CA FFL selling Off Roster handguns to average Joe

[TJW]

I found a CA FFL that has 2 Off-Roster handguns for sale and marked as New Old Stock (CA OK). I asked how they can sell Off Roster handguns to someone in CA unless the buyer is "Exempt". His answer was that the pistols are old and already registered in CA.

I'm a big fan of this manufacturer. I am Exempt from the CA Roster and have a few of their Off Roster pistols. So I'm very familiar with this manufacturer's discontinued models, current models, CA Models etc.

I'm certain one of these models was discontinued in the late 1990's.
The second pistol was probably manufactured between 2000-2010.
Neither are CA models and likely never have been.

Perhaps these 2 pistols were in the hands of a CA FFL prior to the DOJ Roster implementation. (I think 2001)

The selling FFL is a fairly new gun shop. I'm not sure how they acquired these 2 pistols to legally sell them as "New" to Non-Exempt CA residents.

What am I missing?

[ugimports]

Sounds like consignment. I'm not sure how he would process the DROS otherwise.

[TJW]

Originally Posted by ugimports

Sounds like consignment. I'm not sure how he would process the DROS otherwise.

I thought that as a possibility, but 2 things.

Both pistols are listed as "New". If on consignment they should not be marked as "New Old Stock. If previously purchased by someone, I'd think the pistols should be marked as "Used".

Both are listed for sale online (GB) as well and marked as "CA OK", meaning they will ship within CA. Again these are not CA Models and not on Roster.

I'm not sure if a CA FFL can ship a consignment Off Roster pistol to another CA FFL???? Even if shipped to a CA FFL for an Exempt buyer, can a consignment pistol be shipped to another FFL?

I'm not an FFL and don't know everything, but this seems odd.

[kingransom]

Doesn't matter if it's new old stock, if it's not currently on the roster he cannot sell it to you unless it's a consignment where another private party brought the firearm into him to sell for them. If there's no third party involved, that FFL owns that pistol and he cannot sell it to anybody unless they are exempt from the roster. Some of these ffls are their own worst enemy, once they get audited they'll probably lose their license

[kingransom]

That being said, if he's selling them at a decent price jump all over it and let him deal with the fallout down the road.

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by kingransom

Doesn't matter if it's new old stock, if it's not currently on the roster he cannot sell it to you unless it's a consignment where another private party brought the firearm into him to sell for them. If there's no third party involved, that FFL owns that pistol and he cannot sell it to anybody unless they are exempt from the roster. Some of these ffls are their own worst enemy, once they get audited they'll probably lose their license

Yup...or they'll learn after they ship it that the recipient can't get it transferred and then have to eat the return shipping fees..

If they don't understand the basic fundamentals of on/off-roster they are going to make several other mistakes very quickly.

[Djantlive]

Some ffl sell new off roaster pistols at a premium (2-2.5x msrp). They import them into CA through transfers and then ppt to you. These guns are never shot unlike your typical consignment.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by Djantlive

Some ffl sell new off roaster pistols at a premium (2-2.5x msrp). They import them into CA through transfers and then ppt to you. These guns are never shot unlike your typical consignment.

Thats illegal. OH and FYI, all of our guns come from out of state

[kingransom]

Djantlive.
Are you speculating on this or have you spoken to ffls who have told you that they do this? Just how would they be able to import an off roster firearm and then sell it to a private party legally?

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by kingransom

Djantlive.
Are you speculating on this or have you spoken to ffls who have told you that they do this? Just how would they be able to import an off roster firearm and then sell it to a private party legally?

I can bring in any handgun i want. I just can't sell it to a non exempt individual.

[TJW]

Originally Posted by Djantlive

Some ffl sell new off roaster pistols at a premium (2-2.5x msrp). They import them into CA through transfers and then ppt to you. These guns are never shot unlike your typical consignment.

Sounds sketchy, probably illegal, if I'm understanding you position here. FFL Buys off roster pistol then sells it through their FFL as a private party transfer to a non-exempt CA resident.

[kingransom]

Originally Posted by taperxz

I can bring in any handgun i want. I just can't sell it to a non exempt individual.

You are correct and I'm completely aware of that, but what the poster said was that the FFL was importing guns and then PPT to you. That's very different than you importing a gun as an FFL and selling it to a roster exempt person. PPT would infer that there's a third party involved in the transaction which wouldn't be the case based off of what he was suggesting that the FFL is doing

[TJW]

Both pistols are listed with a price of what an equivalent new model MSRP sells for. There isn't an Off-Roster markup per se.

I asked how they can sell Off Roster handguns to someone in CA unless the buyer is "Exempt". His answer was that the pistols are old and already registered in CA.

These are on display inside a CA FFL marked as "CA OK New Old Stock" and listed for sale on online (GB) as "CA OK", which to me means they will ship within CA.

I'm gonna ask them is these are consignment pistols and await their reply.

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by TJW

Both pistols are listed with a price of what an equivalent new model MSRP sells for. There isn't an Off-Roster markup per se. I am "Exempt" from the Roster anyway, so selling them to me would be legal, but I didn't tell them I'm "Exempt".

I asked how they can sell Off Roster handguns to someone in CA unless the buyer is "Exempt". His answer was that the pistols are old and already registered in CA.

These are on display inside a CA FFL marked as "CA OK New Old Stock" and listed for sale on online (GB) as "CA OK", which to me means they will ship within CA.

I'm gonna ask them is these are consignment pistols and await their reply.

Why? It doesn't impact you either way... are you going to call up the DOJ on them? Can you send me the gunbroker ad? I may buy it just to educate them on how it's not CA legal when I then tell them that I cannot complete the transfer.

[kingransom]

Tjw
Wouldn't matter if the firearms were registered in California or not. If they are the property of the FFL and not a third party consignor he can only sell to a roster exempt person. Sometimes I wonder whether these ffls honestly don't know the law or if they use total lack of judgment based on the fact that they see extra money coming in from an off roster firearm. If it's door number two I really have no pity if the doj cracks down on them

[Djantlive]

These off rosters are transferred to CA legally through Intra family or from someone moving into CA. Then ffl ca ppt to you. All are legal.

[TJW]

Originally Posted by ugimports

Why? It doesn't impact you either way... are you going to call up the DOJ on them? Can you send me the gunbroker ad? I may buy it just to educate them on how it's not CA legal when I then tell them that I cannot complete the transfer.

No I'm not going to report them as my intention is to see if maybe there was something I'm unaware of that would allow a CA FFL to sell to an Off-Roster pistol to a CA Non-Exempt person. My intent was to ask here in the FFL forum to educate myself by the knowledgeable answers from you guys. I will PM you the GB listing momentarily.

[TJW]

Originally Posted by Djantlive

These off rosters are transferred to CA legally through Intra family or from someone moving into CA. Then ffl ca ppt to you. All are legal.

I don't think so, wouldn't the seller need to be present at PPT transfer? Don't both buyer and seller need be present at same time/location at a CA FFL to complete a PPT in front of a employee of FFL?

I understand consignment would not need both buyer and seller present at the same time. But for PPT, I think both must be present at same time in front of FFL for completion of paperwork etc.

[TJW]

ugimports, PM sent with GB listing.

[ugimports]

Originally Posted by TJW

I don't think so, wouldn't the seller need to be present at PPT transfer? Don't both buyer and seller need be present at same time/location at a CA FFL to complete a PPT in front of a employee of FFL?

I understand consignment would not need both buyer and seller present at the same time. But for PPT, I think both must be present at same time in front of FFL for completion of paperwork etc.

I think the other guys is saying some FFLs are PPTing their personal guns. While that's a possibility it doesn't explain what they told you and why it would make it legal to ship to transfer to another FFL.

[ugimports]

I emailed the gun store via gunbroker:

I have a customer that was interested in purchasing this. It's not on the CA DOJ Roster, why do you have it marked "CA OK"? I would not be able to transfer this to them.

Their response:

I apologize for the confusion. It’s originally only available to transfer in store at our location. I will remove the CA mark as it’s caused this misunderstanding.

So it's a consignment or ppt. They may not have explained it very well when talking to the OP.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by TJW

I don't think so, wouldn't the seller need to be present at PPT transfer? Don't both buyer and seller need be present at same time/location at a CA FFL to complete a PPT in front of a employee of FFL?

I understand consignment would not need both buyer and seller present at the same time. But for PPT, I think both must be present at same time in front of FFL for completion of paperwork etc.

Not necessarily at the same time (though that's most common), but at least seller then buyer serially at the same FFL.

[TJW]

Originally Posted by ugimports

I emailed the gun store via gunbroker:


Their response:


So it's a consignment or ppt. They may not have explained it very well when talking to the OP.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Thanks to all for their comments.

[ronlglock]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Not necessarily at the same time (though that's most common), but at least seller then buyer serially at the same FFL.

There is something called a DROS Worksheet which allows for the buyer and seller to show separately. As librarian says, the seller needs to show up first.

Seller completes the worksheet and then the actual DROS is submitted when the buyer is there using the seller’s info from the worksheet.

I venture that many FFLs don’t know how to use a DROS worksheet though.

[painkiller]

What are these off roster guns?