Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Discussions of Faith
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-23-2019, 10:28 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default The Jesus of History vs The Christ of Faith

At the encouragement of a forum member, I picked up this guy's book about a year ago & loved it. I'd say it's about as close to a 1-book summary of an undergraduate education in NT studies than anything I've read yet. Plus, he's a compelling storyteller. Here's a YouTube summary I ran across today. At 1 hour, it's not short. But there's obviously a lot of ground to cover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOMFjQfJ8w
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-23-2019, 2:01 PM
The War Wagon's Avatar
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: da' 'BURGH
Posts: 5,783
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Exclamation

There is no difference - save for libtard minds.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-23-2019, 4:21 PM
WASR10's Avatar
WASR10 WASR10 is offline
Just Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 2,438
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

Having a post-grad degree in NT theology, I look forward to watching this. Any comments I may have will follow. Thanks for sharing!
__________________
Mark 16:16
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-24-2019, 4:48 AM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Pure heresy. Took less than 15 minutes to (most of which was spent on his personal story) to see he's a typical, non-Christian, liberal self-proclaimed academic who rejects the Bible to come up with his own heretical story of our Lord Jesus Christ (He's not "just" "Jesus" - He's Lord and Christ).

As always, stick to the authentic, Holy-Spirit inspired and illumined (if you're a Christian) story of our Lord Jesus Christ - in the Bible.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-24-2019, 8:33 AM
Garand Hunter Garand Hunter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 538
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

" The Jesus of History " is the title. Whose history ? Personally I don't need to see anyone else tell me about Jesus after 60 plus years living with the relationship God The Father entered into with me when I excerced FAITH in the Gospel and received Jesus as Savior and Lord , citing John's gospel chapter 1.

Psalm 1
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-24-2019, 9:07 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Pure heresy. Took less than 15 minutes to (most of which was spent on his personal story) to see he's a typical, non-Christian, liberal self-proclaimed academic who rejects the Bible to come up with his own heretical story of our Lord Jesus Christ (He's not "just" "Jesus" - He's Lord and Christ).

As always, stick to the authentic, Holy-Spirit inspired and illumined (if you're a Christian) story of our Lord Jesus Christ - in the Bible.
Self proclaimed, you say?

******************

From his website:
Aslan’s degrees include a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Santa Clara University (Major focus: New Testament; Minor: Greek), a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University (Major focus: History of Religions), a PhD in the Sociology of Religions from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Iowa, where he was named the Truman Capote Fellow in Fiction. An Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, he is also a member of the Los Angeles Institute for the Humanities and the Pacific Council on International Policy. He serves on the board of directors of the Ploughshares Fund, which gives grants for peace and security issues; Narrative Four, which connects people through the exchange of stories; PEN USA, which champions the rights of writers under siege around the world; the Los Angeles Review of Books, and the Levantine Cultural Center, which builds bridges between Americans and the Arab/Muslim world through the arts.

Aslan is a tenured Professor of Creative Writing at the University of California, Riverside and serves on the board of trustees for the Chicago Theological Seminary and The Yale Humanist Community, which supports atheists, agnostics, and humanists at home and abroad. A member of the American Academy of Religions, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the International Qur’anic Studies Association, Aslan’s previous academic positions include the Wallerstein Distinguished Professor of Religion, Community and Conflict at Drew University in New Jersey (2012-2013), and Visiting Assistant Professor of Religion at the University of Iowa (2000-2003).

*************

You've got to think pretty highly of yourself to consider him a nobody in academics.

Last edited by CVShooter; 05-24-2019 at 9:15 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-24-2019, 9:26 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
Having a post-grad degree in NT theology, I look forward to watching this. Any comments I may have will follow. Thanks for sharing!
Glad to meet a fellow academic. I did my graduate studies in history -- undergrad was religion.

Last edited by CVShooter; 05-24-2019 at 9:34 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-24-2019, 12:38 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Self proclaimed, you say?

******************

From his website:
Aslan’s degrees include a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Santa Clara University (Major focus: New Testament; Minor: Greek), a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University (Major focus: History of Religions), a PhD in the Sociology of Religions from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Iowa, where he was named the Truman Capote Fellow in Fiction. An Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, he is also a member of the Los Angeles Institute for the Humanities and the Pacific Council on International Policy. He serves on the board of directors of the Ploughshares Fund, which gives grants for peace and security issues; Narrative Four, which connects people through the exchange of stories; PEN USA, which champions the rights of writers under siege around the world; the Los Angeles Review of Books, and the Levantine Cultural Center, which builds bridges between Americans and the Arab/Muslim world through the arts.

Aslan is a tenured Professor of Creative Writing at the University of California, Riverside and serves on the board of trustees for the Chicago Theological Seminary and The Yale Humanist Community, which supports atheists, agnostics, and humanists at home and abroad. A member of the American Academy of Religions, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the International Qur’anic Studies Association, Aslan’s previous academic positions include the Wallerstein Distinguished Professor of Religion, Community and Conflict at Drew University in New Jersey (2012-2013), and Visiting Assistant Professor of Religion at the University of Iowa (2000-2003).

*************

You've got to think pretty highly of yourself to consider him a nobody in academics.
I stand corrected on the self-proclaimed academic. Thanks for correcting me.

But, with that said, as is usual for non-Christians, it's amazing how much knowledge one can acquire and not know one bit of truth. The simplest new-born Christian knows more truth than him. 1 Cor. 1:18-31 describes him well.

Still pure heresy and not worth a Christian's time.

Again, thanks for the correction. My bad as they say.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-24-2019, 12:51 PM
socal m1 shooter's Avatar
socal m1 shooter socal m1 shooter is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 330
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
At the encouragement of a forum member, I picked up this guy's book about a year ago & loved it. I'd say it's about as close to a 1-book summary of an undergraduate education in NT studies than anything I've read yet.
Maybe at a liberal seminary, one of those that ordains practicing homosexuals or such as that.

The Aspen Institute which sponsored his talk is a left-leaning think tank, so it would be surprising if they had someone other than a fellow leftist apostate come and give a talk. The gospel is offensive as it is, and someone who properly conveys the word of God always offends someone, which leftists can't abide (unless the offended party is white, Christian, male, and/or a member of the Trump family or Trump administration).

In Christian circles, a more widely-respected work is "The Historical Jesus" by Gary Habermas. He has excerpts on his Web site, and of course the book can be sampled/purchased from Amazon.

Habermas is a real scholar, and I doubt very much an institute like Aspen, once headed by a former CNN CEO, would ever book him for a talk anytime in my life. God forbid, he might actually convince someone that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus
Chapter IV
Reinterpretations of the Historical Jesus

In addition to the major historical approaches presented in the last chapter, many have attempted to write more-or-less popular lives of Jesus. These authors often advocate unorthodox interpretations: Jesus never died on the cross; he was connected with the Qumran community; someone else changed his message to fit their own desires; he traveled to various parts of the word during the so called "silent years" or even after the crucifixion.

While such works are given virtually no attention by careful scholars, these attempts are sometimes very popular with those who are unfamiliar with the data behind such questions. Many are bothered by nonfactual or illogical presentations, but are not quite able to locate the problems involved. This is the major reason that these approaches are included in this book. We will investigate several of the most popular recent attempts to present unorthodox pictures of Jesus' life.

The Rise of the Swoon Theory

Each of the fictitious lives of Jesus surveyed in Chapter 1 taught that Jesus survived death on the cross and was later revived. His "appearances" to his disciples were not miraculous, of course, for he had never died in the first place. The swoon theory, espoused by Heinrich Paulus and others during the heyday of the Liberal naturalistic theories, was quite popular in the first half of the nineteenth century. It was disproven by the facts and indicted by Liberals like David Strauss. Before examining this view, it will be helpful to present an overview of two contemporary attempts to write similar lives of Jesus.

Hugh Schonfield's The Passover Plot created quite a sensation when it appeared.(1) However, very few readers were aware of the similarity between this book and earlier fictitious lives of Jesus. For Schonfield, Jesus had carefully planned his career of public ministry in accordance with his belief that he was Israel's Messiah.(2) Accordingly, he plotted events such as his triumphal entry into Jerusalem, on which occasion Lazarus helped him make the appropriate arrangements.(3) Jesus made especially intricate plans concerning his upcoming crucifixion, which required especially accurate timing. On this occasion his chief confidant was Joseph of Arimathea.(4)

While Jesus was on the cross, Joseph made arrangements for an unidentified man to give Jesus a drink that had been drugged. As a result, Jesus slipped quickly into a state of unconsciousness, which made him appear dead. Nonetheless, Jesus was in a very serious condition when he was removed from the cross, especially complicated by John's report of the spear wound in his chest.(5) On Saturday, Jesus' body was removed from the tomb, after which he regained consciousness briefly, but died shortly thereafter and was reburied.(6)

At this point, Schonfield turns to his proposed reconstruction of events that account for the disciples' belief in Jesus' resurrection. The unidentified man at the cross who administered the drug is the key figure in this reconstruction. He helped carry Jesus to the tomb, then returned on Saturday to rescue him. During Jesus' brief period of consciousness, Jesus asked this man to convey to his disciples that he had risen from the dead. However, Jesus died shortly after and this person helped bury him. It is also this anonymous person who was present in the tomb when the women came early on Sunday morning and was the one mistaken by Mary Magdalene as the gardener. Later this same man visited the disciples on the road to Emmaus, at the seashore and in Galilee. The disciples mistook this stranger for Jesus and proclaimed his resurrection from the dead.(7)

It should be obvious to the reasonably impartial reader that this incredible sequence of events, where an unidentified man simply "appears" very conveniently whenever there is a need to explain anything away, is extremely questionable, to say the least. The entire plot closely parallels the fictitious lives of Jesus which are now so outdated and ignored by serious scholars. Indeed, even Schonfield admits that much of his account "is an imaginative reconstruction."(8) Later he explains that "We are nowhere claiming for our reconstruction that it represents what actually happened."(9) According to John A. T. Robinson, The Passover Plot is an example of a popularistic book which is factually groundless enough that, if the public were not so interested in virtually anyone who writes on Christianity, it "would be laughed out of court."(10) Therefore, we assert that there is a very high improbability against Schonfield's reconstruction of Jesus' life.

One other example of the swoon theory in popular literature is Donovan Joyce's The Jesus Scroll.(11) The thesis of this book, which contains an even more incredible string of improbabilities than Schonfield's, will be left for a later section of this chapter. However, Joyce's account of the swoon theory is discussed here.

For Joyce, Jesus was also planning his escape from death on the cross. Accordingly, he was drugged and the Roman soldiers did not examine Jesus too closely, perhaps because they had been bribed. Neither did they stab him in the side with a spear in order to insure his death. As a result, Jesus did not die on the cross. Rather, he was resuscitated in the tomb, apparently by a doctor who had been concealed inside ahead of time.(12)

This account of Jesus' swoon likewise smacks of fictitious aspects, similar to both Schonfield and the eighteenth and nineteenth century attempts.

[...]
Just a taste of his book.
__________________
WTB extractor for S&W 659, and magazines for S&W 1076. Please PM if you have one or more to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-24-2019, 1:43 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
Maybe at a liberal seminary, one of those that ordains practicing homosexuals or such as that.

The Aspen Institute which sponsored his talk is a left-leaning think tank, so it would be surprising if they had someone other than a fellow leftist apostate come and give a talk. The gospel is offensive as it is, and someone who properly conveys the word of God always offends someone, which leftists can't abide (unless the offended party is white, Christian, male, and/or a member of the Trump family or Trump administration).

In Christian circles, a more widely-respected work is "The Historical Jesus" by Gary Habermas. He has excerpts on his Web site, and of course the book can be sampled/purchased from Amazon.

Habermas is a real scholar, and I doubt very much an institute like Aspen, once headed by a former CNN CEO, would ever book him for a talk anytime in my life. God forbid, he might actually convince someone that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God.



Just a taste of his book.
Was the author advocating the "swoon theory" or just surveying some of what others have been saying?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-24-2019, 1:54 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
I stand corrected on the self-proclaimed academic. Thanks for correcting me.

But, with that said, as is usual for non-Christians, it's amazing how much knowledge one can acquire and not know one bit of truth. The simplest new-born Christian knows more truth than him. 1 Cor. 1:18-31 describes him well.

Still pure heresy and not worth a Christian's time.

Again, thanks for the correction. My bad as they say.
So, it seems that if a set of facts contradict your view of the Biblical accounts, then the facts are wrong. Would you agree with that statement?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-24-2019, 2:25 PM
socal m1 shooter's Avatar
socal m1 shooter socal m1 shooter is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 330
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Was the author advocating the "swoon theory" or just surveying some of what others have been saying?
"The Historical Jesus" is a comprehensive survey of the historical Jesus. You can click on the link I provided and see that I cited a small snippet of a much larger chapter, covering various revisionist treatments of the life of Jesus of Nazareth, with a common thread being that all of them attempt to argue that Jesus of Nazareth was not Messiah, not the Son of God, just a man, a good teacher, a swell guy. The demons who encountered Jesus of Nazareth when he walked the Earth had better theology than these revisionists.

But the book goes far deeper than that, as you can see from the rest of the excerpt. If you have graduate-level training in history, you're in a better position than many to appreciate his survey of ancient sources, which is the latter half.

Satisfy yourself, have a look.
__________________
WTB extractor for S&W 659, and magazines for S&W 1076. Please PM if you have one or more to sell.

Last edited by socal m1 shooter; 05-25-2019 at 8:56 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-24-2019, 2:52 PM
wpage's Avatar
wpage wpage is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,815
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

The history of Jesus is well documented already. The fortelling in the old testament.

The realithy of His being in the New Testament.

All told in the Bible. A source document since thousands of years ago.
__________________
God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life.
John 3:16

United Air Epic Fail Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-24-2019, 3:28 PM
billvau's Avatar
billvau billvau is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norcal mountains
Posts: 662
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
So, it seems that if a set of facts contradict your view of the Biblical accounts, then the facts are wrong. Would you agree with that statement?
No.
__________________
Pastor Bill

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God…” Martin Luther
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-24-2019, 7:34 PM
Alan Block Alan Block is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,877
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I read the book (and have posted on it too). If it's not worth it for a Christian, it sure is worth it for and educated, inquisitive human.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-25-2019, 8:50 AM
socal m1 shooter's Avatar
socal m1 shooter socal m1 shooter is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 330
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

C.S. Lewis famously observed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.S. Lewis
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
__________________
WTB extractor for S&W 659, and magazines for S&W 1076. Please PM if you have one or more to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-28-2019, 1:53 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
CS Lewis was very black/white & dualist. Great writer -- I enjoyed a few of his books. But he has little sense of (or patience for) nuance or complexity.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-28-2019, 1:54 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billvau View Post
No.
Glad to hear it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-28-2019, 2:25 PM
SWalt SWalt is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Riverside
Posts: 5,823
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Its a bit funny that there is this notion that there is no real evidence that Jesus existed but yet there is a historical Jesus? Don't get me wrong, He is seated at the right hand of God, but when someone writes about "actual" history I'm kinda sure its made up extrapolations and conjecture of how they think he was.
__________________
^^^The above is just an opinion.

NRA Patron Member
CRPA 5 yr Member

"...which from their verbosity, their endless tautologies, their involutions of case within case, and parenthesis within parenthesis, and their multiplied efforts at certainty by saids and aforesaids, by ors and by ands, to make them more plain, do really render them more perplexed and incomprehensible, not only to common readers, but to lawyers themselves. " - Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-28-2019, 2:33 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
"The Historical Jesus" is a comprehensive survey of the historical Jesus. You can click on the link I provided and see that I cited a small snippet of a much larger chapter, covering various revisionist treatments of the life of Jesus of Nazareth, with a common thread being that all of them attempt to argue that Jesus of Nazareth was not Messiah, not the Son of God, just a man, a good teacher, a swell guy. The demons who encountered Jesus of Nazareth when he walked the Earth had better theology than these revisionists.

But the book goes far deeper than that, as you can see from the rest of the excerpt. If you have graduate-level training in history, you're in a better position than many to appreciate his survey of ancient sources, which is the latter half.

Satisfy yourself, have a look.
I took a quick look at the link. Admittedly, I have little patience for theories that begin with a premise and then look for evidence to support it. For example: What if Jesus didn't actually die? Here's some evidence for that idea. What if somebody else hung in his place? Here's some evidence for that idea. Far better, in my opinion, to keep it bottom-up or inductive -- here's some evidence, here are some possible explanations. It takes somebody with a lot more patience than me to take these ideas and shoot them down one-by-one. I just write them off too quickly.

It seems that a lot of authors, particularly in religious circles (both academic as well as popular) are wiling to entertain the most bizarre and strange ideas -- ones that are far harder to believe than the theories they're hoping to dislodge.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-28-2019, 3:59 PM
WASR10's Avatar
WASR10 WASR10 is offline
Just Me
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 2,438
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

Okay, I’ve watched this video in its entirety. I would say this speaker is 85% in error of history, 5% in misunderstanding of history and 5% in error of ancient religious doctrine. He claims certain things that simply are not true. I can expand on that, but suffice it to say, his motivation is not in regards to the integrity of history, nor that of one of faith. It seems his motivation is that of rendering excuse from any doctrine, and that of some other standing.

He formulates a theory based on Jesus’ movement as a political and social movement, rather than spiritual. His own words actually betray that position in parts.

Jesus as a historical figure is indeed a fascinating study, religious intents aside. I believe this speaker has been clouded by the cares of this world which has covered the significance of a historical man called Jesus of Nazareth, regardless of whether he believes who that person was.
__________________
Mark 16:16
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-28-2019, 9:28 PM
pbsmind's Avatar
pbsmind pbsmind is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Orange County
Posts: 487
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Haven't had time to watch the video yet, but reading what CVShooter posted about his academic career, it would seem he's pretty biased.

I would recommend "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. The guy was an atheist set on disproving Christianity and became a Christian.
__________________
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-29-2019, 9:23 AM
RandyD's Avatar
RandyD RandyD is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: La Jolla, California
Posts: 5,585
iTrader: 45 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Self proclaimed, you say?

******************

From his website:
Aslan’s degrees include a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from Santa Clara University (Major focus: New Testament; Minor: Greek), a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University (Major focus: History of Religions), a PhD in the Sociology of Religions from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and a Master of Fine Arts from the University of Iowa, where he was named the Truman Capote Fellow in Fiction. An Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, he is also a member of the Los Angeles Institute for the Humanities and the Pacific Council on International Policy. He serves on the board of directors of the Ploughshares Fund, which gives grants for peace and security issues; Narrative Four, which connects people through the exchange of stories; PEN USA, which champions the rights of writers under siege around the world; the Los Angeles Review of Books, and the Levantine Cultural Center, which builds bridges between Americans and the Arab/Muslim world through the arts.

Aslan is a tenured Professor of Creative Writing at the University of California, Riverside and serves on the board of trustees for the Chicago Theological Seminary and The Yale Humanist Community, which supports atheists, agnostics, and humanists at home and abroad. A member of the American Academy of Religions, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the International Qur’anic Studies Association, Aslan’s previous academic positions include the Wallerstein Distinguished Professor of Religion, Community and Conflict at Drew University in New Jersey (2012-2013), and Visiting Assistant Professor of Religion at the University of Iowa (2000-2003).

*************

You've got to think pretty highly of yourself to consider him a nobody in academics.
You may not realize it, but your post reveals a lot more than you may realize. You have the option of reading about Jesus in the Bible, which Christians accept the Bible as divinely inspired writings from God, and in which God states that Jesus is Him incarnate as a man. It appears you are impressed with the degrees, affiliations and associations of a man to provide you with an insight into Jesus. A Christian, who has faith in the Bible to direct him, would reject those credentials, mostly because those credentials are in opposition to the Bible.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-29-2019, 9:44 AM
Red-Osier's Avatar
Red-Osier Red-Osier is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: 209
Posts: 9,659
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyD View Post
You may not realize it, but your post reveals a lot more than you may realize. You have the option of reading about Jesus in the Bible, which Christians accept the Bible as divinely inspired writings from God, and in which God states that Jesus is Him incarnate as a man. It appears you are impressed with the degrees, affiliations and associations of a man to provide you with an insight into Jesus. A Christian, who has faith in the Bible to direct him, would reject those credentials, mostly because those credentials are in opposition to the Bible.
+1
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-29-2019, 9:57 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WASR10 View Post
He formulates a theory based on Jesus’ movement as a political and social movement, rather than spiritual. His own words actually betray that position in parts.
To understand Jesus's movement as anything other than a political and social movement is to take Jesus completely out of his context of a first century Palestinian Jew under Roman occupation. Nobody alive at the time Jesus walked the earth would have understood him any other way. There may have been a spiritual component, yes. But those things weren't really separate back then. There was no separation of church & state -- it's all the same. There was no separation between temple sacrifice and political rule from a foreign, pagan empire. It's all interconnected and part of the same issue. An individual's obligations to YHWH were connected to the community and its religious, political and social practices. To tease out just the spiritual component is to Hellenize Christianity and make it more palatable to the (mostly pagan) culture at-large. No first century Palestinian Jew would have thought of the spiritual as somehow separate from the political and social.

The Hellenized Jews may have. Paul, for example, separated them. The Gnostics/Docetics would have. Essenes, maybe. Those in Asia-minor, Alexandria, etc. -- they had much more of the Hellenistic perspective. But a Jew from Nazareth challenging the authorities outright? Nope. Jesus was very traditional in that sense.

Indeed, this is why he was crucified. To be a Messiah is sedition against Rome and the Roman order (puppet leaders in office: Herod, Pilate, Sadducees, etc.). There is no other way he could have been understood and he seems to make his case pretty clear in the gospels.

This is partly why he was rejected as a Messiah by the Jews. He was inviting trouble and they needed to distance themselves from him before he rocked the boat too much. They didn't need the temple to get destroyed again or otherwise bring the hammer of Rome down upon them even more. Better to let one man die than see legions of Roman soldiers marching toward Jerusalem, leveling everything in their path. In fact, it wasn't long after Jesus was executed that Rome grew tired of all these Messiahs challenging them and did exactly that.

Personally, as a Christian at the time, I recall all this sinking in one night while on the banks of Kinneret (Galilee) back in the late 90s. It hit me that if I had been born a first century Jew & heard about this Jesus of Nazareth guy, I would have had the same feelings as they did -- crucify him! Let him die and save the people from ruin. As a Christian, that was a bitter pill to swallow.

That is not to say that Jesus was not a spiritual leader (pardon the double negative). And who he is to you or what meaning his life & death gives you is for you to decide. Parts of his life and ministry are quite inspiring, to say the least.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-29-2019, 4:27 PM
socal m1 shooter's Avatar
socal m1 shooter socal m1 shooter is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 330
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
[...]
Personally, as a Christian at the time, I recall all this sinking in one night while on the banks of Kinneret (Galilee) back in the late 90s. It hit me that if I had been born a first century Jew & heard about this Jesus of Nazareth guy, I would have had the same feelings as they did -- crucify him! Let him die and save the people from ruin. As a Christian, that was a bitter pill to swallow.
[...]
I'm so sorry to read this.

But if you had said from the first that you had some affinity for the proffie in the OP video because of your own experience, I don't know that you would have gotten different responses.

There is a famous quote from Solzhenitsyn that calls to mind what the Bible says about the heart:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
So let the reader who expects this book to be a political exposé slam its covers shut right now.
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us, and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
During the life of any heart, this line keeps changing place; sometimes it is squeezed one way by exuberant evil, and sometimes it shifts and allows enough space for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.
Socrates taught us: know thyself.
Confronted by the pit into which we are about to toss those who have done us harm, we halt, stricken dumb: it is after all only because of the way things worked out that they were the executioners and we weren't.
But of course, he was a Christian.
__________________
WTB extractor for S&W 659, and magazines for S&W 1076. Please PM if you have one or more to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:59 PM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal m1 shooter View Post
I'm so sorry to read this.

But if you had said from the first that you had some affinity for the proffie in the OP video because of your own experience, I don't know that you would have gotten different responses.

There is a famous quote from Solzhenitsyn that calls to mind what the Bible says about the heart:



But of course, he was a Christian.
Why are you sorry to read that? Learning that not everything is black/white and the world is infinitely more complex than we can understand is part of growing up & maturing. I'm certainly not sorry that I had the realization so much as a touch of regret for thinking I was somehow above it all for all the years prior. I've said it before -- I'm a fat hypocrite and an ignorant one at that. I know a lot and I understand a few things. But the depth of my ignorance far outweighs all I will ever know. What's sad to me is that other people haven't yet figured that out about themselves as well. Overconfidence (pride) is the devil's favorite sin...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-01-2019, 3:04 PM
ilikeguns's Avatar
ilikeguns ilikeguns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 761
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Appreciate the post OP. Reminds me of Bart E. and his critical scholarship on the NT.
But anything that goes beyond the widely accepted first hand sources in.... Johns gospel, Matthews gospel, Mark or Luke’s second hand historical account from eye witnesses... is pure conjecture. One is left to fill in the gaps with pure nonsense from guess work. How is this justified?
Aside from Habermas, Ben Witherington has a good book called “what have they done with Jesus?” thats also on this topic.
I stand by Johns gospel due to its early manuscript evidence and its authors relationship to Jesus. But some folks prefer a 2000 year late book by a modern author for truth about what really happened. What would you stand by?

Last edited by ilikeguns; 06-01-2019 at 5:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:28 AM
MrFancyPants's Avatar
MrFancyPants MrFancyPants is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 478
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Self proclaimed, you say?

You've got to think pretty highly of yourself to consider him a nobody in academics.
Care to know how many "academics" with piles of certificates and degrees I've seen and heard through the years who don't have a lick of sense or knowledge of what's actually real?

I don't care if the guy has 100 masters degrees. That says phuckall about what he actually knows of the truth.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-06-2019, 4:16 PM
Blov Blov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Just a little clarification. Does everyone understand that Reza Aslan is a Muslim? He is also a radical leftist.

Last edited by Blov; 08-06-2019 at 5:50 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-04-2019, 3:37 PM
ilikeguns's Avatar
ilikeguns ilikeguns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 761
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blov View Post
Just a little clarification. Does everyone understand that Reza Aslan is a Muslim? He is also a radical leftist.
Ha that figures
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-05-2019, 8:58 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blov View Post
Just a little clarification. Does everyone understand that Reza Aslan is a Muslim? He is also a radical leftist.
Do you not see the irony of your criticism? If a Muslim or "radical leftist," as you call him, cannot offer you any useful knowledge about your faith, then you, presumably a right-wing Christian, cannot offer any knowledge or criticism of Islam or of the political left. You do not have to buy into an ideology to know a lot about it. If that weren't true, then I would be unfit to ever offer knowledge or criticism of communism since I'm a capitalist.

Discounting somebody's knowledge simply based on their religion says more about you than it does of the person you're trying to discredit. It's hard to take a person seriously in a discussion if they willfully choose ignorance at every turn. I don't know if this is what you're doing but your comment certainly points that direction.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-05-2019, 6:43 PM
ilikeguns's Avatar
ilikeguns ilikeguns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 761
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Do you not see the irony of your criticism? If a Muslim or "radical leftist," as you call him, cannot offer you any useful knowledge about your faith, then you, presumably a right-wing Christian, cannot offer any knowledge or criticism of Islam or of the political left. You do not have to buy into an ideology to know a lot about it. If that weren't true, then I would be unfit to ever offer knowledge or criticism of communism since I'm a capitalist.

Discounting somebody's knowledge simply based on their religion says more about you than it does of the person you're trying to discredit. It's hard to take a person seriously in a discussion if they willfully choose ignorance at every turn. I don't know if this is what you're doing but your comment certainly points that direction.
Just sayin, Muslims wouldn’t want to read a christians book on why Muhammad wasn’t really a prophet. Would you take advice from an anti-gunner opinion on gun control?
If we’re trying to learn math, it’s one thing. Religious or political history I’d check my sources.
Muslims can definitely teach us stuff, just prob not much about Jesus if he really claimed to be the Messiah.
Or should I ask Richard Dawkins how God created the universe?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:15 AM
CVShooter CVShooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 680
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeguns View Post
Just sayin, Muslims wouldn’t want to read a christians book on why Muhammad wasn’t really a prophet. Would you take advice from an anti-gunner opinion on gun control?
If we’re trying to learn math, it’s one thing. Religious or political history I’d check my sources.
Muslims can definitely teach us stuff, just prob not much about Jesus if he really claimed to be the Messiah.
Or should I ask Richard Dawkins how God created the universe?
Aslan isn't interested in whether Jesus was a prophet or the Son of God or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. These simply aren't academic questions. Who was the historical Jesus of Nazareth? That's an academic question and there is evidence from the historical record of his life and existence. How people may have viewed him is a historical question. But Jesus as a divine being isn't.

Fundamentalists are usually uninterested in contrary opinions, be they Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Any evidence, even spurious evidence, is enough to establish proof. But academics have to be. As an academic, it isn't enough to prove your thesis with evidence. You have to try to disprove your thesis, too. But you have to use evidence. Faith and belief isn't evidence -- it's just feelings. That's fine for your own life. But it won't get you anywhere in academic circles.

No, you wouldn't ask Dawkins how God created the universe. You'd ask him what his evidence is that it was something other than divine creation and, I'm sure, he'd have a crap load of evidence to support his ideas that it was clearly something other than an actual, literal, invisible bearded man in the sky who spoke the entire world into existence in a literal 6 days. In the meantime, you can learn a ton about astrophysics and biological evolution by listening to him or reading his books.

And, yes, I think we pro-gun advocates need to be in honest and sincere discussions with anti-gun advocates about gun control. I put my belief in self-governance above my belief in the 2A (though I feel that it's only possible with some version of the 2A). And how else than by respectful discussion & responsible behavior can I help influence the voting habits of my anti-gun friends and family?

So, yes, I'm a huge fan of being in constant dialog with people of differing views and even reading things that I may or may not buy into. It's like sparring vs hitting a punching bag on my own. Yes, I can get stronger hitting that bag in the garage. But until I match my skills against other, stronger opponents, I still don't know sh*# about fighting. Iron sharpens iron.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:22 AM
ilikeguns's Avatar
ilikeguns ilikeguns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 761
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
Aslan isn't interested in whether Jesus was a prophet or the Son of God or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. These simply aren't academic questions. Who was the historical Jesus of Nazareth? That's an academic question and there is evidence from the historical record of his life and existence. How people may have viewed him is a historical question. But Jesus as a divine being isn't.

Fundamentalists are usually uninterested in contrary opinions, be they Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Any evidence, even spurious evidence, is enough to establish proof. But academics have to be. As an academic, it isn't enough to prove your thesis with evidence. You have to try to disprove your thesis, too. But you have to use evidence. Faith and belief isn't evidence -- it's just feelings. That's fine for your own life. But it won't get you anywhere in academic circles.

No, you wouldn't ask Dawkins how God created the universe. You'd ask him what his evidence is that it was something other than divine creation and, I'm sure, he'd have a crap load of evidence to support his ideas that it was clearly something other than an actual, literal, invisible bearded man in the sky who spoke the entire world into existence in a literal 6 days. In the meantime, you can learn a ton about astrophysics and biological evolution by listening to him or reading his books.

And, yes, I think we pro-gun advocates need to be in honest and sincere discussions with anti-gun advocates about gun control. I put my belief in self-governance above my belief in the 2A (though I feel that it's only possible with some version of the 2A). And how else than by respectful discussion & responsible behavior can I help influence the voting habits of my anti-gun friends and family?

So, yes, I'm a huge fan of being in constant dialog with people of differing views and even reading things that I may or may not buy into. It's like sparring vs hitting a punching bag on my own. Yes, I can get stronger hitting that bag in the garage. But until I match my skills against other, stronger opponents, I still don't know sh*# about fighting. Iron sharpens iron.
Ok. Isn’t he assuming that Jesus was a zealot who incited his disciples to violence and an uprising against Rome? The academia and honesty comes from where? Even the earliest mentionings of followers of Jesus were of peaceful people who shared all their possessions with each other and believed in a kingdom not of this world. Non biblical sources support this.
But maybe the true motivation for Asland and you is an animosity for “the bearded man in the sky” as you put it...?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-07-2019, 1:45 PM
Blov Blov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Asian claimed to be an evangelical christian at one time. He went to valley Christian high in San Jose. I know a bit about him, my nephew was in his rock band pike back in the day. Reza has an axe to grind.

As far as learning about Christianity from non Christians? The quest for the historical Jesus (Schweitzer) has had its day. Asian isn't interested in dialogue but rather furthering his own narrative. Fair enough, but that doesn't mean I will pay much attention to him. And having read some of his scholarship I'm underwhelmed.

As for Jesus being a radical zealot? Yeah, I don't think so. He was radical but not like the zealots who were a political party. Jesus ushered in a new kingdom, but it was an upside down kingdom.

Anyone can talk about aspects of Christianity but only true followers of Christ can understand it on an ontological level.

Last edited by Blov; 09-07-2019 at 1:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-07-2019, 2:01 PM
Blov Blov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

"Fundamentalists are usually uninterested in contrary opinions, be they Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, etc. Any evidence, even spurious evidence, is enough to establish proof. But academics have to be. As an academic, it isn't enough to prove your thesis with evidence. You have to try to disprove your thesis, too. But you have to use evidence. Faith and belief isn't evidence -- it's just feelings. That's fine for your own life. But it won't get you anywhere in academic circles."

at its basic level Christianity is not academic. It does indeed have academic elements ie., Systematic theology, textual criticism etc. These are subservient to the core of Christianity which is relationship to the living God. If you are not a follower of the way our dialog will always be limited.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-07-2019, 2:19 PM
Blov Blov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVShooter View Post
To understand Jesus's movement as anything other than a political and social movement is to take Jesus completely out of his context of a first century Palestinian Jew under Roman occupation. Nobody alive at the time Jesus walked the earth would have understood him any other way. There may have been a spiritual component, yes. But those things weren't really separate back then. There was no separation of church & state -- it's all the same. There was no separation between temple sacrifice and political rule from a foreign, pagan empire. It's all interconnected and part of the same issue. An individual's obligations to YHWH were connected to the community and its religious, political and social practices. To tease out just the spiritual component is to Hellenize Christianity and make it more palatable to the (mostly pagan) culture at-large. No first century Palestinian Jew would have thought of the spiritual as somehow separate from the political and social.

The Hellenized Jews may have. Paul, for example, separated them. The Gnostics/Docetics would have. Essenes, maybe. Those in Asia-minor, Alexandria, etc. -- they had much more of the Hellenistic perspective. But a Jew from Nazareth challenging the authorities outright? Nope. Jesus was very traditional in that sense.

Indeed, this is why he was crucified. To be a Messiah is sedition against Rome and the Roman order (puppet leaders in office: Herod, Pilate, Sadducees, etc.). There is no other way he could have been understood and he seems to make his case pretty clear in the gospels.

This is partly why he was rejected as a Messiah by the Jews. He was inviting trouble and they needed to distance themselves from him before he rocked the boat too much. They didn't need the temple to get destroyed again or otherwise bring the hammer of Rome down upon them even more. Better to let one man die than see legions of Roman soldiers marching toward Jerusalem, leveling everything in their path. In fact, it wasn't long after Jesus was executed that Rome grew tired of all these Messiahs challenging them and did exactly that.

Personally, as a Christian at the time, I recall all this sinking in one night while on the banks of Kinneret (Galilee) back in the late 90s. It hit me that if I had been born a first century Jew & heard about this Jesus of Nazareth guy, I would have had the same feelings as they did -- crucify him! Let him die and save the people from ruin. As a Christian, that was a bitter pill to swallow.

That is not to say that Jesus was not a spiritual leader (pardon the double negative). And who he is to you or what meaning his life & death gives you is for you to decide. Parts of his life and ministry are quite inspiring, to say the least.
I tend to think you got It backwards. The people wanted a warrior messiah and when it became apparent that Jesus was not they turned on him. I do agree With you on the over hellenization of a lot of scholarship. I believe much of the re looking at the gospel of John has been beneficial. Of course the release of the dead sea scrolls has been enlightening.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-07-2019, 2:30 PM
ilikeguns's Avatar
ilikeguns ilikeguns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 761
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Just watched the video. That’s the lamest bunch of facts ever. The news flash is really that he was not white or black or from China but he was Jewish? That apart from the gospels we know that he was arrested for preaching about the kingdom of God? That we know a whole lot about Rome and the land he was in at that time? I can’t believe this guy has made that much money on this book, which says nothing new about anything other than his running commentary which is not steeped in science but opinionated observation. This was dumb
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-07-2019, 3:15 PM
Blov Blov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeguns View Post
Just watched the video. That’s the lamest bunch of facts ever. The news flash is really that he was not white or black or from China but he was Jewish? That apart from the gospels we know that he was arrested for preaching about the kingdom of God? That we know a whole lot about Rome and the land he was in at that time? I can’t believe this guy has made that much money on this book, which says nothing new about anything other than his running commentary which is not steeped in science but opinionated observation. This was dumb
Yep, I agree. Really shoddy scholarship. Just looked at it again. He really isn't saying anything new. I find it interesting how he boils down what we know about Jesus. Basically he has to reject the rest of scripture, which also isn't unusual. With his understanding of Jesus, in the historical sense, he is almost unknowable. Then what have you? He distills him to what 1st century Judaism was or what he thinks it was. Talk about cultural determinism.

Last edited by Blov; 09-07-2019 at 3:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:15 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.