UMC split

[Marauder2003]

https://share.newsbreak.com/zmql9lr3

[Garand Hunter]

Good to see part of them still stand for the faith once delivered to the saints ! Didn't St Paul set something forth about " abusers of themselves with other men " somewhere in the NT ? Romans maybe ?

Psalm 1

[Wordupmybrotha]

Couldn't read OP's article without downloading an app.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chr...bt-stance.html

[Wordupmybrotha]

The Left destroys whatever they touch. And they have infiltrated the church to destroy it from within. Seeing an example of that.

[RAMCLAP]

Excellent.

[RandyD]

The Bible is very clear that we are to part from those who actively sin.

[PogoJack]

ELCA
Presbyterian Church USA

Now this.

When you visit these churches, you can tell they are dead inside.

[Barang]

"The breakaway denomination, called the Global Methodist Church, will officially exist as of Sunday. Its leaders have been exasperated by liberal churches’ continued defiance of UMC bans on same-sex marriage and the ordination of openly gay clergy."

those are not Christians! they are like democrats who use God's name only when it's convenient to exploit a certain crisis.

do they even use Bible? obviously not but a satanic book!

[billvau]

The Bible knows nothing of "church splits" but rather deals with sin by church discipline. Sad to see them not openly confront the sin with discipline. Most Christian churches have membership clauses that say you can't resign your membership when in the Matthew 18 process. So, they leave (run away), but the church still continues and reminds everyone what sin is and how God deals with it.

[Garand Hunter]

Hi Bro Bill, may I make a point here ? Discipline only works with homosexuals in church organizations as far as the ones going another direction will accept it.
The group in this case is leaving the one going aside, not accepting not embracing what St Paul plainly rejected as SIN. So Called gay, liberal woke or whatever will not accept the truth. Leave them to their own devices, the LORD will deal with them. Just my sense of Paul's instruction in the New Testament. California has plenty of those desiring continual abuse of themselves with men with men and women with women. As well other states.

Psalm 1

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Hi Bro Bill, may I make a point here ? Discipline only works with homosexuals in church organizations as far as the ones going another direction will accept it.
The group in this case is leaving the one going aside, not accepting not embracing what St Paul plainly rejected as SIN. So Called gay, liberal woke or whatever will not accept the truth. Leave them to their own devices, the LORD will deal with them. Just my sense of Paul's instruction in the New Testament. California has plenty of those desiring continual abuse of themselves with men with men and women with women. As well other states.

Psalm 1

Hi GH - Discipline always works regardless of the disciplined members response. The church goes through the four steps with or without them. Yes, very often they leave, don't agree with the discipline, etc. But, it doesn't matter because Matthew 18:18 clearly states that heaven (i.e. God) has already made the decision to do the four steps of discipline before the church did! (same with repentance after).

In the NT, discipline was even done in Thessalonica on people refusing to work because of their Rapture issues! I've seen discipline done for many different sins. I've never seen it publicly abused, but have known pastors who "modify" it and do it quietly but running people out of the church with it (ignoring steps 3 and 4).

The bottom line is that if a church leader is supporting something clearly sinful, the other elders need to discipline him if he won't change his belief. The biggest problem here is that the NT does not know denominations with supposed authority over a local church. So, the denomination leadership means nothing to Jesus Christ. They have no biblical authority. Local churches are independent entities with elders. Most denominations are already outside of God's sovereign plan to His Church (1 Cor. 1:2). That's why you can expect to see all of their major problems! Either do it God's way or suffer the consequences as they are.

That's why I've never been in a denomination until the Baptist church I'm pastoring at now. BUT, they have nothing to do the denomination anymore. Just an independent church with Baptist in their name. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone their to help a pastor/friend I've known for 25+ years.

In fact, this is the first church in a denomination that I'd ever recommend. Most denominational local churches are usually filled with unsaved people. Sad to see.

Blessings,

[Garand Hunter]

Hi again Bill, a answer response just as I would expect from you. No issues with you and your response. When I and my family were dealing with church issues I just said Weidersehen and moved on. Auf Weidersehen is German for " Til we meet again " and I just say Weidersehen and drive away. Life is enuff of a mess or good things without church issues. Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition !

Psalm 1

[Dezrat]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1John 2:19

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Hi again Bill, a answer response just as I would expect from you. No issues with you and your response. When I and my family were dealing with church issues I just said Weidersehen and moved on. Auf Weidersehen is German for " Til we meet again " and I just say Weidersehen and drive away. Life is enuff of a mess or good things without church issues. Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition !

Psalm 1

Another answer you'd expect from me: The church is FAR more important than the individual. In fact, our corporate salvation is written about FAR more often than our individual salvation. What that means is the serving the local body of Christ is first and foremost. Attendance, membership, ministry, fellowship, working through issues, etc., FAR outweigh our personal preferences, comfort, pleasure, priorities, time commitments, etc. We're a body and if you read 1 Cor. 12, especially down around v.25-27, you'll see that when one member suffers we all suffer. That also means that when one member sins we all are hurt. There are reasons for leaving a local church, they really come down to the church not being a valid church from Christ's perspective. Even then we stay longer than we thing we should to try and build a Christ-honoring church.

It's not about me, it's about Jesus Christ, God the Father's church (1 Cor. 1:2) and the Church the Father created and put Christ head over (Eph. 1:19-23).

Blessings,

[Barang]

when a church losses it's authority, Biblical standard and truths, it becomes merely a building where demon spirits reside. like samson and saul, God's spirit departed from them when they rejected His Word.

[Fastattack]

It is interesting to see how the various players attempt to justify their actions in the face of what the Bible clearly teaches. They can't even agree amongst themselves how to twist the Bible's words in order to feel good about themselves.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Fastattack

It is interesting to see how the various players attempt to justify their actions in the face of what the Bible clearly teaches. They can't even agree amongst themselves how to twist the Bible's words in order to feel good about themselves.

honest question - what does the Bible clearly teach?

blessings,

[Dezrat]

Originally Posted by Fastattack

It is interesting to see how the various players attempt to justify their actions in the face of what the Bible clearly teaches. They can't even agree amongst themselves how to twist the Bible's words in order to feel good about themselves.

1Cor 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Dezrat

1Cor 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Wow. I don't know what translation you are using, but "heresies" is nowhere close to the Greek word here.

The New American Standard has it accurately:

1 Co11:19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.


The word is factions and the context ties back to 1 Cor. 1:10-17 (esp. 11-12) and 1 Cor. 3:1f...

1 Co1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

1 Co3:3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?

[Garand Hunter]

Its good to see you getting with the program again Bill.

Psalm 1

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Garand Hunter

Its good to see you getting with the program again Bill.

Psalm 1

Thanks. I wish had more time for this! I'll still be erratic, but hopefully, not as much as I've been in the past. Still don't have time for deep, long, debates!

Blessings!

[Dezrat]

Originally Posted by billvau

Wow. I don't know what translation you are using, but "heresies" is nowhere close to the Greek word here.

The New American Standard has it accurately:

1 Co11:19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.


The word is factions and the context ties back to 1 Cor. 1:10-17 (esp. 11-12) and 1 Cor. 3:1f...

1 Co1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

1 Co3:3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?

It's from an "obscure" version know as the King James Bible. I use an interlinear for study and teaching and am well aware of the Greek. A more applicable rendering considering the volume of factions based on heresies in these end times.
Maranatha.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Dezrat

It's from an "obscure" version know as the King James Bible. I use an interlinear for study and teaching and am well aware of the Greek. A more applicable rendering considering the volume of factions based on heresies in these end times.
Maranatha.

The KJV is definitely obscure and inaccurate for that verse. Certainly causes the reader to do a translation from archaic English. The KJV is also based lesser quality manuscripts than NASB and other literal, modern translations.

There is nothing in 1 Corinthians that says that the factions were based on "heresies in these end times." 1 Cor. 1-4 details the factions very clearly. In fact, they hadn't even formed into actual groups. If you looked across the body, you could see people "saying" (per 1:12) who they were supporting, and that lumped into several people.

Blessings,
Bill

[Dezrat]

Originally Posted by billvau

The KJV is definitely obscure and inaccurate for that verse. Certainly causes the reader to do a translation from archaic English. The KJV is also based lesser quality manuscripts than NASB and other literal, modern translations.

There is nothing in 1 Corinthians that says that the factions were based on "heresies in these end times." 1 Cor. 1-4 details the factions very clearly. In fact, they hadn't even formed into actual groups. If you looked across the body, you could see people "saying" (per 1:12) who they were supporting, and that lumped into several people.

Blessings,
Bill

Oh my...
First, I did not say that the rendering was applicable to the time of the Corinthians, I said it was applicable to our time.
Second, even a cursory study indicates that if looking to confine to a local context, ch1-4 most definitely do not define the factions of 11:19 at all. The opening verse of the passage is vs17, introducing a different subject altogether from ch 1-4, and directly defined in vs20-21. Pretty straightforward.
I did not use the passage(11:19) in its local context, nor did I misuse it in applying its truth to much of what calls itself the Church today and its factions and heresies.
I'm not going to get into one of your thread derailments that unfortunately stir up strife and seem designed lift yourself up more that edify the Body.
I regret responding to your original comment towards me, from observation and experience I know better. I will refrain from doing such.
The OP was not about any of this, I mistakenly perhaps thought it edifying and relevent to the OP to remember that this was all declared long ago in God's Word to be happening.

See you in heaven where there will be no debate. Hopefully we can begin celebrating it soon on the way up!


Pastor Brian

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Dezrat

Oh my...
First, I did not say that the rendering was applicable to the time of the Corinthians, I said it was applicable to our time.
Second, even a cursory study indicates that if looking to confine to a local context, ch1-4 most definitely do not define the factions of 11:19 at all. The opening verse of the passage is vs17, introducing a different subject altogether from ch 1-4, and directly defined in vs20-21. Pretty straightforward.
I did not use the passage(11:19) in its local context, nor did I misuse it in applying its truth to much of what calls itself the Church today and its factions and heresies.
I'm not going to get into one of your thread derailments that unfortunately stir up strife and seem designed lift yourself up more that edify the Body.
I regret responding to your original comment towards me, from observation and experience I know better. I will refrain from doing such.
The OP was not about any of this, I mistakenly perhaps thought it edifying and relevent to the OP to remember that this was all declared long ago in God's Word to be happening.

See you in heaven where there will be no debate. Hopefully we can begin celebrating it soon on the way up!


Pastor Brian

1. "Renderings" (I assume you mean "translation") are with respect to the Greek and the context to the book. In hermeneutics there is no such thing as a translation "applicable to our time." Application is applicable to our time, but they have to be of the in-context meaning of the text.

2. Yes, the factions of 1 Cor. 11 are related to Chapter 1. There are many facets to their social issues, and Paul's call that there "be no divisions among you," relates to every type of division in the letter. Yes, there is a specific issue there, but there were many facets to their division as individuals and as groups. See 1 Cor. 8, 10 for similar rich/poor division as in 1 Cor. 11. And, context of 1 Cor. 11 does not rule out that each individual possibly was choosing the house they went to based on the "I am of..." groupings of 1:12. The gatherings of 1 Cor 11 were not of the whole church in a single home.

3. 1 Cor 11:17f has a specific context - gathers of sub-groups of the church in the rich people's home for meals followed by the Lord's supper. "applying its truth to much of what calls itself the Church today and its factions and heresies" is too big a stretch for proper hermeneutics. And, there's nothing in 1 Cor. 11 about "heresies."

4."I'm not going to get into one of your thread derailments that unfortunately stir up strife and seem designed lift yourself up more that edify the Body. " Please repent of *trying* to read my heart. Nothing about my response had to do with lifting up myself more than edifying the body. Pastors are required to "accurately handle the word of truth" (2Tim 2:15) and that begins with an accurate translation of the truth. I simply pointed out the clear inaccuracy of the translation provided - and provided without explanation, thereby indicating to take the words as face value. So, honestly, posting that verse was where any possible derailment might begin.

5. "The OP was not about any of this, I mistakenly perhaps thought it edifying and relevent to the OP to remember that this was all declared long ago in God's Word to be happening." But you did none of that by using that incorrect translation of that verse, and a verse out-of-context.

6. I'll leave your personal attacks stand for others to see how you respond to someone just honestly correcting you.

Please respond to the arguments and not to your perception of the poster. You can't read hearts. And, please respond with a proper in-context, purely biblical answer. Then, its defensible.

Blessings,

[2761377]

^^^
don't need to read your heart to see the pride in your posts.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by 2761377

^^^
don't need to read your heart to see the pride in your posts.

Ouch. Another heart reader. Where, specifically, do you see "pride" in my post above?

[Wordupmybrotha]

I don't see pride in Bill's posts. I see someone defending their argument and I learn from these back and forths.

[Sailormilan2]

I have never been able to understand how someone can say that homosexuality is "acceptable", or "legal" when the Bible absolutely commands death to those who do it. I've heard people say that we must accept them, but that those who commit beastiality are wrong. Yet those two sins are in the same chapter in Leviticus and literally right next to each other, and both command the same punishment. Death. There is no exception.
Even some of Paul's statements seem to be specifically aimed at the LGBT community, and those get ignored, or twisted.

Please note. I am not saying anything about those with an "alternate" lifestyle, as it's been called. I don't want anyone saying I'm homophobic. I'm commenting on obvious, and possibly deliberate, misuse, or misinterpretation, of the Bible.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha

I don't see pride in Bill's posts. I see someone defending their argument and I learn from these back and forths.

Thanks.

Have a blessed day of worship!

[Barang]

to all pastors on calguns, here are some question:
1- i wonder how many here uses 10 commandments to identify sins?
2- how many here identify sins by name when preaching (i guess interchangeable/similar to question #1)?

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Barang

to all pastors on calguns, here are some question:
1- i wonder how many here uses 10 commandments to identify sins?
2- how many here identify sins by name when preaching (i guess interchangeable/similar to question #1)?

1. Read this carefully . I don't use the 10 commandments as the 10 commandments presented in Exodus 20. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and so we're no longer under them *as presented in Exodus 20.* Why is that important? Well.... half of them have the death penalty under the Mosaic Law!

But, with that said, nine are repeated in the New Testament but there is no longer a death penalty! The only one NOT in the NT is keeping the Sabbath. The Sabbath is Saturday (no, not redefined over to Sunday either). NT worship is "In spirit and in Truth" (John 4:24) - IOW internal worship, not outward observance of laws. We are free to worship all the time and the early church chose to begin Sunday worship coinciding with Christ's resurrection on a Sunday morning.

2. Yes, definitely. I'm always asking people what their top three sins are so that I can preach on them! Funny, no one wants to tell me. The ones that get some people to complain? Anxiety & Worry (Matt 6) (i.e "stress is a sin), fear of men (1 Peter 3:14), gluttony, extreme over-weight (lack of self-control), and worldliness (1 John 2:15-17).

Since a pastor is called to "preach the word" "in season and out", every sin the Bible is going to be called out by name sooner-or-later, especially when you preach book-by-book, verse-by-verse as I do!

Blessings,

[Garand Hunter]

Good reply Bill!

Psalm !

[Sailormilan2]

Good reply Bill. Let me refer to your last statement.

“Since a pastor is called to "preach the word" "in season and out", every sin the Bible is going to be called out by name sooner-or-later”.

My comment to that, and your statements just before it, is this. You are correct in that we are no longer under the Law, though the “10 Commandments” are technically the “covenant”, the Law defines what a sin is. Sin is a violation of the Law, and Paul says that without the Law there is no sin.
Without the Law as a standard to define what a sin is, there may be chaos. Everyone, or one particular person, giving their opinion as to what is a sin. I’ve come out of a group like that.
So, while I agree that we are no longer under the Law, the Law still serves a purpose to show if a particular thing is a sin.
As is said, All scripture is given for inspiration, reproof, doctrine……….

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

Good reply Bill. Let me refer to your last statement.

“Since a pastor is called to "preach the word" "in season and out", every sin the Bible is going to be called out by name sooner-or-later”.

My comment to that, and your statements just before it, is this. You are correct in that we are no longer under the Law, though the “10 Commandments” are technically the “covenant”, the Law defines what a sin is. Sin is a violation of the Law, and Paul says that with the Law there is no sin.
Without the Law as a standard to define what a sin is, there may be chaos. Everyone, or one particular person, giving their opinion as to what is a sin. I’ve come out of a group like that.
So, while I agree that we are no longer under the Law, the Law still serves a purpose to show if a particular thing is a sin.
As is said, All scripture is given for inspiration, reproof, doctrine……….

More later, but first, thanks for your thoughtful and correct response. BUT, "Law" in the NT has multiple meanings. Most people just think every reference to "Law" means the Mosaic Law, of which the 10 Commandments are a summary of.

But, (and this is where it may be a while before I get back in depth), some uses are God's moral law, which is above all specific "sets" of Law. Just think timeline for "specific sets" of laws. What was "law" before the Mosaic Law. Cain sinned against God with his offering. But there was no Mosaic Law yet. Read Romans 5:12-14 to get thoroughly confused. And, what is the "law" after Christ's resurrection? It's not the Mosaic law. We call it the "Law of Christ" (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2). Above all of those is God's moral law, i.e. what is right and wrong "at His level."

Gotta go. Great response. Thanks. Do a search on "law" in the NT and try to see, in context, what the Holy Spirit is revealing - what "law" is He talking about???

Blessings!

[Barang]

Originally Posted by billvau

1. Read this carefully

Since a pastor is called to "preach the word" "in season and out", every sin the Bible is going to be called out by name sooner-or-later, especially when you preach book-by-book, verse-by-verse as I do!

Blessings,

thank you bill. the reason i asked is because porn, abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, fornication, adultery and foul language are the norm and promoted by dems, hollywood, social media, woke corporate america and liberal entertainments (all forms). so i am curious how many pastors here confront these sins and condemn them at the pulpit. reminding congregants to stay away from them, that those will never be approved by God because He is holy, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

the 10 commandments are useful in identifying sins because they serve as a mirror that clearly identify sins. I still believe that we are under the Law but the penalty of instant death is already paid by Jesus. when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and He's is faithful to forgive (by His grace).

we don't keep the Law to be saved but we keep the Law because we love Him. We show our faith through good works (you shall know them by their fruits) because we now have a new personality (born again). it's good to keep the Law to remind us of the boundaries and keep us in line with God's word.

[spectralhunter]

Originally Posted by Barang

thank you bill. the reason i asked is because porn, abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, fornication, adultery and foul language are the norm and promoted by dems, hollywood, social media, woke corporate america and liberal entertainments (all forms). so i am curious how many pastors here confront these sins and condemn them at the pulpit. reminding congregants to stay away from them, that those will never be approved by God because He is holy, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

the 10 commandments are useful in identifying sins because they serve as a mirror that clearly identify sins. I still believe that we are under the Law but the penalty of instant death is already paid by Jesus. when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and He's is faithful to forgive (by His grace).

we don't keep the Law to be saved but we keep the Law because we love Him. We show our faith through good works (you shall know them by their fruits) because we now have a new personality (born again). it's good to keep the Law to remind us of the boundaries and keep us in line with God's word.

Unfortunately a lot of church pastors do not condemn sins today. Especially in many of the megachurches, they tow a line regarding sin because they do not want to offend anyone and lose members.

But doing so risks the lives of every church member, including the pastor. It's no longer repent, ask for forgiveness and God is faithful and will save you. It's becoming more like, Jesus loves you no matter what you do. The Gospel has been diluted into nothing sadly in many cases.

[Wordupmybrotha]

Originally Posted by Sailormilan2

Good reply Bill. Let me refer to your last statement.

“Since a pastor is called to "preach the word" "in season and out", every sin the Bible is going to be called out by name sooner-or-later”.

My comment to that, and your statements just before it, is this. You are correct in that we are no longer under the Law, though the “10 Commandments” are technically the “covenant”, the Law defines what a sin is. Sin is a violation of the Law, and Paul says that without the Law there is no sin.
Without the Law as a standard to define what a sin is, there may be chaos. Everyone, or one particular person, giving their opinion as to what is a sin. I’ve come out of a group like that.
So, while I agree that we are no longer under the Law, the Law still serves a purpose to show if a particular thing is a sin.
As is said, All scripture is given for inspiration, reproof, doctrine……….

Originally Posted by Barang

thank you bill. the reason i asked is because porn, abortion, gay marriage, transgenderism, fornication, adultery and foul language are the norm and promoted by dems, hollywood, social media, woke corporate america and liberal entertainments (all forms). so i am curious how many pastors here confront these sins and condemn them at the pulpit. reminding congregants to stay away from them, that those will never be approved by God because He is holy, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

the 10 commandments are useful in identifying sins because they serve as a mirror that clearly identify sins. I still believe that we are under the Law but the penalty of instant death is already paid by Jesus. when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and He's is faithful to forgive (by His grace).

we don't keep the Law to be saved but we keep the Law because we love Him. We show our faith through good works (you shall know them by their fruits) because we now have a new personality (born again). it's good to keep the Law to remind us of the boundaries and keep us in line with God's word.

I agree with the posts above. That's my understanding also.

Bill might be talking about how using the term "laws" get murky, because there are so many kinds, including dietary laws and other restrictions used to set apart Jewish people, but to me, the 10 commandments summarizes the perpetual moral obligations between man and God (1-4) and between man and man (5-10) that still define sin. God is still holy and what he deemed unholy before Christ's death is still considered unholy now and tomorrow.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha

I agree with the posts above. That's my understanding also.

Bill might be talking about how using the term "laws" get murky, because there are so many kinds, including dietary laws and other restrictions used to set apart Jewish people, but to me, the 10 commandments summarizes the perpetual moral obligations between man and God (1-4) and between man and man (5-10) that still define sin. God is still holy and what he deemed unholy before Christ's death is still considered unholy now and tomorrow.

Go a level higher as I explained. It's not "types" of laws but rather laws handed down by God for times before, during, and after the Mosaic Law. ABOVE all of those is God's moral standard (the highest level "law").

Blessings!

[Handshaker]

When the scriptures say we are not under the law doesn't mean we have a pass to commit any of those commandments whenever we want. What is does mean is we are not under the penalty of death, spiritual and physical for breaking them. If we have broken one of the commandments, we have broken them all. That obedience doesn't save you, Its Christ death on the cross that paid the penalty for breaking them. Which every one of us does daily.