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  #1  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:03 AM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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Default PPT when seller is out of state resident

It is routinely said that a PPT is limited to transfers between CA residents, but my understanding is that while the DROS system requires both the seller and the buyer to be California residents by virtue of the fact that the FFL must swipe either a California DL or ID, no regulation exists that would prevent a resident of another state from doing a PPT with a CA resident, as long as that seller appeared before the CFFL at the time of the PPT?

Is there a way for a FFL to do the transaction when the seller doesn't have the CDL or CID or is there something else I am missing?
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
It is routinely said that a PPT is limited to transfers between CA residents, but my understanding is that while the DROS system requires both the seller and the buyer to be California residents by virtue of the fact that the FFL must swipe either a California DL or ID, no regulation exists that would prevent a resident of another state from doing a PPT with a CA resident, as long as that seller appeared before the CFFL at the time of the PPT?

Is there a way for a FFL to do the transaction when the seller doesn't have the CDL or CID or is there something else I am missing?
This is one of those underground regulations where the DOJ makes you select CAID, CADL, or Military ID on a PPT.

In fact the old DROS software (Pre DES) had the coding for all 50 states but only CA was an option.

Without being able to select the right state its not possible.
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:18 AM
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No. Without a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty station orders, it can't be done as a CA PPT.
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Old 11-27-2019, 11:30 AM
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Has anyone ever approached the DOJ as to how they might do a PPT between where the seller isn't a CA resident? It would seem that the DOJ could allow a manual submission if it wanted.
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2019, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
No. Without a CA ID/DL or military ID with duty station orders, it can't be done as a CA PPT.
I have never seen anything in the PC or CCR that required duty station orders for the seller so I think an out of state person with Mil ID could sell here via PPT but not 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Has anyone ever approached the DOJ as to how they might do a PPT between where the seller isn't a CA resident? It would seem that the DOJ could allow a manual submission if it wanted.
The DOJ intentionally isn't allow this....its not a oversight. If they did ever out of state visitors would bring off rosters here to sell as a premium as much as they could.
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2019, 1:13 PM
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Not a PPT - FFL would have to accept firearm and log into his bound book. He can then transfer it to you. PPT fees are out the window and you'll need to pay his standard fee for receiving a firearm from out of state.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2019, 6:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
I have never seen anything in the PC or CCR that required duty station orders for the seller so I think an out of state person with Mil ID could sell here via PPT but not 100%.
It's on the CA DOJ BOF FAQ.

What identification is required to purchase a firearm?
Clear evidence of identity and age is defined as a valid California driver license or a valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. Military identification is also acceptable if accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California, but the dealer must retain copies of both documents.

Temporary driver licenses and temporary identification cards are not accepted forms of proof of identity and age.

(Pen. Code, § 16400)


The thing is PC 16400 does not include Military ID.
So, technically, Military ID should not be accepted.

However, CA DOJ allows Military ID when used in conjuction with military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within CA.
This is because military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within CA is acceptable proof of residency in CA. [PC 26845(b)]



Penal Code 16400
As used in this part, “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age” means either of the following:
(a) A valid California driver’s license.
(b) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Penal Code 26845
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice.
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Last edited by Quiet; 11-27-2019 at 6:40 PM..
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2019, 6:59 PM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
It's on the CA DOJ BOF FAQ.

What identification is required to purchase a firearm?
Clear evidence of identity and age is defined as a valid California driver license or a valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. Military identification is also acceptable if accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California, but the dealer must retain copies of both documents.

Temporary driver licenses and temporary identification cards are not accepted forms of proof of identity and age.

(Pen. Code, § 16400)


The thing is PC 16400 does not include Military ID.
So, technically, Military ID should not be accepted.

However, CA DOJ allows Military ID when used in conjuction with military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within CA.
This is because military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within CA is acceptable proof of residency in CA. [PC 26845(b)]



Penal Code 16400
As used in this part, “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age” means either of the following:
(a) A valid California driver’s license.
(b) A valid California identification card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Penal Code 26845
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice.


It’s this all for the buyer of the firearm. Not the seller?
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2019, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
It’s this all for the buyer of the firearm. Not the seller?
AFAIK...
The seller needs to provide the same info as the buyer for conducting a PPT. [PC 28060]
This is in case the buyer gets denied and the dealer has to try & return the firearm to the seller. [PC 28050(d)]
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Last edited by Quiet; 11-27-2019 at 7:23 PM..
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2019, 8:31 PM
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Nope. Not gonna happen.
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2019, 8:12 AM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
AFAIK...
The seller needs to provide the same info as the buyer for conducting a PPT. [PC 28060]
This is in case the buyer gets denied and the dealer has to try & return the firearm to the seller. [PC 28050(d)]
If the reason for requiring either a CDL or a CID was the possible need to return the firearm to the seller, then wouldn't a FFL need the same proofs of identity for an interstate transfer?

Has a test case ever been brought challenging this underground regulation?
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Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2019, 8:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
If the reason for requiring either a CDL or a CID was the possible need to return the firearm to the seller, then wouldn't a FFL need the same proofs of identity for an interstate transfer?
Why? A FFL can't transfer a handgun to a resident from another state and it would have to be transferred through a FFL in their state of residence. A transfer from out of state is just a transfer, no return requirement, the same as receiving it from anyone and there is no law requiring proof of identity. There is no requirement under Federal law for the shipper of a firearm, including from a FFL, to provide any documents, just a piece of paper or email with the claimed info is acceptable under the law, but perhaps not to the FFL receiving it.

If you were to do a PPT from an out of state person, that means if the buyer was denied, the firearm can't be returned to the seller, so under CA law, it would have to be turned over to the police. Is that what you would want?
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Why? A FFL can't transfer a handgun to a resident from another state and it would have to be transferred through a FFL in their state of residence. A transfer from out of state is just a transfer, no return requirement, the same as receiving it from anyone and there is no law requiring proof of identity. There is no requirement under Federal law for the shipper of a firearm, including from a FFL, to provide any documents, just a piece of paper or email with the claimed info is acceptable under the law, but perhaps not to the FFL receiving it.

If you were to do a PPT from an out of state person, that means if the buyer was denied, the firearm can't be returned to the seller, so under CA law, it would have to be turned over to the police. Is that what you would want?
In some instances, yes. Especially when one knows that the buyer won't be denied and the FFL delivers to undetermineds.

I didn't realize that there is no return requirement for a failed transfer from another state.
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This is neither legal advice nor a legal opinion.
Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2019, 8:05 PM
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A seller in state X posts a gun on Gunbroker.

CA resident buys the gun

Seller ships gun to CA FFL who dros to CA buyer.


If the gun is an off roster modern pistol, DOJ blocks the transfer as the pistol is not on roster.

Federal law covers selling and buying guns to residents of other states....
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2019, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
...
Federal law covers selling and buying guns to residents of other states....
State laws also apply, not just in CA.
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  #16  
Old 12-19-2019, 4:49 PM
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I’m not sure if this is relevant. But I just was audited and I asked a question about a PPT. She actually gave good information and stated both party’s don’t not need to be present for a PPT. However don’t confuse this thinking you can buy out of state but both party’s need to be CA resident and that they can come at different times for the transaction.
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Old 12-19-2019, 5:03 PM
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^^^ yes, DROS worksheet covers that scenario.
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Old 01-06-2020, 10:23 AM
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How would this work with a rifle? Specifically a bolt-action 22 or other non-"evil" rifle.

If an out-of-state non-CA-resident visited CA, could they transfer said rifle to an FFL, and then have the FFL sell/transfer to an in-state CA resident (without the seller possessing military ID, or CA ID)? Or would they need to ship the rifle to that same FFL, as opposed to bringing it in person)?

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Old 01-06-2020, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheddarmonkey View Post
How would this work with a rifle? Specifically a bolt-action 22 or other non-"evil" rifle.

1) If an out-of-state non-CA-resident visited CA, could they transfer said rifle to an FFL, and then have the FFL sell/transfer to an in-state CA resident (without the seller possessing military ID, or CA ID)?

2) Or would they need to ship the rifle to that same FFL, as opposed to bringing it in person)?

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1) an out of state resident may legally bring a CA-legal firearm to CA and make a transfer at a CA-FFL to a CA resident.

2) Whether an FFL will accept a 'walk-in' or shipment by an individual is a business practice of that FFL.
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Old 04-08-2021, 7:55 AM
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Hi everyone, first post to CalGuns, thanks for the excellent resource.

Between this thread and others here, as well as Reddit, I think I have this figured out. However, before I bring guns into California with the possibility of selling down the road, I wanted to ensure that I'm legal to sell person to person.

My situation:

- Currently stationed in Texas, with orders to move to California at the end of the month.

- Currently an Alaska resident (significant tax benefits, so I'll be keeping this).

- I have 1 or 2 pistols (neither are on the roster) that I may want to eventually sell, but I'd rather not rush to sell them here in TX (leaving in just over two weeks).

- From what I understand, I'm legal to sell to a California resident as long as I have my orders indicating my PCS to CA and my military ID (and as long as the mags are not "high" (i.e. normal) capacity etc) and as long as we conduct the sale in accordance with all other PPT rules.

- In summary: active duty military, Alaska resident, California PCS orders, looking to legally sell a handgun or two at some point (I do this frequently in TX without issue).

Thanks!
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  #21  
Old 04-08-2021, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prefontaine View Post
Hi everyone, first post to CalGuns, thanks for the excellent resource.

Between this thread and others here, as well as Reddit, I think I have this figured out. However, before I bring guns into California with the possibility of selling down the road, I wanted to ensure that I'm legal to sell person to person.

My situation:

- Currently stationed in Texas, with orders to move to California at the end of the month.

- Currently an Alaska resident (significant tax benefits, so I'll be keeping this).

- I have 1 or 2 pistols (neither are on the roster) that I may want to eventually sell, but I'd rather not rush to sell them here in TX (leaving in just over two weeks).

- From what I understand, I'm legal to sell to a California resident as long as I have my orders indicating my PCS to CA and my military ID (and as long as the mags are not "high" (i.e. normal) capacity etc) and as long as we conduct the sale in accordance with all other PPT rules.

- In summary: active duty military, Alaska resident, California PCS orders, looking to legally sell a handgun or two at some point (I do this frequently in TX without issue).

Thanks!
The bottom line is that you will be able to sell your handguns to a California resident once you are stationed here on PCS orders. You'll also find that your weapons will sell for a much higher price (particularly of off-roster) than they would in Baja Oklahoma.

But under the conditions you posted, you're not an Alaska resident for the purposes of California and federal firearms laws. Once you're stationed here, you're a California resident, and only a California resident, for those purposes. Alaska may consider you to be a resident for their tax purposes, but that's a whole different story.
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Old 04-08-2021, 10:17 AM
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With PCS orders for gun buying/selling purposes both CA and the Federal Government will consider you a CA resident.
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