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  #281  
Old 06-25-2019, 1:17 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdam View Post
That sucks since the purchase was legally made prior to the law enactment.
I know it’s no comfort, but, the Law was enacted on Jan 1, 2017 through SB 1235 (Stats. 2016, Ch. 55, Sec. 12). This provision was included with an operational date of Jul 1, 2019.

Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with when you purchased the ammo. It controls the final sale or transfer to you by an ammo vendor.
Quote:
30352.
(a) Commencing July 1, 2019, an ammunition vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Department of Justice.[...]
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  #282  
Old 06-25-2019, 3:50 PM
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My valid DL has my PO Box address. My vehicle registration has both my PO Box (for mailing), and my Residence address.

The AFS, I am fairly certain, shows my residence address, as input during DROS.

The flow chart from CRPA
says "Does your California Driver License or ID match your AFS Record?"

Apparently, mine does not.

Questions:

Will I have to go through the Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check procedure w/ the $19 fee?

or

If I show both my DL and registration, will I be OK for the point of sale BG check.

Color me...confused.

Any clarification will greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-P
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  #283  
Old 06-25-2019, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston-CLB View Post
My valid DL has my PO Box address. My vehicle registration has both my PO Box (for mailing), and my Residence address.

The AFS, I am fairly certain, shows my residence address, as input during DROS.

The flow chart from CRPA
says "Does your California Driver License or ID match your AFS Record?"

Apparently, mine does not.

Questions:

Will I have to go through the Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check procedure w/ the $19 fee?

or

If I show both my DL and registration, will I be OK for the point of sale BG check.

Color me...confused.

Any clarification will greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-P

I'm wondering the same thing. I bet %40-%50 of the gun owning population don't have a drivers licenses with their current address matching in AFS .. I haven't seen anything that indicates you can use documents other than a drivers license, so it seems to me the $19 applies.

Last edited by abinsinia; 06-25-2019 at 7:39 PM..
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  #284  
Old 06-25-2019, 6:57 PM
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As a kind of aside, CA has long maintained what they have is not 'registration'; that, of course, is parsing the language quite finely. Existing AFS data ties individuals, physical descriptions, ID numbers and addresses to guns with makes, models, calibers and serial numbers.

But this ammo law adds some things directly, and enables some others.

For example, now, to buy ammo one must (generally) have a current address on file with the State, in its gun database, and matching ID - that's one of the attributes of 'real registration'.

Many others have worried about matching gun calibers to ammo before allowing the ammo sale, and while that isn't here yet, it was attempted.

Lots of bad things are possible; I do not look forward happily to the next part of the Legislative session.
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  #285  
Old 06-25-2019, 7:39 PM
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Default DOJ Approved Regulations for Change of AFS Ientity Info

I posted this before as pending....

DOJ submitted additional regulations separately to allow changes to AFS information online.

OAG has approved them.

This may be helpful.....
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  #286  
Old 06-25-2019, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abinsinia View Post
I'm wondering the same thing. I bet %40-%50 of the gun owning population don't have a drivers licenses with their current address matching in AFS .. I haven't seen anything that indicates you can use documents other than a drivers license, so it seems to me the $19 applies.
Same here, unfortunately, which is why I asked the CG brain trust.

I guess the only thing I can do is take my DL and vehicle registration to the store and see if they will accept it. I buy most of my ammo from Walmart and Big-5.

What a PITA this is!
-P
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  #287  
Old 06-26-2019, 9:07 AM
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I was at my local Walmart last night and they posted that they are going to suspend all ammo sales between July 1st and July 11th, resuming on the 12th.

Just curious if Walmart is doing this statewide.

Also the ammo shelves were picked pretty clean about 75% gone.
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  #288  
Old 06-27-2019, 7:39 PM
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I am thinking about waiting at least until after the 15th before I try to purchase ammunition.

It will be interesting to see how AFS works (or doesn't) to match records. Based on the Michel and Associates webinar, there will need to be an exact match, with abbreviations being thrown out and you have to pay the $19 fee. Many of my DROS records have my street address abbreviated with Avenue being listed as Ave. My BBAW registration confirmation document has the street address spelled out in its entirety, including Avenue.

The way I see it, I have a 50% chance of a match with the Ave. abbreviation between my AFS file and my DMV vehicle registration (my DL has a P.O. Box for the address). IF CA-DoJ decided to revise AFS to conform to their full spelling of my address (e.g. Ave was changed to Avenue), I am screwed and have to pay the $19 fee and wait 1 day less than forever.

So glad I stocked up ahead of the 7/1 deadline.

Edit: Thinking about this further, if I have to pay the $19 fee each time I purchase ammunition due to abbreviated street address causing a reject, I will probably go ahead and file the applications for COE and FFL03.

Last edited by aBrowningfan; 06-28-2019 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: See Edit: above
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  #289  
Old 06-27-2019, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Preston-CLB View Post
Same here, unfortunately, which is why I asked the CG brain trust.

I guess the only thing I can do is take my DL and vehicle registration to the store and see if they will accept it. I buy most of my ammo from Walmart and Big-5.

What a PITA this is!
-P
More like a clusterf**k
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  #290  
Old 06-28-2019, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BigE65 View Post
I was at my local Walmart last night and they posted that they are going to suspend all ammo sales between July 1st and July 11th, resuming on the 12th.

Just curious if Walmart is doing this statewide.

Also the ammo shelves were picked pretty clean about 75% gone.
FWIW I just stopped in the Sim Valley WM and the shelves were full. They also had the sign saying ammo sales not allowed 7/1-11 and the counter guy said they need to get the "system" in and working and employee training for it during that period.

My $.02 is the 11 days of transition is to get the new system in and working vs a part of the new law but I defer to Librarian and details either already known or pending as to "why" the 11 day hiatus.

I doubt any selling location will veer from whatever steps are needed to get the system to say "approved" using a buyers DL. Meaning bringing in various other forms of ID, proof of residency, etc. will mean anything to the seller. They are just complying with the new laws and will follow whatever the steps are in doing so. Basically using only a DL to scan or enter DL # manually into whatever "device" it takes to communicate with Big Brother...

Yeah it is likely to be a major cluster F in rolling this out
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  #291  
Old 06-28-2019, 9:26 AM
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If the store sells firearms, then they have a DES access in place to DROS the purchases. This will be used for ammunition clearance, also.

If the store only sells ammunition, up to this point, they didn’t need the DES access. So, Walmart is making an investment in hardware and employee training to continue to provide ammunition to Californians at the retail level.

But, they have to get the system in place, debug it and train staff.

Confusion and Clustering will happen, but at least they’re making the effort.
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  #292  
Old 06-28-2019, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston-CLB View Post
My valid DL has my PO Box address. My vehicle registration has both my PO Box (for mailing), and my Residence address.

The AFS, I am fairly certain, shows my residence address, as input during DROS.

The flow chart from CRPA
says "Does your California Driver License or ID match your AFS Record?"

Apparently, mine does not.

Questions:

Will I have to go through the Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check procedure w/ the $19 fee?

or

If I show both my DL and registration, will I be OK for the point of sale BG check.

Color me...confused.

Any clarification will greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-P


Licensed Ammo Vendor here.
Veh. Reg is not an approved form of ID for address verification. If your info doesn’t match, you won’t be approved for the transaction. No sale.
If you have a firearm that isn’t registered with the state, and you don’t mind them knowing you own it (like a .22 you got from your dad), fill out a reg form with the current info, check for $19 and send it to the state.
https://www.oag.ca.gov/sites/all/fil...rms/volreg.pdf
There is suppose to be a form for “correcting” the info Ca has on file for you, but I couldn’t locate it.
Everything I’ve read about the basic check, is it’s a one transaction item, and won’t update the info the state has for purchases in the future.
I have a friend who lives in an area where they don’t deliver mail to the houses. He will probably have to go through the COE process to purchase ammo.
I am really hoping a federal judge puts a stay in place until this can go to federal court. This system is denying access to way to many people.
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  #293  
Old 06-28-2019, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGC_RangeManager View Post
Licensed Ammo Vendor here.
Veh. Reg is not an approved form of ID for address verification. If your info doesn’t match, you won’t be approved for the transaction. No sale.
If you have a firearm that isn’t registered with the state, and you don’t mind them knowing you own it (like a .22 you got from your dad), fill out a reg form with the current info, check for $19 and send it to the state.
https://www.oag.ca.gov/sites/all/fil...rms/volreg.pdf
There is suppose to be a form for “correcting” the info Ca has on file for you, but I couldn’t locate it.
Everything I’ve read about the basic check, is it’s a one transaction item, and won’t update the info the state has for purchases in the future.
I have a friend who lives in an area where they don’t deliver mail to the houses. He will probably have to go through the COE process to purchase ammo.
I am really hoping a federal judge puts a stay in place until this can go to federal court. This system is denying access to way to many people.
The Rhode v. Becerra litigation would seem to be a perfect forum to request a preliminary injunction. Don't know why one hasn't been requested, though.
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  #294  
Old 06-28-2019, 8:00 PM
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The DOJ put out a reference guide for ammo transactions this afternoon to vendors.
In addition to the info from your CDL/ID, the buyer must provide a phone number.
The “transaction and ammunition information” fields were surprising to me. Luckily only the manufacturer, condition, caliber, and quantity (rounds) are the only fields that are mandatory. The optional fields include bullet type, bullet weight, usage type (not sure what that means. There’s a drop down menu I can’t see yet), casing, primer type, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, and cost/round.
The seller has to print out the form and both the seller and buyer have to sign the form. The seller has to retain the form, on site, for 5 years, subject to inspection by DOJ/LE.




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  #295  
Old 06-28-2019, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGC_RangeManager View Post
The DOJ put out a reference guide for ammo transactions this afternoon to vendors.
In addition to the info from your CDL/ID, the buyer must provide a phone number.
The “transaction and ammunition information” fields were surprising to me. Luckily only the manufacturer, condition, caliber, and quantity (rounds) are the only fields that are mandatory. The optional fields include bullet type, bullet weight, usage type (not sure what that means. There’s a drop down menu I can’t see yet), casing, primer type, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, and cost/round.
The seller has to print out the form and both the seller and buyer have to sign the form. The seller has to retain the form, on site, for 5 years, subject to inspection by DOJ/LE.
Ugh. Nothing like having to displace warehouse floor space for filing cabinets when the displaced floor space could go to pallets of ammunition (or other things that could be sold to customers). Not to mention the time spent filling out the stupid form that has to be filed on site for 5 years.
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  #296  
Old 06-28-2019, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
There is suppose to be a form for “correcting” the info Ca has on file for you, but I couldn’t locate it.
Update your AFS records is now on the CFARs website.

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Last edited by SoCalSammy; 06-28-2019 at 8:23 PM..
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  #297  
Old 06-28-2019, 9:42 PM
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Thanks, WCGC. I downloaded the VolReg pdf.

Edit 6/29:

My firearms are already in the system, having been purchased in 2018 and '19.

OK, guys, looking at the CRPA flow chart; at the very bottom-right it says--

Quote:
"Use the "Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check (Single Transaction or Purchase) Option"
Is this "Basic Check" done at the store (say Walmart) or a form I fill out and pay the $19, or...???

Color me, still confused.

As aBrowning fan said above, "More like a clusterf**k"

And a well-developed one, at that!
-P
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Last edited by Preston-CLB; 06-29-2019 at 7:09 AM..
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  #298  
Old 06-29-2019, 7:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Preston-CLB View Post
OK, guys, looking at the CRPA flow chart; at the very bottom-right it says--

Is this "Basic Check" done at the store (say Walmart) or a form I fill out and pay the $19, or...???
The background checks are all done at the store...ammunition vendor/point of service. They will use the DES (DROS) System to enter the information.

See pages 3/4 of the approved regs.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 06-29-2019 at 7:36 AM..
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  #299  
Old 06-29-2019, 8:33 AM
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Thanks, sir!

According to the regs, it says...

Quote:
(1) An approved Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check can only be used for one ammunition purchase or transfer, and the approval expires 30 calendar days from when it is issued.
Say that one gets approved on July 15, buys ammo on the 20th of July, and will not need to buy more until (say) August 20th.

Does this mean one would have to go through the Basic Check again, or will one now be in the 'system' and can use the 'Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check (AFS Match)'?

This is confusing as f***.
-p
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  #300  
Old 06-29-2019, 9:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston-CLB View Post
Say that one gets approved on July 15, buys ammo on the 20th of July, and will not need to buy more until (say) August 20th.

Does this mean one would have to go through the Basic Check again, or will one now be in the 'system' and can use the 'Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check (AFS Match)'?

This is confusing as f***.
-p
Read a little further in the reg you quoted. It also says:
Quote:
(e) Upon the Department’s completion of a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check, the Department shall update the purchaser’s or transferee’s DES record.
But, that seems to mean the OAG will update the DES, transmitting the approval or denial to the vendor. It seems improbable that the information can be retained in AFS for future use, as it isn’t “entered” into the system. And there is nothing in the regulations stating that will happen.

Moreover, the statute establishing the AFS seems to require a firearm on file to establish a record.

So, one-time use, and it’s back to “Square 1”, and an additional $19 and wait.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 06-29-2019 at 10:13 AM..
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  #301  
Old 06-29-2019, 2:40 PM
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19bucks for basic check wait 10 days to get ammo and 1 buck thereafter. Is that correct? If you are not in system already.
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Old 06-29-2019, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
19bucks for basic check wait 10 days to get ammo and 1 buck thereafter. Is that correct? If you are not in system already.
See post above. There doesn't seem to be any ability to update AFS if you don't have an AFS entry....

[Note: I really want to be wrong on this one, but...]

From the DOJ Firearms Website:
Quote:

Effective July 1, 2019, persons seeking to purchase or transfer ammunition will have to undergo an eligibility check, and be approved by the Department, prior to the sale or transfer, except as otherwise specified.
Departmental approval shall occur electronically through a licensed ammunition vendor.

Pursuant to Penal Code sections 30352 and 30370, the Department will determine that a person is eligible to purchase or transfer ammunition if they meet one of the following requirements:
  • The person has a current Certificate of Eligibility issued by the Department.
  • The person’s information matches an entry in the Automated Firearms System (name, date of birth, current address, and driver license or other government identification) and does not fall within a class of persons who are prohibited from owning or possessing ammunition. The Department shall make this determination by cross-referencing the Prohibited Armed Persons file (also known as the Armed and Prohibited Persons System).
  • The person is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing ammunition. The Department determines eligibility based on a comprehensive review of its records (similar to a firearm eligibility check). Please note: this eligibility check requires a manual review of records by a Department analyst. As such, the Department may take longer to respond with a determination as to eligibility. Response times may take several days. Persons will have the ability to check the status of their eligibility check through the Ammunition Eligibility Check Status and Information page (available July 1, 2019).
  • The person was approved by the Department to receive a firearm from the ammunition vendor, pursuant to Penal Code section 28220, if that vendor is a licensed firearm dealer, and the ammunition is delivered to the person in the same transaction as the firearm. In this scenario, the dealer will use the approved firearm eligibility check as the approval to purchase ammunition, and will submit the ammunition purchase to the Department during the delivery of the firearm.
//////
Establishing a Record in the Automated Firearms System

The Automated Firearms System is a repository of firearm records maintained by the Department, as established by Penal Code section 11106.

The Automated Firearms System is populated by way of firearm purchases or transfers at a California licensed firearm dealer, registration of assault weapons (during specified registration periods), an individual’s report of firearm ownership to the Department, Carry Concealed Weapons Permit records, or records entered by law enforcement agencies.

To establish an Automated Firearms System record, you may take one of the following actions:
  • Record ownership of a firearm you possess, but were not previously required to report, by submitting a Firearm Ownership Report to the Department.
    If your last firearm purchase of a long gun was prior to January 1, 2014, there is a possibility you may not have a record in the Automated Firearms System despite having purchased or transferred your firearm through a firearms dealer. The Department was statutorily prohibited from retaining information regarding sales of rifles or shotguns prior to January 1, 2014. As a result, records of rifles and shotguns in the Automated Firearms System prior to January 1, 2014, are limited to assault weapon registrations (Pen. Code, § 30500, et seq.), voluntary reports of ownership, and other records entered by the Department and California law enforcement agencies.
  • You may submit the Firearm Ownership Report through the California Firearms Application Reporting System (CFARS). For more information regarding this process please visit the Firearms Reporting and Law Enforcement Gun Release Application page.
  • Record ownership through a purchase or transfer of a firearm from a licensed firearm dealer in California.
So, if you don't have an AFS record, you need to pay the $19 and sit on your hands. Getting a clearance to purchase doesn't establish a record in AFS, so, if you want to purchase ammo the day after your approval, you again have to submit an other $19 bucks.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 06-29-2019 at 3:29 PM..
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  #303  
Old 06-29-2019, 2:59 PM
edgerly779 edgerly779 is offline
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I am in the system so should be no problem for me.
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  #304  
Old 06-29-2019, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I am in the system so should be no problem for me.
Then, for you, it's a buck for every purchase, regardless of amount.

But, for the folks using the $19 option, the first buy doesn't get you into the $1 "club".
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  #305  
Old 06-29-2019, 5:02 PM
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Everyone listen to the CRPA Webinar?

Count down to FUBAR....
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  #306  
Old 06-29-2019, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FatCity67 View Post
Everyone listen to the CRPA Webinar?

Count down to FUBAR....
Not that I'm an advocate of this program, but if CRPA said it was going to be easy, we wouldn't give them money, eh?
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  #307  
Old 07-01-2019, 8:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Not that I'm an advocate of this program, but if CRPA said it was going to be easy, we wouldn't give them money, eh?
The Webinar lays everything out in a much easier to understand format than flipping thru threads and posts not to mention its done by some of the best Gun Lawyers in the State if not US

Last edited by FatCity67; 07-01-2019 at 8:22 AM..
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Old 07-01-2019, 9:20 AM
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The Webinar lays everything out in a much easier to understand format than flipping thru threads and posts not to mention its done by some of the best Gun Lawyers in the State if not US
Yup. I was on it live and have gone through their paperwork. So what?

The webinar said if your ID doesn’t exactly match the AFS, it will deny, including if the street designation wasn’t exact (“St” instead of “Street”, etc.). Then, you need the $19 check and jump through hoops to correct records.

And yet, today a vendor ran a check and found:
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Originally Posted by REH View Post
Just ran a Standard Ammunition Eligibility Check on myself. Changed the DR to Drive and abbreviated the city. Went through in two minutes. Also did a Basic Ammunition Eligibility Check still in progress status. Will report back on how long the $19.00 check takes
And the lawyers are very good, but they aren’t your lawyers, and none of what they presented is legal advice.
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Old 07-01-2019, 10:32 AM
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I'm not doing anything today and there's a Big 5 three blocks away. Think I'll go try to buy some ammo and see what happens. Should be interesting.
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Old 07-02-2019, 7:09 AM
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Always one of you in every bunch. LOL, carryon with your bad self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Yup. I was on it live and have gone through their paperwork. So what?

The webinar said if your ID doesn’t exactly match the AFS, it will deny, including if the street designation wasn’t exact (“St” instead of “Street”, etc.). Then, you need the $19 check and jump through hoops to correct records.

And yet, today a vendor ran a check and found:


And the lawyers are very good, but they aren’t your lawyers, and none of what they presented is legal advice.
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Old 07-02-2019, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by FatCity67 View Post
Always one of you in every bunch.
Yup, but I responded to you anyway so you wouldn’t feel lonely.

BTW: The guy who ran the check reported back on the $19 result:
Quote:
Originally Posted by REH View Post
The basic Ammunition Eligibility Check, the $19.00 one, was approved in 4 hours and is good for 30 days. The Standard check was approved in 2 min and is good for 18 hours
The major problem in this process is at the store when asked to verify the information, make sure the staff got the info right...it’s YOUR verification. The second time slog will be the vendor collecting and recording the ammunition information before completing the sale.

Best.
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Last edited by Dvrjon; 07-02-2019 at 8:24 AM..
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Old 07-02-2019, 4:35 PM
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Sorry if it's been asked before here, but how does the new rule affect someone (1) with a FFL03 and (2) COE? Can they still buy ammo online as before?
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Old 07-02-2019, 4:42 PM
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Sorry if it's been asked before here, but how does the new rule affect someone (1) with a FFL03 and (2) COE? Can they still buy ammo online as before?
Yes, nothing changes
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Old 07-02-2019, 4:53 PM
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Yes, nothing changes
Good luck finding someone willing to do so right now though. The places I used to use no longer ship direct.
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Old 07-02-2019, 6:17 PM
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Good luck finding someone willing to do so right now though. The places I used to use no longer ship direct.
Brownells will targetsportsusa will those are two that I know of and there are more, check the thread that list them.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1406001
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Old 07-02-2019, 6:24 PM
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The issue is things changed yesterday so a lot of places are not doing direct to CA any longer (either permanent or temporarily)
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Old 07-02-2019, 6:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkarmour View Post
Sorry if it's been asked before here, but how does the new rule affect someone (1) with a FFL03 and (2) COE? Can they still buy ammo online as before?
That's in the law, as quoted in the first post in the thread; note that ordering online from a CA vendor does NOT work, as CA ammo vendors must do some background check and cannot ship to individuals.
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Old 07-02-2019, 6:50 PM
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The issue is things changed yesterday so a lot of places are not doing direct to CA any longer (either permanent or temporarily)
Well aware of yesterday, some have bailed on us but many still remain. The exemption still applies period.
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Old 07-02-2019, 6:53 PM
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Well aware of yesterday, some have bailed on us but many still remain. The exemption still applies period.
Agreed. But what vendor's are shipping here right now using that exemption? The places I buy from are not.
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Old 07-02-2019, 7:20 PM
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Agreed. But what vendor's are shipping here right now using that exemption? The places I buy from are not.
Then, you’re not buying from them, yes?

Have you shared with them the fact that the out of state order exemption for FFL+COE hasn’t changed?

Target Sports delivered 10mm today; now, I have to go buy a gun.
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