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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#1
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There are TWO sets of laws to satisfy, California and Federal.
For long guns, either a gun safe (as attested to by the Gun Safe or Lock Box Ownership Affidavit) or a gun lock will suffice - see DOJ's page Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale. As things stand in September, 2008, the gun safe/Affidavit doesn't work (comfortably, for the FFL) for hand gun purchases, because for hand guns, the Feds complicated things with the "CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005", now 18 USC 922(z) Quote:
However, recent info from the 2008 Shotshow is posted in a BATFE FAQ. Quote:
So, until BATFE gets its act together, FFLs have no BATFE "blessed" way to document that a currently-owned gun safe fulfills the requirement for "a secure gun storage or safety device". While that continues, it seems prudent that the dealer would require a gun lock, following California rules on kind and recent purchase. ETA: Some of the Better Retailers are accepting the safe affidavit before BATFE issues regs to accept safes, since the actual law accepts them. California law California law requires dealers to deliver guns only if the gun is accompanied by an approved safety device - PC 12087 and following (Created by 1999's AB 106 - Scott) Quote:
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() Last edited by Librarian; 03-01-2009 at 10:34 AM.. Reason: Add CA law. Edit for length. |
#2
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With the addition of a safe to list list of acceptable locking devices, I'd accept the CA Safe Affidavit as proof. If the ATF is going to come after my license for that, I'm probably in bigger trouble anyway.
![]() EDIT: ATF has informed me that the CA Safe Affidavit is NOT acceptable for the Federal requirement.
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Jim ![]() Last edited by halifax; 12-27-2008 at 7:06 AM.. Reason: updated |
#3
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another sticky masterpiece!!!!!!!!!!!
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False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria http://www.a-human-right.com/ |
#4
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Freedom does not die alone -- Camus, Homage to an Exile People generally quarrel because they cannot argue -- G.K. Chesterton It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties -- James Madison |
#5
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Lots of info, yet unfortunately I think it still draws the same improper conclusions that a lock must be sold, even if only to make the FFL feel more comfortable. As an example, in that BATFE open letter, nowhere does it mention sales of locks. Why keep propogating the notion that 'provides' equates to 'sells' ?
Until forced to act through some legally binding way to document the issue on the Federal level, then accepting the safe affadavit to comply with CA law, while ensuring that a gun safe, gun case, lock box, etc. is present and 'provided' in order to comply with the Feds should be sufficient. We shouldn't give any ground on this issue, since far too many FFLs are forcing sales of $4 locks at $8-20 a pop just so that they can feel 'comfortable'. |
#6
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It's the BATFE. If there is an improper conclusion, it's in DC, not in this post. I agree with you - the safe is in the law, it should be accepted. And I've said several times in this forum that "provided with" can also mean "has"; it is not the case that the only meaning is "seller provides". But it is not my business at risk if the BATFE come in to audit. Which seems better to you:
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() Last edited by Librarian; 09-05-2008 at 1:39 PM.. |
#7
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Usually I see FFLs list the lock or safe affadavit info in the comment section of the electronic DROS, however this is a CA specific document, and if BATFE is auditing nationwide on this issue, then there better be someplace else where this is Federally documented if they are to have any say when it comes to auditing. |
#8
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I don't force a customer to buy a lock when they purchase a handgun from me. I provide them one free of charge. I still have a good supply of Project Childsafe gunlocks that I give out at every opportunity. Once those finally run out, I can buy Master #107 gunlocks from my supplier at about $4 per. I'm still going to GIVE them away. If I have to worry about cutting my profit margin by $4 a gun to survive, I've got bigger issues than a stupid gunlock.
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![]() Tim & the gang Fort Courage Armory 1518-B Los Angeles Avenue Simi Valley, CA 93065 (805) 526-6563 www.fortcouragearmory.com |
#9
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You are a class act, sir. ![]()
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#10
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Jim ![]() |
#11
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A lot of others, however, may remember Red's Trading Post, and how one of our favorite government agencies can be inconsistent, petty, and vindictive. Writing and asking for clarification is almost certainly the right action. Since I don't have an FFL, I decided I didn't have enough 'standing' that they'd bother with me. I know they've been ignoring my email for more than a year. The point of the thread was to inform Calgunners that the safe/lock thing is not something made up to inconvenience or bleed customers and to give the specifics. It's an FAQ. How any individual FFL chooses to do business - how much risk s/he wishes to accept, how to explain the problem to customers, how to train staff other than the FFL-holder, how that business will implement following unclear directions - is a decision s/he is, and must be, free to make for himself.
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When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() |
#12
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Apparently many "inexpensive" gun safes, for example 250lb Sentry G-4311, are classified by CA DOJ as "lockboxes". And certified lockboxes require a receipt for affidavit to be accepted.
# Is presentation of a receipt always required when a person signs the affidavit stating ownership of a DOJ-approved lock box? Yes. If the firearm recipient claims an exception to the FSD requirement due to ownership of a DOJ-approved lock box, a receipt for the DOJ-approved lock box will be required in all circumstances. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ab106faqs.php#4 Now I'm wondering what would a person buying a used such lockbox provide as the receipt ![]() P.S. I've stepped into this trap just last Sunday at Martin Retting in Culver City. |
#13
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I spoke with BATFE by phone about this last year. I asked how they enforce the lock requirement when there is no documentation required. I was told that the only way they can enforce it is if they visually see a handgun leave an FFL premesis without a lock. Also, according to this conversation BATFE does not care who "provides" the lock to the transferee, only that I have them available for customers who need them. I have my customers bring a lock from home if they have one. Any lock that fits the gun will do. If they don't have one, I sell them a used one for $1.
Used locks work for Cal BOF as well. They have to Cal approved, but nothing in the law says they have to be new. |
#14
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![]() Quote:
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Bill and Joe can make a deal to sell each other the same lock, 30 days or fewer before the other buys a new handgun, and providing a nice, printed receipt with the new date to show the FFL. That fits the requirement of the law.
__________________
When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() |
#15
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To add to the C&R handgun exemption, it appears that C&R licensees are exempt from the entire federal Child Safety Lock Act and would only need to comply with the CA safey device law, which can be covered with the Safe Affidavit.
Quote:
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#17
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I kow a shop that has sold the same lock at least 15 times, as long as you do not open the package you can return it the next day. and it is 3.95+tax
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![]() Thieves are the lowest form of life out there, except for liberal politicians, of course, but that's redundant. |
#18
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ok, so a little help here. if i bring this:
![]() http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemD...aspx?sku=60573 |
#19
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If it's on DOJ approved lockbox list, then yes (must show receipt like I stated above), but otherwise no.
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#20
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So, why not simply sell the purchaser a lock and then let them return it to you for credit or refund later. You could have a bin of locks that have been sold and returned many times? I know its a hassle but it beats messing with the ATF. I honestly thought the Cal Safe affidavit was sufficient. So basically not only did I spend a huge sum for a safe, but I still need to buy a friggin' lock every time I purchase a firearm--a lock I'll never use because I have a safe and locks for my transport containers. I envision a land fill full of unneeded cable locks. How ecologically correct.
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Benefactor Life Member NRA, Life Member CRPA, CGN Contributor, US Army Veteran, Black Ribbon in Memoriam for the deceased 2nd Amendment ![]() — Buy on Amazon? Use smile.amazon.com to contribute to the NRA. The NRA Foundation has received $206,274.19 as of August 2020 from Amazon. |
#21
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![]() Quote:
Safe's are fine for anything not a handgun. Rifles, shotguns, receivers, etc.
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Please read the Calguns Wiki Quote:
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#23
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One of my first customers gave me a huge box of CA approved gun locks. Until they run out, they are free with every purchase. ![]()
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![]() NRA Benefactor Life Member 01 Dealer Redding, CA US Army MP Corps Veteran Former NRA Pistol Coach Level 3 I am always looking for Beretta D models in 9mm or a Compact Type M. |
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