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  #1  
Old 05-27-2022, 6:20 PM
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Default Sit outside while children are being shot

I know the investigation isn’t complete so at this point is ostensively conjuncture but a few things I have seen reported from multiple independent sources are:

Several officers were outside the for an hour while that thing was murdering innocent children for about an hour.

Parents trying to save their children were detained and even handcuffed

A child inside made 4 separate 911 calls over 20 minutes and officers on site did nothing


Several children bleed out while officers were outside detaining parents


How how how how dose this happen?
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Old 05-27-2022, 6:49 PM
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Agreed.. When the time comes, you move forward with whomever is with you, and you take action. Monday-morning quarterbacking be damned.
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  #3  
Old 05-27-2022, 8:17 PM
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Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
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  #4  
Old 05-27-2022, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizmoSD View Post
Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
I agree 100%.
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  #5  
Old 05-27-2022, 9:57 PM
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https://people.com/crime/police-offi...alde-shooting/

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Pete Arredondo, the chief of police for the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District, stopped at least 19 officers from breaking into the school as the gunman opened fire.
Chief of police is quite a title. When his entire dept is himself and 5 security guards. But as Chief he had jurisdictional command of the scene. and everyone else on scene deferred to him. WTF.

It was on his orders that the 20+ cops from 5 Agencies stood down?

The entire Uvalde Police Dept, US Marshals, Texas Rangers, and CBP tactical team did nothing because of this guy?

UN-F'n-believable.
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  #6  
Old 05-28-2022, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GizmoSD View Post
Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
Yea,


There were, from reports, 4 to 24 armed men with body armor who had sworn to uphold the laws of Texas standing outside the incident from before the first child was shot until after the last one was killed.


How in the **** do you live with yourself if you stood outside with nothing more than swim trunks, flip flops and a BB gun and didn’t die trying to save those kids?


Texas doesn’t need to replace the police with social workers, they are already there.
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  #7  
Old 05-28-2022, 5:18 AM
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The incident commander who made that call should be put down or away. Some cop with balls and brains should have put him in custody and taken the door. Or windows. He is now a target I bet.
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  #8  
Old 05-28-2022, 6:23 AM
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Here is a 911 emergency call timeline McCraw outlined at a news conference:


12.03pm – The first call comes from a little girl who says she is in room 112. “She identified herself and whispered, ‘He’s in room 112’,” McCraw says, without identifying the pupil.

12.10pm – The same girl calls back and advises there are multiple people dead.

12.13pm – The girl calls again.

12.16pm – She calls back and says there are eight to nine students alive.

12.19pm – A 911 call is made from the phone of another child, in room 111. She hangs up when another student tells her to hang up, McCraw says.

12.21pm – Authorities hear on the 911 call that three shots are fired. (It was not clear which 911 call they were listening to at that time.)

12.36pm – A 911 call is made that lasts for 21 seconds.

Unspecified time – The initial caller calls back and is told to stay on the line and be very quiet. She tells 911 “that he shot the door”.

12.43pm and 12.47pm – “She asked 911 to please send the police now,” McCraw says.

12.46pm – She says that she can hear the police next door.

12.50pm – Shots can be heard on the 911 call, McCraw says.

12.51pm – The 911 call is very loud and it sounds like officers are moving children out of the room. “At that time, the first child that called was outside before the caller cuts off,” McCraw said.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...uring-massacre
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2022, 6:43 AM
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Quote:
Pete Arredondo, the chief of police for the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District, stopped at least 19 officers from breaking into the school as the gunman opened fire.
He was elected to the Uvalde City Council three weeks before. He campaigned on communication and "reaching out to those in need".

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...unse-rcna30910
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  #10  
Old 05-28-2022, 8:46 AM
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Sounds like a bunch of dudes lining up to make Lt.. Yeah I said it.
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  #11  
Old 05-28-2022, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by badfish71 View Post
Sounds like a bunch of dudes lining up to make Lt.. Yeah I said it.
Fox one fox one!
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  #12  
Old 05-28-2022, 9:19 AM
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Not all are like that , friend advised that he saw on tulsa news, a training segment with new recruits, being told, as soon as you arrive you will go in, expect that you will be shot, BUT you will also stop the bad guy. that is what you signed up for. Then the rookies started (in an empty) school clearing tactics in ones and twos. That is how it should be done

I blame this ALL on "defund the police", "He didn't haave to be shot" , " he was always such a good boy" mentality,and the media is just a much to blame by brocasting these people without appropriate commentary of the opposite view
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  #13  
Old 05-28-2022, 9:32 AM
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FF90, I’m sure we all realize training and real life are completely different animals. I’ve seen huge fat tubs of lard “successfully” complete IARD training. Embarrassing.

Go live, totally different story.
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Old 05-28-2022, 9:36 AM
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yea sounds like a lack of leadership i was confused why a border patrol agent went in i guess he said someone needs to do something and if not me who?
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Old 05-28-2022, 9:56 AM
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yea sounds like a lack of leadership i was confused why a border patrol agent went in i guess he said someone needs to do something and if not me who?
This article from the Daily Wire states that he was nearby getting a haircut when his wife, who is a teacher at the school, called and told him there was an active shooter. He borrowed a shotgun from the barber and went to the school. Upon arrival, he saw the local cops not doing anything and went in. A round grazed his head as he entered the classroom. There’s a picture of his hat included the article.



https://www.dailywire.com/news/new-d...illing-shooter
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Old 05-28-2022, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizmoSD View Post
Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
I agree as well!

I've still got buddies on the job at my old agency, the stories they tell of some of the recruits. Someone correct if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, departments want pencil pushing mangers and report takers, not cops!
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Old 05-28-2022, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pitbuljake View Post
I agree as well!

I've still got buddies on the job at my old agency, the stories they tell of some of the recruits. Someone correct if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, departments want pencil pushing mangers and report takers, not cops!
Accurate af. Here is the transition: warriors….guardians…reporters. We are now between attorneys and secretaries. What’s coming next is worse though, and is already underway. The personal enforcers of ideologies from city councils or Board of supervisors.
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2022, 2:53 PM
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Hats off to the valiant BORTAC agents who finally put a stop to the insane carnage. [yes pun intended]

https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status...illing-shooter
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Old 05-28-2022, 4:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
Here is a 911 emergency call timeline McCraw outlined at a news conference:


12.03pm – The first call comes from a little girl who says she is in room 112. “She identified herself and whispered, ‘He’s in room 112’,” McCraw says, without identifying the pupil.

12.10pm – The same girl calls back and advises there are multiple people dead.

12.13pm – The girl calls again.

12.16pm – She calls back and says there are eight to nine students alive.

12.19pm – A 911 call is made from the phone of another child, in room 111. She hangs up when another student tells her to hang up, McCraw says.

12.21pm – Authorities hear on the 911 call that three shots are fired. (It was not clear which 911 call they were listening to at that time.)

12.36pm – A 911 call is made that lasts for 21 seconds.

Unspecified time – The initial caller calls back and is told to stay on the line and be very quiet. She tells 911 “that he shot the door”.

12.43pm and 12.47pm – “She asked 911 to please send the police now,” McCraw says.

12.46pm – She says that she can hear the police next door.

12.50pm – Shots can be heard on the 911 call, McCraw says.

12.51pm – The 911 call is very loud and it sounds like officers are moving children out of the room. “At that time, the first child that called was outside before the caller cuts off,” McCraw said.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...uring-massacre
Having spent some time as a dispatcher, I'm wondering what happened with the hand off. If dispatch knows there are still kids alive, why the *#&@ would the incident commander tell people they are not?

I would know SOMEBODY in the field and get them to call me to explain that there are kids, inside the room with the shooter and they are still alive.

I know a number of officers for whom that would be enough to escalate up the chain of command quickly.

I'm not in law enforcement, but I do work IMTs. If I'm getting calls from the field that such-and-such is happening, I do not sit on that information. I force it through the proper channels.
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Old 05-30-2022, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizmoSD View Post
Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
I completely agree with you. All I will say is thank goodness the BP told the incident commander to f**k off and went in to handle business.
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2022, 5:50 PM
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Where are the Kyle Rittenhouses of the world when you need them?
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Old 06-01-2022, 5:57 PM
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I'm dating myself, but when my Academy Class (here in CA) was tested on the active shooter scenario anyone that entered the building when shots were heard failed the scenario exam.

Anyone that stood outside flabbergasted whether or not they knew what they hell they were doing passed the active shooter exam.

All military vets failed with about 1/2 the rest of the class.

We all had to do it again and just stand out side and ramble all of the stuff we would do and call for help but never enter the building regardless of the sounds coming from inside.
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Old 06-02-2022, 1:40 PM
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I suppose I learned somewhere along in my 30 years as a LEO (and after embarrassing myself on occasion with authoritative opinions) not to judge anything until all the facts were in or unless I was a witness or participant in an event.
I'm still standing by till the fat lady sings before I form an opinion as to the circumstances surrounding the events at Uvalde, TX.
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Old 06-02-2022, 7:10 PM
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From Texas Senator Gutierrez:

Gutierrez said calls from students who were facing gunfire were dispatched to a City of Uvalde police officer, not school district Police Chief Pete Arredondo, who was leading the response.

“The 911 calls were not being communicated to the so-called incident commander Officer Arredondo,” Gutierrez said. “They were being communicated to an Uvalde police officer and the state agency who I have spoken to has not told me who that is.”

…….

So their radio traffic only goes to one specific cop? No patches during a critical incident, no mutual comms… I find that hard to believe.
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Old 06-02-2022, 7:20 PM
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Similar to Tyke, I’m reserving judgement as hard as it is.

I will say, however, I find the inability to patch plausible. For example, CHP can jump onto my/our channel, but not vice versa. I can’t even scan their channel on my car or portable radio. So, if CHP was assisting me on a call and they jump onto my channel, they wouldn’t hear what they have going on on their channel.

Is it a valid “justification?” I don’t know. Due process, yeah? We have to give some benefit to these officers as I couldn’t possibly see all of them standing by to stand by. One or two? Maybe, but even then I think that’s generous.
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Old 06-03-2022, 8:17 AM
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Anyone who has worn the badge for any length of time knows full well that communication breakdown between agencies is the downfall of any critical incident. And, it prevails nationwide and even within agencies.
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Old 06-03-2022, 7:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizmoSD View Post

So their radio traffic only goes to one specific cop? No patches during a critical incident, no mutual comms… I find that hard to believe.
Actually. I do. Radio communication is (in my experience) in GOOD ideal times spotty. In a critical incident expect them to simply not work. I've seen some very serious and ongoing safety issues during routine day to day police work. They exist (and will continue to exist) for a lot of reasons, including can't find/hire enough dispatchers, radio systems are a patchwork of outdated cobbled together systems that doesn't have funding to rebuild or update. Not to mention the radios being used in a manner that pushes the limits of their actual capabilities (high band low band, repeaters etc).

Also in an incident like this it's probable that multiple dispatch centers will be fielding calls and all will most likely be completely overwhelmed. Remember staffing is generally just enough to maintain the status quo in normal day to day operations. Relaying information from one agency dispatch center to another dispatch center often involves a phone call, meaning during a critical incident when both dispatch centers are blowing up and dispatchers are overloaded, information will get dropped or not relayed. Meaning not everyone on the ground is working off the same information. Remember the las Vegas shooting? During the incident there were reports of multiple shooters at multiple locations. After the fact it ended up being gunshot victims were staggering into multiple different locations resulting in hundred of simultaneous 911 calls from different locations. Point being in real world not only is the critical real info often lost in the deluge, the real time information that IS known is often wrong.

Mutual coms ... Various significant incidents (ie mutual aid) have highlighted the coms issue. Different agencies can't talk to each other and it causes serious issues. There has been a push to streamline and standardize (such as from FEMA) but there is no standardization. And it's difficult to standardize as different first responder agencies have different missions and SOPs written around those missions. Your big city cops can afford a cutting edge radio system. Small Town, probably not. Your state trooper needs a radio that works anywhere and covers great distance, your city cops need a radio that penetrates buildings well but only needs enough range to get across town. I can and have talked on an allied agency frequency, but keep in mind I'm talking in the blind; they have no idea who I am, my call sign means nothing, hell we don't even use the same 10 code so they won't understand my radio shorthand. Now imagine that in small town USA where suddenly there are 15+ police agencies and 100+ cops on ground and dozens of 911 calls per minute.

I have been involved in enough significant incidents to know that during a real time emergency like this on ground it's pure chaos and you rarely have the information you need to make decisions. And I'm willing to bet most podunk PD supervisors have little to no "battlefield leadership" experience. Mayberry is a great place to live, but when the devil comes to town you're going to be blindsided and in WAY over your head.

Not excusing inaction in the slightest. And I have no idea what happened. But I'm absolutely confident there are a lot of Texas cops right now doing the woulda coulda shoulda.

And I don't really disagree with my peers above. Society wants their cake and to eat it too, but everything has a cost. For the last decade we as a society have been complaining that cops are too militarized, too aggressive. To "fix" that "problem" we've lowering standards, changing training, changing recruiting and in general changing the culture of law enforcement. The flip side of that coin though is you're going to have cops that are less confident and less assertive in a scenario where it's absolutely"go" time.
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Old 06-05-2022, 8:31 AM
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^^^
One of the many things the public doesn't have a clue about when it comes the Law Enforcement work. Very will put..
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Old 06-05-2022, 9:32 AM
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Because we (as a profession) focus on deescalation, inclusivity, diversity, storm water awareness, interactions with dogs, RIPA, etc. Not that that stuff isn’t “important” but it’s significantly changed the mindset and evolved a new type of cop. It’s plastered on every station wall, at the bottom of every command email, and thrown at cops daily. We’ve all just witnessed that front and center. I suspect some of those cops will be prosecuted, like the school cop in Florida or wherever it was that his behind the planter during an active shooter.

Our quals are pathetic, physical fitness is a joke. We’ve neutered the mindset away that the public expects when stuff goes really bad. When bad s#!t is happening, cops should be confident and proficient and handle business. That’s what I expect of myself, my team, and my partners. That’s what I expect to show up if I’m gone and my wife calls 911. I don’t want deescalation or diversity. That’s all peachy…I want someone to handle business and protect my family. They shouldn’t be worried if their boss is going to discover they cussed on BWC. We all know people who shouldn’t be on the job. We’ve all tried to roll up a junk trainee only to be overridden. They “checked a couple boxes” and something was more important. We wouldn’t want someone getting upset, or feeling singled out.

It’s a mess. I’m pissed.
This…..100 percent….this
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Old 06-05-2022, 11:28 AM
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Anyone who has worn the badge for any length of time knows full well that communication breakdown between agencies is the downfall of any critical incident. And, it prevails nationwide and even within agencies.
Yes, and then multiply the confusion many-fold when dealing with uneducated, untrained and no balls supervision. IMHO, if I was onscene there and regardless of who was in charge in this incident, I would have gathered a team and made entry. I would handle the fallout over that decision later but to standby and do nothing is unacceptable.
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Old 06-09-2022, 10:47 AM
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Active Killer Response Training changed 1999 after Columbine.

Waiting for the official TX DPS report. Current questions I have:

Who had eyes in the classroom from outside windows?

If shots were being heard with officers on scene in the hallway...why didn't one of them get/enter through windows+doors into that class room and stop the killing (regardless of the IC/command to stand by)?
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Old 06-09-2022, 4:51 PM
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Yes, and then multiply the confusion many-fold when dealing with uneducated, untrained and no balls supervision. IMHO, if I was onscene there and regardless of who was in charge in this incident, I would have gathered a team and made entry. I would handle the fallout over that decision later but to standby and do nothing is unacceptable.
This is 100% the correct answer. If you have a good partner, you will look at each other and know it’s go time. It’s amazing what two seasoned LEO’s can accomplish. The brass is gonna have your rear end anyway, so might as well make it count.
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Old 06-10-2022, 5:30 AM
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I'm dating myself, but when my Academy Class (here in CA) was tested on the active shooter scenario anyone that entered the building when shots were heard failed the scenario exam.

Anyone that stood outside flabbergasted whether or not they knew what they hell they were doing passed the active shooter exam.

All military vets failed with about 1/2 the rest of the class.

We all had to do it again and just stand out side and ramble all of the stuff we would do and call for help but never enter the building regardless of the sounds coming from inside.
Active Shooter has never been a POST scenario test. That sounds like a test created and proctored by your specific agency. However there is a critical incident scenario which is a shots fired, but not an active shooter. Two different calls with different responses.

Last edited by Escalado; 06-10-2022 at 5:32 AM..
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Old 06-10-2022, 10:29 AM
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Active Killer Response Training changed 1999 after Columbine.

Waiting for the official TX DPS report. Current questions I have:

Who had eyes in the classroom from outside windows?

If shots were being heard with officers on scene in the hallway...why didn't one of them get/enter through windows+doors into that class room and stop the killing (regardless of the IC/command to stand by)?
1. Which classroom? There are 9 adjoining buildings. School windows have high UV reflective glass to reduce sun light intrusion. With approx 475 students there are multiple classrooms.
2. Were shots being fired when I arrived?
3. Do know where to respond to? What intelligence was provided.. if any?
4. Do I know the interior of the complex?
5. Is it a hostage of active shooter situation?
6. How many shooters are there?
7. What weapons do they have?
8. What weapons are available to me?
9. Do I have confidence in the training I've been provided to make a positive and effective decision and/or outcome?
10. If I confront the shooter(s) do I run the risk of hitting others?
11. Will all my shots hit center mass?
12. Is the AH exiting with others exiting the buildings?
The mental list is unending..........

Now...you have 3 seconds to answer all these (and more) while your running to the building with your adrenaline is in full mode the building.

OK...take 5 seconds......cause that's all the time you have. And you have to be correct; no mistakes. Make a mistake in your judgement and you will be headline news for months to come...not to mention mental and emotional burden you'll carry.

Until you've been confronted with a this sort of scenario don't delude yourself into thinking your actions will be 100% correct. Even in police work there is the "fog of war". Running to the sound of guns is what we do. But put kids in the mix and the horrible consequences can be immense.

There is no right way to engage an active shooter because every incident is different and calls for a different response mode. What ever way is chosen, you better be lucky, cause being good doesn't always cut it.
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Old 06-10-2022, 11:11 AM
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The "go to hell plan"

Do they teach that anymore? They used to. It was the first thing that entered your mind because it might be needed the next instant. The first guy arrives and when the second one shows up it takes seconds to agree.

One thing came to mind:

Have you ever heard of a firefighter not going into a burning building when people inside are screaming for help? Could anyone imagine were the school on fire and kids were calling for help that Firefighters would do anything but break down doors in any way possible to gain entry, knowing that it takes only one flashover event to kill them? They don't know what is inside, they have no idea if there is a can of gasoline boiling, they don't know any of it, they go inside knowing the building could collapse.

There is always a go to hell plan, hell showed up. There are always the hundreds of things to think about, right until the kids (in this case) start dying.

Sometimes, the over analyzed, scientific approach concocted in a seminar, pulled out of thin air because what used to be a gun fight is now called a highly kinetic lethal environment simply can't replace immediate action thinking because the wondering about what might go wrong if you're wrong has already gone wrong.

And I'm really sorry if what appears on some headline even comes into your mind, you are thinking about the wrong sht.





.
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Old 06-10-2022, 12:37 PM
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1. Which classroom? There are 9 adjoining buildings. School windows have high UV reflective glass to reduce sun light intrusion. With approx 475 students there are multiple classrooms.
2. Were shots being fired when I arrived?
3. Do know where to respond to? What intelligence was provided.. if any?
4. Do I know the interior of the complex?
5. Is it a hostage of active shooter situation?
6. How many shooters are there?
7. What weapons do they have?
8. What weapons are available to me?
9. Do I have confidence in the training I've been provided to make a positive and effective decision and/or outcome?
10. If I confront the shooter(s) do I run the risk of hitting others?
11. Will all my shots hit center mass?
12. Is the AH exiting with others exiting the buildings?
The mental list is unending..........

Now...you have 3 seconds to answer all these (and more) while your running to the building with your adrenaline is in full mode the building.

OK...take 5 seconds......cause that's all the time you have. And you have to be correct; no mistakes. Make a mistake in your judgement and you will be headline news for months to come...not to mention mental and emotional burden you'll carry.

Until you've been confronted with a this sort of scenario don't delude yourself into thinking your actions will be 100% correct. Even in police work there is the "fog of war". Running to the sound of guns is what we do. But put kids in the mix and the horrible consequences can be immense.

There is no right way to engage an active shooter because every incident is different and calls for a different response mode. What ever way is chosen, you better be lucky, cause being good doesn't always cut it.
You have some great questions and comments, which is why I am waiting on the official AAR. You can go to street view of Robb Elementary and answer the buildings/windows question as I have done.

My post's key stone question is...shots fired while officers on site...the response is simple and should take less than 1 second...identify/direction, close with and stop.
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Old 06-10-2022, 4:25 PM
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You have some great questions and comments, which is why I am waiting on the official AAR.
In this horrible incident. I'm beginning to seriously doubt that any AAR is ever going to describe factual events of that sad day.

The various responders have already presented 14 different stories of events.

Now the School Chief JUST YESTERDAY, claimed he ran to the gunfire. And personally tried over 20 different keys in order to gain entry to the classroom . He also claimed he intentionally left his radio at his office, so he could get on site quicker. And didn't even know that he was supposedly in command.


Curious that the 4 guys from BORTAC that finally executed the entry and did what was needed. Made no mention of him doing any such thing. And they said, they got a "master key" from the friggen janitor. After disobeying his orders to stand down.

Who ya gonna believe? Who can you believe? Who is telling the truth? Who is in CYA mode?

Will we the public ever really know?

Is anybody really stupid enough to believe the "Warren Report"?
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Old 06-11-2022, 7:51 AM
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In this horrible incident. I'm beginning to seriously doubt that any AAR is ever going to describe factual events of that sad day.

The various responders have already presented 14 different stories of events.

How many people were on scene??? That's the number of interpretations you'll get.

Now the School Chief JUST YESTERDAY, claimed he ran to the gunfire. And personally tried over 20 different keys in order to gain entry to the classroom . He also claimed he intentionally left his radio at his office, so he could get on site quicker. And didn't even know that he was supposedly in command.


So he tried the keys he had. Maybe the "janitor" was in the area at the time!!

Curious that the 4 guys from BORTAC that finally executed the entry and did what was needed. Made no mention of him doing any such thing. And they said, they got a "master key" from the friggen janitor. After disobeying his orders to stand down.

So they were able to acquire a master key. Get a grip! You weren't there! You have NO idea what transpired...when or how.


Who ya gonna believe? Who can you believe? Who is telling the truth? Who is in CYA mode?

WRONG! Too many witnesses there to falsify anything.

Will we the public ever really know?

Is anybody really stupid enough to believe the "Warren Report"?
The events will be as factual as they can get...and REAL world...not Hollywood or TV drama. They'll be cold and real. With all the mistakes that humans make.

Until you been confronted with a critical incident, and I mean life and death you have no right to judge (lest you be judged).

There are some who will never believe the truth because it doesn't fit their narrative no matter how blatantly obvious the truth is....

Wait till the facts are in before you go spouting off...
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Old 06-11-2022, 8:50 AM
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Wait till the facts are in before you go spouting off...
pacrat is a supporter of LE. He is seeing the events that happened through a lay person's eyes. Go easy on him. lol


The known facts at this time are...

1. There was an active shooter
2. There were shots being fired
3. Kids and an adult were being murdered
4. For an inordinate amount of time nobody made entry while #3 was happening
5. The BP team said enough and made entry
6. Their seek and destroy eliminated the vermin
7. At this point in time the "Police Chief's" truthfulness and fortitude is suspect

I designed and taught our Active Shooter protocols. I taught the entire department these protocols before the program got sent to our training center, which IMO is not the proper location for this training to be conducted. I used real schools in our communities, with real school teachers and admin staff who wanted to participate present and their numbers of attendance were mind boggling low. I included the hose draggers, ambulance companies, city and county divisions and even the community into the training. There is no time to fiddle f**k around when these things happen, ACT.

I realize the AAR may or may not reveal all relevant facts. The bottom line for me when these kinds of things are happening you HAVE to act, regardless of who is in charge.
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Old 06-11-2022, 9:05 AM
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^^^
Copy all...
30 years of being "second guessed" and the PTSD sneaks back up on me. Makes me
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