Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-10-2019, 8:03 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Elk Grove
Posts: 411
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default Case forming questions

I have a bunch of 22-250 cases that I've been using for quite some time. After annealing, the cases do not feed well, it's a Rem 700 varmint. New cases feed fine.
Prior to this I was just neck sizing and they worked great, they probably have about 6-8 firings on them. Now, having been annealed, even after full length resizing using either a Forster comp FL die or a Redding FL die they still don't fit well and take some effort to work the bolt. Will these fire form back to the chamber or are these cases toast? I don't need a stuck bolt.
Here's a pic of the cases after FL sizing. The ring is the only contact on the case. I used some layout fluid and this is the only place where it's making contact.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-11-2019, 2:39 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-11-2019, 3:11 PM
baih777 baih777 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 4,510
iTrader: 74 / 100%
Default

Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked.
I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows.
I'm Back.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-11-2019, 6:15 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Elk Grove
Posts: 411
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
Die makes good contact with shell plate. It's a cam-over single stage.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-11-2019, 6:18 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Elk Grove
Posts: 411
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
I'll try, but if I go much more it won't cam over, which isn't the worst but just jars to a stop at the top of the stroke.
Oh the case fits and looks good in a go/no go gauge.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-11-2019, 6:31 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Elk Grove
Posts: 411
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
Quote:
Originally Posted by baih777 View Post
Adjust your die tighter 1/16th of a turn at a time till your cases cycle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
I'll try, but if I go much more it won't cam over, which isn't the worst but just jars to a stop at the top of the stroke.
Oh the case fits and looks good in a go/no go gauge.
Well, my apologies. This is one time I'm glad to be wrong. I guess I should go back to the basics. I tightened the die down and test fed in the gun before and after and it solved the problem. The brass would barely go into battery before and after it went right in. Thanks! Dave
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-11-2019, 9:08 PM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

that's why FL resizing is the only way to go. At some point with neck sizing, you will need to FL size.

__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1

Last edited by bsumoba; 11-14-2019 at 9:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-13-2019, 10:51 AM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

^^^OK. I think the message in your vid is "Full Length Resize-always."

But several comments in the vid lead me to a question. Are all these elite marksmen using custom machined dies to get that .002" clearance many of them mentioned?

Seems that the SAAMI tolerances on case and chamber would make that .002" a difficult relation to achieve with commercially sold rifles and dies-unless you got lucky or handpicked each unit to match.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:20 AM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
^^^OK. I think the message in your vid is "Full Length Resize-always."

But several comments in the vid lead me to a question. Are all these elite marksmen using custom machined dies to get that .002" clearance many of them mentioned?

Seems that the SAAMI tolerances on case and chamber would make that .002" a difficult relation to achieve with commercially sold rifles and dies-unless you got lucky or handpicked each unit to match.
0.002" headspace clearance can be achieved with any die (assuming the chamber and die was made properly). For example, if you buy Whidden 6.5 creedmoore dies and use it for a 6.5 creedmoore chamberred Ruger RPR, you can easily bump the shoulder back 0.002". You do not need custom dies per se.

The reason for FL resizing is two fold:

* It provides clearance in the chamber to allow for the brass case to expand and therefore, contract, making it easier to eject the case.

* When sizing a case in a FL die, the case will be sized the same way every time. This is as consistent as you can get. When neck sizing, you assume the case expands and contracts consistently every time. This assumption is debunked because one typically has to FL size a case at some point because the case itself will not fit in the chamber or the case gets harder and harder to extract or close the bolt on.
__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:41 AM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.

Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up😨.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:22 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is online now
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 46,895
iTrader: 102 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
Die makes good contact with shell plate. It's a cam-over single stage.
WITH the case in the shelholder?
Put a flashlight behind the ram facing towards you.
Place a case in the shellholder and run it all the way up.
Look between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:46 PM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.

Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up😨.
The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:57 PM
DGoodale DGoodale is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Elk Grove
Posts: 411
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
WITH the case in the shelholder?
Put a flashlight behind the ram facing towards you.
Place a case in the shellholder and run it all the way up.
Look between the bottom of the die and the top of the shellholder.
The shell holder was empty and made what I thought to be good contact with the die. However after extending the die a little bit more and requiring a bit more force to cam over it successfully resize the case.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-13-2019, 3:08 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is online now
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 46,895
iTrader: 102 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGoodale View Post
The shell holder was empty and made what I thought to be good contact with the die.
However after extending the die a little bit more and requiring a bit more force to cam over it successfully resize the case.
Do you now understand that the PRESS FRAME stretches and the press linkage compresses during sizing and that there WAS a gap between your die and shellholder during sizing?
That gap is what made it possible to size the case MORE by screwing the die down more.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-13-2019, 3:29 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
I still don't see how you hold .002 to .003" clearance.

Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620". The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630". Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.

If I'm using a commercial die made to SAAMI specs with a rifle chamber reamed ro SAAMI specs, how do I close that clearance of .010" down to your stated clearance of .002"?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-13-2019, 3:38 PM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is online now
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 46,895
iTrader: 102 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620".
The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630".
Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.
Don't you mean ONE thousandth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
I still don't see how you hold .002 to .003" clearance.

Looking at SAAMI spec drawings for 6.5 creedmore, the case dia at the shoulder is 0.4620". The chamber dia at the shoulder is 0.4630". Ten thou "nominal" diametral clearance.

If I'm using a commercial die made to SAAMI specs with a rifle chamber reamed ro SAAMI specs, how do I close that clearance of .010" down to your stated clearance of .002"?
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-13-2019, 3:42 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

DOH!!!! Thankyou.

Never tey technical stuff after a contntious discussion with the wife😠😠.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-14-2019, 5:10 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Lou Murdica isn't using Whidden dies and his benchrest brass is tighter fitting than any F-Class shooters brass on the entire video. He says in the video for this type of shooting/reloading for a reason.

And saying that brass is consistent because it fits the chamber each time after full length sizing is truly brilliant.
Once you have clearance no matter how much or how inconsistent it fits.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-14-2019, 4:25 PM
fguffey fguffey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 922
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
So it's headspace clearance. When I heard that number mentioned many times I was also thinking of diametral clearance between case body and chamber wall.
Quote:
Thanx! But please be careful with that phrase "b*mp the sh**ld*r-or you-know-who might show up��.

The body itself is also sized down. In my die, the portion just below the shoulder is sized down from its fired size, about 0.002" (0.001" on each side). Generally speaking, this follows all the way to the web area of the case.
With Internet reloaders anything is possible; all that is necessary from the claims department is for one of the members in the claims department is to claim it is possible or they can claim they can do 'it'.

I am not a member of the claims department; but I do know something about case artifacts. I have blank cases that have been opened up to 35 Whelen. I have never sild any of the cases to unsuspecting purchasers but I did notice blank cases being offered for sale on Ebay that were formed from blank 30/06 cases. I could tell from the artifacts in the case.

And then there are those in the claims department that insist they can bump and or move the shoulder back; same thing, artifacts of the old case before sizing should indicate to the reloader it is impossible to move the shoulder back. It is possible to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head but it is imposable to move the shoulder back when doing it.

There should be a reloader on this forum that can explain how he moves the shoulder back; he could even include a the method he uses to 'bump' the shoulder back.

Me? I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back and then there are all of those that claim they have bump dies. The full length sizing die has case body support; that means nothing to a member of the claims department but the fact the die has full case body support makes bumping and or moving the shoulder back impossible.

And then there is 'on the one hand' and there is 'on the other hand'. In one hand the reloader has a full length sizing die and in the other a seating die. In one hand he has a full length sizing die that will not allow the shoulder to be moved back; in the other hand he has a seating die that will allow the reloader to move the shoulder back because it does not have case body support.

F, Guffey
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-14-2019, 4:28 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I knew this was going to happen......
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-14-2019, 5:03 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Sofbak
Ignore Guffey he knows nothing about the terminology used in today's reloading circles. He is trying to let you know that as the shoulder gets moved the brass itself hasn't changed its location but a new shoulder has been formed and it could have most of the old shoulder still contained within it. So if your shoulder sits 2 inches from the casehead and you move it to 1.5 inches from the casehead you have replaced one shoulder with another shoulder but you haven't moved the original brass you just turned it into the neck.
It is commonly called being a semantics *****.
For the average tactical or F-Class shooter full length sizing will allow the brass to chamber easily and they are not after gilt edge accuracy so it works for what they need.
On a bench only gun group size determines the winner not your score so full length sizing means the die matches the chamber as closely as humanly possible and a single die starts at over $400 and some will exceed twice that. You need to stick with one reamer and one gunsmith so you don't overwork your brass.
The video shows F-Class shooters one current benchrest shooter and one past benchrest shooter.
The current benchrest shooter says in the video for this type of shooting you can full length size. He was talking about F-class not benchrest.
Just trying to clarify.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

Last edited by LynnJr; 11-14-2019 at 5:13 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-14-2019, 5:09 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Thanjs for the clarification. As I suspected, "elite" benchrest shooters custom match dies and chambers.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-14-2019, 5:18 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Exactly. Those dies are bought in 0.0005 increments or half a thousandth.
Jerry Tierney a F-Class shooter on par with Larry Bartholome in the video cleaned his guns every 2nd or 3rd match something you will never see at a benchrest match.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-14-2019, 9:17 PM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Lou Murdica isn't using Whidden dies and his benchrest brass is tighter fitting than any F-Class shooters brass on the entire video. He says in the video for this type of shooting/reloading for a reason.

And saying that brass is consistent because it fits the chamber each time after full length sizing is truly brilliant.
Once you have clearance no matter how much or how inconsistent it fits.
I think you are misleading people. Everyone, go to the video I have in my previous post and go to 2:55. Lou Murdica tells you exactly what the modern day BR and F-Class shooter does. And if you do not want to watch it, he says FL size, he says there is no loss in accuracy when FL sizing, he says people used to neck size but now nearly everyone in BR FL size. And the most damaging part of his statement is, when neck sizing you will see a differnece in pressure testing and we know pressure differences is horrible for accuracy as you go further out in distance.

A lot of things have changed and the greatest changes to the reloading and equipment have occurred while you have been out of the game.

__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1

Last edited by bsumoba; 11-14-2019 at 9:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-15-2019, 6:11 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Actually nothing has changed much at all but you need more reloading experience to fully realize that. In the video several if them say for this game which is F-class. Have you ever shot Benchrest and how did you place?
Full length sizing in Benchrest is not the same as full length sizing in F-Class/Tactical. The brass fit in Benchrest is much tighter.
And the pressure he is talking about comes from the constriction and is minimal at best.
Today's F-Class/Tactical shooters have better dies available to them like those from Warner Tool so when you combine better brass control with new annealers that actually work consistently you get better results.
The smallest group ever fired is still 20+ times smaller than anything most will ever see and the brass had 8 firings with neck sized brass.
When you start using tuners you will be up to 2005.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

Last edited by LynnJr; 11-22-2019 at 9:47 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-16-2019, 6:45 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 922
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
I knew this was going to happen......
If I tell you a chicken dips snuff, don't argue; all you have to do is look under its wings to determine if it carries the little can under its right wing or left wing.

I tell you it is impossible to move the shoulder back, I tell you it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I tell you 'bump' is a function of the press, I tell you the picture in post one proves it.

And? You got nothing, All I expect from anyone is an explanation' one that explains how a reloader can move the shoulder back, and then there are all the others that think they are reloaders because they start a sentence with "I bump" and I ask "How do you do that"?

All I get back are responses from reloaders that act like they are in elementary class, How is it possible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full body support.

I started by trying to move the shoulder back, it I had managed to move the shoulder back with a full case body support die the volume of the case would have been reduced; It is impossible to move the shoulder back, the shoulder the reloaders starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with.

F. Guffey
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-16-2019, 6:53 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 922
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Is your sizing die contacting the shell holder and the end of the stroke? It looks like the die is stopping "short" and leaving a short length of the case un-sized. The case taper should continue up to the shoulder and it appears that a little of it is left straight walled instead if tapered.

jmho...
To determine if the die made it to the shell holder measure the distance from the bottom of the die to the top of the shell holder. If the die does not make it to the shell holder there will be a gap; UNSIZED? Again, you are looking at an artifact.

Back to the 'righty' or 'lefty' chicken; the artifact proves the shoulder the OP started with is not the same shoulder he finished with.

F. Guffey
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-22-2019, 9:48 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
If I tell you a chicken dips snuff, don't argue; all you have to do is look under its wings to determine if it carries the little can under its right wing or left wing.

I tell you it is impossible to move the shoulder back, I tell you it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I tell you 'bump' is a function of the press, I tell you the picture in post one proves it.

And? You got nothing, All I expect from anyone is an explanation' one that explains how a reloader can move the shoulder back, and then there are all the others that think they are reloaders because they start a sentence with "I bump" and I ask "How do you do that"?

All I get back are responses from reloaders that act like they are in elementary class, How is it possible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full body support.

I started by trying to move the shoulder back, it I had managed to move the shoulder back with a full case body support die the volume of the case would have been reduced; It is impossible to move the shoulder back, the shoulder the reloaders starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with.

F. Guffey
You don't know enough about reloading to fill a thimble.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-23-2019, 5:19 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Orange County
Posts: 6,329
iTrader: 57 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
If I tell you a chicken dips snuff, don't argue; all you have to do is look under its wings to determine if it carries the little can under its right wing or left wing.

I tell you it is impossible to move the shoulder back, I tell you it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I tell you 'bump' is a function of the press, I tell you the picture in post one proves it.

And? You got nothing, All I expect from anyone is an explanation' one that explains how a reloader can move the shoulder back, and then there are all the others that think they are reloaders because they start a sentence with "I bump" and I ask "How do you do that"?

All I get back are responses from reloaders that act like they are in elementary class, How is it possible to move the shoulder back when sizing with a die that has full body support.

I started by trying to move the shoulder back, it I had managed to move the shoulder back with a full case body support die the volume of the case would have been reduced; It is impossible to move the shoulder back, the shoulder the reloaders starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with.

F. Guffey
It is possible to move the shoulder back. It goes like this: a fired case has the shoulder here, and we need it to be there. So we bump the location of the shoulder using a sizing die. It works. You can measure the case before and after.
__________________
Reloading is not for everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-23-2019, 8:51 AM
fguffey fguffey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 922
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
It is possible to move the shoulder back. It goes like this: a fired case has the shoulder here, and we need it to be there. So we bump the location of the shoulder using a sizing die. It works. You can measure the case before and after.
I have asked you to 'think about it', that did not work; I have tried to motivate you to think. Nothing works. I have tried to get you to remove your hands from your pockets and keyboard. Nothing works.

I can shorten the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head; I have never been able to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head by moving the shoulder back; it is impossible to move the shoulder of a case back. It is impossible to move the shoulder back without bulging the case at the shoulder/case body juncture "because the case is not allowed to bulge because the full length sizer die has full case body support.

F. Guffey
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-23-2019, 11:09 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Orange County
Posts: 6,329
iTrader: 57 / 100%
Default

It is possible if you think about it the right way:

Your fired case has a shoulder and we need to reposition it. We do that with a sizing die. It’s not hard to comprehend.
__________________
Reloading is not for everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:34 PM
sofbak sofbak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,965
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Why, oh WHY do you guys keep feeding this troll?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:58 PM
Butthead's Avatar
Butthead Butthead is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: IE
Posts: 503
iTrader: 35 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey View Post
I have asked you to 'think about it', that did not work; I have tried to motivate you to think. Nothing works. I have tried to get you to remove your hands from your pockets and keyboard. Nothing works.

I can shorten the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head; I have never been able to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head by moving the shoulder back; it is impossible to move the shoulder of a case back. It is impossible to move the shoulder back without bulging the case at the shoulder/case body juncture "because the case is not allowed to bulge because the full length sizer die has full case body support.

F. Guffey
When you say "It is impossible to move the shoulder back without bulging the case" what you meant to say is you cannot move the shoulder back without bulging the case. The rest of us can and do so regularly.
__________________
Never return fire!


2e 32 32 20 2e 33 38 30 20 2e 33 38 20 39 6d 6d 20 2e 34 34 20 2e 35 30 41 45 20 2e 32 32 33 20 35 2e 35 36 20 33 30 2d 33 30 20 2e 33 30 38 20 2e 35 30 44 54 43 20 32 32 2d 32 35 30 20 33 37 4d 4d 20 2e 34 35 41 43 50

Last edited by Butthead; 11-23-2019 at 1:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-23-2019, 1:58 PM
JagerDog's Avatar
JagerDog JagerDog is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South SF Bay Area
Posts: 9,520
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofbak View Post
I knew this was going to happen......
I've never seen anyone use so many words just to say "brass flows" (toward the scrap end).

But then most actually try to educate/communicate vs. pontificate.
__________________
You know it's cold outside when the socialists have their hands in their own pockets



#Blackolivesmatter
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-24-2019, 7:15 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default



Lil Frank Guffey is hooked on semantics and doesn't know modern terminology.
When you push on the shoulder with your die the original shoulder moves into the neck making the case longer.
After firing the extra length moves rearward back into the body of the case as it expands to fill all the voided area from the sizing operation.
If you regularly push the shoulder back to far it will lead to a casehead separation as upon ignition the expanding gases will push the unburned powder into the shoulder stretching the case right in front of the casehead. After repeated firings that thinking will eventually cause a failure.
In the old days before Lil Frank was posting his nonsense wildcatters used straightwalled cases and put the shoulder anywhere the wanted it. Basic brass and even brass without flasholes or primer pockets was commonplace.
Fast forward to the internet days of reloading and we have posters no longer able to do what was once called routine loading practices.
Neck sizing is now so difficult that the millennials can no longer do it without locking up there bolts.
The reloading hasn't improved it has regressed.
Ask Lil Frank if he can make the brass in the picture and also ask him how it has 2 shoulders instead of just one. Ask him if brass moves forward or just laterally when fired and if he says it only moves laterally why?
If he correctly says it moves in all directions ask him how are we able to size it back to it's original size so it fits the chamber?
If the shoulder can't be moved you can't size the brass.
We would shoot it until it gets tight in the chamber and toss it in the scrap bin. We don't do that because we are able to move/bump the shoulder something Lil Frank can't do.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20151002_171812.jpg (96.1 KB, 69 views)
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-24-2019, 8:37 PM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
...The reloading hasn't improved it has regressed.

Sometimes, simple is better. Reloading has regressed and scores and groups have gotten better? Not sure how you figure that. Neck sizing was the way to reload in the past. Now, nearly every precision shooter has shifted to FL sizing.

Reloading components have also gotten better, namely the bullet. That and the quality of barrels have progressed the sport tremendously.
__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-25-2019, 8:40 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,857
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Sometimes, simple is better. Reloading has regressed and scores and groups have gotten better? Not sure how you figure that. Neck sizing was the way to reload in the past. Now, nearly every precision shooter has shifted to FL sizing.

Reloading components have also gotten better, namely the bullet. That and the quality of barrels have progressed the sport tremendously.
I won't say it's a trend but a tried an true method. .008" neck clearance. .002" shoulder bump. Seat bullet at or jam on lands. Everything self centers and carbon fouling is less of an issue. David Tubb speaks of this specifically with the 6XC and XTC matches.

I don't like jamming the bullet into the lands. It would be my luck someone would call a cease fire and now i have a chambered round I don't want to open the bolt on.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-25-2019, 9:21 AM
bsumoba's Avatar
bsumoba bsumoba is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,121
iTrader: 73 / 99%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstott View Post
I won't say it's a trend but a tried an true method. .008" neck clearance. .002" shoulder bump. Seat bullet at or jam on lands. Everything self centers and carbon fouling is less of an issue. David Tubb speaks of this specifically with the 6XC and XTC matches.

I don't like jamming the bullet into the lands. It would be my luck someone would call a cease fire and now i have a chambered round I don't want to open the bolt on.
The pattern I have been seeing is 0.002 shoulder bump and minimum 0.005" neck clearance, but more does not hurt. so 0.008" is good. I think I am at 0.005".
__________________
10% off and Free shipping on all BarrelCool products through 2019!
Visit- www.barrelcool.com

The Original Chamber Flag and Barrel Cooler in 1
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-25-2019, 10:50 AM
kcstott kcstott is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,857
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
The pattern I have been seeing is 0.002 shoulder bump and minimum 0.005" neck clearance, but more does not hurt. so 0.008" is good. I think I am at 0.005".
.008" seems to be about the max to limit over working the brass. I'd prefer a little less as I keep my guns cleaner then that and I anneal after each firing. .005" would be ideal in a bolt gun.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-26-2019, 4:52 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,654
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
Sometimes, simple is better. Reloading has regressed and scores and groups have gotten better? Not sure how you figure that. Neck sizing was the way to reload in the past. Now, nearly every precision shooter has shifted to FL sizing.

Reloading components have also gotten better, namely the bullet. That and the quality of barrels have progressed the sport tremendously.

If you read your own post it answers your question.
And neck sizing is alive and well for those who can do it properly.
Precision shooters and F-Class isn't about the smallest group so they don't need to load to benchrest levels.
And in case you don't see it barrels have gotten better and the shooters in precision rifle and F-Class arer now using what the Benchrest crowd used before 2010.
6 Dasher with Vapor Trail Bullets formerly Clay Spencer bullets is what I was using in 2008.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

Last edited by LynnJr; 11-26-2019 at 4:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:32 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.