The case for the less expensive 1911 pistols

[SG29736]

Originally Posted by hambam105

True for average or low skilled pistol shooter.

Not true for competent 1911 shooter. Example:

Attend a PPC or Bianchi Cup style practice session or match. 25% of the participants there will
have more pistol accuracy skills than these 2nd and 3rd drawer 1911 clones can deliver. It is
a matter of range experience rather than speculation.

That's true. But that is a tiny subset of shooters. There are hundreds, maybe over a thousand USPSA and IDPA matches held every month, year after year, and that's still a very small percentage of shooters who participate. How many PPC and BIANCHI cup type matches are held in a month or years time?

[hambam105]

SG29736

The answer to your question is I don't know.

As to the tiny subset group of shooters...I'd rather be in a tiny subset of shooters who
shoot well instead of being in a larger group of shooters who can't hit sheet.

Unless you're physically or financially impaired, sub-standard pistol handling skills is a choice.

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

Stormvet, I always thought of the LDA as "the 1911 that Glock should have built". It's a 1911 with a smooth, very light revolver trigger. Like a double action revolver, there's no shooting to reset; you have to let the trigger all the way out. It does take a little getting used to.

[naz]

Originally Posted by Cowboy T

. Unfortunately, I've met some people who think that only that bracket is "good enough" for anyone to own, or at a minimum, a $1400 Kimber pistol. I disagree with this notion.

I think context matters a lot for that kind of advice.

If it’s someone with a huge selection of guns in their safe looking for another toy, I would wholeheartedly agree with “buy whatever” and an inexpensive 1911 is a fun way to practice tinkering or trying a new brand.

But if it’s a newer shooter or someone with limited funds who absolutely wanted to shoot 45acp, I would tell them to get Glock 21 over a cheap 1911

[stormvet]

Originally Posted by Grumpyoldretiredcop

Stormvet, I always thought of the LDA as "the 1911 that Glock should have built". It's a 1911 with a smooth, very light revolver trigger. Like a double action revolver, there's no shooting to reset; you have to let the trigger all the way out. It does take a little getting used to.

Ok kinda like a Kahr trigger, smooth long light pull with a long reset.

I can see that taking some time to get use to, we are so use to the short crisp press and reset of a single action 1911.

[SG29736]

Originally Posted by hambam105

SG29736

The answer to your question is I don't know.

As to the tiny subset group of shooters...I'd rather be in a tiny subset of shooters who
shoot well instead of being in a larger group of shooters who can't hit sheet.

Unless you're physically or financially impaired, sub-standard pistol handling skills is a choice.

So you shoot Bianchi Cup and/or PCC matches?. Or do you compete at all? I never see them in my area. I shoot 2 or 3 USPSA matches a month plus multiple bigger matches per year. I'm in that also tiny subset of shooters. It's not bullseye though. Also I don't shoot the cheap pistols myself. I compete with a Wilson Combat 1911 and CZs with high level parts and smithing performed on them.

[TomReloaded]

I don't think a $1500 1911 is going to help you any in action shooting either though. Pretty big handicap really.

[SG29736]

Originally Posted by TomReloaded

I don't think a $1500 1911 is going to help you any in action shooting either though. Pretty big handicap really.

In what way a handicap? I've shot the Western States Singles Stack match several times with over 200 shooters using all shooting 1911s. Many makes and models. The absolute number one thing is for the gun to be reliable. The more accurate the better but if it's not reliable it doesn't matter. They have a stage there that starts with a 50 yard string of 6 shots in 5.7 seconds including the draw. Shots fired over 6.0 seconds earn a penalty.

[Sir Toast]

Originally Posted by MEGSDAD

RIA does.

I picked up an RIA 1911 about 6 months ago for $379 from Sportsman's Warehouse. Still unfired. In about 18 months, I'll sell it for $5,000 when Potato Joe bans semi autos.

[hambam105]

SG29

Good for you. Competition shooting is great fun & entertaining for me.

But I don't shoot PCC either. I shoot PPC. Google NRA Action Pistol. You should see it there. Bianchi Cup,
Hallsville, Missouri, check for times and directions to the range.

The pistol action shooting, or what I refer to as gallery shooting, crowd in Sacramento has a real good group of
competitors, with a few persons taking themselves too seriously.

[MEGSDAD]

Originally Posted by Sir Toast

I picked up an RIA 1911 about 6 months ago for $379 from Sportsman's Warehouse. Still unfired. In about 18 months, I'll sell it for $5,000 when Potato Joe bans semi autos.

Sadly I'd bet they will also ban TRANSFER of all semi-autos.

[SG29736]

Originally Posted by hambam105

SG29

Good for you. Competition shooting is great fun & entertaining for me.

But I don't shoot PCC either. I shoot PPC. Google NRA Action Pistol. You should see it there. Bianchi Cup,
Hallsville, Missouri, check for times and directions to the range.

The pistol action shooting, or what I refer to as gallery shooting, crowd in Sacramento has a real good group of
competitors, with a few persons taking themselves too seriously.

I did mean PPC. I am aware of Bianchi Cup and the different stages. Other then the actual Bianchi Cup championship match how many of those type of matches do they hold? I just don't see them offered. Gallery shooting? You're funny. Other people are taking themselves too seriously?

[hambam105]

Funny? Me? Oh yeah! I'm just a blast, especially at parties of all kinds.

I don't live in Missouri anymore. So I'm not sure who ''they'' are.

As to my use of the word, Gallery: How many more swinging targets, falling targets, partial targets, rotating,
disappearing, knock-down, oddly shaped and multicolored targets do you need before the sport is considered
gallery shooting? It's fun as heck isn't it?

I am not the person writing, or arguing about, or enforcing, or encouraging writing supplemental digital backup
material for a 121 page USPSA Rule Book. So whom is taking who too seriously?

[SG29736]

Well if by referring to USPSA as gallery shooting it was intended as a positive, that's different. I took it as a putdown. I searched for NRA action pistol and Bianchi cup matches. I did find one other match, the Crawdad Cup, or something like that in Louisiana that was advertised as a match to shoot about a month before the actual Bianchi Cup. I can't find monthly matches shooting those stages or that type of match. But I can easily find hundreds of USPSA matches every month across the U.S.

[Angrysnarf]

The best gun is what you can afford do not let anyone tell you differently

[noseyparker2u]

I had to buy one of these, too good to pass up.
$319.99 w/free shipping and no tax.
$30.00 FFL to receive. $350.00 OTD.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by TomReloaded

I don't think a $1500 1911 is going to help you any in action shooting either though. Pretty big handicap really.

It would be if you shot it in Limited or Open, but USPSA has a division dedicated to 1911 called Single Stack.

Heavy(ish) trigger and poor(ish)ly fitted barrel won't affect the scores of upper level competitors within the division because action shooting such as USPSA requires refined use of the support hand during hard trigger pulls - accuracy is more than adequate and trigger weight is irrelevant (up to a point) if support hand is doing its job correctly. For others, there is much lower hanging fruit than trigger weight to improve the scores both in stages and on classifiers.

But in the context of this thread your sentiment is correct - a traditional 1911's largest handicap is the lack of capacity, followed by the lack of magwells on traditional models, which combined with narrow magazines slows down the reloads. In fact, most of the "45 vs. 9" debate boils down to capacity and ammo weight.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by noseyparker2u

I had to buy one of these, too good to pass up.
$319.99 w/free shipping and no tax.
$30.00 FFL to receive. $350.00 OTD.

At that price point, it's a better deal than the usual plastic-fantastics. Almost certainly the best option sub-400.

The problem is when the entry level 1911 goes for around 800-900, which is quite a bit above the competing designs.

[IVC]

Originally Posted by Angrysnarf

The best gun is what you can afford do not let anyone tell you differently

That's true, but if you can afford several guns at similar prices you can evaluate which one of them is the best value or which one serves your purpose the best.

[johncage]

i've handled and shot 1911s, they're overrated. just get an m&p2.0 or shield

[harbormaster]

$2500 pistols are fine for those who can and have the money to spend. I have nothing in that category and have wanted one but am not willing to part with my limited resources for it. I shoot a Kimber made in the 90s, a Springfield 9mm, an RIA 9mm, and a Colt XSE. The most I paid was for the Kimber. These four are great and reliable as can be. I am glad I spent a lot on 45 ammo before it got ugly or I’d have to shoot much less.

[Cowboy T]

Originally Posted by naz

I think context matters a lot for that kind of advice.

If it’s someone with a huge selection of guns in their safe looking for another toy, I would wholeheartedly agree with “buy whatever” and an inexpensive 1911 is a fun way to practice tinkering or trying a new brand.

But if it’s a newer shooter or someone with limited funds who absolutely wanted to shoot 45acp, I would tell them to get Glock 21 over a cheap 1911

Well, a Glock 21 is a fine choice, no doubt. That particular model is actually my favorite semi-auto pistol due to its ergonomics; it happens to be a very good fit for my hands, especially under recoil.

But that's not true for everyone. For some people, the 1911 platform really is the best fit for them, including under recoil. For those people, an inexpensive 1911 is the right choice. That was true for the customer I mentioned in my original post in this thread. It just fits him really well, and that's gotta be a big contributor to why he comes to the range and shoots it regularly.

[XL650]

If you can afford an expensive gun of any kind buy it. If not, that’s ok too. If it shoots good and feels comfortable. That’s all that matters.

[stilly]

Originally Posted by Oneaudiopro

I’ve got a Norinco 1911 and it’s one of my favorite shooters.

HEY! I got mine for $279 and it was my first 1911 I ever got when I was a youngin...

Later I let some guy durakote the slide to be OD Green and that was when I learned there was a thing call an Operator. I also picked up an RIA 1911 Tactical that was all black with adjustable sights.

In doing research I found there was an Operator and a TRP Operator. I purchased a Loaded MC Operator (green slide with black frame) and it shot very well, but then I saw a Taurus PT-1911 ALR and I HAD to get it, so I learned how to do SSE and I brought one into Commiefornia. Then later on, after shooting it (it is the ONLY 1911 that has never jammed on me so far) I found a TRP Operator and sold my Loaded MC and got the TRP.

I am not a 1911 guy. I am also not a Glock guy, but I like unique things and things that feel good or shoot well.

I found that 99.9% of malfunctions in 1911s can be fixed by feeding the gun the ammo through a Wilson 47D magazine. Matter of fact, I have yet to be proven wrong, but the more you spend on a 1911, the cheaper the mags you can run. Likewise, the less you spend on a 1911, the more expensive the mags you will need in order to get it to shoot without jamming.

Also, Even though Wilson ETM mags are supposed to be the 47D evolved to be better, they will NOT feed hollowpoints reliably. My 47D mags will feed hollowpoints all day long and enjoy them, but the ETM have a groove pushed in at the top front right side and causes too much friction when feeding HP ammos...

I got my TRP back from Nighthawk Custom recently and now after 8 months in their possession, it does not even use magazines. I just put the rounds in my pocket and the gun feeds itself...

[Cowboy T]

Originally Posted by hambam105

True for average or low skilled pistol shooter.

Not true for competent 1911 shooter. Example:

Attend a PPC or Bianchi Cup style practice session or match. 25% of the participants there will
have more pistol accuracy skills than these 2nd and 3rd drawer 1911 clones can deliver. It is
a matter of range experience rather than speculation.

For competitors, I would agree. I'm not talking about competitive shooters here.

Originally Posted by SG29736

That's true. But that is a tiny subset of shooters. There are hundreds, maybe over a thousand USPSA and IDPA matches held every month, year after year, and that's still a very small percentage of shooters who participate. How many PPC and BIANCHI cup type matches are held in a month or years time?

Well answered, and I agree, but even this kind of misses the point. The vast majority of people who buy a handgun are not competitive shooters at all. They go to the range, they practice, they head home, kind of like I do. Now, I do practice about 2-3 times a week to keep my marksmanship up, but there's no way I'd ever win a USPSA or IDPA match, and I'm not trying to. I'm just simply enjoying shooting. So, I'm thinking that hambam's focus on the competitive shooter here perhaps isn't pertinent. Competitive shooters of course will spend the money to win matches. Unless that's happening, there's no need.

[hambam105]

Originally Posted by static2126

Yup the gun is never the limiter ep slow fire at a range

If an individual pistol shooters feels confrontable self-classifying himself or his equipment as 'average', so be it.

But there are a few pistol shooters out there who don't consider their pistol shooting skill level as average.

Average is easy. Average is safe. Most people are contentment with safe and easy.

[Imageview]

Most people are by definition average. Hell, I’m probably sub average in my pistol shooting abilities, just because it’s not as important to me as other aspects of shooting (I’d rather be shooting shotguns or rifles, and do both 10x as much as pistols). Can I shoot a $2000 1911 better than the mediocre ria I own? Yes. Better sights, better trigger, better tolerances all add up. Is it worth it to me to invest that money in a 1911? Not right now. Am I better off with a mediocre 1911 than a pointy stick? Yes. Do I enjoy a mediocre 1911 more than a Glock 19? Also yes, although I could probably shoot the Glock at least as well (those ria sights aren’t wonderful). Am I ever going to shoot any sort of competition? No. So the mediocre 1911 has a place in my safe.