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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 86 8.42%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 681 66.70%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.35%
I paid too much for my Membership! 45 4.41%
They will go out of business this year! 25 2.45%
Don't want anything to do with them! 160 15.67%
Voters: 1021. You may not vote on this poll

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  #12801  
Old 03-24-2021, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
If that is the only you holding you back, it seems like a silly reason.
That's not the only thing. I've shot with many people who graduate each course DG and I'm not impressed with the skills they were taught.
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  #12802  
Old 03-24-2021, 7:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
That's not the only thing. I've shot with many people who graduate each course DG and I'm not impressed with the skills they were taught.
Where have you trained? What do you like better? What skills were lacking?

Always like to learn from a variety of sources.

Thanks!
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  #12803  
Old 03-24-2021, 8:16 AM
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I am interested in those answers as well. I think we are all interested in adding to and improving our training.
I also wonder why you follow this thread if you disdain FS so much.
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  #12804  
Old 03-24-2021, 8:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
Where have you trained? What do you like better? What skills were lacking?

Always like to learn from a variety of sources.

Thanks!

I don't feel I need to validate my training background in comparison to Dr. Iggy's Front Site. Let's just say I was offered a position to be a firearms trainer there about 10 years ago and I declined for a variety of reasons.


Skills lacking from those who attended front site and obtained DG vary from person to person, and these are some of my personal observations during pistol and shotgun competitions.


1 - Turning 180 degrees during a COF putting the weapon in the sul, or high sabrina position. OP gets DQ'd and then argues with the RSO they were being safe.

2 - Buzzer on timer goes beep, OP draws 1911 and immediately discharges a round into ground 3' from RSO. Mind you, this person was a DG of FS handgun combat master, or so they claimed.


Those were the most egregious observations of the front site graduate experiences I've had in my time as a RSO and match director.


Others include many front site attendees who spend a ton of money and end up at the bottom of the list during a simple IDPA COF. Not fast, not accurate and generally have bad habits they picked up from FS like the inability to reload quickly, poor use of cover, unable to manipulate their firearm safety under pressure and more that I'm probably forgetting.
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  #12805  
Old 03-24-2021, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamAllen View Post
I am interested in those answers as well. I think we are all interested in adding to and improving our training.
I also wonder why you follow this thread if you disdain FS so much.
I honestly don't follow this thread. There was a post about trigger weights highlighted in this forum and I wanted to read it.

I read it and I was appalled at the policy. Then reading about the hate for CZ's by the instructors prompted me to say something.


Instructors are there to INSTRUCT, not dictate their views to their students.


Having unsafe equipment is one thing (which the OP clearly did not have), it's another to bash a students equipment based on the instructors views.


Serpa holsters are generally frowned upon by many in the industry because it takes a level of competence to manipulate the holster safely and there are many documented incidents of negligent discharges with a variety of firearms and these holsters.

As such, insurance companies have mandated that instructors not allow these types of holsters for training.

That's an example of a good reason to ban a product.


Because your firearm has a less than 4lb trigger is NOT a good reason to ban a firearm AND if you're going to make that a mandate, you better have calibrated equipment to test with.

My G21 is my fighting weapon. My digital scale comes in at 3lbs. 100% all factory components that I've personally worked on. My G21 runs flawless, but according to FS, I can't use it because of the trigger weight.


Why? Because the gun is unsafe? No, because FS doesn't trust that I can follow the cooper rules of gun safety.

Specifically rule #4 - Keep your booger hook off the bang stick until you're ready.
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  #12806  
Old 03-24-2021, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
I don't feel I need to validate my training background in comparison to Dr. Iggy's Front Site.
I wasn’t asking you to validate your training. I was asking you to share your favorite trainers so that others among us can benefit.

But if you don’t want to help your fellow Calgunner I can’t make you.
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  #12807  
Old 03-24-2021, 9:28 AM
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I wasn’t asking you to validate your training. I was asking you to share your favorite trainers so that others among us can benefit.

But if you don’t want to help your fellow Calgunner I can’t make you.
Sorry, I misunderstood your question.


Gunsite - Can't go wrong here. Just don't buy into the 1911 crowd too much.
Uncle Scotty at ITTS
Aegis Academy - Chris is top notch
ACADEMI - If Bill Go is still teaching there, get a class with him.


I'm sure there are many others, but these are ones I highly recommend.
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  #12808  
Old 03-24-2021, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
That's not the only thing. I've shot with many people who graduate each course DG and I'm not impressed with the skills they were taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
2 - Buzzer on timer goes beep, OP draws 1911 and immediately discharges a round into ground 3' from RSO. Mind you, this person was a DG of FS handgun combat master, or so they claimed.

....

Others include many front site attendees who spend a ton of money and end up at the bottom of the list during a simple IDPA COF. Not fast, not accurate and generally have bad habits they picked up from FS like the inability to reload quickly, poor use of cover, unable to manipulate their firearm safety under pressure and more that I'm probably forgetting.
Let me offer my few cents since I am both a student of Front Sight, I do come back for training whenever I get the opportunity, AND a competition shooter. Albeit, this is from a handgun perspective...

IMO, the FS handgun Distinguished Graduate (DG) is a sort of a "first step" standard to evaluate the marksmanship/handling of shooters. If I remember/understand it correctly - as per FS, better than 95% of all gun owners out there, which will include MIL/LEO.

If you will look at the test - it is way above the standards for most MIL/LEO qualifiers, etc.

However, this test is NOT an evaluation for competitive shooting. There are no movement in the tests, there are no target transitions, etc. Movement in FS Handgun is touched upon in the next level classes upon getting a DG (Tactical Handgun THG, Advanced Tactical Handgun ATHG, etc).

That said - compared to a standard from competition shooting - anyone with at least a C in USPSA or an SS in IDPA could DG the test. Well, on the presumption that Malfunction clearances are good to go; which most competitors are not fairly well-versed, in particular the Type 3s. Yeah - even those without a competitive shooting background but practices diligently can pass the test. It is NOT magic. But because of the ratio of passes to students - it becomes a bit hyped, IMO. I am a member of a few Front Sight groups in Facebook - many think the Handgun DG is the be all end all and they are "good enough," when truly it is just a first step to a shooter's evolution.

Oh, and of course, there are shooters that leave a bad impression, as well. I remember a local match where one was arguing "I can shoot good. I went to FS and DGed," when most were misses outside the 0-down zone and almost DQed with the finger close to the trigger during a reload while moving.


Now - the Handgun Combat Master (HCM) is a different animal. Mind you I have not yet taken the FS class for this; but from what I have read/heard - it is all about near-perfect/consistent PURE/efficient lines to a fixed/known set of disappearing targets under aggressive Par times. Even if the standards of the HCM test matches what Ben Stoeger expects from a B-class USPSA shooter; not many have really passed the test. IMO, the way it seems to be designed is mostly a test of nerves/mental aspects rather than the technique.

Then again - no movement, all from a static position. So, more or less comparing Apples to Oranges.

But, in the 2~3 HCMs that I have had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with at FS - good grasp of theory, very good trigger control, very good index to targets, very good problem solving for tactical scenarios, etc. There are lots that can be learned from them!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
t don't buy into the 1911 crowd too much.
Uncle Scotty at ITTS
Mentioning ITTS... Although there are parts of the curriculum that are top notch, it is not perfect. One thing that comes to mind is even at the Masters Class level, on average, students suck at malfunction handling - it takes them forever to go through even a Type 3 (my personal par is 4-sec). Half of the class cannot even get a center hit on paper on the cold drill (10-yards single shot from the holster).

Compared to the tactical scenarios in FS' more advanced classes (THG/ATHG) or those, say, from Gunsite - ITTS may need to add to their curriculum.

I find the Masters Class more of a "skill builder" class for techniques, etc. from the previous 4 classes.

Moreso... You being in competitive shooting - not that I have anything against ITTS (been a student for 3-years now) - you would agree if I said that if the man-on-man were actually a single shooter (instead of a pair) and allows movement with the gun unholstered - an average competitor has the BEST chances of winning in even a reduced pace (and get a free 2-day class voucher for $500+).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
Aegis Academy - Chris is top notch
I just checked the website - and am warry on this technique, though. Cue to Uncle Scotty going - "... finger on the frame...!"





All in all, the only standard that I am competing against is myself. Am I a better shooter than the day before? Both mentally and physically? Did I learn something new? Some new insight, etc?

With the understanding that there is no monopoly on knowledge/skills/experience - I keep an open mind and learn, even from straightforward introductory shooting classes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Why would an experienced shooter go to a foundational class? Although there are exceptions, I would believe that most of us are not above "basic"/"fundamentals" classes. Firearms is a very perishable skill. It is always good to go back to basics and review the fundamentals of a good marksman. Since the skills are more or less subconscious, it is now easy to give finer attention to trigger control, sight picture/alignment, grip and recoil management, presentation, etc. Now is the time to push the accuracy and speed envelope - smaller groups even at faster speeds.


Why don't you try Front Sight, then make judgement? If it is not as expected, at least you could say from experience. But if it were an enriching experience, all the better. I bet there will be members in this group that will give you a membership to try out (all you need to pay are ammo, lodging, food and transportation).



_

Last edited by rodralig; 03-24-2021 at 1:34 PM..
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  #12809  
Old 03-24-2021, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Let me offer my few cents since I am both a student of Front Sight, I do come back for training whenever I get the opportunity, AND a competition shooter. Albeit, this is from a handgun perspective...

IMO, the FS handgun Distinguished Graduate (DG) is a sort of a "first step" standard to evaluate the marksmanship/handling of shooters. If I remember/understand it correctly - as per FS, better than 95% of all gun owners out there, which will include MIL/LEO.

If you will look at the test - it is way above the standards for most MIL/LEO qualifiers, etc.

However, this test is NOT an evaluation for competitive shooting. There are no movement in the tests, there are no target transitions, etc. Movement in FS Handgun is touched upon in the next level classes upon getting a DG (Tactical Handgun THG, Advanced Tactical Handgun ATHG, etc).

That said - compared to a standard from competition shooting - anyone with at least a C in USPSA or an SS in IDPA could DG the test. Well, on the presumption that Malfunction clearances are good to go; which most competitors are not fairly well-versed, in particular the Type 3s. Yeah - even those without a competitive shooting background but practices diligently can pass the test. It is NOT magic. But because of the ratio of passes to students - it becomes a bit hyped, IMO. I am a member of a few Front Sight groups in Facebook - many think the Handgun DG is the be all end all and they are "good enough," when truly it is just a first step to a shooter's evolution.

Oh, and of course, there are shooters that leave a bad impression, as well. I remember a local match where one was arguing "I can shoot good. I went to FS and DGed," when most were misses outside the 0-down zone and almost DQed with the finger close to the trigger during a reload while moving.


Now - the Handgun Combat Master (HCM) is a different animal. Mind you I have not yet taken the FS class for this; but from what I have read/heard - it is all about near-perfect/consistent PURE/efficient lines to a fixed/known set of disappearing targets under aggressive Par times. Even if the standards of the HCM test matches what Ben Stoeger expects from a B-class USPSA shooter; not many have really passed the test. IMO, the way it seems to be designed is mostly a test of nerves/mental aspects rather than the technique.

Then again - no movement, all from a static position. So, more or less comparing Apples to Oranges.

But, in the 2~3 HCMs that I have had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with at FS - good grasp of theory, very good trigger control, very good index to targets, very good problem solving for tactical scenarios, etc. There are lots that can be learned from them!




Mentioning ITTS... Although there are parts of the curriculum that are top notch, it is not perfect. One thing that comes to mind is even at the Masters Class level, on average, students suck at malfunction handling - it takes them forever to go through even a Type 3 (my personal par is 4-sec). Half of the class cannot even get a center hit on paper on the cold drill (10-yards single shot from the holster).

Compared to the tactical scenarios in FS' more advanced classes (THG/ATHG) or those, say, from Gunsite - ITTS may need to add to their curriculum.

I find the Masters Class more of a "skill builder" class for techniques, etc. from the previous 4 classes.

Moreso... You being in competitive shooting - not that I have anything against ITTS (been a student for 3-years now) - you would agree if I said that if the man-on-man were actually a single shooter (instead of a pair) and allows movement with the gun unholstered - an average competitor has the BEST chances of winning in even a reduced pace (and get a free 2-day class voucher for $500+).




I just checked the website - and am warry on this technique, though. Cue to Uncle Scotty going - "... finger on the frame...!"





All in all, the only standard that I am competing against is myself. Am I a better shooter than the day before? Both mentally and physically? Did I learn something new? Some new insight, etc?

With the understanding that there is no monopoly on knowledge/skills/experience - I keep an open mind and learn, even from straightforward introductory shooting classes...





Why don't you try Front Sight, then make judgement? If it is not as expected, at least you could say from experience. But if it were an enriching experience, all the better. I bet there will be members in this group that will give you a membership to try out (all you need to pay are ammo, lodging, food and transportation).



_

Thank you for a great reply, I actually enjoyed reading that.

As for AEGIS, I think that picture is a poor representation of their training techniques.

Yes, I agree about ITTS. It's not perfect, none of them are as far as I'm concerned because it's all what you get out of your training.

I honestly believe every shooter should find someone who is not only capable of training them, but can do what they're asking of their student only better than the student. Give them a goal to reach, even it it's out of their reach. This will give the student a reason to practice and get better. I see this all the time in competition, everyone looks to the level above them as a measurement.


As you alluded to, FS classes are for the most part, for people who are new to shooting all the way to, let's say Class C USPSA or SS in IDPA. Maybe if you've been to FS many times and taken all the different levels of handgun classes like tactical and combat, then maybe you might be a B shooter or EX.

But like you said, many skills are not practiced and you are spot on about when the firearm jams or fails and how shooters will choke when this happens.


With all that said, the arbitrary rules about a 4lb+ trigger and their level of instruction is much lower than my current toolbox contains. That makes a trip to NV, the cost of ammo, food and my time not worth the expense.
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  #12810  
Old 03-25-2021, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cjbruin View Post
Is that rear sight sharp or did they "de-horn" it?
Sharp and square, will snag on everything, good for one handed malfunctions.
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  #12811  
Old 03-25-2021, 7:48 AM
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I have two private days scheduled prior to a seven day Grand Canyon rafting trip. The hotel where I'll be staying in LV will store my belongings while I'm on the rafting trip. I don't feel comfortable leaving firearms with them though. Does anyone know of any other options for storage? TIA
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  #12812  
Old 03-25-2021, 7:56 AM
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I have two private days scheduled prior to a seven day Grand Canyon rafting trip. The hotel where I'll be staying in LV will store my belongings while I'm on the rafting trip. I don't feel comfortable leaving firearms with them though. Does anyone know of any other options for storage? TIA

Pistol or rifle? Some banks will allow you a short term safe deposit box rental if your a member of that bank.

There's also - https://the-american-guardian.com/
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  #12813  
Old 03-25-2021, 7:59 AM
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I have two private days scheduled prior to a seven day Grand Canyon rafting trip. The hotel where I'll be staying in LV will store my belongings while I'm on the rafting trip. I don't feel comfortable leaving firearms with them though. Does anyone know of any other options for storage? TIA
https://www.clarkcountynv.gov/govern...plex/index.php

They offer lockers for short or long term. Bring your own lock. Great customer service. Call before going closed some week days.
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  #12814  
Old 03-25-2021, 8:26 AM
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If you're staying at a large casino hotel, they have armories where they'll store firearms.
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  #12815  
Old 03-25-2021, 9:19 AM
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If you're staying at a large casino hotel, they have armories where they'll store firearms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icm2014 View Post
https://www.clarkcountynv.gov/govern...plex/index.php

They offer lockers for short or long term. Bring your own lock. Great customer service. Call before going closed some week days.
Great leads! Thank you both!
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  #12816  
Old 03-25-2021, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbin Dallas View Post
Sorry, I misunderstood your question.


Gunsite - Can't go wrong here. Just don't buy into the 1911 crowd too much.
Uncle Scotty at ITTS
Aegis Academy - Chris is top notch
ACADEMI - If Bill Go is still teaching there, get a class with him.


I'm sure there are many others, but these are ones I highly recommend.
My guess is none of the instructors/schools you mention offer training at Front Sight's price point (free or close to free).

Keep in mind Front Sight's mission, which is to improve the image of 2A and gun owners (paraphrasing). I believe that in many ways, FS has been effective in doing that, more even than the NRA.

I'm a late bloomer--took me many years to DG and my skill level has dropped again. I recognize the need for IDPA etc to round out training with competition and will start locally on that soon.

But no one comes close to FS in terms of drilling the basics. Marines have told me that. No one makes training so affordable.

But even FS can be shut down by the government (despite admirable resistance). Only your family can be depended on to carry on the legacy of training. And word of mouth won't cut it, only a trust (specially drafted for this) can be relied on to transmit the legacy of training.
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  #12817  
Old 03-26-2021, 12:39 PM
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Just got back from another 4-Day Defensive Handgun class.

As I've mentioned before, I am a new shooter, and this trip was my 1-year anniversary getting into firearms and my my first trip to Front Sight was in March 2020. I was there when they shut down because of the Govenor's orders, and my 4DDHG turned into a 2.5DDHG.

Got my second Graduate Certificate this time around. The first one was in a 2-Day Skill Builder back in December. I've taken a difffent handgun each time. This time I took a new Gen 3 Glock 17 I recently purchased. Installed a Vickers extended slide release and a Glock 43 slide stop along with some AmeriGlo Hackathorn sights.

The gun ran flawlessly. It was a dream to run in that class as far as performing malfunction drills, and I finished my Type 3 malfunctions well before anyone else in the class and well before the buzzer every time. I've been practicing, and can fly through them with a Beretta M9A1 without taking chunks out of my hand, so doing them on a Glock was pure heaven!

Only thing I couldn't get used to was the weight (or lack thereof) of the Glock. I received my Graduate Certificate in December in the Skill Builder using a 9mm Springfield 1911. Love the heft of that gun, but was a PITA with the safety on and off, on and off, and that rear target sight tore off a good piece of my pinky when I got a little excited racking the slide.

If I can get used to the lightness of the Glock and shoot it more consistently I'd really love that firearm. Next trip out I may take the Beretta. I've since installed a LTT trigger job in a bag and it's transformed that firearm into something on a different level, but part of me also wants to get better with the Glock.

All my points offering the skills test were on the shooting portion. Did all the malfunctions and reloads clean.

I'm laughing at the arguments back and forth when people trash Front Sight and say it doesn't translate into competitive shooting, it's only beneficial to novices, etc. Who cares? I have zero desire to shoot competitively. I do have a desire to have a solid foundation of the basics, know my firearms inside and out, and be able to safely and effective run them, defend myself god forbid if I ever need to (and pray I never have to) and that means being able to quickly diagnose an issue, like a malfunction and then be able to fix the problem.

We had two police officers in our class. They were from another state and their department paid to have them come out and take the class. These guys were pretty disappointing. One of them didnt even shoot from concealment, and I get that since they probably won't be doing that in their role. But they were slower than molasses when it came to clearing malfunctions, their accuracy was not very good, and dare I say as a guy who works in health care as a nurse, I was smoking those guys on everything (I'm also is superior shape compared to these two who looked like they spent more time at the buffet than at the gym, and they were much younger than me). I care more about the practical and fundamental skills than being able to run around on a course with a tuned up handgun wearing ugly shirts and geeking out on how tricked out my competition pistol is.

I'm sticking with Front Sight, and really appreciate what they offer for the average Joe who just wants to be a solid, responsible gun owner that has a good grasp of the fundamentals. Every time I go there I learn more and more, fine tune and dial in technique, become a better and more responsible firearms owner and have meet amazing people in every class that I have actually kept in contact with. What's not to like?
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  #12818  
Old 03-26-2021, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
Competitive action pistol sports build a solid foundation of the basics, lets you know your firearms inside and out, and lets you be able to safely and effectively run them better than Front Sight. Don't believe me? I can point you in the direction of teenage girls who compete in USPSA/IDPA and could run circles around any FS DG. All for $25 every other saturday within an hour of your house.

A competition isn't a gunfight, but neither is Front Sight, and every gunfight is a competition.
You have your way to train and what you want to get out of it, others have their way. Neither is wrong in my opinion, but it's people like you who seem to think otherwise. it's either your way or no way and you just want to force that down everyone else's throats. This is where I have an issue. You do you and jsut worry about yourself, and let everyone else do what they like.

Also, I bet you don't carry that tricked out pistol or wear your really bright polypropylene shirts around your house all day or conceal carry that gun when you're out. I'd personally rather train with the actual firearms I'd be using in the real world if SHTF. But like I said, there's more than one way to do this, so why do you seem to have so much resistance an animosity toward anyone who has a different approach and different wants/needs from training?

And FWIW, I have no issue or problem with a teenage girl being a better shooter than me. Most people are probably better than me, but as long as I keep getting better, learning and improving I'm fine with that.I touched my first firearm a little over a year ago and have made huge improvements compared to the first day I handled and fired a firearm. Most who train with me or instruct me have a hard time believing I waited 44 years to get into firearms. I was outshooting both of the law enforcement officers that were in my class. But again, that's not what it's about. As long as I'm constantly improving, I'm stoked. And if I can do it at a place I enjoy going to, like the people there and the instructors, and make a few new friends along the way, even better.
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  #12819  
Old 03-26-2021, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
You speak from a position of ignorance because you have no idea what action pistol sports actually are. Since you don't understand it, you're frightened by it and that's why you demean it.

You don't need to train 1:1 to get value from proper training. Any B class competitive shooter could outshoot a FS DG with their own gun. The gun doesn't matter.

Just like any BJJ blue belt would whoop you even though he/she trains on a padded mat while wearing a gi.
B class, C class, D class, blah, blah.

I trained BJJ for a several years actually. You do you buddy and you believe what ever you need to tell yourself. I'm not even going to argue with you because now you're going to claim your a BJJ expert. I see where this is going. Plus, your analogy makes no sense and I'm not sure what you were trying to prove. Wouldn't training with a gi on mats be the equivalent to Front Sight, since, in your opinion it's not really training for real world situations since it's in a controlled environment? Get your analogies straight.

I have zero interest in competitive shooting. Doesn't mean someone else can find value and enjoyment in it, it's just not anything I'm interested in at the moment, but have nothing against anyone else who is. I also don't really care where someone trains or how good they are compared to a particular group of teenage girls you seem to keep referencing. There are probably teenage girls who practice Jiu Jitsu that could also kick my arse. Just that mean I should stop training? Of course not. As long as you're out there training (wherever that is you choose to do so), are a safe and responsible firearms owner and good steward for the Second Amendment, you're good in my book. But you seem to have such a problem with anyone else who doesn't see or do things your way. I actually feel bad for those that have to be around you on a regular basis. You're probably real fun at parties.

And if you have such an issue and disdain for Front Sight, why are you even in this thread?! You really seem liek you have to prove yourself to all of us here? Why? Do you really need to validate what you do to strangers on an Internet forum to validate yourself and your opinions? That's just sad. Almost as sad as me repeatedly facing for the troll bait you're laying down. Won't happen again.
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Old 03-26-2021, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
B class, C class, D class, blah, blah.

I trained BJJ for a several years actually. So, no a blue belt would not whoop me padded mat or not, but again, you do you buddy and you believe what ever you need to tell yourself. I'm not even going to argue with you because now you're going to claim your a BJJ expert. I see where this is going. Plus, your analogy makes no sense and I'm not sure what you were trying to prove. Wouldn't training with a gi on mats be the equivalent to Front Sight, since, in your opinion it's not really training for real world situations since it's in a controlled environment? Get your analogies straight.

I have zero interest in competitive shooting. Doesn't mean someone else can find value and enjoyment in it, it's just not anything I'm interested in but have nothing against anyone else who is. But again, you seem to have such a problem with anyone else who doesn't see or do things the exact way you do. I actually feel bad for those that have to be around you on a regular basis. You're probably real fun at parties.

And if you have such an issue and disdain for Front Sight, why are you even in this thread?! You really seem liek you have to prove yourself to all of us here? Why? Do you really need to validate what you do to strangers on an Internet forum to validate yourself and your opinions? That's just sad. Almost as sad as me repeatedly facing for the troll bait you're laying down. Won't happen again.
I bought my first gun in 2012 at the age of 47. I went to Front Sight in 2014. It was the greatest gun experience I've ever had. I haven't done any competitive shooting yet. I have done some steel shooting though and it is totally addictive!

Would I like to train elsewhere? Sure. Thunder Ranch and Gunsite are on my 'list'. Would I like to compete? Sure! I think the emphasis changes depending on the class etc though. It is the game more than the 'fight'. At least that's my impression. Would I like to go back to Front Sight? SURE!!! I loved it. It was definitely a different experience that being on a square range or other training I've taken.

However, time and cost are all prohibitive factors in all of the above endeavors. I'm not getting any younger, ammo is crazy expensive, components are near impossible to find (I do reload so that helps the cause a little).

I 100% agree. Everyone does what they need to do. The ones forcing down their way as the only way are the ignorant. To me, they're like the Glock guys who detest a 1911.

But, that's just me. I'm doing me. I want to grow up to be Hickok45!
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Old 03-26-2021, 7:17 PM
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Well I thought I'd add my thoughts, which really aren't worth much. I've DG'd handgun and rifle and so far have G'd shotgun and rifle marksmanship. In the year pre-pandemic, I started to participate in matches doing some tactical rifle, tactical shotgun, handgun steel and even a couple of 3-gun matches. My feeling is that frontsight definitely helped me in the matches (although I have tons of room for improvement) and the matches definitely helped me at frontsight (although I have tons of room for improvement). There is overlap, but also quite a bit of difference between the two disciplines. So, now that things are opening up again, I'll be looking for some multi-gun matches to compete in and will be scheduling my next trips to frontsight. I think its best to get as much varied training and experience as I can and use what works best for me.

One thing I will say about frontsight is that it provides a very comfortable and welcoming learning environment for the novice shooter or shooter who has experience but never attended formal training, which I think we all want. At my last 4-day handgun course I was speaking with a woman in the class who told me that prior to the frontsight, she and her husband had never handled a gun. She said they tried to do an adventure type trip every year and picked a handgun class at frontsight that year. She said that while her husband didn't seem to be into it, she really enjoyed the whole frontsight experience and would be coming back, even without him. To me, that sure sounded like another vote in support of 2A!

Anyway, I'm hoping to start up again in matches in the next couple of months (if I can find any primers). Also, now that my son has taken an interest in shooting, one of the first things I did was get him a Diamond membership at frontsight and tentatively plan for a 4-Day handgun course early next year, which will introduce him to the comforts of the Saddle West Casino.
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Old 03-26-2021, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kramynot View Post
... There is overlap, but also quite a bit of difference between the two disciplines.... I think its best to get as much varied training and experience as I can and use what works best for me.
Woot!!! Somebody gets it!!!

No school, instructor, etc. has a monopoly on skills...

As Bruce Lee would say,

Quote:
"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own"
Sticking to one school of thought, no matter how good, simply stunts our own growth... Even the country's top instructors/shooters would encourage learning from others, even from "rival" schools/facilities/instructors...

Oh, yes... I would remember that the Weaver Stance was originally developed to excel in pistol competition. Dang! #historyLesson



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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
I 100% agree. Everyone does what they need to do. The ones forcing down their way as the only way are the ignorant. To me, they're like the Glock guys who detest a 1911.
Whom? Which one? Or both?


Just to add some bit to the fire - man, this recent back-n-forth was a textbook case of when two Type A personalities collide...


Okay - back to our regular programming... I need to get back to FS! It has been more than a year now.



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  #12823  
Old 03-27-2021, 5:27 AM
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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
I bought my first gun in 2012 at the age of 47. I went to Front Sight in 2014. It was the greatest gun experience I've ever had. I haven't done any competitive shooting yet. I have done some steel shooting though and it is totally addictive!

Would I like to train elsewhere? Sure. Thunder Ranch and Gunsite are on my 'list'. Would I like to compete? Sure! I think the emphasis changes depending on the class etc though. It is the game more than the 'fight'. At least that's my impression. Would I like to go back to Front Sight? SURE!!! I loved it. It was definitely a different experience that being on a square range or other training I've taken.

However, time and cost are all prohibitive factors in all of the above endeavors. I'm not getting any younger, ammo is crazy expensive, components are near impossible to find (I do reload so that helps the cause a little).

I 100% agree. Everyone does what they need to do. The ones forcing down their way as the only way are the ignorant. To me, they're like the Glock guys who detest a 1911.

But, that's just me. I'm doing me. I want to grow up to be Hickok45!
Well said. I like both Glocks and 1911's, and have received Gradute certificates at Front Sight using both of those handguns in separate classes!

Probably isn't the smartest thing to do, but in the four times I've been out there for a class I've used three different handguns. My rationale is if I own the handgun, I'd like to sort of put it through it's paces and see how it performs, learn what I like and don't like about it after using it. The four day classes and even two day skill builders are decent to figure this out.

My first class I took a Beretta and hated it. Came home, made some mods and changes to it, took it back and it performed so much better. After that brought a 1911. Most recently took a Glock. Sure, sticking with one firearm probably would have been the smarter way to do it for consistency, but I wanted to challenge myself, and be able to also go from one type of handgun to another and have it be as seamless as possible. Maybe I won't always have access to something as easy to operate as a Glock, and I'll be happy that I've at least had some exposure using a SA or DA/SA. Great example of this is a friend who never held a Beretta. Before I could warn them about the open slide they had already taken a nice chunk out of their hand while racking it.

Now one of my goals is to be able to DG in class with the Beretta just because that firearm is one of the more difficult handguns to run in a class because of the sharp edges, open slide design, etc. But now I can perform Type 3 malfunctions and get off two legit shots to the thoracic cavity with that firearm before most can even finish clearing their malfunction. My first class I couldn't do that without it taking forever, fumbling, dropping a mag when I was trying to retain it, losing some skin, etc. So yes, I will never be a world-class competition shooter, but there is still value in any type of training and there is also more than just being able to shoot fast and accurate, and this is where I see a lot of people struggling in class, including the those that claim to ahve a lot of experience. Most can't even clear a Type 3 malfunction properly and quickly despite having been shooting "since they were a kid". Heck, the two police officers in my last class were two of the slowest in clearing malfunctions. Both of them were eliminated very early in the man on man steel shoot, and one was eliminated int he second round by a young lady who never shot a gun before.

I also agree that if you have the opportunity and means to go to different schools, take classes from different instructors, and expose yourself to different ways and methods of training it's only going to make you a much more informed and well-rounded shooter.

What I really like and commend Front Sight for though is how they do accommodate the new shooter. Many have said this is the detriment of Front Sight, but I disagree. Owning and handling a firearm for the first time can be VERY intimidating for some. Was for me. Combine that with the sometimes standoffish attitude of some firearms enthusiasts, instructors, etc. This is especially true for a lot of women who have never shot before, or who have a significant other who has been shooting for years but really doesn't even know the fundamentals or basics, and even if they do they aren't necessarily a good teacher. This is where Front Sight shines. They make the new shooter feel welcome, take it slow, step by step and you really see than new, scared or intimidated shooter get a little more comfortable and improve over the 4 days. Now they're more comfortable around firearms, they get excited that they're improving and many times they can't wait to come back. Also in many cases you've gained another 2A supporter. What's wrong with that?!

Now, I'm not saying that they're anywhere near being an expert, but I'd rather have more new shooters like that who have at least the very bare minimum of safe gun handling skills, especially with all the new firearms purchased over the last year, than someone who just buys a gun, puts it in a drawer or shelf on a closet and forgets about it. Even the lectures about the legalities of owning and using a firearm in a self defense situation are great for the new shooter to hear. It planted the seeds for me to want to know more after my first trip to FS. I went home, wanted to learn more, joined the CRPA, got more involved in the community, got more into politics, also started attending chapter meetings, etc. I can attribute a lot of this to Front Sight. I have other friends who are first time firearms owners who have never even shot their firearms, don't know how to clean them, both a box of ammo, the handgun, put it somewhere and that was it.

My point is it's not JUST about being a better shooter. If more people get some sort of training, wherever it may be, it's only going to make them more aware and responsible firearms owners, and that's really what we need now. If that turns into wanting to get into competitive shooting, more power to you. Thats only going to broaden your skillset and scope, but for some to say there's only this way of the highway and that way is to become a competitive shooter is absurd.
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Old 03-27-2021, 5:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Sticking to one school of thought, no matter how good, simply stunts our own growth... Even the country's top instructors/shooters would encourage learning from others, even from "rival" schools/facilities/instructors...

Oh, yes... I would remember that the Weaver Stance was originally developed to excel in pistol competition. Dang! #historyLesson

Whom? Which one? Or both? :confused:
I don't believe anything Vinnie has said was ignorant. He was defending his enthusiasm for FS, their training and the value it brings. Others say that only competition is where it's at. Others say that only a Glock will do. Others say that it must be 9mm since you have more capacity. Anything else is garbage. Each one can decide on their own what works for them.

I honestly think that FS holds a lot of value. And as exactly what many of us have experienced and how many have put so eloquently in the past in this thread. I also think that if Vinnie did attend a few competitions, he may get bit by the bug and enjoy it. Will it bring talent to his skills? Sure it will. Will it make him more rounded as a shooter? Sure it will. Will it make him hate FS with a passion as some who post in this thread do? Doubtful. I truly believe he will continue to value what FS is, what it excels at and even get to the point of DG-ing and moving on to the Advanced classes.

It's been too long for us since we've been back. Life gets in the way. I'd love to DG the 4DDHG, but I need to really up my skills to get there.

Happy shooting and be safe all.
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Old 03-27-2021, 6:45 AM
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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
I don't believe anything Vinnie has said was ignorant. He was defending his enthusiasm for FS, their training and the value it brings. Others say that only competition is where it's at. Others say that only a Glock will do. Others say that it must be 9mm since you have more capacity. Anything else is garbage. Each one can decide on their own what works for them.

I honestly think that FS holds a lot of value. And as exactly what many of us have experienced and how many have put so eloquently in the past in this thread. I also think that if Vinnie did attend a few competitions, he may get bit by the bug and enjoy it. Will it bring talent to his skills? Sure it will. Will it make him more rounded as a shooter? Sure it will. Will it make him hate FS with a passion as some who post in this thread do? Doubtful. I truly believe he will continue to value what FS is, what it excels at and even get to the point of DG-ing and moving on to the Advanced classes.

It's been too long for us since we've been back. Life gets in the way. I'd love to DG the 4DDHG, but I need to really up my skills to get there.

Happy shooting and be safe all.
Agree with everything you said.

I want everyone to understand I have nothing against competition shooting. Nothing at all. I do have issue with someone who jsut trashes every other type of training though and talks down to others who think their way is the only way. At this point I get enjoyment out of trying different guns for each class, learning them, figuring out what I prefer and like and what I don't like, learning about the history of each of them, etc. It's just all fun for me while also learning a skillset that may save my life one day. Same reason I used to train jiu jitsu and same reasons I go to the gym. I had no plans to become a world champion, and jsut want to equip myself with the basics and be physically fit to do the things I liek to do, and be able to defend myself if I ever had to.

As long as we're all training and remain safe and improve and reach whatever goals we set for ourselves it's all good.

And between full time grad school, working to pay the bills and pay for full time grade school and graduate without any debt, and have other hobbies, I just have the time, money or desire right now to take on yet another hobby.
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Old 03-27-2021, 7:51 AM
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Speaking of different training/focus...

I saw a Jerry Miculek video last week where he makes a comment about how competition and defensive shooting are different in that; in a defensive situation you are always watching what the other person(s) are doing because you are ONLY shooting to stop the attack. If they break off, run at the sight of your gun, etc. you will not be pulling the trigger. In a competition, you KNOW you are going to shoot the gun so you can focus more on your sights, getting the gun on target and the shot off quickly.

Any thoughts (agree/disagree) and how this might influence the training being provided?
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Old 03-27-2021, 11:12 AM
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The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.

Vinnie, based on your current goals, I do think there are some learnings to take from some of the better competitive shooters. Watch some reloads. Or watch some drills like 4 aces. It will open your eyes. I know it did mine. Here is Ben shooting 4 Aces. And Vinnie, just for you, this is back when he was shooting a Beretta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7KlhYj4UUo

Last edited by NorthBay Shooter; 03-27-2021 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 03-27-2021, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 1911-CV View Post
Speaking of different training/focus...

I saw a Jerry Miculek video last week where he makes a comment about how competition and defensive shooting are different in that; in a defensive situation you are always watching what the other person(s) are doing because you are ONLY shooting to stop the attack. If they break off, run at the sight of your gun, etc. you will not be pulling the trigger. In a competition, you KNOW you are going to shoot the gun so you can focus more on your sights, getting the gun on target and the shot off quickly.

Any thoughts (agree/disagree) and how this might influence the training being provided?
I'm not going to argue and disagree with Jerry Miculek. Makes sense.

Kind of similar to the story they tell at FS when learning to clear a Type 1 malfunction with tap/rack. Many places teach the tap, rack, fire. An officer followed a suspect into a hallway where a gunfight ensued. Officer experienced a Type 1 malfunction. cleared it with a tap, rack then fired. Within that time an innocent bystander stepped into the hall and was subsequently shot by the officer because it was engrained in his bran to immediately shoot once he cleared the malfunction. This is why they teach you to tap, rack then decided if you need to shoot or not, and not automatically let off a shot once you fix the problem or clear the malfunction.
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Old 03-27-2021, 2:46 PM
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The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.

Vinnie, based on your current goals, I do think there are some learnings to take from some of the better competitive shooters. Watch some reloads. Or watch some drills like 4 aces. It will open your eyes. I know it did mine. Here is Ben shooting 4 Aces. And Vinnie, just for you, this is back when he was shooting a Beretta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7KlhYj4UUo
I've watched tons of videos of competitive shooters. I've probably watched most of JM's videos as well on YouTube. I'll say it again, I have absolutely nothing against competitive shooters. I'm a novice here and on the grand scale really know nothing at this point. I'm just starting out a year into it. I'll say it once more...I have nothing against competitive shooting. But with my current situation with work and school Front Sight just works for me tight now, especially with a Commander membership. Once I have more time and my situation changes who knows, but for now this works and I really like it. I know it's not the be all end all for training. What I do have issue with (and I'll say it again because it seems like it's not really sinking in for some) is when one person comes along and starts saying their way is the best and only way, then proceeds to insult others who have a different opinion. That's really my only issue here. Whenever someone takes that stance on anything it raises a red flag and I'll immediately be suspicious of that person and will usually steer clear of anything else they say after that.
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Old 03-28-2021, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz View Post
I've watched tons of videos of competitive shooters. I've probably watched most of JM's videos as well on YouTube. I'll say it again, I have absolutely nothing against competitive shooters. I'm a novice here and on the grand scale really know nothing at this point. I'm just starting out a year into it. I'll say it once more...I have nothing against competitive shooting. But with my current situation with work and school Front Sight just works for me tight now, especially with a Commander membership. Once I have more time and my situation changes who knows, but for now this works and I really like it. I know it's not the be all end all for training. What I do have issue with (and I'll say it again because it seems like it's not really sinking in for some) is when one person comes along and starts saying their way is the best and only way, then proceeds to insult others who have a different opinion. That's really my only issue here. Whenever someone takes that stance on anything it raises a red flag and I'll immediately be suspicious of that person and will usually steer clear of anything else they say after that.
We are in agreement. There is no one best way for everyone. FS is very cool, and I have learned tons from the instructors and the other students every time I have been there.

If I recall correctly, you are in the East Bay, correct? If so, and you have a free Sat or Sun sometime and want to come to Richmond, PM me. There is always something going on each weekend. USPSA 2 times a month, IDPA every other month (I think), Steel Challenge, Cowboy, Rimfire. Or just go come out for a Saturday practice. It is one of the only places you can bring your gear and shoot from the holster, with controlled pairs.

However, be forewarned, if you get hooked, you are going to need lots of ammo..
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Old 03-28-2021, 9:32 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter View Post
The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.


Good shooters are still good shooters regardless of the gun.



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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
I'd love to DG the 4DDHG, but I need to really up my skills to get there.
I am planning if time (and ammo permits!) to put a twist the next time I try the 4DDHG test - either use a sub-compact (Glock 26 or the M&P Shield)... Or shoot left-handed... @Beanz even suggested to try it with a revolver...




Okay - back after a 2-day hiatus from CG due to some lcoal #pewPew. My first experience to rent out a private bay to try out some random drills!?! Drove out 60-mi one-way to Route 66... Dang! If I have access to these ranges, my evolution as a shooter might have been more progressive. If I win either the Mega Millions or the Power Ball lotteries, a private range is in the ToDos!

And yesterday was a local class on the rifle as applied in urban scenarios. Instructor is a military veteran (UMSC, Recon, Range, etc.) and a counter-terrorist/executive protection SME. Good class!

That said - my final take on the recent back-and-forths...

Disclaimer - I have a stake with both sides, as some in this forums do. Again, I am a student of Front Sight and recognize the value it brings to a shooter's evolution. But I am also a competitive shooter that understands its "nuances," that obviously leads to misconceptions to those outside the sport (which, I, too, was guilty off when I started).


Yes, it was ignorant for an individual to force their way of training/learning on another. But it was also ignorant for the opposing side to argue against something that the person clearly doesn't understand. I would have preferred to either quiet down/relax and ignore the other person rather than a going back-n-forth. See how my thread with @Corbin Dallas went? It was all cordial and amicable... We ended up with a "try it first before making any judgements?" We are all gentlemen here. No?

Like I said "when Type A (strong) personalities collide."

Oh, yes - we are in the internet. There are no winners here...



Oh well - again - back to the regular programming... Need to get back to Front Sight! Any President member here are aware of how long the waiting list for privates are? I still have to schedule my first private class. Just upgraded my membership heading into the pandemic.


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Old 03-28-2021, 8:20 PM
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FS or other training can be great for a shooter. Training and shooting matches can be great too. Here's the difference I see a lot. A shooter goes to FS or elswhere and gets good training until his next class. What percentage of these shooters go home and have access to really practice what they have learned? Many are stuck with a lane at an indoor range. Of course some do have a place to practice and that's great, but how many?

Shooters that do some training and compete can also practice on their own, often on their clubs bays. Plus they can shoot matches 1,2,3 or more times a month with unique layouts, walls, barricades, ports with a few moving targets thrown in. Full targets, partial, no shoot hostage type targets etc. Targets scored, penalties earned, timed. That's a lot of range time compared to a lot of shooters I know who only do training classes because of lack of access to get more shooting in.
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Old 03-29-2021, 7:45 AM
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FS or other training can be great for a shooter. Training and shooting matches can be great too. Here's the difference I see a lot. A shooter goes to FS or elswhere and gets good training until his next class. What percentage of these shooters go home and have access to really practice what they have learned? Many are stuck with a lane at an indoor range. Of course some do have a place to practice and that's great, but how many?

Shooters that do some training and compete can also practice on their own, often on their clubs bays. Plus they can shoot matches 1,2,3 or more times a month with unique layouts, walls, barricades, ports with a few moving targets thrown in. Full targets, partial, no shoot hostage type targets etc. Targets scored, penalties earned, timed. That's a lot of range time compared to a lot of shooters I know who only do training classes because of lack of access to get more shooting in.
I don't even bother going to the range anymore. Can't draw from a holster there, so I just do a lot of dry practice at home. Not saying it's ideal, but there are plenty of things that you can do during dry practice that are arguably as much, and possibly even more beneficial than just shooting at a target. Drawing from the holster, presenting the firearm to the target, really dialing in your sight sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control, practicing clearing different types of malfunctions, practicing different types of reloads, etc. have benefitted me tremendously, and that's been proven each time I go back to Front Sight because I have improved tremendously each time.

I've seen a lot of people who claim to have been shooting guns all their lives yet don't even know the differences between the different types of malfunctions. Throw them a Type 3 and they're all thumbs. Some of these students might even score perfect or near perfect on the shooting portion of the test them completely blow it during the malfunction drills. There were several examples of this in my last class, including two police officers (but those two actually didn't shoot that well and blew the malfunctions).

I guess we can all agree to disagree, but there's more to shooting than just shooting. I will agree though, getting out to a range or course with a good coach that allows you to actually practice these skills with live ammo is massively beneficial. But there's also a lot to refining skills like your draw from the holster, presentation, etc. that one can benefit from dry practice at home without ammo. Just because you're at a range with live ammo doesn't guarantee improvement if you're just doing the same bad habits over and over because all you're doing in engraining and reinforcing bad habits. Also, with the cost of ammo these days getting to the range often enough just isn't possible for many. Although I have quite a bit of ammo, I stopped going to the range. Of course I agree it's much more fun to shoot live ammo but I tend to get more out of, and improve much more concentrating on and fine-tuning other things like presentation, clearing malfunctions for time with a timer, etc, and these are all things I can easily do at home with some dummy rounds and a timer. On the flip side I have friends who just want to go out on BLM land and shoot at stuff, but have zero formal training, don't want formal training, and have no interest in going to a class.

I also think we may be talking about two different things here. Looks like some of us may be comparing the new shooter to the experienced, seasoned shooter. If you're an experienced and seasoned competitive shooter you probably won't be impressed at a 4DDHG class at Front Sight. Sure, you might pick up and learn something you didn't know, or learn a new way to do something that may work better for you and incorporate into your skillset, but overall I can see how this type of shooter wouldn't be impressed. If you're a rank novice, a 4DDHG class is massively beneficial and in my opinion does a fantastic job of teaching and reinforcing the basic fundamentals and drills them over and over during the course of 4 days to where they start becoming automatic for many and promotes safe gun handling. I really feel like this is essential for ANY and EVERY new firearms owner. Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.
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Old 03-29-2021, 7:57 AM
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I remember earlier in this thread a member was upset that his CZ didn't pass weapons inspection, and showed a picture of an NRA trigger weight he had at his home. When I was there last week they actually did have the same NRA trigger weights on the table and that's what they appeared to be using to test triggers during weapons inspection.

Also, I really didn't have any issue with the reduced round count. The first 2 days tend to be a little slow, but this was the case even before the reduced round count. But days 3 and 4 seemed very similar and didn't notice any compromise in the the quality of the class. Also didn't hear any return students complaining about the reduced round count. I shot/used 448 rounds. Had 2 left over after the class.
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Old 03-29-2021, 11:02 AM
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I remember earlier in this thread a member was upset that his CZ didn't pass weapons inspection, and showed a picture of an NRA trigger weight he had at his home. When I was there last week they actually did have the same NRA trigger weights on the table and that's what they appeared to be using to test triggers during weapons inspection.
That was me. Did they test handguns with it too, or only rifles?

I wonder if a student insists on having his handgun tested with the NRA weight if the answer would again be, “We don’t work that way.”

I paid good money to Cajun Gun Works to have the trigger weight raised to over 4 lbs just to have someone make a blanket statement that “Shadow 2s are too light” or “CGW work makes them even more dangerous”.


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Originally Posted by Vinnie Boombatz
Also, I really didn't have any issue with the reduced round count. The first 2 days tend to be a little slow, but this was the case even before the reduced round count. But days 3 and 4 seemed very similar and didn't notice any compromise in the the quality of the class. Also didn't hear any return students complaining about the reduced round count. I shot/used 448 rounds. Had 2 left over after the class.
Been wondering about that. We’re contemplating of cancelling our May Skill Builder classes if it’s sitting around all day listening to lectures.
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Old 03-29-2021, 1:25 PM
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That was me. Did they test handguns with it too, or only rifles?

I wonder if a student insists on having his handgun tested with the NRA weight if the answer would again be, “We don’t work that way.”

I paid good money to Cajun Gun Works to have the trigger weight raised to over 4 lbs just to have someone make a blanket statement that “Shadow 2s are too light” or “CGW work makes them even more dangerous”.




Been wondering about that. We’re contemplating of cancelling our May Skill Builder classes if it’s sitting around all day listening to lectures.
I'm not sure if it wS just being used for rifles or not. I had a stock Glock 17 so they never tested the trigger pull weight with the device. I just remember seeing it on the table and remembered your previous post in this thread. I do wonder what will happen though next time when I bring my Beretta M9A1 with an LTT trigger job in a bag and a 14lb hammer spring. I don't have a gauge, but it feels pretty darn light.

I'll agree, it is lame is they simply wont allow a certain firearm because of an opinion they hold about it without testing it. But if they test it and it fails, guess there's not much you can do.
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Old 03-29-2021, 1:58 PM
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A lot can be practiced with dry fire for either training or match shooting. This was true before the recent ammo and component shortages, even more important currently. Matches do have a lot of gun handling, loading, with a lot of movement around a stage compared to a lot of training classes.

As far as malfunctions every shooter should know how to be able to clear them without taking a lot of time. The best I've n at clearing malfunctions are shooters that have to do it constantly. Even if your gun is extremely reliable you need to know how but how much emphasis on it do you need? I prioritize having guns, ammo and mags that run while be ready when it rarely happens.
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Old 03-29-2021, 4:27 PM
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I'll agree, it is lame is they simply wont allow a certain firearm because of an opinion they hold about it without testing it. But if they test it and it fails, guess there's not much you can do.
For sure. But if the armorer refuses to test it with their weight, I will have my own
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Old 03-29-2021, 5:05 PM
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But like you said, many skills are not practiced and you are spot on about when the firearm jams or fails and how shooters will choke when this happens.
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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
As far as malfunctions every shooter should know how to be able to clear them without taking a lot of time. The best I've n at clearing malfunctions are shooters that have to do it constantly. Even if your gun is extremely reliable you need to know how but how much emphasis on it do you need? I prioritize having guns, ammo and mags that run while be ready when it rarely happens.
First stage on this cold day - my last match for the 2020 season... And why only on this stage?? Malfunction after malfunction! Going into the array in this video, I actually had two other other failures to fire that I already discarded one mag!




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Old 03-29-2021, 5:40 PM
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For sure. But if the armorer refuses to test it with their weight, I will have my own
Ah, so I thought he did test it and said nope. That's much different if he even refused to test the trigger and just told you to kick rocks. That's not cool.
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