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  #1  
Old 06-21-2022, 12:55 PM
tap4154 tap4154 is offline
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Default Interfamilial transfer from trust?

I have several pistols that were my dad's. He passed back in 2008, then my mom passed in 2017, and the house and contents went to me via a revocable trust. I want to sell some of the pistols, but understand they have to be in my name first. I've read some of the previous threads on interfamilial transfers, but am still confused.

Can anyone guide me to the correct form? Also, one of the pistols is a H&K P7 M13, and I'm not sure of the status of it legally in CA. I do not have the magazine, just the pistol and everything else that came with it originally.

Thanks for any assistance.
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Old 06-21-2022, 1:59 PM
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The administrator or trustee of the trust can legally transfer the firearms listed on the trust.


The H&K P-7M13 is a CA legal off-Roster handgun.
The P7M13 magazines are considered large capacity magazines and can not be legally transferred in CA, unless they are permanently altered into 10 round magazines.
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Last edited by Quiet; 06-21-2022 at 2:02 PM..
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Old 06-21-2022, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The administrator or trustee of the trust can legally transfer the firearms listed on the trust.


The H&K P-7M13 is a CA legal off-Roster handgun.
The P7M13 magazines are considered large capacity magazines and can not be legally transferred in CA, unless they are permanently altered into 10 round magazines.

Thank you for the reply. The guns are not specially listed in the trust, just words to the effect of the house, property and contents. When my Dad passed nothing was done in regards to transferring them to my Mom, but she created the trust, and I am the trustee. I'd like to put a few of them up on Gun Broker, so want to have my ducks in a row first. So if I can transfer them to a buyer as the trustee, so I need to do anything first? A gun shop I called today was who said I need to do the interfamilial transfer first, but it's from a trust.
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Old 06-21-2022, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tap4154 View Post
I have several pistols that were my dad's. He passed back in 2008, then my mom passed in 2017, and the house and contents went to me via a revocable trust. I want to sell some of the pistols, but understand they have to be in my name first. I've read some of the previous threads on interfamilial transfers, but am still confused.

Can anyone guide me to the correct form? Also, one of the pistols is a H&K P7 M13, and I'm not sure of the status of it legally in CA. I do not have the magazine, just the pistol and everything else that came with it originally.

Thanks for any assistance.
So, since it appears you became the successor trustee in 2017, you own them. I don't recall any specific paperwork that mentions transfer through a trust, but I suspect the OPLAW or Operation of Law form would have been appropriate at that time. This one: https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...rms/oplaw.pdf?

No penalty for not doing that, if DOJ finds out only from filing the form late, so it hurts nothing if you care to do that - $19 for all the guns listed at one submission.

But, you're operating on a false premise: "they have to be in my name first". That is not checked, because it is not the law that guns must be 'registered', in general (there are special cases). You can go ahead and sell any of the guns you own, through a CA FFL or through an out of state FFL, without bothering about the OPLAW.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2022, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tap4154 View Post
Thank you for the reply. The guns are not specially listed in the trust, just words to the effect of the house, property and contents. When my Dad passed nothing was done in regards to transferring them to my Mom, but she created the trust, and I am the trustee. I'd like to put a few of them up on Gun Broker, so want to have my ducks in a row first. So if I can transfer them to a buyer as the trustee, so I need to do anything first? A gun shop I called today was who said I need to do the interfamilial transfer first, but it's from a trust.
AFAIK, if the firearms are not specifically listed on the trust, then they are not legally a part of the trust. [PC 16960]

All of the firearms from your parents would need to be transferred to you via intra-familial transfer. [PC 27875(a)]

You will need to submit a completed Report of Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction to CA DOJ BOF. [PC 27875(a)(3)]
This can be done online via CFARS -> CRIS -> Report of Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction or by downloading a Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction (BOF 4544A), completing it and mailing it to CA DOJ BOF.



Penal Code 27875
(a) Section 27545 does not apply to the transfer of a firearm by gift, bequest, intestate succession, or other means from one individual to another, if all of the following requirements are met:
(1) The transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(2) The transfer is between members of the same immediate family.
(3) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall submit a report to the Department of Justice, in a manner prescribed by the department, that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The reports that individuals complete pursuant to this subdivision shall be made available to them in a format prescribed by the department.
(4) Until January 1, 2015, the person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a valid handgun safety certificate if the firearm is a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2015, a valid firearm safety certificate for any firearm, except that in the case of a handgun, a valid unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.
(5) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

Penal Code 16960
As used in Article 1 (commencing with Section 26500) of Chapter 1 of Division 6 of Title 4, “operation of law” includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:
(a) The executor, personal representative, or administrator of an estate, if the estate includes a firearm.
(b) A secured creditor or an agent or employee of a secured creditor when a firearm is possessed as collateral for, or as a result of, a default under a security agreement under the Commercial Code.
(c) A levying officer, as defined in Section 481.140, 511.060, or 680.260 of the Code of Civil Procedure.
(d) A receiver performing the functions of a receiver, if the receivership estate includes a firearm.
(e) A trustee in bankruptcy performing the duties of a trustee, if the bankruptcy estate includes a firearm.
(f) An assignee for the benefit of creditors performing the functions of an assignee, if the assignment includes a firearm.
(g) A transmutation of property between spouses pursuant to Section 850 of the Family Code.
(h) A firearm received by the family of a police officer or deputy sheriff from a local agency pursuant to Section 50081 of the Government Code.
(i) The transfer of a firearm by a law enforcement agency to the person who found the firearm where the delivery is to the person as the finder of the firearm pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 2080) of Chapter 4 of Title 6 of Part 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code.
(j) The trustee of a trust that includes a firearm and that was part of a will that created the trust.
(k) A person acting pursuant to the person’s power of attorney in accordance with Division 4.5 (commencing with Section 4000) of the Probate Code.
(l) A limited or general conservator appointed by a court pursuant to the Probate Code or Welfare and Institutions Code.
(m) A guardian ad litem appointed by a court pursuant to Section 372 of the Code of Civil Procedure.
(n) The trustee of a trust that includes a firearm that is under court supervision.
(o) A special administrator appointed by a court pursuant to Section 8540 of the Probate Code.
(p) A guardian appointed by a court pursuant to Section 1500 of the Probate Code.
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Last edited by Quiet; 06-21-2022 at 2:35 PM..
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Old 06-21-2022, 2:55 PM
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Wow, still confusing. I may own them, or I may not if they weren't specifically listed in the trust. They were all registered BTW, so are still in my dad's name.

This is why I've never tried to sell them. I appreciate the replies, and have seen that form. Wasn't sure if I should check by operation of law, or from family member.
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Old 06-22-2022, 6:34 AM
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Hopefully just to clarify this, is the consensus that I could put the pistols up on GunBroker and just sell them without filing the Operation of law form, as long as I go through an FFL?

I've shot since I was a child, but not the past decade or so, so I haven't been keeping up with the laws. I see now that there's a safety certificate that you need to pass a simple test to get. Do I need to get that certificate before I sell these? I've taken some sample tests online and it's pretty basic stuff.
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Old 06-22-2022, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tap4154 View Post
Hopefully just to clarify this, is the consensus that I could put the pistols up on GunBroker and just sell them without filing the Operation of law form, as long as I go through an FFL?
Yes.
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Old 06-22-2022, 3:12 PM
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Tagged.
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Old 06-22-2022, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tap4154 View Post
Hopefully just to clarify this, is the consensus that I could put the pistols up on GunBroker and just sell them without filing the Operation of law form, as long as I go through an FFL?

I've shot since I was a child, but not the past decade or so, so I haven't been keeping up with the laws. I see now that there's a safety certificate that you need to pass a simple test to get. Do I need to get that certificate before I sell these? I've taken some sample tests online and it's pretty basic stuff.
To sell you do not need FSC, that's only to buy. It's pretty easy and doesn't take long though.
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Old 06-22-2022, 4:03 PM
tap4154 tap4154 is offline
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I really appreciate the replies guys. I actually forgot that I created a thread back in 2018 when I first moved into the house about selling these, and just went back and reread it. Then I got involved in other things, and just left the guns locked up. The P7 I have is a 1984, IE Chantilly serial number, has the serialized box and everything else that came with it. I actually don't think it's ever been shot. Dad bought a VP70 before the P7, and that's the one that he took out shooting.

I'm more of a revolver guy, though I have a second generation Glock 23 that I purchased back in the day as well. Those are what I'll keep, as well as some others.
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Old 06-22-2022, 5:04 PM
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If you are in CA, you might want to list on CALGUNS. No extra fees for you if it goes as a in person sale.
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Old 06-22-2022, 6:08 PM
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Thanks Spanky, I just might do that. I am in SoCal (OC).
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Old 06-24-2022, 6:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
But, you're operating on a false premise: "they have to be in my name first". That is not checked, because it is not the law that guns must be 'registered', in general (there are special cases). You can go ahead and sell any of the guns you own, through a CA FFL or through an out of state FFL, without bothering about the OPLAW.
I'm not arguing this point but am trying to understand. I agree that the law doesn't require a firearm to be registered in order to sell it. But doesn't the law require that any firearm that changes hands, even through inheritance/trust, has to be registered to the new owner? Isn't that basically what the OPLAW does?

I'm helping a widow with this issue and my DOJ rep said to do the OPLAW transfer before she sells them. That doesn't make it law, but I have generally found her to be pretty accurate in her advise. From a practical perspective, I suspect DOJ would not really care; they want to know where its going more than where its been or how it got there. And if sold out of state via GB, DOJ would never know.

I have another question but its probably simpler to ask it in a separate post.
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Old 06-24-2022, 6:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
AFAIK, if the firearms are not specifically listed on the trust, then they are not legally a part of the trust. [PC 16960]
I met with an estate attorney yesterday about my parent's trust. I asked him if everything they owned of value needed to be listed in the trust. He said generally no. Bank accounts and real estate definitely need to be specifically listed but personal property does not. If there are multiple beneficiaries or if there are high value items of personal property it can be helpful to list them not not required.

I could have gotten this wrong, but its how I understood his answer.
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardo1895 View Post
I'm not arguing this point but am trying to understand. I agree that the law doesn't require a firearm to be registered in order to sell it. But doesn't the law require that any firearm that changes hands, even through inheritance/trust, has to be registered to the new owner? Isn't that basically what the OPLAW does?

I'm helping a widow with this issue and my DOJ rep said to do the OPLAW transfer before she sells them. That doesn't make it law, but I have generally found her to be pretty accurate in her advise. From a practical perspective, I suspect DOJ would not really care; they want to know where its going more than where its been or how it got there. And if sold out of state via GB, DOJ would never know.

I have another question but its probably simpler to ask it in a separate post.
You are correct; supposed to file the paper.

In the case of the OP, the likely transfer in 2017 should have had that paper then.

But not having the gun(s) associated with a seller in CA's AFS is not a barrier (in 2022) to selling.

I think we can infer from the enforcement (or, lack of it) that CA has chosen to concern itself with the new owner records.
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– Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

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