How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California

[Toby's Tactical]

Having just gone through this process, I can tell you what I experienced in response to all of your questions. You should verify everything to your satisfaction since there are endless pages of local, state, and federal codes that change often.

Is it possible to get and FFL without ever having the intentions of going into business?

No. There is a box on the ATF form that asks this question and says don't bother if you don't plan on making it a profitable business

Do you need to be 'in business' to complete PPTs?

Yes and no. You have to get your FFL and complete lots of other business-related forms and licenses. But you can't get those unless the ATF thinks you are forming a legitimate business. If you tell them you plan on doing PPT's as your business, they will probably issue the license.

If you get a FFL are you now exempt from the 10-day wait?

Yes, for any firearms you buy for your business. Then you can transfer them to yourself with no waiting period. You do not need to file a form 4473 or do a NICS check. I think all you have to do is record the transaction in your bound book (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brad...-transfer-nics). Similar rules apply to disposition of firearms from your collection (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.125a)

Basically I am considering getting an FFL if I can circumvent the 10-day wait for myself and maybe knock out a few PPTs a year for people I know. I would be based out of my house and 100% non-profit. I wouldn't be looking to write anything off on my taxes.

Again the ATF wants you to be running a profitable business. Treat it as such when you apply. However, I will let you know that with all of the license fees, insurance, etc. it's not cheap. I've spent well over $1000 on fees and I'm barely up and running. It's going to take a long time to get that back if you are just doing PPT's.

Maybe if I won the loto or made a killin’ the NYSE then would I consider opening a store. In which case I realize I would need the business license.... etc.

If you win the lotto or beat the stock market, buy all the guns you want from an existing shop and don't mess with the headache of opening a shop. Spend your days shootin' and collectin' guns and not working.

[Toby's Tactical]

Originally Posted by sigman2012

So I was following this forum and I got the idea that I wanted to run an FFL out of my home. After calling the San Jose business licence deaprtment they said oh yeah sure no problem, BUT you should call your local PD first. So I did and I actually talked to a nice guy and he said in this day and age it is IMPOSSILE. A couple years ago, yes it was possible.

He said his friend had one and gave it up because the ATF was bugging him at all times of the day at least every few months. Too much of a hassle. He said commercially it is possible, but in a residential district it will not happen. You can get so far with a business license, a FFL, but the road block is the second hand dealer license allowing you to take items on consignment and such.

San Jose Municipal Code expressly prohibits firearm sales and service as a home-based business. It's one thing for the planning department to issue you a business permit. They will likely do so. The bottom of my (Mountain View) permit says that I still need to follow city code. It's not the business permit office's job to interpret the city code. They just issue the licenses.

[t-1]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I'm about a week into the process..Got the business name listed with the county recorder and fictitious name running in the paper as we speak.

I'm fortunate that I live in a county that doesn't require a business license and I'm in an unincorporated area so we shall see if that helps or hurts..

Got my sellers permit and ATF sending me finger print cards in the mail. Will knock out my COE tonight and wait for Live Scan and prints. So far the fees have been….

Business name recorded with the clerk---$30
Sellers permit --Free from BOE
Fictitious name statement in the paper $140
AFT FFL App $200


Prints and Live Scan seen to run about $100…keep your finders crossed..

[Toby's Tactical]

I recently obtained my FFL (07) and SOT, both for manufacturing/sales so I can comment on all of these fees you're going to see. I hope this helps a lot of people who are interested in obtaining their FFL. We see that $150-$200 FFL fee and get excited but there's so much more to it.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Even if your county doesn't require a business license, you will still need to deal with the local firearms license but it's probably free. Mine was came from Mountain View Police Department; still took a month.

As far as fingerprinting and passport photos for FFL, that cost me $65 (photos + rolling fee on cards but I got an extra fingerprints on paper and photos done for future use), but for the DOJ COE fingerprinting, that cost me $91 ($54 DOJ + $19 FBI + $18 Livescan rolling)

I dug through my records for the following approximate fees and expenses I paid:
California Firearms Dealer license: $115 (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#3G)
Mag Stripe Reader: $54
Bound book or software: $3 (potentially hundreds if you want to do the electronic version but $3 is a steal at Brownells.)
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Application: $75
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Training: $100 (very few can give this class. This and the instructor status are required to both administer the HSC and verify the safe handling demonstration. You could hire someone to come in and do this for you but you'd have to do it every time you got a new customer for the HSC and then again for handgun pickup handling demonstration.)
Handgun Safety Certificates: $150 (book of 10 minimum)
Insurance: $varies but likely hundreds to thousands a year
SOT: $500 (totally optional but you know you want it. Received mine in about a week.)

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

[t-1]

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical

I recently obtained my FFL (07) and SOT, both for manufacturing/sales so I can comment on all of these fees you're going to see. I hope this helps a lot of people who are interested in obtaining their FFL. We see that $150-$200 FFL fee and get excited but there's so much more to it.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Even if your county doesn't require a business license, you will still need to deal with the local firearms license but it's probably free. Mine was came from Mountain View Police Department; still took a month.

As far as fingerprinting and passport photos for FFL, that cost me $65 (photos + rolling fee on cards but I got an extra fingerprints on paper and photos done for future use), but for the DOJ COE fingerprinting, that cost me $91 ($54 DOJ + $19 FBI + $18 Livescan rolling)

I dug through my records for the following approximate fees and expenses I paid:
California Firearms Dealer license: $115 (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#3G)
Mag Stripe Reader: $54
Bound book or software: $3 (potentially hundreds if you want to do the electronic version but $3 is a steal at Brownells.)
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Application: $75
Handgun Safety Certificate Program Certified Instructor Training: $100 (very few can give this class. This and the instructor status are required to both administer the HSC and verify the safe handling demonstration. You could hire someone to come in and do this for you but you'd have to do it every time you got a new customer for the HSC and then again for handgun pickup handling demonstration.)
Handgun Safety Certificates: $150 (book of 10 minimum)
Insurance: $varies but likely hundreds to thousands a year
SOT: $500 (totally optional but you know you want it. Received mine in about a week.)

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

Again sir--thanks in advance. You truly are a wealth of information! I just heard the term "Firearms dealer license" this past Friday when I got a callback from DOJ. Of all the things that surprise me (so far) is the difference in dealing with ATF and DOJ…The DOJ folks have all been very accommodating and helpful. The ATF folk--um..not really rude, just short and a bit "stiff" I guess.

I have a lunch date with the Sheriff in my area. Huge gun guy and very pro-business so I'll let you know how that goes.

Again--thanks so much for your help. After seeing you're in the MV area, I'm about four hours away, and if this things pans out am excited to have a resource I can go to.

I may PM you in the future for sensitive issues if that's alright.

[efillc]

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical

I'm sure there's something I'm missing but so far we're up to $650+ more for you. I figure I've spent about $1000 just on all these fees and expenses. I don't think anyone can do it for much less as a legitimate business. And then don't forget marketing, stock, etc. Good luck with it all. Don't hesitate to ask for details or help.

You forgot the big kahuna for 06's, 07's, and 10's:
PMDDTC ITAR Registration

[Toby's Tactical]

He didn't say he had one of those types and stated $200 for the fee so I assumed it was 01. But yeah, if you get one of those types and do any manufacturing, the consensus is to pay the fee ($2250).

[t-1]

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical

He didn't say he had one of those types and stated $200 for the fee so I assumed it was 01. But yeah, if you get one of those types and do any manufacturing, the consensus is to pay the fee ($2250).

Yeah--just keeping it basic…walked into my local ATF office the yesterday and got more out of a 15 minute face to face talk then I did with a 40 minute phone call. Got prints and Live Scan done…getting closer...

[t-1]

Sent FFL app out today along with DOJ COE. Spoke with local ATF AIC and she said give it about 4 weeks to hear something...weight off my shoulders just getting that part done. Now----I wait.....

[Toby's Tactical]

Finally received my CFD in the mail today. That took 2 weeks (literally). The entire process took over 5 months and cost me over $1000. If you can't tell by the long thread, this is not something you should do just to save a few bucks on some guns. However, if you have a passion for firearms and are patient, you can make it happen. I just got a request for an AOW. I wasn't planning to jump off the deep end of the pool but it looks like I just got pushed in!

[jerryballs]

I have read all of these details and I am still a bit foggy.

I am looking to start an FFL07 shop and I am in a county that business license is not required. Would my order be as follows:

1.) get approval letter from zoning/planning
2.)send in FFL paperwork wth Check for fees
3.) File for COE (anytime is ok?)
4.) wait for FFL approval then file for CFD?


I am more curious about process and what needs to be sent in with oringinal FFL paperwork. Meaning the zoning letter, etc... I currently have approval to proceed as long as enviromental, building, fire, and sheriff sign off my use permit/plans. I am wondering if I can send my paperwork in now before I have something in writing from planning (they have already given me paper outlining firearms is an ok use). It sounds like the BATF only wants to see that letter when they visit. is this correct?

Your help is much appreciated as this is a laboring process.

[Toby's Tactical]

Here's the short answer:
1) I don't think you need an approval "letter". For me, the ATF just wanted the city to say there was no restriction. My city planning department screwed up and said I couldn't have my FFL at home which was incorrect. I had to go up the line until I found someone who could clearly say it was not restricted. The final result was an email to the ATF to that effect. If you have a letter, it might save you the trouble I ran into, but I don't see it as a requirement up front. They wouldn't issue the FFL to me until the city said no problem.
2) Send in FFl any time. It's one of the first things I did after checking my city code, mainly the home-based business section.
3) Get your COE any time. You'll need it to submit the CFD.
4) Wait until you get your FFL and send a copy to the DOJ for the CFD. The DOJ encourages submittal of the Large Capacity Magazine Permit at the same time.

[jerryballs]

Thank you so much sir!!

[Toby's Tactical]

I should clarify that of the required documents on the CFD application, there are two items that look similar but are not:
2) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
5) A license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority of any city, county or city and county.
#2 says ANY and may not apply to everyone. In my city this is a "Business License". Mine was $30.
#5 says license and in my city is called a "Firearms license". This one is essentially required as indicated here: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#1G. I'm not sure what option 1 means "In the form prescribed by the Attorney General". But options 2 and 3 mean you have to get a letter that says "Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" or a letter from similar authority that says no such license exists. I ended up with "option" 2 from my local police and was free.

[Toby's Tactical]

To clarify any FUD, the latest ATF newsletter has a section on 'Residence as a Licensed Business Premises' or in other words: home-based. Having just obtained my FFL at home, I can say the ATF never questioned it.

See the newsletter here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2012-11.pdf. Section is on the right of page 6.

[Burbur]

After reading all this, other threads here and everything at every other site linked, I find it hard to believe that the differences between opening a retail gunstore and a full blown manufacturing facility are: zoning and a compliance fee to the Department of State.

Am I missing something? If I want to start machining lowers from billets/forgings and other various parts, I only need:

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

5. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/registration/index.html

I'm shocked the State of California doesn't have additional hoops for manufacturers. Or do they?

[Toby's Tactical]

That's all I needed to get my 07 FFL, at home no less. Only my city had a regulation against "machining" on their home-based business restrictions. So I'm not machining at home right now. Out of the entire process, my city was the biggest PITA, mainly because the planning department didn't know their own regulations. ATF and state were quite easy.

[SMOKINGUNS]

I am going through the process now, waiting on the COE approval at the moment before the final app for Centralized list. My question is to those that have gone through the process; I had my visit prior to getting approved for FFL - the ATFE Agent spent about 4.5 hours with me ensuring I knew what was necessary or Federal Law were. Does CA DOJ do somerhing similar or are you on your own to review their website and hopefully understand or get everytjing in order to what CA requires and don't screw something up? Helpful answers would be appreciated. All permits, local Licenses, & Chief LOE approvals are in order just waiting on the "speedy" processing of California applications. Thanks

[Burbur]

Don't know, yet.

Try calling the CA DOJ Firearms Div field office, 916-227-7527

[Toby's Tactical]

I don't think I spoke with a single CA DOJ person nor did they do a visit.

[intradubio]

according to http://www.msa2.saccounty.net/ce/cod...eBusiness.aspx

"No products shall be sold on the premises except artist’s originals."

So how do people do home based FFLs in Sac county?

If you can't do home based and the process takes months, when do you actually need the storefront? I wouldn't want to pay rent for a long time before I get the FFL.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by intradubio

So how do people do home based FFLs in Sac county?

I suspect that they don't. LA County is basically the same way. The delivery issue is interesting since how to you restrict UPS, FedEx or USPS from making a delivery more than once per week?

If you can't do home based and the process takes months, when do you actually need the storefront? I wouldn't want to pay rent for a long time before I get the FFL.

You would need the location when you start the FFL application. Yes, it means it is very expensive. Unless the landlord knows months in advance that a tenant was leaving, you would have to get a lease before you start.

[gtcleric]

Is it possible to operate out of the same storefront as another ffl?

[Toby's Tactical]

I believe it is not a problem for 2 FFL's to occupy the same space. The only strange thing I remember from the state is that any dealers using the same space would have the same CFD number. You'll have to verify that with the DOJ.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical

I believe it is not a problem for 2 FFL's to occupy the same space. The only strange thing I remember from the state is that any dealers using the same space would have the same CFD number. You'll have to verify that with the DOJ.

I don't think that they would have the same CFD number since that includes specific information on the FFL.

There would be problems with two FFLs in the same same, but nothing illegal. You would have to be very careful to keep things separate and if a firearm is found which is not logged into either book, that could be a serious issue for both. Separation would be critical.

[gottano44]

I just went through the process, wow! it only took six months....I am running out of my home (garage)for now. I would like to know if ATF is going to penalize me for not running a profitable business. I'm thinking it would be profitable if I could gets some guns to sell.....So far the only wholeseller's who will deal with me has been RSR, Lipsey's and Davidson's due to it being a home based business. Problem is they don't have any handguns to buy.
I have a list of 35 people who want products, they just don't want shotguns or rifles....

[lawman18]

I have been thinking of doing this as a side business. My Friend was an FFL dealer before his wife filed for divorce and he was forced to sell his inventory to pay for it. He and I have been talking about this for a few months but he swears that we can't do it out of our homes, we had to have a legitimate business location. I see plenty of guys with the home office thing going, is that no longer an option?

[EBR Works]

The decision as to whether you can be a home based FFL rests with your local zoning authority (city, county, etc.). If they approve you, ATF/DOJ does not care.

[ruddogg]

Originally Posted by EBR Works

The decision as to whether you can be a home based FFL rests with your local zoning authority (city, county, etc.). If they approve you, ATF/DOJ does not care.

I'm in the city of Irvine, Orange County, CA, I Googled, and there seems to be a few FFL's in Irvine. Anyone with first hand experience on how difficult it is to obtain a home-based FFL in Irvine?

Also, down the road, once I obtain my FFL, do we directly contact ie - Sig, Glock, to obtain inventory/stock? Or what distributors does one contact?

[rocking40ranch]

Just an FYI. I am in the process of getting my FFL in Mendocino County. While doing the research for the business license, I found that Mendocino County will not issue a business license without a copy of your approved FFL, then your BL is temporary until California DOJ approves you.

[amowery.am]

I am currently trying to figure out what forms I need to fill out to get my FFL mainly for transfers and I saw something on the CADOJ website, I guess is for importing ammo and rifles/ pistol. Excuse me if this is a stupid question but with that, does it mean I would be able to import from other countries?

[BigART71]

Subscribe.

I'm very much interested in learning more and seeing how it all works out for you all as I'm looking into obtaining an FFL for my current business.

[Germz]

Yea I'm interested in this too.

[BigART71]

Well I found my answer out. In Union City they do not allow residential FFL Dealers. It didn't say I couldn't have get a FFL Gunsmith Permit.

I was more interested in selling, but I'm SOL.


9.82.100 Permit conditions.
1. No firearms dealer permit will be issued to a person engaged in the business of selling, transferring, leasing or advertising for sale, transfer or lease, or offering or exposing for sale, transfer or lease any firearm from a residence.

[RaiseEmRight]

Well, after reading every thread in this forum, I embarked to meet the devil (all the players in San Diego who control applications for FFLs). What a trip that was. This forum was very helpful in providing a framework to plan it out. Now I know what it will take to get an FFL from my residence, from my main office (that is under lease in light industrial zoning), and from an industrial area that is also under lease. City Treasurer Department (Biz Tax Cert), City Planning Department (ZUCs), Police Department (whoa was that interesting & expensive). The City of San Diego wants to make money off FFL applicants, so if you want to do this inside the City limits today, it will run about $2,500 - $3,000 depending on the location and if you have to get lease language changes. Bottom line, it is far more expensive, far more complicated, and problematic than most can imagine. Anyway, thanks to all those who really know about this subject and posted good content.

[Arm*Me]

I have gone through all the process for my ffl and all I'm waiting for is my cfd# and it is on it's way, Doj called me yesterday. Am I good to go after that or do I have to have my place inspected and meet with a doj employee?

[kemasa]

All long as you have all of the required permits/licenses, you are good to go.

[Arm*Me]

Thanks kemasa, I guess when I get my cfd in the mail til have a disk or instructions on how to run the dros. I have the card swiper but don't have a clue as to how to utilize it!

[kemasa]

I am not sure if they give you instructions or not.

There is an online DROS manual. Once you get into the DROS for the person's information, you press F5, then run the card. F6 is for the seller for a PPT.

If you don't get information, then ask.

[ACI]

Well I started the process about 5 months ago. I already had a business so I already had a business license, a resale number and I am located in an industrial building.

I applied for my FFL and COE at the same time. I also got a letter from my city stating that they do not have a requirement for firearm dealers or manufactures to get a special permit.

Once I got my FFL and COE, I then sent in my application to the state and received my packet of stuff about 3 weeks later.

So this week I got my DROS account set up and have the computer ready to go.

It has not been a hard process, just a lot of paperwork.