New $400 Surefire BCG

[floogy]

Sorry, OBC (optimized bolt carrier). Pulled from Brownells.

Invented by Jim Sullivan, one of the original designers of the M16, the SureFire Optimized Bolt Carrier (OBC) is designed to improve the functionality of an M4/M16/AR variant weapon system during both unsuppressed and suppressed firing. This patented design makes numerous improvements to the standard Mil-Spec full-auto bolt carrier group which allows more time for reliable feeding of ammunition from the magazine, nearly eliminating bolt-over-base malfunctions. The OBC also delays unlocking of the bolt during the firing sequence, which allows expanding gases more time to exit the bore, in turn reducing back-pressure gases exiting the upper receiver group. Additionally, the neutrally balanced counterweight improves carrier and barrel extension lock-up, nearly eliminating bolt bounce. The OBC also reduces felt recoil, allowing for better tracking of sights and more control of the weapon when firing. Coated with an advanced anti-friction coating, the OBC resists friction during use and makes cleaning easy. For the ultimate in reliability, choose the SureFire OBC.

AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do.

If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting?

[tony270]

The coating and they have a patented design, be the first to let us know that it does what is claimed, you can't take it with you.

[tony270]

TTT.
To be truthful with you, there's a huge difference between low and top end firearms, some are cosmetic, some are performance. The top tier have closer tolerances, superior metal materials, coatings, and finishes. It is easy to discern the differences between them by sight, weight, sound when cycled, shot group, functionally, corrosion, like a 4x4's stability compared to a Prius.

[Califpatriot]

Respectfully disagree. Shot thousands of rounds of 223 using $65 bcgs from toolcraft. Never a problem. Wouldn't call them low quality.

If we're looking for evidence, I've seen none that justifies buying anything more expensive than toolcraft.

[oak18]

Originally Posted by tony270

TTT.
To be truthful with you, there's a huge difference between low and top end firearms, some are cosmetic, some are performance. The top tier have closer tolerances, superior metal materials, coatings, and finishes. It is easy to discern the differences between them by sight, weight, sound when cycled, shot group, functionally, corrosion, like a 4x4's stability compared to a Prius.

Unfortunately in the firearm world, it’s real easy for the average Joe to waste money on what they think is a high end firearm due to the price. There are plenty of firearm manufacturers out there that make $700 guns(not their cost to manufacture, what they should be sold for) and slap a $1,600 price on them.

AR-15s are a perfect example. There are companies selling stripped lowers for $150 when it’s the same exact product as what Anderson sells for $40. A lower is a lower as long as it’s mil spec and aluminum.

Then there are companies selling $1,200 rifles that are the equivalent to what Aero Precision sells for $650. The specs are the same for both rifles. Some people know they are paying a luxury tax and are fine with it. But a lot of people don’t know any better and waste their money on a name.

[oak18]

Originally Posted by Califpatriot

Respectfully disagree. Shot thousands of rounds of 223 using $65 bcgs from toolcraft. Never a problem. Wouldn't call them low quality.

If we're looking for evidence, I've seen none that justifies buying anything more expensive than toolcraft.

I’ll probably never buy anything other than a Toolcraft. They’re great quality for a low cost and they have a very good reputation.

[tony270]

I'm not an average shooter, but anyway they make plinking AR's, and AR's that are battle worthy, the difference is reliability. I have, and have had, more mass produced assembly line rifles than I care to mention, all needed to be finished and tuned form the get go. That being, you get what you pay for, I didn't say they wouldn't kill, just like in Forage in Fire.

[floogy]

Originally Posted by tony270

TTT.
To be truthful with you, there's a huge difference between low and top end firearms, some are cosmetic, some are performance. The top tier have closer tolerances, superior metal materials, coatings, and finishes. It is easy to discern the differences between them by sight, weight, sound when cycled, shot group, functionally, corrosion, like a 4x4's stability compared to a Prius.

That's why I mentioned an LMT. What more are you getting from this BCG than an LMT, or Toolcraft for that matter?

[deckhandmike]

I’d be willing to bet the surfire is less reliable than the average toolcraft. I’d put 20$ on the toolcraft in a torture test.

[tonyxcom]

Not defending the price but it doesn't sound like you guys understand the problems this BCG is addressing.

Wait, breaking news just coming in....

stand by.....

yes.....

"According to highly reliable sources I am being told that, well.... not every product is marketed to you."

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by floogy

Sorry, OBC (optimized bolt carrier). Pulled from Brownells.

AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do.

If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting?

LMT's enhanced carrier also has some of these same design changes, the most important one being the re-timing of the unlock cam.

It's primarily an advantage on a carbine gas system 14.5" or 16" 5.56 barrel.

Retiming the unlock actually causes functioning problems on longer gas systems especially if they are low dwell time setups with less than 5" of barrel beyond the gas port or larger caliber bores with higher expansion ratios.

[floogy]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Not defending the price but it doesn't sound like you guys understand the problems this BCG is addressing.

Wait, breaking news just coming in....

stand by.....

yes.....

"According to highly reliable sources I am being told that, well.... not every product is marketed to you."

I do, but I'm skeptical, like any rational person should be. Like I said, to what degree does it do what it says it does. Also, as Randall mentioned, some of the features are already on other systems.

If it's not marketed to me, then who? Even if it does everything it says it does. Again, if you're buying this and putting it into a presumably higher end rifle with quality components, what am I gaining?

[oak18]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Not defending the price but it doesn't sound like you guys understand the problems this BCG is addressing.

Wait, breaking news just coming in....

stand by.....

yes.....

"According to highly reliable sources I am being told that, well.... not every product is marketed to you."

It’s quite obvious what problem this BCG is addressing. It says there right in the first post. The discussion that resulted was basically high price=high quality/ low price=low quality.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by floogy

Sorry, OBC (optimized bolt carrier). Pulled from Brownells.

AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do.

If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting?

I've got ~3-4000 rounds on a $89 Blitzkrieg Tactical nitrided BCG. I have literally zero, none, nada malfunctions of any kind on the rifle.

Now I am not shooting suppressed or doing semi-auto mag dumps. But to me, this BCG is pure snake oil at $400 (really borderline obscene if you ask me).

About the only thing I would ever get "extra" on a BCG is nitride, and really at the end of the day that is only for ease of cleaning.

This thing is for the snooty / gullible "Well, maybe YOU will trust your life to something other than "the best", but not me!" crowd.

[damon1272]

What was briefly mention is that LMT has a similar product out now that address s many of the same issues as the surefire unit. Both companies make product that you are going to bet your life upon as opposed to a plinking AR. As both companies are producing product that is similar but from different development tracts it adds to the relevance of what they are trying to accomplish.
As these are specialized products they are meant for the 1-2% of the customer base and not the guy that buys tool raft and PSA.
There are companies that build to mil spec/industry spec then there are others that build to a higher spec and those are the rifles and companies that appeal to folks that will buy a product such as this.

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by oak18

AR-15s are a perfect example. There are companies selling stripped lowers for $150 when it’s the same exact product as what Anderson sells for $40. A lower is a lower as long as it’s mil spec and aluminum.

That is a perfect example, though perhaps for a different point.

It’s trivially easy to point out that Anderson isn’t the same, because of their short grip screw threading. Was that done for performance reasons, or cost cutting? What other changes were also made, and why?

— Michael

[deckhandmike]

Well if it’s as reliable as the gun lights we will have some real problems.

[jimbo74]

What about aero m4e1 lowers? I have a couple. For no other reason than just because I liked the threaded bolt catch pin, the threaded buffer tube pin hole, and the tension screw for the upper. They are good quality, and cheap, and a little more than just the run of the mill lower

[floogy]

Originally Posted by damon1272

What was briefly mention is that LMT has a similar product out now that address s many of the same issues as the surefire unit. Both companies make product that you are going to bet your life upon as opposed to a plinking AR. As both companies are producing product that is similar but from different development tracts it adds to the relevance of what they are trying to accomplish.
As these are specialized products they are meant for the 1-2% of the customer base and not the guy that buys tool raft and PSA.
There are companies that build to mil spec/industry spec then there are others that build to a higher spec and those are the rifles and companies that appeal to folks that will buy a product such as this.

Toolcraft, the OEM for many makers of rifles that supply the US government? Toolcraft is the BCG made for rifles that US troops bet their life on. PSA makes rifles with FN CHF barrels that are also used by our military. Obviously not the same as an LMT, but mil-spec does not mean expensive. Mil spec is often cheaper than makers like LMT. e.g. Colt and FN.

This BCG was made largely to address issues with full auto suppressed fire. My skepticism is related to how much difference it would actually make. Particularly to someone without a suppressed M4. Plus, if you're buying an LMT (just an example), it already has a similar improvement, making the aftermarket BCG unnecessary.

[readysetgo]

[tonyxcom]

Originally Posted by oak18

It’s quite obvious what problem this BCG is addressing. It says there right in the first post. The discussion that resulted was basically high price=high quality/ low price=low quality.

Reading does not equal understanding.

All of the "I have X thousand rounds though my X brand BCG without any problems" posts in this thread are indicative of people not understanding the target market of this BCG.

[oak18]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Reading does not equal understanding.

All of the "I have X thousand rounds though my X brand BCG without any problems" posts in this thread are indicative of people not understanding the target market of this BCG.

Sure, I can’t speak for everyone else posting here. My comments were in response to tony270, not the bcg in the original post. His initial comments, while related, veered the discussion off its tracks a little bit.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Reading does not equal understanding.

All of the "I have X thousand rounds though my X brand BCG without any problems" posts in this thread are indicative of people not understanding the target market of this BCG.

Honestly asking (since I fit the profile), what IS the target market?

I probably know enough to be dangerous, but at least am willing to learn a bit.

My knowledge of shooting suppressed ARs amounts to "I know it can take a lot of tweaking". I can concede that maybe this BCG is the cat's butt when it comes to suppressed, but at the same time, I would bet there are PLENTY of guys shooting suppressed ARs without a $400 BCG.

But beyond shooting suppressed, who else NEEDS this $400 piece of milled unicorn horn? Or if not "needs", who can really benefit from it?

[tonyxcom]

Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare

Honestly asking (since I fit the profile), what IS the target market?

I probably know enough to be dangerous, but at least am willing to learn a bit.

My knowledge of shooting suppressed ARs amounts to "I know it can take a lot of tweaking". I can concede that maybe this BCG is the cat's butt when it comes to suppressed, but at the same time, I would bet there are PLENTY of guys shooting suppressed ARs without a $400 BCG.

But beyond shooting suppressed, who else NEEDS this $400 piece of milled unicorn horn? Or if not "needs", who can really benefit from it?

Here is some more information that isn't gleaned from a basic picture and paragraph of text. I'm not claiming to be an expert either but its clear there is some IP in this product that I've not seen from LMT or any other of the advanced BCG's out there.

https://youtu.be/uUJax7C3qW4?t=47

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare

Honestly asking (since I fit the profile), what IS the target market?

Suppressed M4 carbines.
Beyond that, there is not a significant enough performance gain to justify the price.

Notable to this discussion is that Surefire is a suppressor maker.
It makes perfect sense to offer suppressor accessories such as the carrier being discussed.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Here is some more information that isn't gleaned from a basic picture and paragraph of text. I'm not claiming to be an expert either but its clear there is some IP in this product that I've not seen from LMT or any other of the advanced BCG's out there.

https://youtu.be/uUJax7C3qW4?t=47

OK I watched it and I think it all basically boils down to how cynical you are, and how much extra cash you have laying around.

Since I am super cynical and not rich by any means, I still see this as a "do you think we can add some stuff onto a BCG and sell it for $400?" ploy.

I mean, can you make real tangible improvements to a BCG to make a rifle 'run better'? Sure, why not? Is that probably marginal improvement worth $400?! I guess that is up to you and your checkbook.


So in the context of not running suppressed, I stand behind my "Back in my day we ran BCGs made out of melted down soup cans and bits of string! They exploded every 5th round AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!!!" stance.

And like I said, I am sure plenty of folks are shooting suppressed AR's on a standard BCG (or at least one that isn't $400) just fine.

[tonyxcom]

I mean can't you apply that kind of cynical logic to everything with a price tag on it?

I've seen $4500 1911's that I think are a total waste of money. Why? Because what can I do with it that I can't do with my Glock?

I know this is Calguns where people would sell their soul over an 11% discount on a Holosun green dot but complaining about the price of a product that doesn't pertain to you, is not marketed to you, and offers no benefits over a $60 BCG in your $500 AR with your unstaked castle nut is like complaining about the price of a $4500 1911.

[MarikinaMan]

Ive only seen 3 types of BCG failures. Cam bolt breakage, gas key loosening and extractor failure.

[MarikinaMan]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

I've seen $4500 1911's that I think are a total waste of money. Why? Because what can I do with it that I can't do with my Glock?

You can't buy happiness, but style is for sale, all day long.

[spfabrication]

I hope this thread outlasts the PC carbine thread that's 61 pages.

[sigstroker]

Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare

OK I watched it and I think it all basically boils down to how cynical you are, and how much extra cash you have laying around.

Since I am super cynical and not rich by any means, I still see this as a "do you think we can add some stuff onto a BCG and sell it for $400?" ploy.

I mean, can you make real tangible improvements to a BCG to make a rifle 'run better'? Sure, why not? Is that probably marginal improvement worth $400?! I guess that is up to you and your checkbook.


So in the context of not running suppressed, I stand behind my "Back in my day we ran BCGs made out of melted down soup cans and bits of string! They exploded every 5th round AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!!!" stance.

And like I said, I am sure plenty of folks are shooting suppressed AR's on a standard BCG (or at least one that isn't $400) just fine.

It makes sense their target market is their silencer buyers. They probably figure anyone rich enough (<cough>foolish enough) to buy their overpriced silencers might well overpay for a bcg they don't need.

[Jimi Jah]

If this BCG is so much better why doesn't the military use them?

They have the money (our taxes) to pay for those. They are cheaper than a $600 toilet seat.

[tonyxcom]

Originally Posted by Jimi Jah

If this BCG is so much better why doesn't the military use them?

They have the money (our taxes) to pay for those. They are cheaper than a $600 toilet seat.

They were just released.

And how do you know they aren't already using them or testing them?

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

I mean can't you apply that kind of cynical logic to everything with a price tag on it?

Yes, and you absolutely SHOULD.

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

I've seen $4500 1911's that I think are a total waste of money. Why? Because what can I do with it that I can't do with my Glock?

I know this is Calguns where people would sell their soul over an 11% discount on a Holosun green dot but complaining about the price of a product that doesn't pertain to you, is not marketed to you, and offers no benefits over a $60 BCG in your $500 AR with your unstaked castle nut is like complaining about the price of a $4500 1911.

The OP threw this BCG out for commentary. That is what I am doing.

Let's look at that $4500 1911. The cost in raw materials for that 1911 is probably about $50, which is probably an over-estimate if anything. Does the added cost of machining and precision fitting and what not equate to $4450?

Well, you could say yes, in terms of it being "what the market will bear".

But I would still feel absolutely justified in commenting something like "Look if you take your retail bought 1911 and sent it to a competent 1911 dedicated gunsmith it would probably come out on par with a $4500 1911 at half the price".

The point is, the gun industry, and ESPECIALLY the AR15 ecosystem, is FILLED with high priced whiz-bang "solutions in search of a problem" gadgets that pertain to only about 1% of the user-base. And for the 1% that these gadgets pertain to, there are likely much cheaper ways of getting the same result. BUT, there will always be some run of the mill shooter who gladly pays the premium so they can look at their gun and think "Man, that thing is TOP OF THE LINE!"

Meanwhile some guy a couple stations down is shooting on the exact same platform only their variant cost them 1/4 as much and is having a 100% identical user experience.

I mean, that IS up to them. I ain't gonna lose any sleep over how someone spends their money. But I WILL always reserve my right to think it's silly.

[tonyxcom]

Then I reserve my right to say people like you are ridiculously silly.

Commenting on the price and function of something that clearly wasn't designed for you is silly. $400 isn't even a lot of money. Have a look in your safes everyone. In your garages. On your shelves. We all own something that someone else is going to think we overpaid for.

But I digress. This is Calguns, where people will happily support companies with Anti-2a tendencies to save 11% on a chicom optics. Where they place saving a few dollars above their morals.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

Then I reserve my right to say people like you are ridiculously silly.

Commenting on the price and function of something that clearly wasn't designed for you is silly. $400 isn't even a lot of money. Have a look in your safes everyone. In your garages. On your shelves. We all own something that someone else is going to think we overpaid for.

But I digress. This is Calguns, where people will happily support companies with Anti-2a tendencies to save 11% on a chicom optics. Where they place saving a few dollars above their morals.

OK so people should only comment on things that pertain to them. Kinda flies in the face of much of what the internet is used for these days but whatever.

I guess by that logic, the only allowable response to the OP's question:

"AR15s are pretty reliable, particularly when they're of good quality. How much more reliable are we talking about? Some of the features seem to be for running suppressors, which can be problematic for ARs sometimes. But $400 seems steep for what it purports to do.

If it does do what it says, I'm skeptical as to if it's even noticeable. Let's say you put this into a nice AR, like an LMT. One proven to fire many thousands of rounds without failure, what more are you getting? "

... would be: "I am sorry, I cannot comment on your question as I have no direct experience with this BCG or LMT ARs. As such, despite my other experience with AR15s I am entirely unqualified to comment on what are essentially commodity components like BCGs."


I'll try to remember that next time.

[tonyxcom]

There is certainly room for discussion.

I thought I made it pretty clear I was referring to the "why would anyone pay $400 for that when my $60 toolcraft is problem free for 4000 rounds" type comments.

Those types of comments are USELESS to the discussion.

But whatever. I will just laugh inside when people are losing their minds over the price of products they don't understand or weren't even designed for them in the first place.

I've got a $3600 35x ATACR to mount in $180 scope rings today. I hope Calguns approves of my dollar to performance vector based on their experience with Primary Arms scopes. (nothing against primary arms)

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

But I digress. This is Calguns, where people will happily support companies with Anti-2a tendencies to save 11% on a chicom optics. Where they place saving a few dollars above their morals.

And you are clearly bringing a LOT of baggage from elsewhere into this discussion if you are trying to turn this into something about Calguns commentariat having anti 2a leanings.

Not sure how people essentially saying "might be cool but probably not necessary and especially not at that price" takes you there.

Near as I can tell, every component on the AR I built was made in the USA, including my crappy $60 (ahem, it was $89 actually) BCG.

[tonyxcom]

Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare

And you are clearly bringing a LOT of baggage from elsewhere into this discussion if you are trying to turn this into something about Calguns commentariat having anti 2a leanings..

No, that's a commentary about how cheap gun owners in California are. Which is why they lose their minds over a $400 BCG. One that wasn't designed for your average AR. and one designed to address a very specific set of problems.

[Usmc0844spare]

Originally Posted by tonyxcom

I've got a $3600 35x ATACR to mount in $180 scope rings today. I hope Calguns approves of my dollar to performance vector based on their experience with Primary Arms scopes. (nothing against primary arms)

Pffft.... shoulda got a Mueller scope.

j/k Looks nice. Congrats.