarly a "s***show?"
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