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  #41  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:45 AM
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A well placed .22 is better than a dozen 10mm flesh wounds
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  #42  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:02 AM
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Fact is in a self defense / home invasion situation your facing more likely 3 targets.
so you have to have hi-cap mags, and the more the better, which favors the 9mm.
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  #43  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:20 AM
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Good presentation on GSWs by an ER anesthesiologist. They all perform similarly.

https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

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  #44  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by beerman View Post
In the example video..A 12 ga would have been ideal. Hard to approach without a knee... As far as 9 vs 40 vs 45...After a decade of keeping a 9mm Sig in my nightstand...I switched to a P220....with an extra mag.
I did argue shooting the knife wielding subjectís knee could have saved his life, but LE departmentís policy is more than likely against that. He was given multiple lawful instructions and he kept moving towards the officer. Weíre too much in the PC world. Iím sure H. F. Callahan figures the boy is having a really bad time at the moment and is not thinking rational. A bit of pain and immobilization would make him less dangerous to others. Of course I was told by friends Iím putting otherís in danger, so I revert to my 40 S&W as the best compromise.
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  #45  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Harry Ono View Post
Fact is in a self defense / home invasion situation your facing more likely 3 targets.
so you have to have hi-cap mags, and the more the better, which favors the 9mm.
If one did not act during MAGAzine week, they are limited to 10 rounds. My 1911 has 10 round mags.

230=115+115
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  #46  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by castgold View Post
Good presentation on GSWs by an ER anesthesiologist. They all perform similarly.

https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk
Good video, but there's no such thing as an "ER anesthesiologist." They don't even give pain meds in ER trauma resuscitations, let alone anesthesia. He's talking about surgery (operating room). And if they call the code in the ER, the patient never makes it to an operating room (so maybe some survivorship bias?).

That doc also says "a larger diameter bullet, larger caliber, causes more injury," when comparing a 308 and a 556. Well, no, it's the FPS and corresponding energy of a rifle bullet that matters (obviously a 223 will do more damage than the larger diameter 9mm) because the velocity is squared in e = mv≤.

If you've ever seen a conscious person getting chest tubes installed without pain meds, you'll never forget it. The good news is, most patients don't remember it.

Disclosure: I worked in a level 1 trauma center in college. And I've seen an x-ray of a 9mm FMJ dead center in someone's brain. So yeah, a single 9mm can incapacitate you. Shot placement!
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  #47  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:47 PM
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Disclosure: I worked in a level 1 trauma center. And I've seen an x-ray of a 9mm FMJ dead center in someone's brain. So yeah, a single 9mm can incapacitate you. Shot placement!
MP5 9mm SMG at close range:




( http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009...or_murder.html )





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  #48  
Old 07-09-2019, 1:21 PM
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Hmm, a caliber war.

Never seen one of these before.
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  #49  
Old 07-09-2019, 1:31 PM
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Iím not claiming expert status on this, and especially as Iím not a lawyer, but it seems to me the failure happens at around :40-45 into video.

The officer does a good job initially in shooting and dropping the attacker. And when he shot, the individual was attacking. Completely justified shoot. Period.

Now what it appears to me is that once the assailant is down, this is where things go south. The officer seems to lower his gun and approach. Or at some point they let their guard down. I get it. They canít just keep shooting once heís down, they need to arrest. And at that moment, briefly, they werenít in imminent danger. But why the rush? Are they obligated to give immediate aid?

They should have maintained safe distance and kept guns drawn. Because when the perp rushed the officer a second time, he was unprepared to respond with fire. And the other officers involved werenít in position to shoot either.

Seems to me an officerís life was threatened due to tactics, not caliber. Whatever happened, the initial salvo dropped the perp. Canít really see how many shots hit, nor where they hit. However, it seems to me that the caliber worked to the degree it should have. What didnít work was the officerís responses after that.

I guess as cops they canít just GTFO and call the cops. But why canít they just withdraw several yards, make ready, stay drawn, and wait a minute. Had they done that, once the perp got up and charged, it wouldíve been a different story. Unless thereís some legal obligation they had to perform that Iím unaware of?




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  #50  
Old 07-09-2019, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by code_blue View Post
Wait... you mean you folks don't throw on your full kit (plate carrier, warbelt, etc..), safety equipment (eye/electronic ear pro), and tricked out rifle/pistol combo before running out to see what's going.
Wait, You mean my pajamas? What do you guys sleep in?
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  #51  
Old 07-09-2019, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Iím not claiming expert status on this, and especially as Iím not a lawyer, but it seems to me the failure happens at around :40-45 into video.

The officer does a good job initially in shooting and dropping the attacker. And when he shot, the individual was attacking. Completely justified shoot. Period.

Now what it appears to me is that once the assailant is down, this is where things go south. The officer seems to lower his gun and approach. Or at some point they let their guard down. I get it. They canít just keep shooting once heís down, they need to arrest. And at that moment, briefly, they werenít in imminent danger. But why the rush? Are they obligated to give immediate aid?

They should have maintained safe distance and kept guns drawn. Because when the perp rushed the officer a second time, he was unprepared to respond with fire. And the other officers involved werenít in position to shoot either.

Seems to me an officerís life was threatened due to tactics, not caliber. Whatever happened, the initial salvo dropped the perp. Canít really see how many shots hit, nor where they hit. However, it seems to me that the caliber worked to the degree it should have. What didnít work was the officerís responses after that.

I guess as cops they canít just GTFO and call the cops. But why canít they just withdraw several yards, make ready, stay drawn, and wait a minute. Had they done that, once the perp got up and charged, it wouldíve been a different story. Unless thereís some legal obligation they had to perform that Iím unaware of?




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Yes, itís the WTF moment that breaks the OODA loop. The officers assumed the subject is down and will comply as they see him experiencing great pain. They did not expect the subject to stand up and start attacking them again, they were in the WTF moment with their guards down. Fortunately the subject dropped his knife, but heís now going hands on with nothing to lose. The officer still in the WTF moment failed to maintain distance, nor deploy non lethal weapons or self defense. At least he realized that the subject is now after his gun and trying to maintain possession of it. Kudos on the officer dealing the fatal shots without hitting his fellow officer.
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  #52  
Old 07-09-2019, 4:06 PM
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What happened to the Philippine Insurrection argument? Or how we won 2 world wars with just the 45 acp? Made rifles obsolete. Or how a million times more BGs were put down with the 9mm?

I pick the 10mm, doesn't have all those bad connotations.

Last edited by cantdance; 07-09-2019 at 4:14 PM..
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  #53  
Old 07-09-2019, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
MP5 9mm SMG at close range:




( http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009...or_murder.html )





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I'm guessing not an FMJ since I'll bet cops carry HP's, and maybe not straight-on shot? But yeah, we'll put this one in the making-the-case-for-the-10mm column.

Hardass forehead, like a pitbull, that guy.
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  #54  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:49 PM
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Wear whatever underwear you like (or none), but don't start a thread on it.
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  #55  
Old 07-10-2019, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato View Post
A well placed .22 is better than a dozen 10mm flesh wounds
A well placed beer bottle to the head is better then a dozen .22 flesh wounds.

All shot placements being equal Iíll take the 10mm.
All shot placements not being equal Iíll still take the 10mm.
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  #56  
Old 07-10-2019, 2:41 AM
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Shot multiple times and still managed to grapple the cop. That's insane.
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  #57  
Old 07-10-2019, 3:52 PM
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Shot multiple times and still managed to grapple the cop. That's insane.
If the CNS or major supporting structure isnít hit a very determined foe can do lots of harm before succumbing to injuries.
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  #58  
Old 07-11-2019, 6:50 AM
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Default Friends Arguing 45 vs 40 vs 9mm; Revolver vs Auto.

As a civilian I am perfectly fine with just having a 5 shot revolver. My job is to get away from trouble.

If my job is to run towards trouble, I would carry a Glock 20 if Iím not allowed to carry a carbine or shotgun.

Of course I also lead a boring lifestyle with no night life in places where inebriated people or scum congregate.


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  #59  
Old 07-11-2019, 7:41 AM
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As a civilian I am perfectly fine with just having a 5 shot revolver. My job is to get away from trouble.

If my job is to run towards trouble, I would carry a Glock 20 if I’m not allowed to carry a carbine or shotgun.

Of course I also lead a boring lifestyle with no night life in places where inebriated people or scum congregate.


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Nowadays you’d be surprised what you’ll encounter in your nice quiet neighborhood. People smoking synthetic drugs are found wandering around talking a storm, but no Bluetooth set in their ear. Then you have the swimmers like there’s a swimming pool on the street. The worst ones are the super villains or zombies.

Not just druggies, but home invaders target nice quiet homes.
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  #60  
Old 07-11-2019, 7:55 AM
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Nowadays you’d be surprised what you’ll encounter in your nice quiet neighborhood. People smoking synthetic drugs are found wandering around talking a storm, but no Bluetooth set in their ear. Then you have the swimmers like there’s a swimming pool on the street. The worst ones are the super villains or zombies.

Not just druggies, but home invaders target nice quiet homes.
Well home invasions are different. And like most CGNers I carry at home and have access to long guns for that. But I can't say we've had those here in Murrieta. You'll see young, white women running alone here late in the night or at dawn. Although we did have our first murder/homicide in like 3-4 years last week.

The druggies and homeless all go to Temecula near their mall
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Old 07-11-2019, 7:57 AM
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As a civilian I am perfectly fine with just having a 5 shot revolver. My job is to get away from trouble.
+1
I work very hard to keep myself from any place/situation/interaction that could go south.
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Old 07-11-2019, 8:37 AM
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Well home invasions are different. And like most CGNers I carry at home and have access to long guns for that. But I can't say we've had those here in Murrieta. You'll see young, white women running alone here late in the night or at dawn. Although we did have our first murder/homicide in like 3-4 years last week.

The druggies and homeless all go to Temecula near their mall
Back in the days my neck of the woods was so quiet. Hardly hear any emergency vehicles, if there was one it was an ambulance and/or fire truck. There were lots of retirees and the neighborhood was very quiet. Then it happened, a military base nearby closed down giving all those housing to the state/city, which in turn made most of them into affordable housing. There goes the city... well itís way on the other side of town, but after a few decades itís all going to caca. The car burglars, package/mail thieves usually hit the nicest subdivisions around here.

This kind of things happen on the old side of town, but itís creeping into the quiet places. This one happened last month.

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  #63  
Old 07-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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Back in the days my neck of the woods was so quiet. Hardly hear any emergency vehicles, if there was one it was an ambulance and/or fire truck. There were lots of retirees and the neighborhood was very quiet. Then it happened, a military base nearby closed down giving all those housing to the state/city, which in turn made most of them into affordable housing. There goes the city... well itís way on the other side of town, but after a few decades itís all going to caca. The car burglars, package/mail thieves usually hit the nicest subdivisions around here.



This kind of things happen on the old side of town, but itís creeping into the quiet places. This one happened last month.





Itís Vallejo. I lived in Benicia and worked in Vallejo almost 30 years ago. Wasnít a good place back then. Of course I moved there after living in San Pablo for several months. So I guess Vallejo seemed quiet.

However, the store I worked in at the time had plenty of shoplifting. Constant problem. Even back then, V-town was a bad place.


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  #64  
Old 07-11-2019, 2:30 PM
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Itís Vallejo. I lived in Benicia and worked in Vallejo almost 30 years ago. Wasnít a good place back then. Of course I moved there after living in San Pablo for several months. So I guess Vallejo seemed quiet.

However, the store I worked in at the time had plenty of shoplifting. Constant problem. Even back then, V-town was a bad place.


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You will probably find less of those type of problems at the western end of HWY 37 towns/cities.
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Old 07-11-2019, 7:25 PM
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These posts always remind me of how few Calgunners are hunters. Absent a CNS hit, wounds are rarely instantaneously fatal.
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  #66  
Old 07-12-2019, 1:46 PM
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These posts always remind me of how few Calgunners are hunters. Absent a CNS hit, wounds are rarely instantaneously fatal.
I don't think a wound needs to be instantly fatal to be part of the stopping power equation.
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Old 07-12-2019, 2:08 PM
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who cares, this argument was old in 1999
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  #68  
Old 07-12-2019, 3:58 PM
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Not arguing just my subjective preference, and I don't have a CCW so my concerns are informed only by my specific HD constraints.

If capacity is limited I'll go with bigger.

If I'm limited to ball ammo I prefer bigger projectiles, especially if capacity is limited to 10 or less.

Recreation, 9mm and 22lr are what I shoot the most.
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Old 07-12-2019, 4:18 PM
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Pause...I need some more popcorn.
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:04 AM
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I don't think a wound needs to be instantly fatal to be part of the stopping power equation.
Depends how determined your opponent is. For someone running on pure hate, rage, and no fear of death the only non fatal shots that will slow down and possibly stop a very determined foe is to damage bones supporting upright motion.
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Old 07-13-2019, 2:26 AM
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Bigger is better.

45ACP
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  #72  
Old 07-13-2019, 7:14 AM
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Welcome to Calfudds where if you carry the same caliber on your hip as the United States Military does you’re a nancy who sits down to pee.
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  #73  
Old 07-13-2019, 7:16 AM
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I don't think a wound needs to be instantly fatal to be part of the stopping power equation.

Agree.....depends. Shoot me in the shoulder with a .22 and Iím leaving.

A 9mm to my shin bone? Take my money, please


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  #74  
Old 07-13-2019, 8:16 AM
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There used to be online videos of the actual news footage, but not anymore. They showed several cult members charging into government personnel armed with M16s and a few M14s. One footage clearly showed the cult member on his kamikaze run soaking up rounds in his torso, but kept coming. A round hit his leg near the knee area making him stumble to the ground resulting in more fatal follow up shots. These are not handgun rounds hitting very determined aggressors.

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