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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
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#1
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New $400 Surefire BCG
Sorry, OBC (optimized bolt carrier). Pulled from Brownells.
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AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do. If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting? |
#3
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TTT.
To be truthful with you, there's a huge difference between low and top end firearms, some are cosmetic, some are performance. The top tier have closer tolerances, superior metal materials, coatings, and finishes. It is easy to discern the differences between them by sight, weight, sound when cycled, shot group, functionally, corrosion, like a 4x4's stability compared to a Prius. |
#4
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Respectfully disagree. Shot thousands of rounds of 223 using $65 bcgs from toolcraft. Never a problem. Wouldn't call them low quality.
If we're looking for evidence, I've seen none that justifies buying anything more expensive than toolcraft.
__________________
In case it wasn't obvious, nothing I write here should be interpreted as legal advice. |
#5
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AR-15s are a perfect example. There are companies selling stripped lowers for $150 when it’s the same exact product as what Anderson sells for $40. A lower is a lower as long as it’s mil spec and aluminum. Then there are companies selling $1,200 rifles that are the equivalent to what Aero Precision sells for $650. The specs are the same for both rifles. Some people know they are paying a luxury tax and are fine with it. But a lot of people don’t know any better and waste their money on a name. |
#6
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I’ll probably never buy anything other than a Toolcraft. They’re great quality for a low cost and they have a very good reputation.
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#7
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I'm not an average shooter, but anyway they make plinking AR's, and AR's that are battle worthy, the difference is reliability. I have, and have had, more mass produced assembly line rifles than I care to mention, all needed to be finished and tuned form the get go. That being, you get what you pay for, I didn't say they wouldn't kill, just like in Forage in Fire.
Last edited by tony270; 06-06-2019 at 4:30 PM.. |
#8
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#10
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Not defending the price but it doesn't sound like you guys understand the problems this BCG is addressing.
Wait, breaking news just coming in.... stand by..... yes..... "According to highly reliable sources I am being told that, well.... not every product is marketed to you." |
#11
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It's primarily an advantage on a carbine gas system 14.5" or 16" 5.56 barrel. Retiming the unlock actually causes functioning problems on longer gas systems especially if they are low dwell time setups with less than 5" of barrel beyond the gas port or larger caliber bores with higher expansion ratios.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. Last edited by ar15barrels; 05-15-2019 at 12:39 PM.. |
#12
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If it's not marketed to me, then who? Even if it does everything it says it does. Again, if you're buying this and putting it into a presumably higher end rifle with quality components, what am I gaining? |
#13
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#14
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I've got ~3-4000 rounds on a $89 Blitzkrieg Tactical nitrided BCG. I have literally zero, none, nada malfunctions of any kind on the rifle. Now I am not shooting suppressed or doing semi-auto mag dumps. But to me, this BCG is pure snake oil at $400 (really borderline obscene if you ask me). About the only thing I would ever get "extra" on a BCG is nitride, and really at the end of the day that is only for ease of cleaning. This thing is for the snooty / gullible "Well, maybe YOU will trust your life to something other than "the best", but not me!" crowd. |
#15
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What was briefly mention is that LMT has a similar product out now that address s many of the same issues as the surefire unit. Both companies make product that you are going to bet your life upon as opposed to a plinking AR. As both companies are producing product that is similar but from different development tracts it adds to the relevance of what they are trying to accomplish.
As these are specialized products they are meant for the 1-2% of the customer base and not the guy that buys tool raft and PSA. There are companies that build to mil spec/industry spec then there are others that build to a higher spec and those are the rifles and companies that appeal to folks that will buy a product such as this. |
#16
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It’s trivially easy to point out that Anderson isn’t the same, because of their short grip screw threading. Was that done for performance reasons, or cost cutting? What other changes were also made, and why? — Michael |
#18
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What about aero m4e1 lowers? I have a couple. For no other reason than just because I liked the threaded bolt catch pin, the threaded buffer tube pin hole, and the tension screw for the upper. They are good quality, and cheap, and a little more than just the run of the mill lower
__________________
"It is currently CA legal to modify a double-action revolver into a single-action revolver and modify a single-action revolver into a double-action revolver. CA DOJ BOF stance on modifying handguns only applies to dimensionally compliant bolt-action single-shot pistols and dimensionally compliant break-open single-shot pistols. ^It does not apply to revolvers, manually operated repeating pistols, and semi-auto pistols." ~~ Quiet |
#19
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This BCG was made largely to address issues with full auto suppressed fire. My skepticism is related to how much difference it would actually make. Particularly to someone without a suppressed M4. Plus, if you're buying an LMT (just an example), it already has a similar improvement, making the aftermarket BCG unnecessary. |
#21
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All of the "I have X thousand rounds though my X brand BCG without any problems" posts in this thread are indicative of people not understanding the target market of this BCG. |
#22
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Sure, I can’t speak for everyone else posting here. My comments were in response to tony270, not the bcg in the original post. His initial comments, while related, veered the discussion off its tracks a little bit.
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#23
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Honestly asking (since I fit the profile), what IS the target market? I probably know enough to be dangerous, but at least am willing to learn a bit. My knowledge of shooting suppressed ARs amounts to "I know it can take a lot of tweaking". I can concede that maybe this BCG is the cat's butt when it comes to suppressed, but at the same time, I would bet there are PLENTY of guys shooting suppressed ARs without a $400 BCG. But beyond shooting suppressed, who else NEEDS this $400 piece of milled unicorn horn? Or if not "needs", who can really benefit from it? |
#24
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https://youtu.be/uUJax7C3qW4?t=47 |
#25
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Beyond that, there is not a significant enough performance gain to justify the price. Notable to this discussion is that Surefire is a suppressor maker. It makes perfect sense to offer suppressor accessories such as the carrier being discussed.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#26
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Since I am super cynical and not rich by any means, I still see this as a "do you think we can add some stuff onto a BCG and sell it for $400?" ploy. I mean, can you make real tangible improvements to a BCG to make a rifle 'run better'? Sure, why not? Is that probably marginal improvement worth $400?! I guess that is up to you and your checkbook. So in the context of not running suppressed, I stand behind my "Back in my day we ran BCGs made out of melted down soup cans and bits of string! They exploded every 5th round AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!!!" stance. And like I said, I am sure plenty of folks are shooting suppressed AR's on a standard BCG (or at least one that isn't $400) just fine. |
#27
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I mean can't you apply that kind of cynical logic to everything with a price tag on it?
I've seen $4500 1911's that I think are a total waste of money. Why? Because what can I do with it that I can't do with my Glock? I know this is Calguns where people would sell their soul over an 11% discount on a Holosun green dot but complaining about the price of a product that doesn't pertain to you, is not marketed to you, and offers no benefits over a $60 BCG in your $500 AR with your unstaked castle nut is like complaining about the price of a $4500 1911. |
#29
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You can't buy happiness, but style is for sale, all day long.
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#31
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#33
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And how do you know they aren't already using them or testing them? |
#34
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Let's look at that $4500 1911. The cost in raw materials for that 1911 is probably about $50, which is probably an over-estimate if anything. Does the added cost of machining and precision fitting and what not equate to $4450? Well, you could say yes, in terms of it being "what the market will bear". But I would still feel absolutely justified in commenting something like "Look if you take your retail bought 1911 and sent it to a competent 1911 dedicated gunsmith it would probably come out on par with a $4500 1911 at half the price". The point is, the gun industry, and ESPECIALLY the AR15 ecosystem, is FILLED with high priced whiz-bang "solutions in search of a problem" gadgets that pertain to only about 1% of the user-base. And for the 1% that these gadgets pertain to, there are likely much cheaper ways of getting the same result. BUT, there will always be some run of the mill shooter who gladly pays the premium so they can look at their gun and think "Man, that thing is TOP OF THE LINE!" Meanwhile some guy a couple stations down is shooting on the exact same platform only their variant cost them 1/4 as much and is having a 100% identical user experience. I mean, that IS up to them. I ain't gonna lose any sleep over how someone spends their money. But I WILL always reserve my right to think it's silly. |
#35
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Then I reserve my right to say people like you are ridiculously silly.
Commenting on the price and function of something that clearly wasn't designed for you is silly. $400 isn't even a lot of money. Have a look in your safes everyone. In your garages. On your shelves. We all own something that someone else is going to think we overpaid for. But I digress. This is Calguns, where people will happily support companies with Anti-2a tendencies to save 11% on a chicom optics. Where they place saving a few dollars above their morals. |
#36
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I guess by that logic, the only allowable response to the OP's question: "AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do. If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting? " ... would be: "I am sorry, I cannot comment on your question as I have no direct experience with this BCG or LMT ARs. As such, despite my other experience with AR15s I am entirely unqualified to comment on what are essentially commodity components like BCGs." I'll try to remember that next time. |
#37
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There is certainly room for discussion.
I thought I made it pretty clear I was referring to the "why would anyone pay $400 for that when my $60 toolcraft is problem free for 4000 rounds" type comments. Those types of comments are USELESS to the discussion. But whatever. I will just laugh inside when people are losing their minds over the price of products they don't understand or weren't even designed for them in the first place. I've got a $3600 35x ATACR to mount in $180 scope rings today. I hope Calguns approves of my dollar to performance vector based on their experience with Primary Arms scopes. (nothing against primary arms) |
#38
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Not sure how people essentially saying "might be cool but probably not necessary and especially not at that price" takes you there. Near as I can tell, every component on the AR I built was made in the USA, including my crappy $60 (ahem, it was $89 actually) BCG. |
#39
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No, that's a commentary about how cheap gun owners in California are. Which is why they lose their minds over a $400 BCG. One that wasn't designed for your average AR. and one designed to address a very specific set of problems.
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#40
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j/k Looks nice. Congrats. |
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