Questions about out of state parents gifting off roster handgun

[MarcusFenix]

Hello,

I have parents in another state. From what I understand they can gift me an off roster handgun. Would they be able to buy a handgun online new and have it shipped to a California FFL as a Christmas gift for me? Or do they need to take actual delivery first before they can gift it. I want to make sure everything is done properly and I can't seem to find good information on this online.

Thank you for any information. Private messages are welcome too, thanks.

[ASD1]

They need to own it. Not just pay for it.

[the_tunaman]

Sounds like a straw purchase?

[Milsurp1]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1179771

[MarcusFenix]

Originally Posted by ASD1

They need to own it. Not just pay for it.

Thank you. That's what I assumed but couldn't find anything definitively. I'll have them purchase it, take ownership and then they can gift it to me by shipping to my local FFL and transferring ownership. Silly process, just wanted to do it the most efficient (and legit) way possible.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by the_tunaman

Sounds like a straw purchase?

If the parents never fill out a 4473 it cannot be a straw purchase.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

If the parents never fill out a 4473 it cannot be a straw purchase.

If the parents DO fill out a 4473 and declare it's a bona fide gift, it's not a straw purchase either.

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are
the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from
pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the
actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift
for a third party.

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by MarcusFenix

Thank you. That's what I assumed but couldn't find anything definitively. I'll have them purchase it, take ownership and then they can gift it to me by shipping to my local FFL and transferring ownership. Silly process, just wanted to do it the most efficient (and legit) way possible.

Not all CA FFL dealers know about or are willing to conduct out-of-state intra-familial gift transfers of off-Roster handguns, so before your parent ships the off-Roster handgun to your local CA FFL dealer, you need to find out if your local FFL is willing to conduct this type of transfer.

Keep in mind that the CA FFL dealer can charge any amount of money to facilitate this type of transfer.

Your parent will need to include a copy of their valid State DL/ID and a gift letter with the firearm.

The firearm needs to be CA legal and cannot include any large capacity magazines.


Per SCOTUS ruling...
If you give your parents money to buy the firearm for you or payback the money they spent to acquire the firearm, then this is not a gift and would be considered an illegal straw purchase.
In order to be considered a gift, your parent needs to use their own money/funds to acquire the firearm and you cannot compensate them for it.

[edgerly779]

If you did not hide your location someone could refer local ffl that does interstate tntrafamilial transfers.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by MarcusFenix

Thank you. That's what I assumed but couldn't find anything definitively. I'll have them purchase it, take ownership and then they can gift it to me by shipping to my local FFL and transferring ownership. Silly process, just wanted to do it the most efficient (and legit) way possible.

Straw purchase from what you’re telling us. When you use the words, “ I’ll have them” I would not transfer this gun to you if I was your FFL.

A gift is generally something you don’t have a command in. This sounds very premeditated. Words have meaning in a court of law.

[MarcusFenix]

Thanks for all the helpful posts. It's a gift and no money is exchanged. There's nothing to debate on if this is truly a gift or not, just asking how to process it correctly. I appreciate everyone's input.

I didn't realize I didn't have a location displayed so I fixed that. Thanks and Merry Christmas.

[BAJ475]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Straw purchase from what you’re telling us. When you use the words, “ I’ll have them” I would not transfer this gun to you if I was your FFL.

A gift is generally something you don’t have a command in. This sounds very premeditated. Words have meaning in a court of law.

Did you never sit on Santa's lap and state what you would like for Christmas?

[hunterb]

I would double check whether the gun can be off-roster, that might have changed.

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Did you never sit on Santa's lap and state what you would like for Christmas?

Still waiting for that Uzi I asked Santa for in Christmas of ‘83….

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by BAJ475

Did you never sit on Santa's lap and state what you would like for Christmas?

No. Plus, is Santa going to follow the law?

[MarcusFenix]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Straw purchase from what you’re telling us. When you use the words, “ I’ll have them” I would not transfer this gun to you if I was your FFL.

A gift is generally something you don’t have a command in. This sounds very premeditated. Words have meaning in a court of law.

Perhaps in the world of firearms the definition of gift is looked at differently? With any other type of good I don't agree with this statement at all. It's not unusual for a parent or spouse to ask what you want as a gift. If I say a camera, they'll want to know what model, accessories. The fact I provide input in the process doesn't negate the fact it's still a gift from them to me.

Respectfully though, I'd like to avoid derailing this thread. It's a gift, I just was hoping they could ship it directly to my FFL without having to physically receive it first, and then transferring it out here. Extra paperwork, more delays, and costs, but if that's the only way, it's not a big deal. Figured there might be a more efficient way to avoid all that as the end result is the same.

Thanks again everyone.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by MarcusFenix

Perhaps in the world of firearms the definition of gift is looked at differently? With any other type of good I don't agree with this statement at all. It's not unusual for a parent or spouse to ask what you want as a gift. If I say a camera, they'll want to know what model, accessories. The fact I provide input in the process doesn't negate the fact it's still a gift from them to me.

Respectfully though, I'd like to avoid derailing this thread. It's a gift, I just was hoping they could ship it directly to my FFL without having to physically receive it first, and then transferring it out here. Extra paperwork, more delays, and costs, but if that's the only way, it's not a big deal. Figured there might be a more efficient way to avoid all that as the end result is the same.

Thanks again everyone.

Bringing it here from out of state and then you and parents go to a CA FFL is quite easy. They must own the firearm first before they can gift it to you.

[MarcusFenix]

Originally Posted by taperxz

Bringing it here from out of state and then you and parents go to a CA FFL is quite easy. They must own the firearm first before they can gift it to you.

Thanks a lot taperxz. It seems somewhat silly for them to have it shipped to their local FFL, only to then turn around and immediately ship it to my California FFL. I was hoping they could just order it online and have it shipped directly to my California FFL to cut out a step, even if they have to be listed as the owners prior to gifting it (with gift letter, drivers license or whatever else is required).

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by MarcusFenix

Thanks a lot taperxz. It seems somewhat silly for them to have it shipped to their local FFL, only to then turn around and immediately ship it to my California FFL. I was hoping they could just order it online and have it shipped directly to my California FFL to cut out a step, even if they have to be listed as the owners prior to gifting it (with gift letter, drivers license or whatever else is required).

Check with your FFL first as some may not know how to do this transaction. They will still need a letter stating its a gift from Mom/Dad in order to justify the off roster transfer. It will stay with all your paperwork in the event DOJ audits that FFL. You will also be subject to the FFL's transfer fee as this is not a CA PPT. You're just cutting out the shipping charges and dealing with an out of state FFL

[Quiet]

Originally Posted by MarcusFenix

I was hoping they could just order it online and have it shipped directly to my California FFL to cut out a step, even if they have to be listed as the owners prior to gifting it (with gift letter, drivers license or whatever else is required).

If it doesn't get flagged as a straw purchase, this can only be done with on-Roster handguns or CA legal exempt handguns (C&R, OTP, SAE, SSE2).

They must have the firearm transferred (4473/NICS) to them so they can legally own it, before they can legally gift it to you.

Them paying for the firearm and having it directly transferred to you does not qualify as an exempt out-of-state intra-familial gift transfer.
^In addition, this meets the indicators for a possible straw purchase.

[1911-CV]

What about the instructions on the back of the 4473 form?

"Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm."

It's his parents and worst case still seems to fit the definition on the form.

IANAL

[hermosabeach]

Talk to FFL ahead of time


CA DOJ issues a tracking # for guns shipped to the state from dealers.

Some FFL want the gun mailed - not a walk in for DROS

Some FFL want a letter notarized explaining the relationship - we are parents of our son type of letter
Notarized in their home state.

Remember FFL have audits.

Chat with FFL ahead and find out what they need.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by 1911-CV

What about the instructions on the back of the 4473 form?

"Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm."

It's his parents and worst case still seems to fit the definition on the form.

IANAL

But you need to fill out the 4473 in order for the parents to gift it first.

[Burbur]

I suspect part of the New 4473 further solidifies that ATF recognizes gift and resale as a permissible activity and not a Straw Purchase. Remember, a key component of a Straw Purchase is that the ultimate disposition is to a prohibited person. The new questions 21.b-c. ask ~'Are you going to transfer this to a prohibited person?'~ TWICE

b. Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s), or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to
any person described in questions 21(c)-(m), or to a person described in question 21.n.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?
c. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any
felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?

I've felt, for years, that bonafide gift guns is fully permissible. Begging your dad, son, or grandma to go buy you a laundry list of off-roster handguns is legitimate. Sending your grandma a blank check and a shopping list, might be conspiracy to circumvent CAPC 32000, so it's better if she pays for them and gives them to you as a bonafide GIFT.

[TKM]

If your name is Smith and you show up with an older Smith from out of state with an equally old Smith, how is parentage determined.

[taperxz]

Originally Posted by Burbur

I suspect part of the New 4473 further solidifies that ATF recognizes gift and resale as a permissible activity and not a Straw Purchase. Remember, a key component of a Straw Purchase is that the ultimate disposition is to a prohibited person. The new questions 21.b-c. ask ~'Are you going to transfer this to a prohibited person?'~ TWICE



I've felt, for years, that bonafide gift guns is fully permissible. Begging your dad, son, or grandma to go buy you a laundry list of off-roster handguns is legitimate. Sending your grandma a blank check and a shopping list, might be conspiracy to circumvent CAPC 32000, so it's better if she pays for them and gives them to you as a bonafide GIFT.

Abramski was a case heard by the SCOTUS. Abramski had nothing to do with a prohibited person. A straw purchase is illegal, period regardless of the status of the end user.

Remember, the rest of the country doesn’t have person to person background checks. 4473 asking about prohibited people means knowingly giving a gun to a prohibited person. What’s illegal, is for a prohibited person to possess a firearm or ammo.