Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Calguns LEOs
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-11-2019, 2:30 PM
FalconLair's Avatar
FalconLair FalconLair is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Summerlin, NV.
Posts: 2,954
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default CCW = Probable cause to search vehicle?

Yes?
No?

my son was pulled over in CA earlier this morning and while removing his license from his wallet the officer noticed his NV CCW - asked him if he was armed (he wasn't), then asked to search his vehicle

my son asked what probable cause existed to search his vehicle and the officer replied loudly "the fact you have a firearms permit that isn't valid here gives me probable cause"

my son restated that he wasn't carrying since he is fully aware that his CCW isn't recognized in CA - it's always in his wallet per carry laws in NV

officer kind of looked inside the vehicle from where he was and i guess he must've been satisfied, warned my son that when he pulled out of the hotel driveway oncoming traffic was a bit close for comfort, let him off with that warning

overall not a horrible encounter my son just found it a bit odd the way the officer snapped at him - says he can't wait to get back home where LE doesn't seem to care if you have a CCW

anyway, i get the officer asking, not sure if that alone would constitute probable cause for a search

how would you guys handle something like that during a traffic stop? does probable cause exist?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barang View Post

I! hate! you! FalconLair.
I like that part of America where if you put mayonnaise on potatoes it becomes a salad

Last edited by FalconLair; 08-12-2019 at 2:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-11-2019, 2:33 PM
baranski's Avatar
baranski baranski is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: South Vista
Posts: 2,755
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

He should call the station and complain.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-11-2019, 2:38 PM
FalconLair's Avatar
FalconLair FalconLair is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Summerlin, NV.
Posts: 2,954
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baranski View Post
He should call the station and complain.
my son didn't really care, he didn't know if the officer actually had probable cause or not - the officer didn't search the vehicle and other then the one comment he made everything else went ok - even i don't think its enough for any kind of formal complaint against the officer

just got me to thinking
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barang View Post

I! hate! you! FalconLair.
I like that part of America where if you put mayonnaise on potatoes it becomes a salad
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-11-2019, 2:38 PM
P5Ret P5Ret is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SF Ebay
Posts: 5,004
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

When I had probable cause to search, I did it permission or not. He asked if he could search, he didn't search. Would the out of state CCW be cause to ask, sure, but it isn't probable cause to search. Then again we're getting this third hand and probably not verbatim.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-11-2019, 2:51 PM
RickD427's Avatar
RickD427 RickD427 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: King County
Posts: 6,201
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Falcon Lair,

One of the problems with "Probable Cause" is that it's not a certain concept. Reasonable minds can differ as to what circumstances constitute "Probable Cause." The second problem with the concept is that both the officer and the subject don't get a clear determination of whether "Probable Cause" existed until the PC 1538.5 hearing.

The courts have defined the term to mean a "Fair Probability" that the object being sought will be found. I like to look at the English root of the word "Probable" to mean that there is a greater than 50% chance of finding the object.

IMHO, that standard is not met under the condition that you describe. While it may be reasonable to conclude that a CCW permit holder is carrying a firearm, that point is also balanced by the fact that the permit holder is in a jurisdiction where the permit is not valid. The fact that the subject has gone to the effort to secure the permit indicates an effort to comply with the law. That supports the conclusion that the person is not carrying where prohibited by the law.

But the officer is allowed to consider all information that they are cognizant of in making the PC determination. If a weapons case were visible, or if there was a bulge in clothing, or if bulky clothing were being worn on a hot day, all may rise to a finding of PC. In your case, we don't know the officer's point of view.
__________________
If you build a man a fire, you'll keep him warm for the evening. If you set a man on fire, you'll keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-11-2019, 9:33 PM
RCxRC RCxRC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: burbs of Los Angeles
Posts: 88
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

In my mind it only raises suspicion, and an opening to investigate and question further, if one was so inclined and was trying to build more info (elements) to eventually give him enough PC (probable cause) to search. Something like having an NRA sticker on a bumper.

For most non-gun type officers (yes, the vast majority, believe it or not), if trying to "run with it", they would look inside the car for any plain-view evidence of a firearm in the vehicle, and ask some pointed questions (are you armed, do you have any firearms in the vehicle...which you can choose to answer or politely decline / redirect, etc, keeping in mind contradictory statements can add up to developing cause/PC). Being "suspicious" (not yet to the standard of "reasonable suspicion", or PC) does not in and of itself provide the grounds to search, as much as it pains some officers to hear that. They then ask for consent to search if they really wanted to push it as far as they could legally. Of course your son is completely in the right to politely refuse a consent search and ask questions, which he did. The officer apparently did not feel that he in fact had "probable cause" or even strong "reasonable suspicion" at that time, and implicitly said so by asking for "consent" to search (not necessary if he in fact had PC, based on the "vehicle exception" for a warrantless search of a vehicle. If he already had enough PC to conduct a warrantless search, he would have called for a back-up unit to come and watch your son while he went about his search, without even asking for consent in the first place - although some officers, in an attempt to avoid later scrutiny of their PC in court, will ask for consent anyway, which puts them back into the place of having to ask themselves if they actually have enough PC to go ahead with a warrantless vehicle search).

Since the officer only saw a CCW in the wallet, that in and of itself doesn't seem to rise to the level of "probable cause" such that a vehicle search would be warranted or legal, at least in my mind. Some officers, though, may beg to differ, but I doubt many courts would uphold the search.

Myself, knowing the guy took the time to get an out-of-state CCW might lead me to simply ask if he had any weapons in the vehicle, and leave it at that. He's already earned my respect. If anything, I might take the opportunity to educate on the current state of CA law to help him avoid any issues. I am personally more of the mind to educate folks instead of running everyone in (although I still keep a very high recap).

Keep in mind, although one could easily dismiss such an interaction as out-of-bounds, anti-2nd, or just a punk cop power play, realize that there are several exceptions that would make a simple misdemeanor CCW violation a felony, such as having a firearm that is reported stolen, or carrying a firearm not registered to him, being listed as a gang member, previously convicted of a felony, etc. So please don't just brush it off lightly as someone trying to "violate his rights", or of being an anti. The officer was well within is rights to do exactly as he did, based on his observation (as you've described), although of course without the attitude.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. ..."
--Theodore Roosevelt, "The Strenuous Life," April 10, 1899

Last edited by RCxRC; 08-14-2019 at 1:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:20 PM
shojivic's Avatar
shojivic shojivic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 545
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

The Supreme Court has ruled specifically that with articulable facts:

With reasonable suspicion of weapons in a vehicle, officers may search places and containers that could conceal them. Michigan v. Long (1983) 463 US 1032, 1049; 2006-20.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:39 PM
shojivic's Avatar
shojivic shojivic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 545
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baranski View Post
He should call the station and complain.
Third-party complaint suggestions.. love it. Since you think using a strong tone denotes misconduct.. guess you're one of those sour grapes sensitive types.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-12-2019, 1:12 AM
RCxRC RCxRC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: burbs of Los Angeles
Posts: 88
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

In the case quoted, a hunting knife was observed in plain view inside the vehicle.

A search based on someone simply possessing an out-of-state CCW, in and of itself, is still stretching it. Again, a reasonable officer would try to gain more info, observations, etc. Not that I don't think a good report writer could write that "based on my training and experience a CCW holder will usually carry a concealed firearm with them the majority of the time while in public....", etc, and with the right City Atty, anything is possible.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. ..."
--Theodore Roosevelt, "The Strenuous Life," April 10, 1899

Last edited by RCxRC; 08-12-2019 at 1:18 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-12-2019, 5:02 AM
slixx1320 slixx1320 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 457
iTrader: 48 / 100%
Default

Let me guess, this happened in LA county?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-12-2019, 2:18 PM
FalconLair's Avatar
FalconLair FalconLair is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Summerlin, NV.
Posts: 2,954
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slixx1320 View Post
Let me guess, this happened in LA county?
well, i know he was staying at the Beverly Hilton, same hotel where Whitney Houston died, so im guessing he got stopped pulling out onto Santa Monica Blvd.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barang View Post

I! hate! you! FalconLair.
I like that part of America where if you put mayonnaise on potatoes it becomes a salad
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-12-2019, 4:10 PM
oddjob oddjob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lodi, California
Posts: 2,213
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Calif Highway Patrol?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-12-2019, 5:01 PM
NATEWA NATEWA is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,755
iTrader: 67 / 100%
Default

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blo...arms-case-law/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:09 PM
starlight starlight is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconLair View Post
Yes?
No?

my son was pulled over in CA earlier this morning and while removing his license from his wallet the officer noticed his NV CCW - asked him if he was armed (he wasn't), then asked to search his vehicle

my son asked what probable cause existed to search his vehicle and the officer replied loudly "the fact you have a firearms permit that isn't valid here gives me probable cause"

my son restated that he wasn't carrying since he is fully aware that his CCW isn't recognized in CA - it's always in his wallet per carry laws in NV

officer kind of looked inside the vehicle from where he was and i guess he must've been satisfied, warned my son that when he pulled out of the hotel driveway oncoming traffic was a bit close for comfort, let him off with that warning

overall not a horrible encounter my son just found it a bit odd the way the officer snapped at him - says he can't wait to get back home where LE doesn't seem to care if you have a CCW

anyway, i get the officer asking, not sure if that alone would constitute probable cause for a search

how would you guys handle something like that during a traffic stop? does probable cause exist?


- tell your son to give simple, respectful answers
- "no officer", "yes officer" etc..
- not "what probable cause do you have?!"

- he asked a yes/no question
- give a yes/no response

- the legality of any search will be determined later on
- tell your son not to answer an officer's question with another question... simply answer the question as precisely as possible (as if he were at a job interview)

- dunno what county he was stopped in, but it wasn't around here
- if you request ccw around here the deputies start chit chatting about your favorite guns and the range qualifaction process, etc. They are very enthusiastic.. but every region is different...







.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-14-2019, 5:11 AM
slixx1320 slixx1320 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 457
iTrader: 48 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconLair View Post
well, i know he was staying at the Beverly Hilton, same hotel where Whitney Houston died, so im guessing he got stopped pulling out onto Santa Monica Blvd.
Yep, that's LA county.

IMO, if stopped by most (any) LAPD/LASD and they see anything firearms related, know you're going to get hassled. I think they do this because they're not used to seeing good, honest, hard working citizens armed so they go into this "us vs them" mode. I've never been stopped (knock on wood) while carrying legally so I can't comment on OC vs LA, but I read OC LEO's are a little more lenient due to the fact that they're seeing more OC residence obtaining their CCW permits.

Last edited by slixx1320; 08-14-2019 at 5:13 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-16-2019, 8:04 PM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Democratic Peopleís Republic of Gavin
Posts: 2,714
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

With a snap like “WHAT PROBABLE CAUSE DO YOU HAVE....?” At minimum, he’d be let loose with a ticket for the VC violation.
__________________



ďPay attention. Iím educating you and Iím using small words.Ē -Mark Levin

-Life member, NRA
-ΙΧΘΥΣ <><
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-19-2019, 9:39 AM
lavey29 lavey29 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,124
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

I thought that case law already determined that traffic stops are inherently dangerous and allows for the officer to have the driver step out and a pat down for officer safety. Pretty sure that also would include a limited visual search of the drivers side of the vehicle similar to a protective sweep at a residence before allowing the driver to re-enter his vehicle pending completion of the traffic stop.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:49 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.