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  #41  
Old 09-09-2019, 9:10 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
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What's interesting here is that a lot of folks here are levying a criticism of "having an axe to grind," a bias or some other mental/emotional process that distorts information to come up with a predetermined outcome.

Here's the newsflash for you -- we all do. And nowhere is this more apparent than in discussions of faith. We all know Aslan is Muslim. Okay, so what? Does he have something useful to offer you as a scholar about your understanding of your own faith? I think so. But take it or leave it.

Once again, irony rears its head. To think that you are somehow objective in your assessment of his information is naive at best and horribly vain at worst. We are all biased. We know Aslan's bias. But do you know your own? If you are a committed, lifelong follower of Jesus, come hell or high water, and committed to expanding his church, then you have a bias as well. You are going to have a very difficult time accepting information that challenges your point of view. You have an axe, too. Welcome to humanity.
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2019, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
What's interesting here is that a lot of folks here are levying a criticism of "having an axe to grind," a bias or some other mental/emotional process that distorts information to come up with a predetermined outcome.

Here's the newsflash for you -- we all do. And nowhere is this more apparent than in discussions of faith. We all know Aslan is Muslim. Okay, so what? Does he have something useful to offer you as a scholar about your understanding of your own faith? I think so. But take it or leave it.

Once again, irony rears its head. To think that you are somehow objective in your assessment of his information is naive at best and horribly vain at worst. We are all biased. We know Aslan's bias. But do you know your own? If you are a committed, lifelong follower of Jesus, come hell or high water, and committed to expanding his church, then you have a bias as well. You are going to have a very difficult time accepting information that challenges your point of view. You have an axe, too. Welcome to humanity.

Maybe, since you acknowledge this personís bias and agenda, you can simply share how it fueled your own bias and agenda, allow we your audience to appreciate that you were inspired by this person, without demanding we agree with it, and be satisfied?

That sentence had a lot of commas.

I can promise you that I listened to the video with an intellectually-honest open mind (I didnít know anything of the man when I watched it) but certainly held the content up against what I already knew. Things that are factual are factual regardless of bias. Things that are slanted or misrepresented to further an opinion can be challenged without agenda. Whether thatís whatís happening here is up for debate.

So, thanks for sharing and soliciting feedback. I am happy you did.


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  #43  
Old 09-09-2019, 9:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ilikeguns View Post
Just watched the video. Thatís the lamest bunch of facts ever. The news flash is really that he was not white or black or from China but he was Jewish? That apart from the gospels we know that he was arrested for preaching about the kingdom of God? That we know a whole lot about Rome and the land he was in at that time? I canít believe this guy has made that much money on this book, which says nothing new about anything other than his running commentary which is not steeped in science but opinionated observation. This was dumb
I'm with you on that first part. But there are some fashionable trends in academia that need to get squashed for their absurdity. Too often, academics are speaking or writing to other academics, not the general public.

Steeped in science? This is history, not physics. "Social sciences" as they are called, are not real sciences. Things aren't really proven or disproved so much as supported by evidence or not supported by evidence. The difference is huge. Only naive historians think of themselves as practicing a true science. Archaeology is closer to a real science but still mostly like history.
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  #44  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
Maybe, since you acknowledge this personís bias and agenda, you can simply share how it fueled your own bias and agenda, allow we your audience to appreciate that you were inspired by this person, without demanding we agree with it, and be satisfied?

That sentence had a lot of commas.

I can promise you that I listened to the video with an intellectually-honest open mind (I didnít know anything of the man when I watched it) but certainly held the content up against what I already knew. Things that are factual are factual regardless of bias. Things that are slanted or misrepresented to further an opinion can be challenged without agenda. Whether thatís whatís happening here is up for debate.

So, thanks for sharing and soliciting feedback. I am happy you did.


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I won't demand that anybody do anything. But I'll humor myself by goading people into dealing with information that they all too quickly dismiss. As I've said on this forum before, I'm not a Christian. But I'd be happy to see other folks being the best Christians they can be. If folks want to believe in sea monsters, I don't care a lick. But if they're going to cite the Bible as proof of sea monsters while saying that all unbelievers are damned to Hell or that all other evidence against sea monsters is biased or tainted somehow, then I'm going to have some fun poking holes in their arguments. If there were a Wiccan who was on this forum and thought that all Christians were idiots or somehow incapable of understanding history, I'd be just as argumentative.

My bias? I'm human, for one. I can go into some personal stories but its nothing traumatic or something that requires revenge of any kind. I have a good life and some spare time to argue on the internet. But my main bias is that I don't let my ideas or my beliefs get in the way of understanding history. And, as I read, I resolved to let the evidence speak for itself, rather than allow it to hold me captive to some sort of ideology. So I can be very wishy-washy at times and it's hard to know where I stand on matters of faith. I hardly take my own ideas and beliefs very seriously and that is partly intentional. I've been a fundamentalist in a former life and didn't like what that made me. So I keep an open mind with a keen understanding that my ignorance will always be greater than my knowledge.

But I'll say that I've been at this a long time. Personal stories are better over beers, face to face with a real person, than internet forums. So I won't get into details. Suffice it to say that while most of you were goofing off as teens and young adults without much concern with the details of religion, I was teaching classes, filling in for pastors and leading groups of anywhere from 30-300+ people in studies of the Bible. I've probably forgotten much more than a lot of folks will ever know.

Call it my own Solomonic journey, I've learned a ton over the years, earned degrees, traveled and even continued my readings informally for the last 20 years. It has all led me to a far more simple understanding of the world -- believe whatever helps get you through your day and never let your ideas take priority over relationships. Everything else is just vanity. That's my bias.
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  #45  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
I won't demand that anybody do anything. But I'll humor myself by goading people into dealing with information that they all too quickly dismiss. As I've said on this forum before, I'm not a Christian. But I'd be happy to see other folks being the best Christians they can be. If folks want to believe in sea monsters, I don't care a lick. But if they're going to cite the Bible as proof of sea monsters while saying that all unbelievers are damned to Hell or that all other evidence against sea monsters is biased or tainted somehow, then I'm going to have some fun poking holes in their arguments. If there were a Wiccan who was on this forum and thought that all Christians were idiots or somehow incapable of understanding history, I'd be just as argumentative.



My bias? I'm human, for one. I can go into some personal stories but its nothing traumatic or something that requires revenge of any kind. I have a good life and some spare time to argue on the internet. But my main bias is that I don't let my ideas or my beliefs get in the way of understanding history. And, as I read, I resolved to let the evidence speak for itself, rather than allow it to hold me captive to some sort of ideology. So I can be very wishy-washy at times and it's hard to know where I stand on matters of faith. I hardly take my own ideas and beliefs very seriously and that is partly intentional. I've been a fundamentalist in a former life and didn't like what that made me. So I keep an open mind with a keen understanding that my ignorance will always be greater than my knowledge.



But I'll say that I've been at this a long time. Personal stories are better over beers, face to face with a real person, than internet forums. So I won't get into details. Suffice it to say that while most of you were goofing off as teens and young adults without much concern with the details of religion, I was teaching classes, filling in for pastors and leading groups of anywhere from 30-300+ people in studies of the Bible. I've probably forgotten much more than a lot of folks will ever know.



Call it my own Solomonic journey, I've learned a ton over the years, earned degrees, traveled and even continued my readings informally for the last 20 years. It has all led me to a far more simple understanding of the world -- believe whatever helps get you through your day and never let your ideas take priority over relationships. Everything else is just vanity. That's my bias.


All said, you knew people would disagree, you wanted people to disagree, and no actual intellectual pursuit was planned.

Thanks.


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  #46  
Old 09-10-2019, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
All said, you knew people would disagree, you wanted people to disagree, and no actual intellectual pursuit was planned.

Thanks.


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Lol, spot on.
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  #47  
Old 09-10-2019, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
What's interesting here is that a lot of folks here are levying a criticism of "having an axe to grind," a bias or some other mental/emotional process that distorts information to come up with a predetermined outcome.

Here's the newsflash for you -- we all do. And nowhere is this more apparent than in discussions of faith. We all know Aslan is Muslim. Okay, so what? Does he have something useful to offer you as a scholar about your understanding of your own faith? I think so. But take it or leave it.

Once again, irony rears its head. To think that you are somehow objective in your assessment of his information is naive at best and horribly vain at worst. We are all biased. We know Aslan's bias. But do you know your own? If you are a committed, lifelong follower of Jesus, come hell or high water, and committed to expanding his church, then you have a bias as well. You are going to have a very difficult time accepting information that challenges your point of view. You have an axe, too. Welcome to humanity.
i shake my head similarly at atheists that claim they would be just as good a person in the complete absence of religion.
of course i have to point out that they, having the benefit of growing up in a judeo/christian society, they cannot possibly guess what they would be like without this religious moral foundation. it is inescapable, even if you never set foot in a church or synagogue.
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  #48  
Old 09-13-2019, 3:34 PM
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i shake my head similarly at atheists that claim they would be just as good a person in the complete absence of religion.
of course i have to point out that they, having the benefit of growing up in a judeo/christian society, they cannot possibly guess what they would be like without this religious moral foundation. it is inescapable, even if you never set foot in a church or synagogue.
Yes, but this is a modern phenomenon, not a permanent state of affairs in the scheme of human history. We've been around for over 200k years as homosapien (not including our other hominid ancestors), only about 4k years with any sort of Abrahamic religion and even that was pretty darned obscure among humans up until the Christianization of Rome. To say that humans are amoral without religion is a bit disingenuous -- both because humans can moral with or without religious beliefs but also because, as a species, we've never been without some sort of religion in some form -- even if just animism (our first and longest-running religion).

Morality and religion are like the Cub Scout Law (A scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Courteous, Kind...) in that it is not really a set of values practiced by the members so much as an agreed-upon set of values that the members are striving toward. So with regard to kids in scouting, the law is something they're working on, not something they possess any better than other kids. Same with Judeo-Christian morals -- they're a set of values that adherents are working on, not something they actually do any better than average. In other words, we're all still human.
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  #49  
Old 09-13-2019, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
All said, you knew people would disagree, you wanted people to disagree, and no actual intellectual pursuit was planned.

Thanks.


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I don't think a true intellectual pursuit can be accomplished by people with differing views without some sort of disagreement. If we all agreed, what would we have to talk about?
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