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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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Congratulations !! |
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When stress levels are high, the brain will often default to whatever action has been practiced the most as a response to a given stimuli. On the street that may equate to shooting someone who didn't need to be shot, doing a mag dump when one, two, or three rounds were all that was required, etc., and one example in competition is how you can walk a stage ten times, do another ten reps visualizing it in your head, and then come out and shoot it in a different order, while you witness it in real-time, almost from a third-person perspective, yet are unable to change course in the moment. Sometimes that's due to lack of experience, but it's often due to having a lot of reps of a particular response to a particular stimulus, so many that the response has been deeply engrained as a neural pathway. Then, under a certain type and level of stress, that neural network then runs like a "subroutine" in a computer in that once "play" is pressed, it's going to run until it's finished. Now, whether he would have gotten training scars from attending a few matches is a different subject, but my opinion is that he would be fine attending some matches, and probably better off for it. But he's not wrong as to his theory that you (could/can) develop training scars, but there are a lot of variables that go into that...and as mentioned in one of my earlier comments, for most people it's not going to be an issue.
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-10-2021 at 12:08 PM.. |
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I've heard Bill Rapier, Kyle Defoor, and Tom Kier all describe "fighting" as being comprised of three fundamental components: Time, Force, and Space, and that you need to control two of those variables to own the fight (all of those guys are Sayoc Kali practitioners, so they either got it from Tom Kier, and/or it came from the Sayoc system). In terms of controlling Space, I believe Cornering is the core, foundational skill/tactic everything else is built on. The world is made up of corners (or at least objects, structures, and people that can 'be cornered') a typical doorway has three (top and sides), an upstairs/basement door may have four (bottom), a car has corners (top, bottom, and sides). Anytime you are using cover or concealment you are cornering, even if there's a single tree in a wide open field between you and the threat, that tree may need to get worked like a corner, albeit from a distance. Stairwells are full of nasty corners, I'm looking at one right now that requires dealing with 7 corners to get to, and off, the top landing, and that's a single floor of stairs. Just clearing a closet in your home is going to involve decisions regarding which side/corner of the door to set up on, what does the threat see from his perspective, etc. Other than the 50/50, 1 vs. 1 Stand-and-Deliver gunfight, a dynamic encounter is probably going to involve angles and corners. My point: It would be useful to find an instructor capable of doing a deep dive on cornering. That person may even be someone who doesn't shoot as well (technically) as you, as long as they know what you're there to learn. It's not wizardry and it's not that complicated, but there are a few core principles to understand, and then if you want to be able to access it (efficiently) under stress, it needs to be repped in FoF to bake it in. With regards to FoF: It's a great training modifier, but there is good FoF training, and there is mediocre FoF training. If the instructor you are thinking of training with is not already widely known for delivering credible FoF training, then the minimum qualification I would be looking for is a relevant certification from a credible organization, such as the Simunition FX Scenario Instructor and Safety Certification. https://simunition.com/en/training_c...ly/description. That won't tell you if the so-certified instructor is a Jedi in that niche, but it does mean they'll understand all of the safety issues of FoF as well as the basics of how to construct and run scenarios. Tangentially, here's a good article from a guy with a lot of experience teaching force-on-force: https://www.defensivecarry.com/threa...ntation.26284/ Probably the two most crucial aspects (after safety) to good FoF, are (1) that it's structured and run in a way that precludes any sort of gaming--and having an agreement beforehand with the students (and role players) not to game, isn't enough. It has to be baked into the way the course is run. And (2), just like developing technical shooting skills, it has to be done with enough repetition that actual learning occurs (retained to long-term memory and accessible when in sympathetic state). A few FoF scenarios in a year might be fun, but the benefits will be negligible compared to getting 20 or 40 hours of structured FoF. And if an 8-hour block of FoF instruction doesn't provide you at least, say, 15 reps of man-on-man or man-on-men, it probably isn't worth your time (imagine doing 15 reps of dry firing a new drill and expecting it to take, and FoF is considerably more complex than that). The reason FoF is usually conducted without enough repetition typically comes down to resources: Sims rounds, and the kits to run them, are expensive, as are role players, specifically ones who have the maturity to always act in teaching mode versus ego mode, and the toughness to sustain lots of hits without slipping from teaching to ego mode. That's where airsoft comes in: Inexpensive to run multiple scenarios and less liability exposure. In a perfect world we'd be running sims, all day long, wearing a mask that allows us to get our real cheek weld (if on long guns) and using whatever sighting (and lighting) system we have set up on our carry weapon. Airsoft comes in as pretty close second in terms of realistic weapon handling (excluding reloads), and if you keep students to a single layer of clothing, they can still feel the hits, you just have to pay more visual attention to keeping them honest with regards to the hits they take, given there won't be any paint as evidence, and students (and role players) default to sneaky tricks unless trained otherwise. I'd also look for a FoF instructor that starts off slow (Crawl-Walk-Run) because, while "stress inoculation" is a good thing, too much stress, too early in the learning process, can have a negative impact on learning and operational effectiveness. Seems like common sense, but there are a few schools out there that have "stress inoculation" conflated with hardening up. Lighting trainees up with mag dumps or otherwise crushing students in the Crawl and Walk phases is counter productive and sometimes achieves the complete opposite of the desired effect. Also know that, a guy with a primarily LE background is (typically) going to teach one type of cornering (typically slower/methodical) and someone who was an assaulter in the military is going to have a different take on it (Different threats, different rules of engagement, different liability, different resources, different training). Both styles can/may be applicable for your purposes, as long as you understand the Why behind the differences. I can't speak to HYVE as I have not trained with them. It looks like they have some guys with solid experience on staff...that doesn't always equate to expertise in a niche, but it's more likely than at a school with less-qualified instructors. I'll be interested to read your AAR if you train with them. If you were planning on doing a deep dive into FoF, I would add this guy to your list https://surefire.news/warfighter-academy-training/ with some caveats. He is Jedi-level, in a number of areas I would classify him as "without equal"...but I won't say that all of his concepts meet that standard, which is why I recommend him only if you are going to also train with someone else (so you can have a point of reference to compare his teaching to, and then to then filter out what you need). He also has experience successfully using what he teaches, in combat. Like I wrote, he's Jedi-level at what he does, but not where I'd go if I was only ever taking one FoF course. But if you are committed to developing real skill in that niche, he is a must-train-with IMO. Edit: here's my AAR of a course that was focused on solo clearing with the goal of extracting yourself and/or an unarmed person from an active shooter-type situation. Very different than pairs/team clearing. I forgot to add Graham to the list with Bill Rapier and Craig Douglas, but his course is attendance-worthy as well: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1322075
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-10-2021 at 11:57 PM.. |
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Wow, this thread turned out to be so much better than I thought. Thanks to everyone that contributed. It was extremely eye opening.
I heard Rob Leatham tell a class of "operators" that he was there to teach them how to shoot fast and accurate. He was not a tactical guy. But, he didn't think you would want to break into his house.... I think a lot of this depends on what you want to learn from a tactical type class. For me, I don't have a CCW, so I am not going to have an encounter in the bank or 7-11 or whatever where I need to draw and engage bad guys. My engagements are going to be in my house if they ever happen. I have also predetermined, what I will or will not defend with lethal force. It is pretty simple, just me and my family. So the tactics I need to practice and understand relate to those options. That is what I practice and drill. Bad guys entering from different places, going to different places with various family members in various places. In the dark, in the light and so forth. How to get to our safe room and defend vs how to escape vs a running fight. I try and take classes around learning those types of skills. One thought. I agree with Rod about being one of the good shooters in a tactical class, but not the same in a comp class (I am also a B class shooter). If you watch of the the Navy SEAL videos where they shoot their handgun test, any B or C class guy could smoke them. However, I don't think the same in regards to doing that when 10 bad guys are shooting at me after I just jumped from a plane and hiked 5 miles. |
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Unless you are on the job (LEO, armed guard or military) your need for tactics is less important than your need for on demand performance of the fast draw and quick accurate shot placement and target assessment. This is where competition comes in.
The chance of you getting into a fire fight is already small, its even smaller that you get into one with someone that is equally or better capable than you if you actually train/compete. |
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You cannot return fire, but you can still do quite a bit to increase your chances. Especially if there are others around who panic and provide a distraction. Quote:
It is important to understand how the law works and to understand the difference between "I was protecting my dog" (property) and "An intruder in my house (armed or not) is presumed to have intent of great bodily harm" (self defense).
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Yes, the brain "reverts to training" (in simplified terms), but no, assessing the situation, deciding whether to shoot, movement, cover, clearing rooms and other non-shooting skills are NOT conflated in the brain. These skills are quite different and not directly related. A person will not decide to draw the gun and start shooting everybody in sight with two rounds, or subconsciously skip anyone in a white t-shirt. What will happen is that when the shooting *starts*, the brain will revert to the known pattern of shooting, where the sights and trigger pull will work subconsciously, but the person will still be in charge of target selection. Even in competition, one never engages any object that is not a target. There is no reason a person who trains to *shoot well* will somehow mix shooting with tactics or target selection.
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That is unless there's some sort of Rambo First Blood engagement, and we all know how that goes.
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Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
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Those who practice frequently what they do are invariably better at it when they do it.
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Before there was Polymer there was Accuracy. |
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I'm a bit late to this thread, but here is my 2c.
Competition is a huge benefit to tactical guys and it's only ego that prevents them from competing and becoming better, um, "operators" (better in their field). There is no way around it. It's like going to the gym for an athlete, where core strength is developed so it can be used in any other sport. Shooting on the move, fast target acquisition, understanding the minimal sight picture, trigger control at speed, shooting from awkward position and other elements of competition are the building blocks of the shooting aspect of the tactical engagement. It's a clear cut who will win between two guys with *equal* tactical training going against each other, where one is also a good competitive shooter. The "it will get you killed on the street" is simply not true. Skill doesn't replace tactics, skill complements tactics. I've never heard anyone say "running track will get you killed in a football game." In fact, running track will let you win all but professional games even if you're not good at any other aspect of football.
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Again, I agree and have spent time reading and learning about the law of self defense. My point of reference (for the above) is to try and understand when or why I would draw a weapon and engage in a lethal self defense scenario. Using the color code of mental awareness, you need to understand what you would do if x happens. For me, some of my x's are not available. For example, in a 7-11 that has an armed person holding the clerk while demanding money. I am not going to draw my weapon and kill the bad guy to save the clerk. Without a CCW, the weapon (in this case a gun) is not available to me. I have to think through other options so I can stay alive (first priority) then seeing if I can help save others. For my other possible scenarios, I get my family into a safe area of my house or escape my house with them. I am not shooting a bad guy that is taking my laptop from the office. Even if he potentially had a weapon. I am not in the room (if possible) to make him draw it on me (or my family) and therefore making me respond. I guess I am trying to say, some of the considerations people need to decide upon with a CCW are not present for those without. There are ethical considerations that everyone must decide for themselves. Taking a life is forever. You need to understand and get comfortable with that decision ahead of time should you choose to carry a weapon for self defense. |
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Note: This was in a stairwell that had an alcove over the landing where the (firing) role player was standing. The trainee was literally 6-8 feet from the role player and could have easily looked up and seen him, had he not been first fixated on the doorway at the top of the stairs (and/or had his prior training included enough reps of checking the overhead) and then fixated on the lane grader. This was also not a no-win scenario for the trainee, as the role player followed his instructions to not fire until the trainee had bypassed his position without clearing it, and then to only fire one round, and then give the trainee 30 seconds to find him before repeating his fire-one-round-wait-for-response instructions, until the trainee solved the scenario. I've seen other meltdowns in FoF training, enough to see patterns and to draw somewhat informed conclusions, but that was one of the most dramatic. Since you've done a lot more USPSA than I have, I can only assume that you have seen at least a few competitors (some of them C, B, or higher) burn down a no-shoot that they "knew" shouldn't be shot, or otherwise completely fall apart on a stage they walked ten or more times, because I've seen it at least a couple times myself, and I've only attended about 20 matches. You wrote, "when the shooting *starts*, the brain will revert to the known pattern of shooting", and I agree with that statement. But if we agree with that statement, wouldn't we also have to agree with "when the shooting *starts*, the brain will revert to the known pattern of movement and/or decision making"? "Known" being the key word. Another concept behind what I'm attempting to articulate, is Hebbian Law, aka the neuroscience concept that "Neurons that wire together, fire together...and neurons that wire apart, fire apart". So there's not only the issue of armed professionals learning the right thing in the right order, there's also the issue of designing training so that neural pathways that optimally would be developed in parallel (simple example: being able to draw and accurately fire upon a target while also developing movement and object recognition pathways, and expanded capability to see and process peripheral vision), are often developed in exclusion of each other, making them much more difficult to access when under duress and in the sympathetic (fight or flight) state. So if you are asserting that people won't default to certain automatic responses under enough stress, or that none of those responses will be predicated on how that person has trained in the past, or that some training, while beneficial in other ways, cannot also produce negative operational outcomes when applied as an answer to the wrong stimuli, then I disagree based on my personal observations as well as having done a pretty deep dive into the available literature regarding neuroscience and fighting with guns. And to be clear, I recommend USPSA to armed professionals, as the benefits are there, but we are now discussing the finer side of training, so I'm also not given to say that there aren't things for armed professionals to be aware of and to consider as relates to gun games. But that's all relative to the individual, their job, and whatever other training they engage in, and really not a concern for most people interested in home/self-defense. In other words, competition in general is beneficial for people who would use a gun professionally or in self-defense, with certain caveats for niche groups and niche scenarios, and the "Competition will get you killed" trope is mostly just that, with certain exclusions. Somewhat tangentially...before giving the safety lecture portion of training, I would ask students to raise their hand if "they've ever had the experience of finding missing keys in the refrigerator or some other weird place?" Usually everyone in the room has had that experience. Then, after the safety brief, I ask them why they had to sit through another safety brief and why we are so OCD about safety, and the answer to that rhetorical question is, "because we've all found our keys in the refrigerator". And just to be obnoxious and argumentative (in a friendly manner), I have to say that this analogy ""running track will (not) get you killed in a football game." is memorable but incomplete. Track is a sport, Football is a sport, USPSA is a sport, but fighting with guns is not a sport in that it doesn't have defined rules, pre-known scenarios, start times, and end points, and RO decisions truly are final. And, having run track and played football, I can offer that running cross-country or hurdles in a football game could well get you smashed, because while running may be a part of Track and Football, it's applied differently for each. Which I fully assume is not news to you. I'm always up for debate and for learning from other people's perspectives and experiences, but where I'm not ready to go is imagining that Competition Shooting and Fighting are close to being the same thing just because they have a few commonalities. We can draw some parallels, we can accept that some/much of what must be done to progress in USPSA is beneficial, but there are tangible differences that make absolute apples-to-apples comparisons invalid. Which is why these "will competition get you killed" threads always seem to end up with one side saying Yes, and one side saying No, versus "It depends". I also agree with you that many armed professionals are negative on competition due to ego and/or ignorance, but some of them have legitimate concerns they are working through, which is why I believe it is useful to have these conversations with the nuances included versus polarized all-or-nothing perspectives. I'm looking forward to a thread that asks, "Can tactical training cause you to lose in competition?"
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-12-2021 at 2:21 PM.. |
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Cliff notes? |
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“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”
- Albert Einstein I'm no Einstein, but when we're discussing nuanced training concepts and neuroplasticity as relates to lethal-force decision-making, that's probably the best I can explain myself. Always up for trying though: TL;DR - your brain is complicated, your brain accesses information differently depending on your level of stress, specifically when that stress is of a magnitude to induce flight or flight response. When you learn a skill to the degree that it gets baked into long-term memory, your brain actually changes its physical structure (organically) which is why it's hard to unwire suboptimal skills/habits. There are ways to optimally train your brain for particular circumstances, and there are many other ways to train your brain that will produce less than optimal results. Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges. Competition, in general, is good for everyone with a few nuanced caveats. I'm not arguing, just sharing information gained from experience and study in niche areas of gunfighting and sports performance. I share my perspective for the one or two people interested in that topic and perspective, and always hope to also read comments/perspectives that I can learn from (which this thread has provided). And finally, I could be wrong and full of it in general.
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-12-2021 at 2:27 PM.. |
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People will revert back to training and people can get overwhelmed to the point of doing irrational responses, I know that not only from theory but from many other activities and sports I am, or have been involved in. The training can produce "negative operational outcomes" too. Experienced shooters don't burn down no-shoots, but they do fall apart on executing the plan, or fall back to something quite suboptimal when too many things go wrong. They will also miss arrays after a malfunction causes a change of plan. These are all parts of the game. No disagreement here. What I am saying is that competition shooting is shooting. It's not tactics, it doesn't compare to tactics or clearing houses, it's shooting. Shooting is a skill. A tactical scenario that requires shooting will be executed better if the shooting is better. This means that if the scenario requires X rounds and one person can fire those X rounds in shorter time and with greater accuracy, with more automaticity which leaves brain free for other tasks, that person will do better. Shooting is not a replacement for tactics, so the training and automation of shooting is extremely unlikely to create habits that conflict with tactics. If shooting was creating conflicting learning with tactics, then you could argue that going to gym would interfere with tactics because you'd have an urge to run to the opponent, grab him and do ten squats while holding him. "Going to gym will kill you in the street." In reality, stronger legs that you get from the gym will make the movement better and enable you to move faster, but they won't interfere with the tactics. The same is with shooting.
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Stumpfenhammer, I really like the comment about a gun fight not being a sport with predefined rules and outcomes.
While, the following quote does not directly relate to self defense scenarios, it does shine a light on part of the topic. Richard Marcinko, was the original creator and first commander of SEAL Team 6. He created what he called the 10 commandments of SpecWar. Here are 9 & 10 9. Verily, thou art not paid for thy methods, but for thy results, by which meaneth thou shalt kill thine enemy by any means available before he killeth you. 10. Thou shalt, in thy Warrior's Mind and Soul, always remember My ultimate and final Commandment: There Are No Rules -- Thou Shalt Win at All Cost. |
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Wrong dudes to cross, boy.
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There are training outfits that teach the basics of CQB.
Fieldcraft and Archon Ready Group come top of mind. Archon's is interesting in that you don't even need your gun as they use airsoft guns. |
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Through acquaintances I’ve been fortunate to be exposed with people who have served at the highest units of the military. One thing I don’t think that can be replicated with civilian CQB training is just how close you are and just how close the “bang” is to you.
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If someone is dialed in as far as their technical shooting skills, I can see plenty of value in learning CQB basics and applying those to situations that they may face as a civilian gunowner.
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You’re right there is some value. A lot of what is being taught in those courses are pretty much open source at this point though. This goes back to them not knowing who is attending class. You can get basics from the class, but in reality it’s not much different than the hundreds of videos floating around YouTube already. IMO, learn the basics and go to an air soft match indoors, with rooms and such. You will have some practical application as well if cqb is what you would like to learn.
Last edited by mjv; 10-18-2021 at 12:37 PM.. |
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I have taken a few CQB courses and a few 2 man tactics classes.
Why I found them to be fun. button hooking with a buddy- blasting away I get bored quickly.... I can't scuba dive as its boring- same with sky diving. So finding a class that I find 1)fun 2) challenging 3) new that's fantastic I even have taken some CAR - center axis relock classes. Why Its a new skill that works really well when seated in a car! a few days of the eye doing a hard focus on the front sight, shooting while moving or shooting cross eye dominant in CAR - its all good same with learning how to hide behind telephone poles... 10 round mags vs 33 round mags... missing is slower than hitting. not to bash on anyone, but how many shootings do we hear about where 50-100 rounds are fired and there are a few peripheral hits Where legs are struck- probably from a round that hit the ground first... if you have never taken a class - Add it to your christmas list or Birthday list no one knows what to buy for another adult / spouse. So for $150- get a lifetime membership to front sight and book dates or book a class with Clint Smith in Vegas or jim fuller in Arizona- https://www.facebook.com/fullerphoenixofficial/ or Gunsight or Max Joseph TFTT now DAG https://dag-usa.com/ or Jeff Gonzales- https://www.tridentconcepts.com/ or Randy Cain https://guntactics.com/bio.php or uncle Scotty https://internationaltactical.com/scott.html or????
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Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
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There are a few places that teach beyond the basics though. And while I'm a fan of airsoft as a tool for FoF, and there may be some learning value in an airsoft match (I've shot paintball matches but not airsoft, but I assume the fundamental dynamic is similar), there are also a number of things that people do to be competitive in a paintball match, that could be detrimental in a real threat scenario. Yes, you'll get some experience against other humans, but you'll also be repping some things that will decrease your capability. So if at all possible, I'd recommend getting to one of the higher-level FOF courses before you start using airsoft matches as training tools...that way you'll have enough understanding of the differences to sort out the best way to self-train going forward. I posted a few recommendations 26 posts back in this thread.
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FOR SALE - Orange County • Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM • Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2 Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-18-2021 at 4:03 PM.. |
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Agree… Lots of insightful information that no doubt will add to my knowledge, etc. Quote:
Anyways - as I am not as eloquent with putting thoughts into words as @IVC or @Stumpfenhammer - I will just share a Venn: The rationale being is that Rob coming from the competition world and Mike coming from the LE/MIL perspective collaborate on the common core between “competition” and “tactical” shooting. PS: Got this course for 40% off… … that said - I may be biased - but I feel that competition develops that common core more than any other defensive/tactics class out there… I really love Rob saying, to paraphrase, I will break every QCB rule out there to gain a 0.10-sec advantage on a stage. Tactics is basically dictated by the situation, and I am in a game… Quote:
Well of course - we have exceptions - BJ Baldwin. Pure defensive/tactical shooter that pushed his skill to be able to defend himself and his girlfriend (a top competition shooter) from two armed thugs. And that sentiment is driving me to further training… _
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WEGC - Shooting at 10-yards VS 20-yards - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7mdbNZ4j9U |
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I guess what I’m trying to convey is that we always have room for growth. It’s just not as big as it was when we first started. Sometimes growth can be just as simple as taking those old school Japanese arts and seeing how you can modify them for younger, stronger wrestlers and then actually getting some partners and trying to execute them. Food for thought. |
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Yup! What if an average middle of the pack competition shooter takes a defensive class...? I got off another weekend with Uncle Scotty at ITTS (I take the Masters Class once a year)... Got to shakedown my G21SF as a reposition it for home defense, and get to check out my competition Glock 17 (stock internals) in whatever ITTS throws at you. But the good thing is - yet again, won myself a 2-day class credit worth $525 for winning the man-on-man. There were lots of good shooters in the group. Especially for stand-and-deliver drills (fast draws)... But where my high C/low B class skillset gave me the advantage was in the reloads, splits, transitions and movement. A few examples...
So - I guess even traditional schools like ITTS are realizing the importance of having competition-specific drills/exercises. _ |
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If you're shooting B Class or above, you will be among the top shooters of any class you attend. |
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ITTS always seemed sketchy now there is no doubt.
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ATF Form 4473: If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver, not a handgun or long gun. |
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Although there was a Leatham/Seeklander class where they challenged the students with the question - to paraphrase - “Shouldn’t tactical/defensive shooters be training more? Ten times more than competition shooters? While what is at stake with competition shooters is just a trophy, what is at stake for the tactical/defensive shooters is either your life or your loved one’s…” I went like… Quote:
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On a more serious note, based on your comments - I would say that you missed the point of the video above. But let us leave it at that - you already have made up your mind… Quote:
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