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  #81  
Old 08-17-2020, 8:52 PM
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Crap happens if you shoot long enough, last week I started having some failures in one of my AR’s. Broke it down and immediately saw the problem, the gas key was loose. In 30 years of shooting AR’s this is the first time I’ve ever had a lose gas key, it was staked also although not that great of a staking obviously. I had a KB with a 9mm AR type rifle before, crap happens.
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  #82  
Old 08-25-2020, 10:58 AM
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I got a call from RRA and they have given the upper the once over and test fired the upper. Says it shoots hole for hole still.

The only thing they did was to replace the extractor. $8 + $60 labor and about $50 in shipping both ways.

I didn’t like being without it, the EOTech on my 12” CAR is out fro repair at the same time also I’m down to just a few ARs for a bit but I think the $120 spent was a good investment and would do it again.


EDIT:

Forgot to mention, just to prove that RRA knows what they are talking about they did say that Randal was right and the round was fully in battery with no bore obstruction and it was just overcharged.
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  #83  
Old 08-25-2020, 11:42 AM
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Send the bill to Federal.
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  #84  
Old 09-16-2020, 7:43 AM
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Send the bill to Federal.

Just got it back from RRA yesterday. Shipping included I was out $125 ish.

I guess I could send them a bill and what? Submit this thread as evidence?


I guess it’s worth a try but I’m just glad to have not sustained any serious injuries.
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  #85  
Old 09-16-2020, 9:55 AM
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I could be wrong about what happened, this it just my best guess.











That should buff right out.
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  #86  
Old 09-16-2020, 10:12 AM
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Glad you are ok!

There are ways to look for cracks with penetrating dye or magnetic particles.
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  #87  
Old 09-16-2020, 11:10 AM
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That should buff right out.

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  #88  
Old 09-16-2020, 2:03 PM
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Loved that movie.
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  #89  
Old 09-16-2020, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
I think you can see in the picture it says Winchester on the cartridge that I ended up crying out of the chamber after the kaboom. My working theory is that it didn't extract after firing and the next round was somehow set off on its way in period
I would like your permission to use your pictures.

It is going to take a awhile for me to offer a theory, so prepared to be bored.

I do believe you did have an out of battery slamfire.

The most common cause of a slamfire is a sensitive primer and a free floating firing pin. The most slamfiring mechanism on the American market is the Garand mechanism. This mechanism is used in the M1 Garand (duh), the M14, the M1a and its variants, the M1 carbine, and the Mini 14. This mechanism will slamfire in battery and out of battery because the firing pin is not captive, (like a Colt series 80 M1911). You can see in this mechanism, the firing pin’s forward movement is blocked by a firing pin block. Until the trigger moves the block out of the way, the firing pin is positively blocked from touching the primer, even if hit by the hammer.




This is an M1 Carbine mechanism, easy to understand what is going on when the bolt goes forward.

And, you can see with this mechanism, it is very possible to have an out of battery slamfire, because nothing is blocking the firing pin until it hits the firing pin retraction cam.








The cam is quite ineffective as a firing pin block and John Garand did not patent it as a firing pin block, so I am certain it is only a firing pin retraction cam. Something it is called in the M1 Carbine TM. It is not positive in operation and the most of the bolt lugs are still out of engagement when the firing pin clears the cam and has unrestrained movement.




I have talked to many shooters, some National Champions, who either had, or seen, in battery and out of battery slamfires in M1a’s/M14’s. The web is full of out of battery slamfire accounts, with shooters trying to make sense of what happened and creating “it must have happened this way” narratives. Such as what five,five-six has done.

It does not help that the US Army and NRA deliberately created a false narrative that pushed fault of in battery and out of battery slamfires on to shooters. They claimed the Garand design is prefect and prevents incidental contact between the firing pin and primer. Their story was that only high primers and a worn out safety bridge” (BS prejudicial term for the firing pin retraction cam) cause slamfires. Well, it turns out, high primers are the most common cause of misfires. If the primer anvil is not firmly seated on something, and the primer cup pushed down to compress the primer cake between anvil and cup, the primer will misfire. Nothing in an Army or NRA publication mentions sensitive primers. Which shows what a bunch of liars are in the Army and the NRA, as the Army had gone through a slamfire period with the M16. Tthe NRA authors reassuring the American Rifleman readership that nothing was inherently wrong with the Garand, had worked as Army employees addressing the M16 slamfire issue. But when it came to informing the US public, the only thing you will read in their literature, is that a primer, is a primer, is a primer. The reader is left with the impression that primers are predictable, totally consistent, and nothing unexpected can happen, like cartridge ignition when a rebounding, fully free floating, firing pin leaves a dent on your Garand primer.

This is out of my Garand with a Roland Beaver modified bolt.






This used to be on the website The Gun Zone as a part of the series

A 5.56 X 45mm "Timeline" 1963-1964

USAF and USMC testing of the AR-15 indicate a "slam-fire" problem. The issue is originally blamed on high primers, but this is quickly dismissed as the cause.

At Frankford Arsenal, William C. Davis issues "First Memo Report on AR-15 Rifle Ammunition Systems: Investigation of Firing Pin Energy and Primer Sensitivity." The kinetic energy of the existing AR-15 firing pin is found to range from 4 to 14 inch-ounces when the bolt closes. While Frankford does not currently have equipment to determine the sensitivity limits of .223 primers, they have been told by Remington that it should be comparable to military .30 Carbine primers. Primers for military .30 Carbine cartridges have "None Fire/All Fire" tolerances of 6 to 36 inch-ounces. Davis recommends that the None Fire limit for .223 ammunition should exceed 15 inch-ounces.

Frankford personnel submit study to TCC regarding primer sensitivity level versus risk of slam-fires:

None Fire - All Fire limits Risk of Slam-Fire
16-64 in-oz 1 In 10 million
12-60 in-oz (Current sensitivity limit for 7.62mm NATO) 1 in 160
12-48 in-oz 1 in 6,400
14-56 in-oz 1 in 11,000


It turns out that primer cake sensitivity varies considerably within the lot. Primer cake is a mixture, the percentages vary, the purity of the stuff varies. The stuff is mixed by hand, the composition will never be perfectly homogeneous. Even in perfectly mixed and made primer cake composition, ignition energies varies considerably within the lot.

I have not copied the table from George’s Frost book, Making Ammunition, but Mr Frost shows that primers are tested by dropping weights, two ounce, or four once weights. There are limits to the weight heights, which should correspond to the energy levels of the firing mechanism, with margin incidental firing pin impact. The upper level is an all fire level, all primers should fire at that weight height, but the once of interest to us, is the lower, “none fire” level. That is the low energy level that no primers should ignite.


I found this an interesting chart, it shows there are probabilities of ignition, between the upper all fire limit, and the lower, none fire limit. The same energy strike below none fire and all fire, may or may not ignite the primer cake. And, something else, there are primers that are ultra sensitive and go off with very little external energy input.



Turns out, designers often don’t know the ignition limits of primers. Stoner did not know. The original AR15 came out with a heavy firing pin, and the propensity of the firearm to slamfire when single loaded, was not noticed through early testing, and only when issued in quantity.

The AR15 should be safer than a M1 Garand mechanism as, as Randall has stated, the firing pin does not extend from the bolt face until the bolt rotates into battery. Therefore what you find is, while out of battery and in battery slamfires are common in all M1 Garand mechanisms, out of battery slamfires are very rare in the Stoner AR15 mechanism. In battery slamfires are easy to find, but the out of battery are so rare as to be unbelievable due to the nature of the design. But they happen. And they happen in a way you would not expect.

This is a picture posted on another forum by a Military contractor of an out of battery 5.56 in a military M16 or M4. Looks similar to yours.




I am of the opinion the most probable cause of your KB is bolt/carrier bounce and a sensitive primer. The round is fed from the magazine (or single loaded in the chamber) the bolt/carrier closes, which allows the free floating firing pin to protrude out of the bolt face. The firing pin then hits the primer, and bolt carrier bounce rotate the lugs out of engagement. If the primer is sensitive enough, and the ignition timing unfortunate, a sensitive primer can ignite just when the lugs are out of battery.

This sequence of events would explain many things about your KB. And rest assured, nothing is your fault. You cannot visually examine a primer and determine its ignition sensitivity. You cannot tell which one is within spec, and which one will be a dud, nor which on is ultra sensitive.

The only thing preventing a weapon with a free floating firing pin from slamfiring is primer insensitivity. And this is probabilistic, and totally out of your control. The only control you have, is using primers that are "less sensitive" on average in semi automatic weapons. And even then, primers which are on the average less sensitive, somewhere in the batch is an ultra sensitive primer. This bothers many shooters who want perfect control and perfect certainty. I think we all crave total control of our environment and total control of certainty, and we never get there, do we? I used to get a lot of hate about this from slamfire deniers. Controlling individuals can be real hateful Aholes when their perfect and orderly view of the universe is challenged.

Winchester unfortunately made their brass finish primers more sensitive just at the turn of the century. I called them, and found they had made their primers more sensitive “to combat off center firing pin impacts”. Laudable for bolt guns and revolvers, but very bad for semi auto rifle mechanisms with free floating firing pins. The brass finish WSR also pierced at loads that never bothered the old nickel plated WSR.

For AR15 mechanisms, I recommend CCI #41 mil spec primers. CCI told me that these mil spec primers are their military product line, they are made to the less sensitive military primer specifications that the US Army determined was the best match for the AR15. But, as has been shown in this thread, even the #41 primer, in a military weapon, have caused out of battery slamfires!

Use the #41 in AR15’s, Mini 14’s, and M1 carbines



And use the #34’s in battle rifles. All of them.


I recommend never using WSR or Federal small rifle primers in AR15 mechanisms. There are too many slamfire reports with the things in semi automatic rifles. Federal match primers are the most slamfiring ever primer in the M1 Garand mechanism. Don’t blow this off. Last month at a Bullseye Pistol match, I talked to a Vietnam Veteran, USMC. The USMC used the M14. This veteran told me of two M14 “blow ups” he personally witnessed. He was a kid and he knew nothing about primer sensitivity, but he did state the stocks were shattered on the Government M14’s his fellow Marines were firing. And, and this is the kicker, the bolts blew out of both rifles. One Marine was severely hurt by all the shards, and when hit in the eye by the bolt! The other, he lost his eye when the blown bolt took out his eye. The most likely cause of a flying bolt is an out of battery slamfire in this mechanism.

I would like to use your pictures, please say yes

Last edited by slamfire1; 09-16-2020 at 7:07 PM..
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  #90  
Old 09-16-2020, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire1 View Post
I am of the opinion the most probable cause of your KB is bolt/carrier bounce and a sensitive primer.
The round is fed from the magazine (or single loaded in the chamber) the bolt/carrier closes, which allows the free floating firing pin to protrude out of the bolt face.
The firing pin then hits the primer, and bolt carrier bounce rotate the lugs out of engagement.
If you look at the AR-15 action in high speed, (several high speed videos concerning bolt bounce are available) you will see that the bolt bounce is FAR short of even the BEGINNING of bolt rotation, let alone enough bolt rotation to actually unlock the lugs.



Bolt bounce is usually under 1/8" to 3/16" while it takes over 3/16" of carrier travel to even BEGIN unlocking the bolt and around 5/8" total carrier travel before the bolt lugs would be unlocked and the cam pin cleared of the reciever enough for the bolt head to move rearward.
Even in this most extreme scenario with all the weights removed from the buffer, look at the carrier bounce that gets to perhaps 5/16" which is about HALF of the bounce that would be required to unlock the bolt from the extension:



Let's add one more fact into the equation:
The OP's gun is a rifle gassed 20" barrel which has a slower cycling carrier and therefore much less bounce than a midlength or carbine gas system.

I find your opinion not to be probable in the OP's closed breech high pressure event.
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  #91  
Old 09-17-2020, 3:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
If you look at the AR-15 action in high speed, (several high speed videos concerning bolt bounce are available) you will see that the bolt bounce is FAR short of even the BEGINNING of bolt rotation, let alone enough bolt rotation to actually unlock the lugs.

I find your opinion not to be probable in the OP's closed breech high pressure event.
These OOB's are very rare, but the posted picture, from an Army report, of Army ammunition, in an Army weapon, is not the only one I have heard about, and the explanation fits the outcome. As you probably know, the Army had to spend time and effort finding a buffer design that would keep the bolt closed, in the early stages of the AR15/M16 program. That tells me, even with the "perfected" design, that the bolt and carrier going into battery and staying in battery is not 100%.

The videos you posted are interesting, but they do not encapsulate the totality of human experience.

As another data point, I was pulling a target with a bud who is a Guard at a Nuclear National Laboratory. This facility has nuclear materials, etc, and it also has kill zones. There are areas in which the Guards are instructed to shoot to kill, regardless of who is in there. Several Guards were fired when they did not shoot anti nuclear protestors who were working their way on to the facility. Incidentally, the anti nuc protestors had planned ahead and filled out wills. Anyway, these Guards train extensively with Government M4's and Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition. Anyway Bud said, one of the M4's on the training ground had an OOB with FGMM. So, here is another rare OOB in a Government weapon, with factory ammunition.

AR15 OOB's are very rare in comparison to all others, but I am going to say, they happen and are real. And the OP did say, and did show, a firing pin strike on the primer.

However, I am not discounting an overpressure event. If this were reloaded ammunition, than an over charge would be the first and highest probability event. But, this is factory ammunition. For me, this does fall into my "known unknowns", in that I don't know the process control technology used in the production of modern ammunition. Technology has moved so quickly that they are doing things that are not only beyond my understanding, but beyond my conception. But, conceptually, given a $100 million or more factory, I could believe that the technology is allowing ammunition manufacturers to weigh each primer, weigh each case, weigh each charge, and then weigh each primed and charged case, and reject those that the automation identifies as an over charge. I don’t know this, and I would like to know how they actually do it now. I do have Philip B Sharpe book, “Complete Guide to Handloading” and the 1940’s technology he describes, is so 1940. If the technology supports it, I just don’t see how an over charged case can come off the production line.

So then, the idea you proposed of an obstruction in the barrel. Would there not also be a bulge within the tube?

Last edited by slamfire1; 09-17-2020 at 12:04 PM..
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  #92  
Old 09-17-2020, 6:19 AM
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That's sure a lot of flow. I'd be curious what the hardness of the case web (what's left of it, anyway) actually is. If it ends up being a lot softer than it's supposed to be, that could explain some things.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by slamfire1 View Post
AR15 OOB's are very rare in comparison to all others, but I am going to say, they happen and are real.
And the OP did say, and did show, a firing pin strike on the primer.
Which can only happen when the case head is against the boltface.
That can only happen when the case shoulder is against the chamber because of the spring loaded ejector denying the firing pin access to the primer when the bolt is out of battery.

So the only way that an AR type gun can OOB via the firing pin is if the ejector gets collapsed/stuck in the boltface AND something is stopping the cartridge from fitting into the chamber AND the firing pin inertia sets off the primer.
That's a pretty difficult chain of events to assemble and is why the AR rotary breech type guns don't suffer from OOB's.

Any other OOB is not going to be from the firing pin.
So now you are looking at bullet tips as the cause and an OOB from a bullet tip hitting the primer of a chambered case means you had some user intervention because it's not possible to get 2 live rounds out of the magazine in normal operation.

Now looking at the OP's high pressure event, you don't get ejector and extractor flow EXCEPT when the cartridge is in battery.
True OOB events have the thinner web of the case yielding at a much lower pressure and therefore the case head's don't flow into the ejector or extractor spaces.



This reason alone debunks the OP's high pressure event being an OOB.
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Old 09-17-2020, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
Had my first KB, it was on an AR15A2 RRA NM H-BAR. It FTE and the next round in slamfired out of battery, blew the bottom plate off the mag along with all the mag guts, ammo and firey burny stuff and the ruptured out of battery casing pieces. None of it actually hit my face. I think I want to replace the BCG, extractor is bent and probably caused the problem. I think I should have a gunsmith look at the barrel adapter.
HAHAHA Sorry for laughing, but I don't get it. Why did you post this if you are going to reject almost every suggestion, continuing to use many of the same parts AND ammunition?

Happy to hear that you weren't hurt, but I wouldn't reuse parts. And I'm not sure what I'd do with the ammo.

I'd use this experience to justify buying a new upper. And I'd probably sell the ammo.

At a minimum you need a new bolt and barrel with proper headspace. I wouldn't just replace the barrel extension, but that's me. I would probably replace the upper receiver too, there could be invisible damage.

You do you. But be careful.

Last edited by ScottsBad; 09-17-2020 at 1:28 PM..
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Old 09-17-2020, 1:27 PM
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HAHAHA Sorry for laughing, but I don't get it. Why did you post this if you are going to reject almost every suggestion, continuing to use many of the same parts AND ammunition?

Happy to hear that you weren't hurt, but I wouldn't reuse parts. And I'm not sure what I'd do with the ammo.

I'd use this experience to justify buying a new upper. And I'd probably sell the ammo.
LOL....

except for the part about selling ammo I don't trust. I can't imagine being that hard up for money. I just scrapped it all.
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Old 09-17-2020, 1:34 PM
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LOL....

except for the part about selling ammo I don't trust. I can't imagine being that hard up for money. I just scrapped it all.
Good. Stay safe.
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Old 09-17-2020, 1:42 PM
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Good. Stay safe.
you'd sell defective ammo? seriously?

wow is all I can say
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Old 09-17-2020, 4:28 PM
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slamfire1 said;

Quote:
However, I am not discounting an overpressure event. If this were reloaded ammunition, than an over charge would be the first and highest probability event. But, this is factory ammunition.
The bolded is not an accurate depiction of events "AS KNOWN".

OP originally stated in post #3....."Nope, all factory ammo at that time. I have a bunch of it that I’m trying to run through".

And was incorrect as to maker of the ammo in post #22. "I think you can see in the picture it says Winchester on the cartridge that I ended up crying out of the chamber after the kaboom."


Headstamp on Kaboom case was FC not Win or WCC.

OP admitted in post #66; " I’m going to replace the entire BCG and pull down all the 223 I have because I’m not 100% sure it wan’t one of my reloads."

In this thread. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1648573

OP said this in his opening post.
Quote:
I use my rockchucker for a lot of tasks like load developing, trying to make precision rifle rounds, decaping for wet tumble but mostly I use the collit puller to take apart large numbers of mistakes.

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Old 09-17-2020, 6:28 PM
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slamfire1 said;



The bolded is not an accurate depiction of events "AS KNOWN".

OP originally stated in post #3....."Nope, all factory ammo at that time. I have a bunch of it that I’m trying to run through".

And was incorrect as to maker of the ammo in post #22. "I think you can see in the picture it says Winchester on the cartridge that I ended up crying out of the chamber after the kaboom."


Headstamp on Kaboom case was FC not Win or WCC.

OP admitted in post #66; " I’m going to replace the entire BCG and pull down all the 223 I have because I’m not 100% sure it wan’t one of my reloads."

In this thread. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1648573

OP said this in his opening post.



You know, when the story keeps changing, it gets real hard to know what is true or not.

And from what I have read, this is a real problem for "eye witness" accounts. Humans think in narratives, and the brain will make up memories, and shuffle them in with the real events, then reorder as necessary, to make a consistent story. And, you will believe what you "remember", even though half of it is false, and the timeline is all wrong.

If it is a reload, then what Randall claims as a failure mechanism is the most probable cause.

I don't trust other people's reloads. Seen too many of them cause malfunctions during highpower matches. And then, everyone should own a bullet puller. I have worn several out!
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Old 09-17-2020, 7:25 PM
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slamfire1 said;



The bolded is not an accurate depiction of events "AS KNOWN".

OP originally stated in post #3....."Nope, all factory ammo at that time. I have a bunch of it that I’m trying to run through".

And was incorrect as to maker of the ammo in post #22. "I think you can see in the picture it says Winchester on the cartridge that I ended up crying out of the chamber after the kaboom."


Headstamp on Kaboom case was FC not Win or WCC.

OP admitted in post #66; " I’m going to replace the entire BCG and pull down all the 223 I have because I’m not 100% sure it wan’t one of my reloads."

In this thread. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1648573

OP said this in his opening post.



yup, originally misidenties the headstamp but I'm about 99.99% sure it was factory ammo. the only reason is you never know, one of my rounds could have made it in that can but I doubt it.

anyway, going forward. with the exception of a little green tip I hang on to. I am only using my hand loads with my matching brass.

gave RRA the upper and they returned it with a clean bill of health.
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  #101  
Old 09-17-2020, 7:34 PM
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faris1984 faris1984 is offline
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Op Im glad you are ok. It happened to me in Ramadi I was using an AK47 though. I replaced that new AK with an old one made in the 70's and that sucked didnt have any hiccups.
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  #102  
Old 09-17-2020, 7:45 PM
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I had no idea AR had free floating firing pins. Just assumed it had all the fancy modernizations. Firing pin channel clean and everything?

I had this happen with an SKS.l except it was in battery. Before the internet and it wasn’t super well known that they’re prone to that if the firing pin is gunned up with cosmo. Pointed in a safe direction thankfully.
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