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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: With the latest 1/22/2022 Front Sight Restructuring, are you going to:
Stay on as a member and pay all the new fees 6 4.55%
Let my membership lapse and do nothing else. 58 43.94%
Join a class action lawsuit against Front Sight 56 42.42%
Other: explain what you are doing in a post 12 9.09%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 01-25-2022, 8:57 AM
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A lot of people knowingly supported a con artist but were confidant that he wouldn't scam them, for some reason. Now they are shocked and morally outraged only after they themselves were conned but didn't care about the people who were previously conned.
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  #82  
Old 01-25-2022, 9:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DepluribusUnum View Post
Bottom line: what he did was illegal, and it hurt the loyal members the most. It's not illegal to set fair prices according to new market rates, even if it prices some current customers out. It's not illegal to go bankrupt because you can't honor your existing contracts. It is illegal to lie and steal. He offered contracts and collected payment knowing full well that he had no intention of upholding his end, and now he's holding our assets for ransom. He needs to answer for his crimes.

And the crimes are his alone - the facilities, staff and instructors are incredible. The staff and instructors are victims of his crimes just as much as we are.
Trust me, I agree with you 100%. If I didn't I wouldn't have filed a claim to dispute the charge on my card for the upgrade.
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  #83  
Old 01-25-2022, 9:48 AM
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This is not over with yet, it remains to be seen what will transpire down the road a little ways.

All this thread will do is give the naysayers more opportunity to bash anyone who participated at Front Sight.

I am not defending Piazza. He made some serious mistakes, and they were some pretty stupid mistakes IMHO.

But he also created the Largest Firearms Training Facility in the world and has managed to keep it afloat for 25 years.

All I can say is it's not over til it's over.

Randy
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  #84  
Old 01-25-2022, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
I just added some links to the 2nd post of this thread to keep them all in one place. Let me know if there are others I should add. Thanks!


Facebook Group Organizing a Class Action Lawsuit

Front Sight page concerning the January, 2022 Restructuring

PDFs of the Various Front Sight Membership Offer Letters
Can these files be made available to people that don't have a facebook account?
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  #85  
Old 01-25-2022, 10:17 AM
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They've been talking about developing that property for the last decade and a half and it looks like not much has been done since. Shame, since it's a great concept with apparently a lot of buy-in from members, but little movement. That really seems to lead to either gross mis-management or scam.

Also, it's been a while since I looked at their website. Not surprised it was written in what looks like HTML 2.0 and never changed since. Gotta love a company asking for people to invest in a business, yet they don't invest in something as simple as their website.
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  #86  
Old 01-25-2022, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuillermoAntonio View Post
Can someone please paste here the contents of the emails? I didn't receive any.
use https://www.frontsight.com/redo/ to start getting emails again. I just reactivated last night
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  #87  
Old 01-25-2022, 11:05 AM
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Default Great response

Does anyone know Greg Raven, Apple Valley, CA?

He posted his response to the good DR here: https://static.one-armed-man.com/202...-response.html

This is one of the best and most complete responses I have read.
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  #88  
Old 01-25-2022, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1234 View Post
Does anyone know Greg Raven, Apple Valley, CA?

He posted his response to the good DR here: https://static.one-armed-man.com/202...-response.html

This is one of the best and most complete responses I have read.
Very good response, thanks for posting. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
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  #89  
Old 01-25-2022, 12:40 PM
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All members deserve every bit of the financial and emotional pain they are getting.

When you touch fire, it is supposed to burn.

It was obvious what he is. The fact that you didn't see it should make you ashamed.
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  #90  
Old 01-25-2022, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
This is not over with yet, it remains to be seen what will transpire down the road a little ways.

All this thread will do is give the naysayers more opportunity to bash anyone who participated at Front Sight.

I am not defending Piazza. He made some serious mistakes, and they were some pretty stupid mistakes IMHO.

But he also created the Largest Firearms Training Facility in the world and has managed to keep it afloat for 25 years.

All I can say is it's not over til it's over.

Randy
If Piazza was forced out and someone else took over I'd be interested in continuing. But have a hard time doing so while he is still in charge. I'd have no problem paying a daily use fee for classes, etc., but not with Dr. Pizza at the helm. I cannot at this point in good faith give FS my credit card to have on file to charge me monthly dues wondering if the place will still be in business the next time I go out there for a class. What will stop them from continuing to charge us even if the place gets shut down?

I also worry that the place is going to start to decline as far as upkeep, etc. I bet they'll close the pro shop soon, the new food truck will soon be gone, the great instructors will leave and what will be left? Poorly maintained grounds and facilities, crappy instruction and overpriced ammo that we are forced to buy.
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  #91  
Old 01-25-2022, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
I also worry that the place is going to start to decline as far as upkeep, etc. I bet they'll close the pro shop soon, the new food truck will soon be gone, the great instructors will leave and what will be left? Poorly maintained grounds and facilities, crappy instruction and overpriced ammo that we are forced to buy.
It's always your choice; you're never "forced" to buy.
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  #92  
Old 01-25-2022, 2:52 PM
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I was there in the beginning paid thousands for a membership, He could not care less that he was giving memberships way for a couple hundred dollars a few years latter.
He has no conscience. We were the founding fathers and were supposed to get our names engraved in the monument he did not even do that. He went back on everything he said he was going to do unless you forced him to get it and even then only a fraction. I was there when the training was good that was 20 years ago. Now I go to Gun Site, not as often but I am better than I could have ever gotten at FS. He will either file bankruptcy and start it under a new company or best would be if some one who has real money not stole money buys it and re opens it. Either way you can wipe you *** with your life time membership's. I would not travel there for fear on the way they close and you get to Wally World when it not open!!!! IMHO
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  #93  
Old 01-25-2022, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Flamingo.central View Post
Can these files be made available to people that don't have a facebook account?
OK try it now. I put them on a pcloud drive.
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  #94  
Old 01-25-2022, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by w00dmaster View Post
I was there in the beginning paid thousands for a membership, ....
I feel for you. A member sold me a couple of $250 diamond memberships back around 2010. FS then offered me diamond for half price, so I bought a couple more for $125 each! My family and I attended two courses so we felt like we got our money's worth.

I always thought Dr. Pizza was a used-car salesman and automatically junked all his emails and blocked his phone calls. Looks like my ideas of attended FS courses in retirement are dead. Will now investigate Gun Site as it is right up the road from me.
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  #95  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:05 PM
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I blocked Piazzi shortly after I upgraded to President, ironically after my first one on one conversation with him. He was/is obviously on a run away mass of his own creation and I'm a bit surprised he made it this far. That being said I love FS. Love Training there and love being a part of the experiment, just not the constant bigger better deals. I would train there again and may still once the dust settles, but will not spend another dime on the Doctors mismanagement and power trip. Hopefully there will still be a FS worth attending once this is past. Time will tell.

The following people summed it up will for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1234 View Post
My position is simple. The good DR does not have the legal right to unilaterally change the terms, or conditions of a contract. His attempt or statements that he is has changed the contract and anyone who does not agree looses their membership is not legally valid, therefore my membership and contract are still valid. PERIOD!

It is my belief that should you decide for whatever reason to start paying the maintenance fees you will have agreed to his right to change the contract and you have entered into a new contract with Front Sight accepting all the new terms and conditions. I think I read that part of the new terms is he has the right to change the contract terms and conditions at any time. I believe that while you may gain some short term benefits with a last class you will loose in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DepluribusUnum View Post
I made an account here just to reply to this thread. I think we all knew that the business model was unsustainable, and we knew this day was coming. I had taken a few classes with a commander (then founder) membership, and absolutely loved FS when the "Finish the fight" email came out, so I naively gave $1k thinking they had earned it based on the quality and quantity.

Then the Knight offer came out, and I foolishly upgraded just to get the private training about 4 weeks ago. I'd heard great things about the private training, so I went all in.

Now I come to find out that it was all a lie. I get why Frontsight needs to generate revenue - they have to pay staff salaries, utilities and property taxes somehow. Even with the new pay structure, I honestly think the fees are fair given the quality of the facilities and the instructors ($300 for a course, plus an extra $100 or so in ammo markup). I actually would happily accept the new pay structure (even the maintenance fee) but...

What is absolutely unforgivable is the lies. He knew full well when he sent out the thousand or so "finish the fight" and Knight upgrade emails that he had no intention of fulfilling his end of the agreement. These types of restructures don't happen overnight, and it was absolutely in the works 4 weeks ago. That is criminal fraud. Even worse, as part of the Knight upgrade form, you have to check boxes agreeing never to sue and never to say anything bad about Frontsight (agreements which he nullified when he backed out of his end). It is wrong, and it is illegal because it's wrong. Overnight, he turned Frontsight into a criminal organization. Even worse, he is holding everything you've ever bought ransom for $50 a month. Suspending the membership for failure to pay the maintenance fee is one thing, but forfeiting everything I own because of one missed payment I never agreed to is completely unforgivable. That is the provision that will prompt me to join the lawsuit.

The shell game with the FS Bucks and Coins, and all of the "exchange in abundance" talk is just insulting. I may be grateful and generous, but I'm not stupid. If you're going to confiscate my credits, just come out and say it. I wasn't going to use them all anyway (I had millions, now I have a couple thousand).

I will not pay the $50 per month, because I did not agree to those terms and I don't want to convey consent. I will lose everything I've ever bought. This is theft, fraud and a RICO violation. He is no better than any white collar criminal. It's a great facility and organization, run by a common criminal. Everything about FS is world class except the guy at the top. I consider every agreement void, and I've filed disputes on the charges with my credit company. I anticipate that I'll get banned from FS over it, but at least they won't get away with theft from me. If it's worth fighting for, it's worth dying for.

I hope Mr Pizza recognizes the irony of running a criminal organization whose main customers are law enforcement and military.

I would have forgiven the restructuring, because now that it's all said and done, we knew this day would come and the new fees are very competitive with other courses even if you only go once a year. I cannot forgive the lies, the crimes, and the theft.

I've been very depressed since Saturday. It feels like a family member has died. I got so much from the Frontsight instructors and classes, and now it's all over - executed by a mob boss for fun. I can't imagine what the instructors are going through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
This is not over with yet, it remains to be seen what will transpire down the road a little ways.

All this thread will do is give the naysayers more opportunity to bash anyone who participated at Front Sight.

I am not defending Piazza. He made some serious mistakes, and they were some pretty stupid mistakes IMHO.

But he also created the Largest Firearms Training Facility in the world and has managed to keep it afloat for 25 years.

All I can say is it's not over til it's over.

Randy
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  #96  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:17 PM
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Dr. Pizza just sent out another email, this time to those who upgraded. He's already starting to pull the same old tricks. Not going to fall for it this time.


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  #97  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:18 PM
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The NEW front sight money and coin remind me of South Parks segment: Canadough.
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  #98  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:24 PM
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Here is a way to see how many credits you had before the switch.

1) First log into your myfrontsight.com account

2) Once logged in, paste the link below in your browser bar:

https://myfrontsight.com/secure/index.php#/credits

3) This should bring up the old page that showed how many credits you had.
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  #99  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
The NEW front sight money and coin remind me of South Parks segment: Canadough.
Or this:



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  #100  
Old 01-25-2022, 4:31 PM
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You mean F$ money is like itchy and scratchy land money?

https://youtu.be/K-6IzkDyl9Q
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  #101  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Here is a way to see how many credits you had before the switch.

1) First log into your myfrontsight.com account

2) Once logged in, paste the link below in your browser bar:

https://myfrontsight.com/secure/index.php#/credits

3) This should bring up the old page that showed how many credits you had.
thanks for this. Just took a screen shot. ~5M. Worthless
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  #102  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Dr. Pizza just sent out another email, this time to those who upgraded. He's already starting to pull the same old tricks. Not going to fall for it this time.
\]
So Vinnie, if I recall correctly, you just spent 1999 for the upgrade correct? So if his math is correct, (long shot here), then if the other 30k members also gave him 2k or so, he is telling us, he needed 60 MILLION DOLLARS to fight the lawsuit?

Classic Piazza
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  #103  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:22 PM
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Thanks, also, to acegunnr!!!
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  #104  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
So Vinnie, if I recall correctly, you just spent 1999 for the upgrade correct? So if his math is correct, (long shot here), then if the other 30k members also gave him 2k or so, he is telling us, he needed 60 MILLION DOLLARS to fight the lawsuit?

Classic Piazza
Correct, the Knight upgrade was $1,997. The reason I upgraded was for the perk of being able to bring up to 9 people at a time for private classes. I could have cared less about all the other crap promised in the upgrade.

Now to take a private as a Knight it's $400/per day/per person.

The follow-up emails where he starts to walk back previous statements and offering up things to make up for it, he's already starting to back himself into a corner again.

I jsut wish he would have abandoned the whole idea of creating a resort with all the other crap like the hotel, RV park, etc., and just kept it the way it is/was strictly as a firearms training institute. Cancelling the kids classes was a mistake as well, IMHO.
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  #105  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Here is a way to see how many credits you had before the switch.

1) First log into your myfrontsight.com account

2) Once logged in, paste the link below in your browser bar:

https://myfrontsight.com/secure/index.php#/credits

3) This should bring up the old page that showed how many credits you had.
Thank you! It worked I can see, prove what was taken.
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  #106  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:35 PM
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[QUOTE=Vinnie Boombatz;26579655]Dr. Pizza just sent out another email, this time to those who upgraded. He's already starting to pull the same old tricks. Not going to fall for it this time.

Vinnie, Any way to get a full copy of this? I can't seem to copy it and when I get sent to some other ingur site it dosn't seem to have the full email.
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  #107  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:47 PM
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Default RE: Knight upgrade email

There is no way he can prove , document half the things he said in this email to try and persuade you or a court he didn't commit fraud.

I like how he claimed to think 30,000 member would jump up and send him money. The top ask was for $2000.00 then there were many others at lower price points. If we use 25% of the top ask as an average that would mean he expected $15,000,000.00 as a low end. Just how far in the hole is he? Or perhaps another way to say it is just how delusional is he?
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  #108  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:47 PM
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[QUOTE=Sam1234;26579879]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
Dr. Pizza just sent out another email, this time to those who upgraded. He's already starting to pull the same old tricks. Not going to fall for it this time.

Vinnie, Any way to get a full copy of this? I can't seem to copy it and when I get sent to some other ingur site it dosn't seem to have the full email.
Here's a PDF copy.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Knight copy.pdf (338.3 KB, 15 views)
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  #109  
Old 01-25-2022, 5:52 PM
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Default at least he got 3 homes from us!!!

I am pretty sure he had a disclosure line that said he could do this at any time. So there will be no recourse. We at least we all bought him 3 million dollar plus homes!!!!!
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  #110  
Old 01-25-2022, 6:41 PM
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The really stupid thing about this, having read a bunch of the things placed here, is that if he would have simply asked $100 per member / per year, then according to the numbers I read here, he would be taking in $27,000,000 per year. If only $50 per year, it was $13,500,000.

How much did he really need? As far as building the resort, he could easily delay and build up the coffers by creating a foundation to invest the money using a licensed, well established, independent firm to grow the money.

He would've solved much of the problem he had in about 5-10 years and then be able to build the dream, as it were. And I think we'd all spring for $100 per year. That's with no other fees at all.
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Old 01-25-2022, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersapper View Post
The really stupid thing about this, having read a bunch of the things placed here, is that if he would have simply asked $100 per member / per year, then according to the numbers I read here, he would be taking in $27,000,000 per year. If only $50 per year, it was $13,500,000.

How much did he really need? As far as building the resort, he could easily delay and build up the coffers by creating a foundation to invest the money using a licensed, well established, independent firm to grow the money.

He would've solved much of the problem he had in about 5-10 years and then be able to build the dream, as it were. And I think we'd all spring for $100 per year. That's with no other fees at all.
I wonder if his total member numbers include all the membership certificates out there. That would certainly inflate the numbers. I still have a bunch of Diamond memberships I'd planned to gift.


Agree, if he's said some reasonable number it would have been less obnoxious. Might have even worked. Maybe his true plan is just to wipe everything out and start over, perhaps even bankruptcy and sell the place and assets.
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It's a muzzle BRAKE, not a muzzle break. Or is your muzzle tired?
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  #112  
Old 01-25-2022, 7:24 PM
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acegunnr acegunnr is offline
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Just added more links to the 2nd post of this thread that includes all the Skills Test and Dry Practice Manuals.
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  #113  
Old 01-25-2022, 7:26 PM
eaglemike eaglemike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Just added more links to the 2nd post of this thread that includes all the Skills Test and Dry Practice Manuals.
Thanks!
I was supposed to get all the books mailed to me, but it never happened.
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Don't be a Jake!

It's a muzzle BRAKE, not a muzzle break. Or is your muzzle tired?
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  #114  
Old 01-25-2022, 8:04 PM
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Piazza is a liar. Was in the past, and very likely will continue to be in the future. This is the reason I refused to buy into any of his upgrades promising unrealistic things. His back stories are so ridiculous I feel embarrassed for him. I went for the training and didn't care about "assets". I got good value out of that. If Piazza wants to earn back any semblance of member trust, he needs to well.... stop lying and make good on his promises.
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  #115  
Old 01-25-2022, 8:20 PM
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Who would trust Nash to not charge a crippling HOA / resort fee?

How could anyone trust him with money?
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Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs)

Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
(thanks to Jeff Cooper)
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  #116  
Old 01-25-2022, 8:25 PM
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LOl be sure to find the emails where he stated FS was fully funded and he was turning it over to the founders i thought this year
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  #117  
Old 01-25-2022, 11:36 PM
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Default *NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

When you go you the ransom, monthly membership payment, there is this check box. You have to click it to continue. Pretty troubling.

So basically you have to agree that EVERYTHING is NON refundable?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Last edited by xSlapshotx; 01-25-2022 at 11:40 PM..
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  #118  
Old 01-26-2022, 6:04 AM
w00dmaster w00dmaster is offline
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Default People warned about him for decades

I was on this forum for years about 4 years ago. I only bought a original $3400 membership that would include your wife for free. I resisted all his offers for almost 20 years. I was berated and made fun of by people on this forum every time I posted and was even referred to as 5 o clock Charley like on Mash as I came one every week like clock work. I really feel sorry for the money that was stolen from you. I was there and needed a qualification once for Utah permit to carry usually a simple deal find a instructor go to a open range at noon and done. No one would help me. Finally I was told that no one wanted to work extra until front site paid them. They were 3 weeks behind in pay roll. I asked how often does this happen they said they are always behind a week or so. Pizzo lived a high roller life hob knobbing with the high society while not paying his employees even close to on time. Many of you reading this were or are instructors there I could tell by your relentless defending of him. He got every one who gave him one dime beyond the basic member ship. I do not believe one thing that comes from his mouth. He has to live with the fact that now the world knows what a P.O.S he really is. Its not speculation any more its the truth. When a man dies all he can hope for is that he leaves a legacy of being a good person, no one will ever say that about Pizzo. He has million dollar homes built on the back of his members and staff. I got my money's worth I was there dozens of times for $3400 and I have a gun business and was able to right off the cost of the membership as I am an instructor so needed the training. Other were not so lucky. When a deal seems to good it always is!
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  #119  
Old 01-26-2022, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xSlapshotx View Post
When you go you the ransom, monthly membership payment, there is this check box. You have to click it to continue. Pretty troubling.

So basically you have to agree that EVERYTHING is NON refundable?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I realize that for many here this is simply one one more nail in the coffin, and while there are probably very few people who would agree and sigh this, I guarantee there are people out there signing and sending in their money right now.

The question is, how many, and how much will Dr half baked pizza be able to stretch the creditors out? How many new schemes will come up with in the coming days, weeks, or months?
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  #120  
Old 01-26-2022, 7:49 AM
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Default Update #3

This "update" includes a promise to provide you with an update tomorrow that is quite spectacular!!

Wow..... I like spectacular. I wonder what it could be? Free ice cream for life? Bags of pixie magic dust? OK, maybe not magic pixie dust. I understand the quality of magic pixie dust has gone down and therefore the good DR can't deliver this.

Maybe this was all a bad April fools joke? Sadly no, it is real.
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