gun shop purchase of used off roster handgun

[Highlander751]

How would I handle this. For example a LEO comes into my shop and wants to sell me his off roster Glock 17 gen 5. So the gun would be a CA registered used off roster handgun. The only way I see to DROS the gun to a non-exempt person would be a PPT. Would I have to do a PPT to myself (costing me a DROS fee)? It would then not be on my A&D book.

Any thoughts on this. I called the DROS hotline and got a newbie (who was very nice) but no help.

Merry Christmas everyone!
Robert

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by Highlander751

How would I handle this. For example a LEO comes into my shop and wants to sell me his off roster Glock 17 gen 5. So the gun would be a CA registered used off roster handgun. The only way I see to DROS the gun to a non-exempt person would be a PPT. Would I have to do a PPT to myself (costing me a DROS fee)? It would then not be on my A&D book.

Any thoughts on this. I called the DROS hotline and got a newbie (who was very nice) but no help.

Merry Christmas everyone!
Robert

You can’t do that. Once it’s in your inventory you can only sell it to exempt purchasers.

I suggest you get a 2nd hand license so that you could consign the off roster handgun.

no one on the DOJ hotline is going to advise you. They would rather give you enough rope to hang yourself

[JoyfulJoker]

I've bought off roster guns used at Triple A's in Vallejo. Whether they were on Consignment or not, I'm not sure.

[benjamin101677]

Alot of shops that have the consignment license will purchase the off roster handguns but put them on consignment process and give the seller their money. Seller is happy and the gun is re sold to anyone interested.

[kingransom]

Originally Posted by benjamin101677

Alot of shops that have the consignment license will purchase the off roster handguns but put them on consignment process and give the seller their money. Seller is happy and the gun is re sold to anyone interested.

You cannot just walk into a gun store and buy an off roster firearm unless you're exempt from the roster. If you could nobody would be selling sig365s on cal guns for $1,800 and getting it over and over and over. You would have to be law enforcement or exempt from the roster due to another position of yours in order to be able to walk in and buy an off roster firearm. You could do a private party transfer but both parties would have to be present in front of the FFL

[edgerly779]

If off roster on consignment then sales ok to public. Person that consigned it does not have to be present.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by kingransom

You cannot just walk into a gun store and buy an off roster firearm unless you're exempt from the roster. If you could nobody would be selling sig365s on cal guns for $1,800 and getting it over and over and over. You would have to be law enforcement or exempt from the roster due to another position of yours in order to be able to walk in and buy an off roster firearm. You could do a private party transfer but both parties would have to be present in front of the FFL

Uh, YES, you can just walk into a gun store and buy an off roster handgun that is there on consignment. I've done it at several shops in Ventura County.

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Uh, YES, you can just walk into a gun store and buy an off roster handgun that is there on consignment. I've done it at several shops in Ventura County.

At least once here also, at a shop that really knows their stuff.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

At least once here also, at a shop that really knows their stuff.

It’s not that they “know their stuff” you need to get licensed in order to sell used items FOR someone else that brings a gun in.

Not all gun dealers get licensed because it’s more red tape or they don’t have the space or clientele to bother with it. Most people end up doing PPT’s to avoid giving the store their cut in the deal.

[edgerly779]

Gretas on Simi has some consignment firearms. I have bought a few.

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by taperxz

It’s not that they “know their stuff” you need to get licensed in order to sell used items FOR someone else that brings a gun in.

Not all gun dealers get licensed because it’s more red tape or they don’t have the space or clientele to bother with it. Most people end up doing PPT’s to avoid giving the store their cut in the deal.

Goodness gracious. Why can't it just be I'm glad to patronize a shop that knows and complies with the law. I was able to get a nice piece at a lower price than usually asked for PPT here on CG.
ETA: they also get the paperwork done in an efficient manner.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

Goodness gracious. Why can't it just be I'm glad to patronize a shop that knows and complies with the law. I was able to get a nice piece at a lower price than usually asked for PPT here on CG.
ETA: they also get the paperwork done in an efficient manner.

You can say whatever you want but you’re way off topic for the discussion. You just don’t understand what’s being discussed is all

[eaglemike]

Originally Posted by taperxz

You can say whatever you want but you’re way off topic for the discussion. You just don’t understand what’s being discussed is all

Take a look at CSA's post - you going to jump him too?????
I just agreed with him and said I'd done the same thing and had a good experience.
You took offense. Goodness gracious.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by taperxz

It’s not that they “know their stuff” you need to get licensed in order to sell used items FOR someone else that brings a gun in.

Not all gun dealers get licensed because it’s more red tape or they don’t have the space or clientele to bother with it. Most people end up doing PPT’s to avoid giving the store their cut in the deal.

The bottom line is that it is 100% legal to walk into a gun shop in CA and purchase an off roster consignment handgun. Sure, some shops choose not to get the proper licensing to do so but, that doesn't make it illegal at other shops, does it? I agree that many people would rather do all the advertising, deal with the tire kickers, etc. than pay a shop to do it. It really depends on how much one values their time and energy.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by eaglemike

Take a look at CSA's post - you going to jump him too?????
I just agreed with him and said I'd done the same thing and had a good experience.
You took offense. Goodness gracious.

Zero offense taken. Not at all. I’m being strictly technical

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

The bottom line is that it is 100% legal to walk into a gun shop in CA and purchase an off roster consignment handgun. Sure, some shops choose not to get the proper licensing to do so but, that doesn't make it illegal at other shops, does it? I agree that many people would rather do all the advertising, deal with the tire kickers, etc. than pay a shop to do it. It really depends on how much one values their time and energy.

Who said anything was illegal?

But, ya! I always tell customers that consigning is like trading your car in. You don’t have the hassle of no shows and tire kickers but you do pay us for this service.

We also do direct buys of Rostered guns and long guns but a direct buy is going to pay out less since we give you cash on the spot and take the risk on the gun.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Who said anything was illegal?

This guy says it can't be done. That's what I was originally responding to.

Originally Posted by kingransom

You cannot just walk into a gun store and buy an off roster firearm unless you're exempt from the roster. If you could nobody would be selling sig365s on cal guns for $1,800 and getting it over and over and over. You would have to be law enforcement or exempt from the roster due to another position of yours in order to be able to walk in and buy an off roster firearm. You could do a private party transfer but both parties would have to be present in front of the FFL

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

This guy says it can't be done. That's what I was originally responding to.

Well, he did say PPT was ok though. He just didn’t know that both parties don’t need to be present and that a consignment is really just a PPT

[kingransom]

I should have clarified my original statement. Yes you can walk in and buy a consignment gun that is off roster no problem. But what calgunner Benjamin said was "Alot of shops that have the consignment license will purchase the off roster handguns but put them on consignment process and give the seller their money. Seller is happy and the gun is re sold to anyone interested"

By purchasing the gun from the seller, that FFL now owns the gun and cannot sell it to anybody unless they are exempt from the roster. What he posted and suggested is illegal to do. An FFL just can't give the money to a consigner ahead of time as that gun would then be property of the FFL and and not the consigner, therefore being held to a different set of rules

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by kingransom

I should have clarified my original statement. Yes you can walk in and buy a consignment gun that is off roster no problem. But what calgunner Benjamin said was "Alot of shops that have the consignment license will purchase the off roster handguns but put them on consignment process and give the seller their money. Seller is happy and the gun is re sold to anyone interested"

By purchasing the gun from the seller, that FFL now owns the gun and cannot sell it to anybody unless they are exempt from the roster. What he posted and suggested is illegal to do. An FFL just can't give the money to a consigner ahead of time as that gun would then be property of the FFL and and not the consigner, therefore being held to a different set of rules

I highly doubt "a lot" of shops would do that. There may be one or two but, if the shop actually did that, it would be caught during the audits, their FFL would be yanked and they would be looking at some major prison time. What shop would risk that?

[benjamin101677]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

I highly doubt "a lot" of shops would do that. There may be one or two but, if the shop actually did that, it would be caught during the audits, their FFL would be yanked and they would be looking at some major prison time. What shop would risk that?

This is how this works and I known several shops that do it. Someone brings in an off roster gun and wants to sell it. The shop has them fill out the consignment form. The gun is now on consignment okay to be sold in the store as a consignment gun and transferred once the 30 days are up. The gun shop gives the person there agreed upon price at that point. Person walks out with their money the gun is on consignment and resold to any customer whom wants to pay the price. There are no rules about when someone gets their consignment gun fees paid to them. I have seen this happen in 3 different gun shops.

I have seen another gun shop where the owner personally buys the off roster for himself, than after buying the off roster guns "decides" he doesn't want them and re-sell to anyone at the store.

I have traveled a lot to purchase guns in the last few years. I have noticed that the understanding of gun laws are night and day between shops and areas. Central and Northern California usually are the areas that gun transactions are the easiest to do. The Bay Area and Southern California are in their own different worlds when it comes to gun laws and transactions.

[benjamin101677]

Originally Posted by kingransom

I should have clarified my original statement. Yes you can walk in and buy a consignment gun that is off roster no problem. But what calgunner Benjamin said was "Alot of shops that have the consignment license will purchase the off roster handguns but put them on consignment process and give the seller their money. Seller is happy and the gun is re sold to anyone interested"

By purchasing the gun from the seller, that FFL now owns the gun and cannot sell it to anybody unless they are exempt from the roster. What he posted and suggested is illegal to do. An FFL just can't give the money to a consigner ahead of time as that gun would then be property of the FFL and and not the consigner, therefore being held to a different set of rules

Gun laws and how they are used vary majorly from my experience based on what parts of California your in. Central California I can guarantee you in multiple shops we can walk in with a off roster gun say we want to sell it. The shop will fill out the paperwork for us as if it is a consignment. Pay you a agreed upon price, give you the money that day. The gun will sit for 30 days before it will be transferred and that off roster handgun will eventually go to a new home of someone who is non exempt regular citizen.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by benjamin101677

This is how this works and I known several shops that do it. Someone brings in an off roster gun and wants to sell it. The shop has them fill out the consignment form. The gun is now on consignment okay to be sold in the store as a consignment gun and transferred once the 30 days are up. The gun shop gives the person there agreed upon price at that point. Person walks out with their money the gun is on consignment and resold to any customer whom wants to pay the price. There are no rules about when someone gets their consignment gun fees paid to them. I have seen this happen in 3 different gun shops.

I have seen another gun shop where the owner personally buys the off roster for himself, than after buying the off roster guns "decides" he doesn't want them and re-sell to anyone at the store.

I have traveled a lot to purchase guns in the last few years. I have noticed that the understanding of gun laws are night and day between shops and areas. Central and Northern California usually are the areas that gun transactions are the easiest to do. The Bay Area and Southern California are in their own different worlds when it comes to gun laws and transactions.

There is no law against loaning someone money until a sale happens but, the shop is not buying the firearm from the seller. In fact, the seller is still the legal owner of the firearm and can always simply go to the shop and get it back. If the buyer fails the background check, the law is clear that the firearm gets returned to the seller. The FFL has no legal right to keep it other than any actual loan papers it may have using the firearm as collateral. Any FFL doing what you are explaining is risking having to go to civil court to explain his/her actions and, I'll bet CA DOJ would end up having a field day with that FFL afterwards.

What are the differences in CA gun laws in different areas of the state? Except for a few local laws, I haven't found any differences I've only purchased firearms between Chico and Orange County, including the Bay Area, Sac, the central valley, the IE and coastal areas from SLO to OC.

[benjamin101677]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

There is no law against loaning someone money until a sale happens but, the shop is not buying the firearm from the seller. In fact, the seller is still the legal owner of the firearm and can always simply go to the shop and get it back. If the buyer fails the background check, the law is clear that the firearm gets returned to the seller. The FFL has no legal right to keep it other than any actual loan papers it may have using the firearm as collateral. Any FFL doing what you are explaining is risking having to go to civil court to explain his/her actions and, I'll bet CA DOJ would end up having a field day with that FFL afterwards.

What are the differences in CA gun laws in different areas of the state? Except for a few local laws, I haven't found any differences I've only purchased firearms between Chico and Orange County, including the Bay Area, Sac, the central valley, the IE and coastal areas from SLO to OC.

Consignment situation is different, the gun put into consignment is put into a system just like a pawn shop situation where the description, serial number, etc. is submitted to the local law enforcement agency for that jurisdiction. That's why the gun sits for 30 days before the shop will allow transfer of gun to a new buyer. Once the gun is in consignment system even if the owner who put such weapon into consignment wants the gun back; the owner has to go through a 10 days waiting period again. Can't just simply walk in and take the possession back of the gun at that point. When you put a gun on consignment you are given a copy of the consignment form and will never get a sellers like copy in a private party situation.

If the new buyer flunked the background for purchase of the gun it would just go back into the consignment of the shop to be re-sold. The consignment owner is not the owner of the gun at this point. In fact, if you were the owner that put the gun into the consignment system you would probably never know what happened with the gun.

Any time your a business your open to lawsuits. What would the owner of the consigned gun claim against the gun store be? The owner was paid the money, per the consignment contract, gun was put into consignment system. As far as I am aware of there is nothing in the section codes that say that consignment guns can't be pre-paid. All someone making an issue over this would do is cause people to have to wait on the guns to be sold in the future.

--

As to other comment - interpretation of the gun laws / rules are different based on areas in my experience.

Major things being:

01. Many gun shops believe that they only have to do 1 private party transfer of firearms per customer / per day. Very hard to find a shop in the bay area that will transfer 3-4 guns at once.

02. In the central valley area, most shops allow the safe affidavit to be used instead of purchasing gun locks. Even had Turners in Roseville, Ca allowed the affidavit. Just about every shop I have ever done business with in Southern California or the Bay Area have required me to purchase gun locks for each gun. They won't process transfer without gun locks.

03. Ran into this mostly in the bay area with shops charging more than $47.19 for private party transfers. Just last Saturday I was charged and on my receipt $40 ppt labor charge. I have run into this in Sacramento before also. It's been going on long enough that if DOJ cared they would be involved in it by now.

04. Had a gun shop in Southern California refuse to allow my concealed weapons permit issued by a police department to be used instead of the gun safety card.

05. Had a gun shop in Bay Area allow the concealed weapons permit as in place of my gun safety guard, but even though it had my address and everything still required me to use my vehicle registration for the secondary address.

06. I have had 3 shops till me a certain weapon is off roster, had 2 other shops say that they other shops didn't know what they were talking about and both allowed me to purchase and ship in certain weapon.

That's just to name the major ones I have ran into, there is nothing uniform across the board that is standard in every shop across California. Seems like different regions are more strict than others. Maybe because different regions have different doj / atf reps? The one thing I know when purchasing and traveling to different gun shops I know to always be ready for some new different run around.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by benjamin101677

Consignment situation is different, the gun put into consignment is put into a system just like a pawn shop situation where the description, serial number, etc. is submitted to the local law enforcement agency for that jurisdiction. That's why the gun sits for 30 days before the shop will allow transfer of gun to a new buyer. Once the gun is in consignment system even if the owner who put such weapon into consignment wants the gun back; the owner has to go through a 10 days waiting period again. Can't just simply walk in and take the possession back of the gun at that point. When you put a gun on consignment you are given a copy of the consignment form and will never get a sellers like copy in a private party situation.

If the new buyer flunked the background for purchase of the gun it would just go back into the consignment of the shop to be re-sold. The consignment owner is not the owner of the gun at this point. In fact, if you were the owner that put the gun into the consignment system you would probably never know what happened with the gun.

Any time your a business your open to lawsuits. What would the owner of the consigned gun claim against the gun store be? The owner was paid the money, per the consignment contract, gun was put into consignment system. As far as I am aware of there is nothing in the section codes that say that consignment guns can't be pre-paid. All someone making an issue over this would do is cause people to have to wait on the guns to be sold in the future.

--

As to other comment - interpretation of the gun laws / rules are different based on areas in my experience.

Major things being:

01. Many gun shops believe that they only have to do 1 private party transfer of firearms per customer / per day. Very hard to find a shop in the bay area that will transfer 3-4 guns at once.

02. In the central valley area, most shops allow the safe affidavit to be used instead of purchasing gun locks. Even had Turners in Roseville, Ca allowed the affidavit. Just about every shop I have ever done business with in Southern California or the Bay Area have required me to purchase gun locks for each gun. They won't process transfer without gun locks.

03. Ran into this mostly in the bay area with shops charging more than $47.19 for private party transfers. Just last Saturday I was charged and on my receipt $40 ppt labor charge. I have run into this in Sacramento before also. It's been going on long enough that if DOJ cared they would be involved in it by now.

04. Had a gun shop in Southern California refuse to allow my concealed weapons permit issued by a police department to be used instead of the gun safety card.

05. Had a gun shop in Bay Area allow the concealed weapons permit as in place of my gun safety guard, but even though it had my address and everything still required me to use my vehicle registration for the secondary address.

06. I have had 3 shops till me a certain weapon is off roster, had 2 other shops say that they other shops didn't know what they were talking about and both allowed me to purchase and ship in certain weapon.

That's just to name the major ones I have ran into, there is nothing uniform across the board that is standard in every shop across California. Seems like different regions are more strict than others. Maybe because different regions have different doj / atf reps? The one thing I know when purchasing and traveling to different gun shops I know to always be ready for some new different run around.

You experiences with FFL throughout the state are different than mine. I'm assuming that it ends up being an individual FFL thing.

Now to show you the actual LAW about immediately returning a firearm to a seller. Note, there is NO 10 day wait or requirement to reDROS in the LAW IF anyone tells you otherwise, they are just wrong. Here's the applicable law:

(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply with Section 27545.
(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm.
(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540.
(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of Section 27500, 27505, 27515, 27520, 27525, 27530, or 27535.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

You experiences with FFL throughout the state are different than mine. I'm assuming that it ends up being an individual FFL thing.

Now to show you the actual LAW about immediately returning a firearm to a seller. Note, there is NO 10 day wait or requirement to reDROS in the LAW IF anyone tells you otherwise, they are just wrong. Here's the applicable law:

FAILED PPT's going back to the oringinal owner requires a NICS number from DOJ and a 4473 but no DROS.

With consignments we are required to DROS it back to the consignor complete with 4473 and a 10 day wait. Its actually in the drop down in the DES

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by taperxz

FAILED PPT's going back to the oringinal owner requires a NICS number from DOJ and a 4473 but no DROS.

With consignments we are required to DROS it back to the consignor complete with 4473 and a 10 day wait. Its actually in the drop down in the DES

Thanks for the correction. Do you know of any LAW that requires such? Or, is it just moe underground regulations from DOJ?

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

Thanks for the correction. Do you know of any LAW that requires such? Or, is it just moe underground regulations from DOJ?

which part?

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by taperxz

which part?

The part that requires DROS for consignment PPTs which are returned to the transferor.

[ASD1]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

The part that requires DROS for consignment PPTs which are returned to the transferor.

it's in the dros drop down

"Pawn/Consignment Handgun Redemption"

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by ASD1

it's in the dros drop down

"Pawn/Consignment Handgun Redemption"

I understand that but, why is it there? Is it actual law or just underground regulations?

[benjamin101677]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

I understand that but, why is it there? Is it actual law or just underground regulations?

I am reading the form and the form for firearm is called:

"Bureau of Firearms Dealer Report of Firearm Acquisition"

Below that has a unique acquisition transaction number.

Where the person signs it is called seller / transaction signature with

"I certify under penalty of perjury that to my knowledge and belief the information above is true and complete and I am the owner, or have the authority of the owner, to sell or pledge the property."

So I am assuming this is a transfer release of the firearms into the custody and control of the second hand firearms shop. Which is why I am assuming that if the owner claims the firearm back they have to dros it to get a unique number again to put back into the consigners name.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

The part that requires DROS for consignment PPTs which are returned to the transferor.

The only exemption to deliver a gun back to a person from an FFL is through a background check. The FFL had to keep that gun in inventory for over 30 days at minimum.

It could be months before that gun leaves the store in some cases so in order to get it back the state mandates a full DROS and 10 wait. With a consignment contract, we take actual possession of the gun via contract. Basicallly, its the stores but not. Thats why we have to collect sales tax on the purchase of a consignment. I think the state just looks at the transfer and consigment contracts differently.

A regular PPT we don't really take a legal possession of it other than as a state agent.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by taperxz

I think the state just looks at the transfer and consigment contracts differently.

This is what I'm asking about. Does the state just decide to treat them differently or, is there actual law to support what the state is requiring for consignments?

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER

This is what I'm asking about. Does the state just decide to treat them differently or, is there actual law to support what the state is requiring for consignments?

Yes, the law that says any transfer between an FFL and a customer must have a background check performed. Nationally, its the same, a background check must be performed.