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Grunt81
10-27-2014, 5:32 PM
Hey Calgunners,

I've been reloading 9mm and .223 for over a year and am ready to step up to reloading for a .308 Savage 11 Trophy Hunter XP. I took advantage of birthday pricing from midway usa and dropped around $250 on equipment, bullets, cheek rest, recoil pad, and cleaning gear.

I'll be loading 168 grain Nosler Custom Competition HPBTs over Varget and Reloader 15 using Federal 210 primers (not the 210M). The rifle has a 1:10 rate of twist.

I got the lee 4 die set (can't remember if it's ultimate or deluxe), a Holland primer pocket uniformer, and a Lyman flash hole deburring tool.

I already have a Lyman hand swaging tool which I've never really used. I've read somewhere that they tend to go dull after a few hundred crimps get swaged out of the primer pocket. I also use the Lyman trimmer and pilots attached to my drill.

I ordered 100 7.62 NATO cases from brass bombers. NATO once-fired brass is the cheapest brass that can actually be found on a regular basis, from what I've discovered.

Because I have plenty of questions, I don't mind if this thread gets a little off topic (most accurate bullet for my twist rate, best dies, etc...).

My real question is pretty much the process for preparing military brass. I know swaging only happens once, but should primer pockets and flash holes be uniformed after every firing, or just for the first one? Should I resize and trim before swaging and uniforming or does it not matter? As of right now, this will be mainly a hunting rifle, so I'm not set on changing out the stock or anything. But I am after the most accurate ammo I can make. I'm sure plenty of you have a lot of experience reloading .308 so I'm looking forward to your input. Thanks.

highpower790
10-27-2014, 5:48 PM
prep your brass the as you have been doing'with the exception of swaging the pt
primer pocket.as mentioned this is done only once and it doesn't matter if this is done beforeor after sizing.

Grunt81
10-27-2014, 5:54 PM
Thanks HighPower. I haven't prepped any brass yet since I just placed the orders today. It sounds like you're saying I should deburr the flash hole and uniform the primer pocket for each loading? I've read on other sites that the primer pocket can get blown to rear and would benefit from uniforming at each reloading. I've also read that once flash holes are deburred once, they don't need it any more. What do you guys think?

highpower790
10-27-2014, 5:58 PM
Deburring the flash hole is done only once if you want to do that, just like swaging the primer pocket. For myself I have never performed either task and have suffered no negative consequences in twenty years of reloading..

Divernhunter
10-27-2014, 5:59 PM
Deburring/flash hole uniforming needs to be done only once. It can be done before or after sizing if the brass is deprimed.
That is the wrong bullet for hunting. Buy HUNTING bullets for hunting. Use match/target bullets for target shooting.

Grunt81
10-27-2014, 6:04 PM
I'm not planning on hunting with them. I just bought them to break in the barrel and get my first loads made. The rest can be used for paper or plinking since I got 250 of them. I have full intention of working up a load with a credible hunting bullet such as an AccuBond, Interlock, VLD etc.. before I ever put a deer in my crosshairs.

Thanks for clearing up that flash hole deburring is only done once. I'm assuming even if I tried deburring the flash hole after each reloading, there wouldn't be any material to shave off?

highpower790
10-27-2014, 6:04 PM
Op said nothing about hunting, just mentioned the model of fire arm and bullet to be used.

Braddah Jay
10-27-2014, 8:08 PM
Op said nothing about hunting, just mentioned the model of fire arm and bullet to be used.

He actually did towards the end of his post " As of right now, this will be mainly a hunting rifle"
I clean out the flash hole if I'm trying out different powders while working up a load, but that's just me. Not totally sure if there is any advantage to doing it though. Maybe one of our veteran reloaders can chime in on that subject?

Metal God
10-27-2014, 8:35 PM
I have the Lyman flash hole uniformer/deburrer . It uses a stop on the mouth of the case to gage depth and insure uniformity . All cases must be trimmed to the same length to do so . That means I size then trim all cases before deburring .

jh4db536
10-27-2014, 8:39 PM
For once fired LC brass, I decap them, swage the primer pockets once in their lifetime, flashhole could need correcting more than once if SS pins get stuck after tumbling or after high pressure load. First time will use small base die to FL resize and I use my neck bushing die after that.

LC brass usually weighs around 180+ gr after I cut quite a bit of brass off in trimming, flashhole correcting, neck turning, and primer pocket uniforming. I found weight variation to be high about +/- 2.5gr.

Accuracy has been frustrating given the work put in to prep. Usually 1 to .75" at 100yds with full weight sorting and concentricity correction. Occasionally I'll get lucky with a .30" group.

In my experience the 7.62 NATO lasts for about 6 or 7 medium/high pressure reloads (like .1 gr less of primer pocket flattening load) with full length resizing non SB die. Always have to trim brass each shot, but I'm usually trimming to 2.010".

So far I have always lost LC brass to actual or impending case head separation...The necks never cracked on me and the swaged primer pockets never got loose.

With careful body die resizer setup and limiting pushing the shoulder back only 0.002 each reload I believe they could last a lot longer.

Decap, body size/shoulder bump, wet tumble, neck size, trim, weight sort, prime, charge, seat bullet w/ Forster comp or Wilson straight line seater.

J-cat
10-27-2014, 9:06 PM
I cut the crimp out, then swage. Reason being that the crimp collapses the side walls of the primer pocket and they need to roll out into something under the pressure of swaging. Cutting the crimp produces a nice 45 degree champher and the swager turns that sharp angle into a radius. If you don't cut the crimp out the swaging action will raise the brass around the perimeter of the primer pocket altering headspace. If you adjust the swager for minimum swaging you won't have enough radius to seat the primers easily and some will hang up.

I FL size the brass using a +.004" competition shell holder. This gives me 0-.002" clearance in my chamber.

I don't trim because they are never long enough. My chamber will swallow 2.050" long cases.

I do debur the case mouth, though, to make bullet seating easier.

I then weight sort the brass into 1gr lots. For hunting you can do 2gr lots. LC weighs from 178 to 185grs. That difference in case capacity requires a .3gr powder charge adjustment to maintain the same velocity.

Or just buy Lapua and you don't have to do anything.

ar15barrels
10-27-2014, 10:04 PM
I'll be loading 168 grain Nosler Custom Competition HPBTs over Varget using Federal 210 primers in LC cases.

Load 44.5gr and call it done.

Grunt81
10-27-2014, 11:16 PM
Metal God, great piece of information to know. From the looks of the tool, there's some sort of rubber tapered bushing that runs into the case mouth so trimming should definitely give a uniform depth of deburring. I can see how different lengths of case might even cause a flash hole to be enlarged or beveled.

jh4db536 : Whoah, great information. I also wet tumble. Do you think SS pins can deform flash holes as they pass through?
Do you only neck size for your 6 -7 reloads, or do you run them through a full length sizer after 3 -4 reloads?

J-Cat : You seem as knowledgeable about reloading 308 as you do 9mm! Midway was out of stock on Lapua, but I did consider it. Matter of fact, every reloading store in my area and website I know of is out of factory new 308 brass, with the exception of Hornady Match and maybe Norma. If I'm going to pay that price, I'd rather get the Lapua based on their reputation. But then again, If I'm going to be screwing up cases being a newbie, I'd rather it be 5 cent LC 7.62 brass.

How in the heck do you cut out a crimp? I saw a youtube video of someone running a chamfer tool through the primer pocket. If just normally swaging, and brass is raised around the circumference of the primer pocket, is it visible to the naked eye or do calipers tell you that the case "grew" 0.002 after swaging? If headspace is altered, Id imagine swaging before trimming would be a good idea.

Randall: Given you're credibility, I'm almost tempted to just load that and be done with it! Haha, naw man, taking your load would be too easy and take the fun out of it! Not to mention, a cardinal sin in the cult of reloaders. By the way, I know you praise the RCBS and Redding competition dies, but have you ever taken the same loads and done accuracy tests between rounds made with Lee dies and rounds made by dies 4 times the price? I'm interested to see how much group size would actually decrease based on higher quality dies. Based on my zero experience loading 308, it's hard to swallow that group sizes would be 4 times tighter.

Pete1979
10-28-2014, 3:53 AM
I would start with 42gr and play with seating depth before jumping straight to 44.5. While Randall knows what he's talking about, you don't have to push them that hard for anything under 500 yds. I typically get stellar results with 42gr and the bullets close or touching the lands. If you run across any BL-C2, I've gotten freakish groups out of 44.5 gr.
With once fired lake city, check the cases before you spend too much time on them, I've had visible stretching right out of the bag. Also if they aren't annealed, they can be pretty hard to size. Invest in a quality lube like imperial and take your time. Watch your neck tension as well, after a few firings you can feel more resistance as the shell comes out of the sizer. Once you get inconsistency there (you can actually hear some of them squeak), accuracy within a batch of brass will diminish.


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J-cat
10-28-2014, 6:08 AM
How in the heck do you cut out a crimp? I saw a youtube video of someone running a chamfer tool through the primer pocket. If just normally swaging, and brass is raised around the circumference of the primer pocket, is it visible to the naked eye or do calipers tell you that the case "grew" 0.002 after swaging? If headspace is altered, Id imagine swaging before trimming would be a good idea.

RCBS makes a military crimp reover. I chuck it in a cordless drill. It's visible to the naked eye. While sizing compensates for it, the rear of the case is no longer flat.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/594559/rcbs-trim-mate-case-prep-center-military-crimp-remover-large?cm_vc=sugv1594559

ar15barrels
10-28-2014, 8:44 AM
have you ever taken the same loads and done accuracy tests between rounds made with Lee dies and rounds made by dies 4 times the price? I'm interested to see how much group size would actually decrease based on higher quality dies. Based on my zero experience loading 308, it's hard to swallow that group sizes would be 4 times tighter.

I tried to like Lee dies, but the few times I bought them, the machining was so rough that they would tear brass off my cases.
After similar problems a few times, I just quit trying.

I have not compared the accuracy of lee dies against better dies, but there are lots of people that seem to like them.
I have seen guns shoot very well with ammo made on Lee dies.
The collet sizer is the one that one of our club shooters uses.

J-cat
10-28-2014, 8:50 AM
There is no difference in accuracy. There is a difference in convenience. Lee dies are rough. RCBS are a little more expensive, but a lot better made. There is no comparison between the surface finish on the inside.

spamsucker
10-28-2014, 9:02 AM
I've had very very hard sizing with surplus once-fired .308 brass since most of it appears to come from machine guns and they seem to have some sloppy sloppy chambers and a heck of a powder charge. Over lube, under lube, stuck cases, broken decapping pins. It's not run for the hills difficult but be ready for some hair pulling. It was still worth it. Best brass you can get IMO.

I use Lee, RCBS and Hornday Custom dies. The big difference I see in them is the locking rings that lee uses kinda suck but you can get RCBS rings for them cheap and problem is solved.

I did have to cut 3 grains off book max for most of my loads. So where book was saying 44 grains of powder X I was only able to get 41 grains without compressing the load or having pressure signs. All the stuff I read about surplus brass was talking about 1 grain difference but I needed to drop 3.

23's Dad
10-28-2014, 11:19 AM
I've had very very hard sizing with surplus once-fired .308 brass since most of it appears to come from machine guns and they seem to have some sloppy sloppy chambers and a heck of a powder charge. Over lube, under lube, stuck cases, broken decapping pins. It's not run for the hills difficult but be ready for some hair pulling. It was still worth it.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/519/519525.jpg

Grunt81
10-28-2014, 11:21 AM
Well gents, you're making me feel better about my choice in dies. If accuracy is on par, as far as uniform bullet seating, then I can deal with some damaged cases if brass is shaved off. For $20, I can replace 100 LC cases and still have spent $100 less than RCBS or Redding competition dies. I have no issue with Lee lock rings. I have a Lyman T Mag II Turret press that I bought used from the guy that got me to join Calguns. He also gave me a tool for tightening and loosening lock rings. If for some reason I have it really tight, a crescent wrench or channel type pliers work fine. Midway USA was out of Lyman turrets so I'll be dealing with taking dies out. Not a big deal for me since I started loading with a Lee Handpress before my wife decided single stage was too time consuming for 9mm! Haha

As far as difficult resizing goes, I've had an easy time resizing LC 5.56 using Hornady Unique Case Lube. I apply it inside the neck with a q tip (I do remove some cotton as it gets loose) and apply it to the body of the case with my finger tips when it's on the shell holder. I've a heard of a few reloaders who allow the shell holder to touch the bottom of the FL sizing die, then run the once-fired LC case throught the die, then give it a 1/3 turn, resize again, turn another 1/3 turn, and resize one more time. Supposedly it helps with getting uniform case dimensions. Other than possibley working brass more than it needs, I don't see how resizing 3 times on newly acquired LC brass can hurt. If the Lee FL sizing die is like my others, then the collet holding the decapping pin should allow the pin to push up on a bulged case rather than breaking the tip. I'm also under the impression that my .223 decapping pin makes the case neck a perfect circle. After reloading my PMC brass 5 times, I feel that the neck tension is very uniform when I seat the bullets.

Interesting that you need to bump down 3 grains. Most load data on HODGON's website only shows a 3 grain spread from min to max to begin with. I'll keep that in mind and maybe do a water test with the couple of empty Winchester cases I have for comparison, after processing them too.

I have limited knowlege of benchrest rifles, but I imagine they cost thousands and have dies made that are custom to the rifle. They have a heavy barrel, lapped action, very rigid stock with bedding, and can shoot 0.2 MOA from a quality rest. I know the synthetic stocks can be flimsy and touch on the rest. I might eventually open up the barrel channel and epoxy some aluminum rods in there to help with keeping the barrel free-floated. Even though I want this to be a hunting rifle, I still see myself shooting groups at paper for fun at least once a month. I'll be happy with developing loads and shooting skills to make a 0.6 MOA 5 shot group from a rest with my handloads. I have full intention of letting the barrel cool for about three minutes, and will properly break in the barrel per Savage's website. I heard Savage actions are great to build into custom rifle, if I decide to go that route in the future.

Any opinions on best bullet weight for a 1:10 twist 308? I got 168 grains just because, really. What are your experiences with 130, 150, and 175 grains out of the 1:10 barrels?

23's Dad
10-28-2014, 11:30 AM
My real question is pretty much the process for preparing military brass. I know swaging only happens once, but should primer pockets and flash holes be uniformed after every firing, or just for the first one? Should I resize and trim before swaging and uniforming or does it not matter?

My process for a first reload on LC brass:

Tumble
Lube with...you guessed it - Imperial Wax
Resize
Trim, deburr, and chamfer - my flash hole uniformer also indexes off the case mouth
Flash hole deburr - first time only
Chamfer primer pocket staking - I trim my primer pockets gently with a chamfer tool. I try to stay very shallow and remove as little material as possible.
Primer Pocket uniformer - acts as GO gauge for chamfer.



My process for a subsequent reloads on LC brass:

Tumble
Lube with Imperial Wax
Resize
Trim, deburr, and chamfer
Primer Pocket uniformer - cleans primer pocket and you can feel if the pocket is getting loose.

J-cat
10-28-2014, 11:50 AM
3grs is a big much. 1.5grs is more like it.

Pete1979
10-28-2014, 1:04 PM
175gr Matchkings seated as close to the lands as possible.


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Grunt81
10-28-2014, 2:15 PM
175gr Matchkings seated as close to the lands as possible.


Thanks for the suggestion. Have you personally found 175 SMKs to be more accurate in your rifle, vs 168 SMKs?

Also, I know if the bullets are touching the lands, there should be a pressure spike due to the resisance of the rifling engraving the bullet without a allowing for the bullet to get a running start. And obviously, that pressure spike can diminished by backing off on the powder charge.

Someone on YouTube suggested seating bullets 0.005" off the lands and that was what I was planning on starting off with since it seems like a safe distance and experimenting from there. I've also heard that 0.002" to 0.003" off the lands is good for accuracy. I don't know how long of a bullet my detachable magazine will allow me to load, but that will play a factor in how long I seat my test loads because I intend on using the box magazine.

Grunt81
10-28-2014, 2:17 PM
My process for a first reload on LC brass:

Tumble
Lube with...you guessed it - Imperial Wax
Resize
Trim, deburr, and chamfer - my flash hole uniformer also indexes off the case mouth
Flash hole deburr - first time only
Chamfer primer pocket staking - I trim my primer pockets gently with a chamfer tool. I try to stay very shallow and remove as little material as possible.
Primer Pocket uniformer - acts as GO gauge for chamfer.



My process for a subsequent reloads on LC brass:

Tumble
Lube with Imperial Wax
Resize
Trim, deburr, and chamfer
Primer Pocket uniformer - cleans primer pocket and you can feel if the pocket is getting loose.


Thanks for the step by step breakdown! One thing I wanted to clear up though. Since you use a regular chamfer too to scrape off some of the crimp, and then go straight into primer pocket uniforming, do you completely bypass using a swaging tool?

ar15barrels
10-28-2014, 3:39 PM
Well gents, you're making me feel better about my choice in dies. If accuracy is on par, as far as uniform bullet seating, then I can deal with some damaged cases if brass is shaved off. For $20, I can replace 100 LC cases and still have spent $100 less than RCBS or Redding competition dies.

The advantage of the Redding competition dies over almost all other dies is that you can select your neck tension in 0.001" diameter steps by swapping out the neck bushings.
Having control of the neck tension is a tuning factor when tweaking your loads.
Standard dies purposely oversize the neck and then use an expander to stretch it back out to size.
This works the brass and is the reason that cases fail from splitting necks.
Being able to size the minimum amount necessary gives longer brass life.

The Redding competition seater is a benchrest quality seater.
It has a full chamber that holds the bullet and case in alignment while the bullet is seated straight into the case.
This produces far more concentric ammo.
Having the bullet straight in the case is a big factor in accuracy.

Grunt81
10-28-2014, 5:56 PM
Thanks for the info, Randall.

I'm just interested in knowing the quality of the ammo I can make with low-to-moderately priced equipment, and the results when shot out of an out of the box, budget rifle, with a good reputation. I figure I can keep what works well and upgrade the stuff I don't think works well. I've always been a firm believer in "don't knock it till you try it," as opposed to, "You get what you pay for," or "buy once, cry once." If I ever decide to compete in long range shooting, I agree it would behoove me to set myself up for success with the best quality brass, bullets, and dies. I've heard somewhere that sometimes the difference between 1st place and 4th place is somewhere around 0.002".

I set up a photobucket account since I'm selling a .22lr pistol that can be found in private firearm sales, handguns. I'll keep you guys updated on how my groups look with my handloads when I go to the range to break the barrel in. My wife's a sweetheart and bought me a box of 180 grain Winchester Power Points, as a way of telling me she approves of me getting the rifle! Haha, I guess I'll shoot 5-10 of those just to see how they group. By looking at them though, the bullets seem blemished and I can just barely tell that the crimp is at different places in the cannelure, which may indicate a significant spread in OAL. I'm not expecting much, but it's no news flash that reliability trumps accuracy in combat and hunting.

So in your experiences, have you seen a trend in 175 grain bullets grouping tighter than 168, or is it just always rifle and barrel specific?

I'm thinking instead of buying 250 of the 168 grainers, I should have got 100 each of 150, 168, and 175 to experiment with. Darn.

ar15barrels
10-28-2014, 8:29 PM
So in your experiences, have you seen a trend in 175 grain bullets grouping tighter than 168, or is it just always rifle and barrel specific?

I'm thinking instead of buying 250 of the 168 grainers, I should have got 100 each of 150, 168, and 175 to experiment with.

168 SMK's will shoot better than 175's, but are only good for 600yds and closer.
Most longrange 308 shooters stick with 175's since you can use them out to 1000yds.
Shooting ONLY one load through the rifle for all your shooting makes you much more familiar with your load/gun.
Just get 175's, load them to 2.820" long over 44gr of Varget and call it done.

Grunt81
10-28-2014, 8:55 PM
168 SMK's will shoot better than 175's, but are only good for 600yds and closer.
Most longrange 308 shooters stick with 175's since you can use them out to 1000yds.
Shooting ONLY one load through the rifle for all your shooting makes you much more familiar with your load/gun.
Just get 175's, load them to 2.820" long over 44gr of Varget and call it done.

Thanks for the advice. My favorite range (Angeles) has steel targets out to 600 yards and you can place paper out to 300 yards sometimes. Maybe it's a good idea I went with 168 NCC!

Since you're a gunsmith, I'm assuming you're familiar with Savage 10,11,14,16 actions. How far off the lands do you think 2.82" OAL puts the ogive? I don't have any fancy comparator or anything. The way I've always tested how far a bullet's ogive is off the lands is by getting a prepped brass case a (no primer no powder), I seat a bullet pretty long so it has just enough neck support, I color the bearing surface with a marker, then I chamber the round and let the rifling seat the bullet for me. I measure the OAL of the dummy cartridge and subtract the length of the streaks where the marker got wiped off. That gives me a pretty good indication of how long the cartridge needs to be for it to touch the lands. Others have done the same thing but instead of using a marker, they make a cut in the neck to allow the bullet to slide in and out by hand. I don't like that idea because I can see how the bullet can move as you extract it, maybe it would even defeat the purpose by staying in the rifling.

Granted, I've only done this for two AR-15s since I have no bolt action rifle yet (I'm dropping the cash on Sunday and it will be about a 12 day waiting period due to shipping). My AR with Compass Lake chamber needs an OAL of 2.3XX to touch the lands and my AR with 5.56 chamber needs 2.4XX to touch the lands.

jh4db536
10-28-2014, 9:00 PM
SS pins when stuck inside the flashhole might deform it out of round when pulling the pins out. I seen the flashhole deform after shooting a hot load too.

Ive never stuck cases until I started reloading .308 LC. I've stuck cases using imperial and RCBS Lube2. I've stuck cases in my body only die, SB FL resizer, standard FL resizer...luckily it's easily removable from the body die...with a socket, a 1/4" extension, and a hammer.

The usual death of my LC brass after I shot it about 10x +. Sometimes it only cracks halfway. Sometimes I catch it before, by using a paperclip to detect the stress fracture inside the brass after tumbling. Throw those away. I've never lost .308LC brass to split neck so far. It's not good for groups when it happens. I didn't even shoot that hot of a load on this one...the primer is still round.
To maximize the brass life, don't just screw the FL Sizer or Body die down until it touches the shell holder; set it so you're only bumping the shoulder a little bit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/jh4db536/WMD/IMG-20141002-WA0000_zps53l4naxg.jpeg

Annealing by hand helps ensure that you don't overheat the head. I cant afford one of those fancy machines either lol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/jh4db536/WMD/20140810_095348_zpsjk07va5i.jpg

LC is capable of decent groups. Consistency is not there IMO. Im done with LC. I wont be replacing after I killed them all; I learned what I needed to learn. I'm ready for some real stuff...I bought a couple of boxes of Norma, BHA, and HSM so I can reload those and see if it makes a difference. Right now I only have 1 bolt gun and mostly LC brass. I tried reloading American Eagle M1a Match brass and it's a little better, but not by much.

Metal God
10-28-2014, 10:10 PM
The way I've always tested how far a bullet's ogive is off the lands is by getting a prepped brass case a (no primer no powder), I seat a bullet pretty long so it has just enough neck support, I color the bearing surface with a marker, then I chamber the round and let the rifling seat the bullet for me.

ALL OF THIS IS WITH UNPRIMED AND UNCHARGED CASES

What I did before getting a OAL gage was use a fire formed case from the rifle in question . Make sure the empty case chambers in the rifle ( It may need trimming ) . Then I used pliers or the like to crimp the neck just enough to hold the bullet but slide in and out with finger pressure . I then would set the bullet out pretty far in the case . I then chambered the round and when the bullet hit the lands it would stop and seat into the case . You the carefully extract the case and measure . This can take so tries to get right . If the bullet is not held enough in the case it could get stuck in the bore or move in the case when extracting . To much hold you get the bullet seating into the lands and either getting stuck or giving you inconsistent measurements because the lands grab the bullet when extracting and pull it back out of the case a little giving you a false reading .

You can do it your way as well but instead of measuring the scratches . You seat the bullet long in the case but instead of forcing the bullet into the rifling . You start to close the bolt and if you feel any resistance you extract and seat the bullet in the die 1 or 2 thou more and repeat until the round chambers freely . This should get you close . I'd then back off .010 and start from there or not what ever you want . I always start off the lands a tad . Right now I have no loads that are loaded at or touching the lands . I have some that are close but none that touch . I am going to try something a friend suggested . That is 208gr A-MAX over IMR4350 jammed into the lands from the start of load development .

As for deburring , check out this recent thread at TFL forum . Look from post #52 on , Feel free to read it all but I can some up the whole thread up to post #52 . OP why debur , everybody else no need , totaly helps , no it doesn't , yes it does . I've never seen a bur in a case or hanging chad , How could you see inside the case . bla bla bla then post #52 . It's funny how all the know it all's just stop posting in the thread after #52

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553086&page=3

23's Dad
10-29-2014, 8:33 AM
Thanks for the step by step breakdown! One thing I wanted to clear up though. Since you use a regular chamfer too to scrape off some of the crimp, and then go straight into primer pocket uniforming, do you completely bypass using a swaging tool?


I don't swage the brass at all. I just chamfer the primer pocket to about 1/32". I go slow using a manual drill. I usually turn the handle 2 1/2 times for each piece. Power drills take too much brass, too fast. The manual drill doesn't have that high speed electric whine either.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae344/blosey/Reloading%20photos/photobucket-12948-1354550452715.jpg (http://s986.photobucket.com/user/blosey/media/Reloading%20photos/photobucket-12948-1354550452715.jpg.html)

ar15barrels
10-29-2014, 8:44 AM
The usual death of my LC brass after I shot it about 10x +. Sometimes it only cracks halfway. Sometimes I catch it before, by using a paperclip to detect the stress fracture inside the brass after tumbling.

You are sizing your brass too much.
I am at 12 firings on a few hundred pieces of winchester 243 brass and none of them have any internal stretching.
The primer pockets are getting loose though.

I only set the shoulders back between 0.001" and 0.002".
I only need to trim about every 5th or 6th firing.

Excessive sizing causes the failures you are seeing as well as increases the need for trimming.

JMP
10-29-2014, 10:24 AM
The advantage of the Redding competition dies over almost all other dies is that you can select your neck tension in 0.001" diameter steps by swapping out the neck bushings.
Having control of the neck tension is a tuning factor when tweaking your loads.
Standard dies purposely oversize the neck and then use an expander to stretch it back out to size.
This works the brass and is the reason that cases fail from splitting necks.
Being able to size the minimum amount necessary gives longer brass life.

The Redding competition seater is a benchrest quality seater.
It has a full chamber that holds the bullet and case in alignment while the bullet is seated straight into the case.
This produces far more concentric ammo.
Having the bullet straight in the case is a big factor in accuracy.
Exactly, for rifle, the Redding Comp sets are the only dies I will use as long as it comes in a size for my cartridge. This also saves a lot of time, and it will save you money in the long run. An advantage is that the micrometer neck die with the gold bushing often let's you prep your brass in one easy pull and no lube--it resets the neck tension and will push your neck back a hair where you started. Then, there is a separate body die, which you can use at times to just square up your shoulder. Because, it's separate, it's virtually impossible to get stuck cases. Also, the Redding decapping rod is of superlative design. Occasionally, you may break or bend the pin. This can be fixed with a $0.25 new pin; other dies may require a new decapping rod.

If you use different bullets, it's absolutely imperative to have the micrometer seater. Not only will you have non-concentric bullets with cheap dies, it's a disaster trying to alter your seating depth by fritzing around with the threads on the die.

168 SMK's will shoot better than 175's, but are only good for 600yds and closer.
Most longrange 308 shooters stick with 175's since you can use them out to 1000yds.
Shooting ONLY one load through the rifle for all your shooting makes you much more familiar with your load/gun.
Just get 175's, load them to 2.820" long over 44gr of Varget and call it done.
I agree completely. .308 is the one cartridge where Sierra gets it done quite well. It's really hard to beat a 168gr SMK in accuracy from a .308. I use the 168gr SMKs virtually exclusively. As noted, there's a ballistic advantage with different bullets, but I don't need to shoot .308 that far. For longer shooting, I'd go with the 175 SMK or the 155gr Scenar.

I happen to agree with the charge recommendations as I use 44.0gr Varget for 175 SMKs and 44.4gr IMR 4064 for 168gr SMKs @ 2.800" as they have fat tangent o-gives. The thing is .308 is ridiculously easy to load accurately as long as you keep them consistent. If you aren't getting accurate connected groups, you or your gun has an issue. Don't be cheap, or it'll cost you more in the long run. Get yourself a heavy contour Bartlein 5r barrel with a 1:12" twist that's cut by a competent gunsmith, and you'll find very little sensitivity to small variations as long as you keep your load consistent--you can get the blank for $325 and it'll last. +/- 0.01" length or a tad difference in charge shouldn't make that much difference. A rigid 5r barrel spun and cut with high manufacturing tolerances will alleviate the need to OCW or ladder your loads to death. It's friggin .308; it's all been figured out.

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 3:00 PM
jhd: Thanks for the pics. I own th Lyman multi-tool which comes with a chamfer head and large/small swaging heads. I'm still having a hard time seeing if there's a benefit to chamfering the primer pockets, rather than swaging. If the goal is to just remove enough of the crimp to allow a new primer to be insert snuggly, it seems that they both do the same thing. Actually, I wonder if the chamfer tool can open the primer pockets up too much since it gradually gets bigger, whereas a swaging tool is the same diameter all the way through.

I'd like to pick your brain about annealing though, since I've never done it. As a plumber for four years, I've got hours upon hours of experience with the finest torches using MAP gas. Is it supposed to be done before resizing clean brass? Do you just do it until it the neck turns dark? Do you have to take the torch all the way around for uniform heat, or does the heat reach the other side of the case easily? Do you heat the neck and shoulder or just the neck?

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 3:01 PM
Dang, the first part of my last post was meant for 23's dad.

J-cat
10-29-2014, 3:34 PM
I'd like to pick your brain about annealing though, since I've never done it. As a plumber for four years, I've got hours upon hours of experience with the finest torches using MAP gas. Is it supposed to be done before resizing clean brass? Do you just do it until it the neck turns dark? Do you have to take the torch all the way around for uniform heat, or does the heat reach the other side of the case easily? Do you heat the neck and shoulder or just the neck?

You anneal the shoulder and the neck.

You do not use MAP.

You heat the neck until you see it saturated with heat, but before it glows. I use a micro torch as it offers better control.

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 4:14 PM
Thanks J-cat. Is MAP too hot? What kind of gas/fuel do you recommend?

ar15barrels
10-29-2014, 5:54 PM
Is MAP too hot? What kind of gas/fuel do you recommend?

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=116881&d=1345585856

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 6:11 PM
Thanks Randall. What about the actual procedure for annealing? I saw one guy on YT anneal, dunk in water after a couple minutes of cooling, allow to air dry, then primer, powder, bullet. Anything wrong with annealing before resizing?

ar15barrels
10-29-2014, 8:55 PM
Thanks Randall. What about the actual procedure for annealing? I saw one guy on YT anneal, dunk in water after a couple minutes of cooling, allow to air dry, then primer, powder, bullet. Anything wrong with annealing before resizing?

Lacking a fancy annealer like I have:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/15/18ffddbbe5098e986e448a24651a8372.jpg

Get a socket adapter and a 1/2" deep socket.
Put those on a cordless drill on low speed.
Setup a torch on the bench in front of you.
Organize your bench so you can reach into a box and grab a case and have a non flammable place to dump a hot case.
Light the torch.
Turn off the lights.
Put a case in the drill and bring the neck into the tip of the inner flame while running the drill.
When you JUST see the case beginning to glow (this is why you are working in the dark), pull the case out of the flame immediatly and dump it into your finished cases box.
No need to water quench as it does not do anything besides cool the cases faster and create more work of drying the cases.

Metal God
10-29-2014, 10:01 PM
Well I started to explain what I do when it comes to annealing . As well as show all my pictures of the test I did but then realized I'd be writing , cutting and pasting for longer then I have time . So here is a thread at TFL I was quite involved in .I should add that it's a bit long but I feel a good read . The OP wanted to find the the cheapest and most consistent way to anneal . There is a lot of good info in the thread and I did quite a bit of testing with lots of pictures of the results through out the thread . I did use both propane and MAPP gases in the testing while using temperture indicating liquid on both the necks and just below the shoulders . http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545128&highlight=my+take+on+annealing

What I will ask you here is what is it you are trying to accomplish when you anneal ? Are you looking the get very consistent bullet hold and release or just prolong case life ? IMHO annealing is a science and not subject to a look or a feel . That does not mean you need to be a rocket scientist to anneal just that there is a true science involved . The neck and shoulders need to be heated to a specific temp . To hot and the case is ruined , not hot enough and you just waisted your time . I recommend using a temp indicator on at least one of every 10 to 20 cases to keep you locked in on the timing and temp of the torch .


http://www.annealingmachines.com/how-to-anneal.html
Changes start to occur in brass grain structure at 480 degrees Fahrenheit. To properly anneal brass, the temperature needs to be at 650 degrees F. for several minutes--BUT this will transfer too-much heat to the lower case in that time. So we need more heat for a shorter time. We need to raise the neck temp to about 750 degrees F. only for a few seconds to anneal.

Quote:
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html
Proper annealing seems so ticklish, some handloading experts flatly advise against it. But they’re usually not wildcatters, so they get along with factory brass and see annealing only as a means of restoring resiliency to the necks of tired cases. Also, too much of what has long been printed about annealing has sired a family of false ideas that have led handloaders to ruin a lot of good brass by too much or too little annealing. Buying new ready-formed brass isn’t always a practical option, even for some well-known factory cartridges. It’s almost never an option for the fellow who loads wildcat or obsolete cartridges.

So, despite some otherwise worthy advice, the need for annealing can be inevitable if the brass is to be fit for handloading. Overannealing is a double danger. Only the neck, shoulder, and upper body can be safely annealed at all. The rest of the case must retain its original hardness. The head in particular has to be hard, which is why the manufacture of good brass requires enough draws to work-harden the head. The head (especially) can’t be safely softened, so the annealing absolutely must be confined to the other end, a process that’s ticklish enough with a case as long as the .30-06 and immeasurably trickier with most handgun cases and very short rifle cases. Any annealing of the head is too much.

But the neck is easy to overanneal, too. Get it too hot, which makes it too soft, and it’s too weak to grip the bullet as tightly as it should

Quote:
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/...rass-annealing
How do you tell how hot the brass is? Use a temperature indicator like Tempilaq. Tempilaq is a special sort of "paint" that is designed to melt at a very specific temperature. Get some and use it. Use some 450 degree Tempilaq on the case body to make sure it does not overheat, and use some 700 degree Tempilaq on the neck to make sure it reaches the required temperature. It's not worth the risk of guessing.

Quote:


If you have any specific questions I'll be happy to answer but to write in detail all I have found while anneal and testing different ways to anneal would take more time then I have right now .

Metal

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 10:04 PM
Good info. I have a few drills and more sockets than I can count. I'll be sure to anneal with the lights off and rotate the case the slowly. When the shoulder is glowing, will it be too hot to just hold the case by hand? Do you see any merit in annealing tumbled range brass before resizing?

My order of 100, tumbled and polished, Lake City 7.62 NATO cases came in today from Brass Bombers. $21.65 to my mailbox and they actually included 109 cases. For $2 more they would have deprimed and swaged, but I'd rather do that myself so I can control the swaging. I sorted them by year. Even though it's unprocessed range brass, just for craps and giggles I measured the cases lengths of the two most prevalent years. Here are the numbers.

LC Headstamp Year Number of Cases

05 1
06 10
09 7
10 2
11 48 AVG= 2.0085" StDev= 0.007"
12 39 AVG= 2.0091" StDev= 0.006"
13 2

I'm only going to load the 2011 and 2012 cases, for the foreseeable future. I have no freakin' clue what the trim length is going to be for these cases. It's going to end up being whatever my Lyman pilot trims to, but can someone tell me what common trim lengths are for .308 brass?

ar15barrels
10-29-2014, 10:39 PM
Good info. I have a few drills and more sockets than I can count. I'll be sure to anneal with the lights off and rotate the case the slowly. When the shoulder is glowing, will it be too hot to just hold the case by hand?


Spin the case at a couple rotations per second.
Apply flame only to the case neck.
Do not apply flame to the shoulder.
By the time the neck just begins to glow the tinyest amount, the whole shoulder will have been annealed as the heat travels very fast through the case.
If you glow the shoulder, you cooked the case.
You won't be able to hold the cases by the case head without burning your fingers.

mif_slim
10-29-2014, 10:44 PM
Load 44.5gr and call it done.

Funny, OP posted the exact bullet I just purchased a few hours ago to try on Varget. haha. I'll have to give this a try. Thanks! :D

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 11:05 PM
Thanks Metal, for once again, posting a very informative link. I agree that optimum temperature is key for the brass to take on the desired characteristic of "softness," based on my knowledge of chemistry (one more class to complete my minor). Out of curiosity, how many more reloads do cases typically get by annealing every 4th reload? I've heard the standard for LC brass is about 7 reloads with no annealing. By the time I'm up to my 7th reload, I'll most likely have Lapua brass by then. How often should quality match brass like Lapua have to annealed, and how many reloads can I expect from them?

Grunt81
10-29-2014, 11:11 PM
Thanks for the details, Randall. Roger that, heat the neck and call it done when the neck is slightly glowing, not the shoulder. I have a Lee hand press I can jimmy rig to my "bench." I can also epoxy or gorilla glue a shell holder onto a stand of some sort and place the case in there, then walk the flame around the neck. Well, since annealing seems to only need to be done every fourth reload, I can take out a drill and a socket for that. My craftsman spins in direct proportion to the amount the trigger is pulled, so getting it to spin slowly should be simple. GTG

23's Dad
10-30-2014, 9:02 AM
I have no freakin' clue what the trim length is going to be for these cases. It's going to end up being whatever my Lyman pilot trims to, but can someone tell me what common trim lengths are for .308 brass?

The "trim-to" length is published in your reloading manual.

If you don't have a reloading manual, ANNEALING IS THE LEAST OF YOUR CONCERNS!!!!!!!:facepalm:

ar15barrels
10-30-2014, 9:57 AM
The "trim-to" length is published in your reloading manual.


The published length is safe for all guns, but most guns can safely use longer cases.
Sinclair sells case trim length measuring buttons to measure a specific chamber and determine the max case length.
You can make your own by slicing off 1/8" of the case neck and then seating that 1/8" long ring on a backwards seated bullet and then chambering the whole thing.
When you remove the tool, you can directly measure the max case length and then trim 0.010" shorter than the actual measurement.

Grunt81
10-30-2014, 11:05 AM
The "trim-to" length is published in your reloading manual.

If you don't have a reloading manual, ANNEALING IS THE LEAST OF YOUR CONCERNS!!!!!!!:facepalm:

I've the got the Lyman 49th edition on the display shelf I put up above my reloading bench :cool2:

Thanks for the reminder that they show the trim length in the manuals. Layma shows 2.005" using Remington cases and Remington 9 1/2 LR primers. That manual seems to show the most loads for .308 than any other caliber. That's a good thing for me.

All of my equipment to reload 308 will be here this afternoon. I put out 20 LC cases from the odd years on my loading block and emptied a spot in my turret for the 308 resizing die. I figure I can practice processing brass on cases that I don't intend to shoot, then be "seasoned" when I load my LC 11 and LC 12 to go break in the barrel.

Let's keep this going. I have Federal 210 large rifle primers (not 210M). Has anyone used the 210s and 9 1/2s? I'm wondering if there is a significant difference in the "hotness" of those primers. I'm already going to cut my book max down by 1.5 grains since I'm using LC cases, but should I bump my max down or up from there due to different primers, or just not worry about it?

All of your knowledge and input is helping me round out my education on loading 308. Keep 'em coming. Much appreciated.

If any of you have plumbing or drain issues at home I can give you advice. If any of you have kids not understanding biology, I can clear things up. If anyone is or has a family member considering joining the Marine Corps, PM me and we can arrange a phone call.

Grunt81
10-30-2014, 11:13 AM
Just came across this. http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

Based on this informal study, I doubt I should worry about the difference between 210s and 9.5s. They seem about the same. I'll just work up my loads from min -1.5 to max -1.5.

I was planning on going in increments of 0.4 grains seated at 0.005" of the lands.

Whichever grouped the tightest from there, I would reload a 5 shot group of it and two more groups at + and - 0.2 grains to try and fine tune.

After that, I was planning on adjusting OAL to try and achieve better accuracy. Load development should be done after that for the Nolser 168 HPBT. I'll shoot the rest at steel, and buy some hunting bullets to start the process over.

Any objections?

Metal God
10-30-2014, 12:15 PM
I would not load below min period . You should not have any issues at min . "IF" your going to have presure issues do to case volume it will be closer to the max load . If for some reason the powder and bullet combo only has 2 or 3 loads available meaning from 40gr to 41.5gr maybe drop your start load a tad but don't think I would .

Grunt81
10-30-2014, 12:38 PM
I'm going to follow your advice, Metal. I'm at work right now but I think 168 grainers over Varget has a bout a 4.7 grain spread from min to max. I'll just start at published min then.

Thanks.

Grunt81
11-09-2014, 5:13 PM
Hey Gents,

I pick up my rifle in a week and will take it to the range to break in the barrel in two weeks. I'm planning on taking my sweet time and I don't mind if I'm at the range from open to close.

I've completely processed about 55 of the 111 cases but have resized all of them. Two were Federal and were way lighter and maybe even shorter than the Lake City. 39 of my processed cases are all LC 12. I had a really nice pile of brass going on by the time I was done.

I had no absolutely zero issues resizing all 111 cases. A few were really hard to resize, I either just backed out and tried again, or backed out and added more lube since I didn't add sufficient Hornady Unique to begin with. My decapping pin stayed stuck in the second case I attempted to full length resize. I should have remembered to tighten it in the die before starting. After I tightened it, It was all good. I lubed the inside of the necks with a q tip and it actually got pretty easy after the die had its own little layer of lube accumulating inside of it. I made sure not to intentionally put lube on the shoulder and I had absolutely 0 dents occur in the shoulder.

The brass was cleaned to begin with, but I wet tumbled after resizing to get the lube off, then went ahead and processed in one shot. Maybe I'm not understanding about chamfering the crimp first, but I didn't do it after realizing it's impossible for my chamfer tool to touch the crimp, it only contacts the flash hole.

After lubing, resizing, and tumbling, I trimmed, chamfered and deburred the case mouth. Then I swaged, then flash hole uniformed, then primer pocket uniformed. I tried to go as deep as I could with the Holland primer pocket uniforming tool. I noticed if I didn't put elbow grease on it, only the outer edges of the primer pocket were shiny from being cut. Pressing hard I was able to make the entire primer pocket nice and shiny on most of them from being trimmed.

After that, I noticed there was still brass shavings in the cases that wouldn't come out by simple tapping. Despite others experiences with wet tumbling after flash hole uniforming, I went ahead and wet tumbled after complete processing to get the brass shavings out (I didn't want them to mess with my weight sorting). I found that the flash holes looked pretty dam identical to how they looked before tumbling. I was going to add a pic but I gave up on getting the lighting right. I'm using the Harbor Freight Rock Tumbler and two different sizes of stainless steel pins, if that makes a difference. No pins were stuck inside the flash hole. They all just flowed out.

I'm relatively happy with how this cheap Lake City brass came out. The average trim length was 2.007" with 97% being within +/- 0.002" in length.

I weight sorted the 39 LC 12 cases I have. Extreme spread of weight was 177.8 to 181.6 grains. I discarded the heaviest and lightest 2 cases. 35 of the 39 were between 179.2 and 181.2 grains. I think that's pretty dam good for machine-gun fired brass. I primed those in order of lightest to heaviest so I'll be shooting (7) 5-shot groups with each case weighing within 0.3 grains of each other and differing within 0.004" in length of each other.

I'll post pics of my groups. I'm planning on shooting 100 rounds at the range so we'll see how that goes. I also have a box each of 180 grain Winchester Power Points and 168 grain Federal Gold Medal Match for comparison. I'll shoot at least a 5 shot group with each of those.

I'm highly considering making my first You Tube video to review the rifle and its accuracy. It's ridiculous how there is practically zero videos dedicated to the accuracy of the Savage 11 Trophy Hunter XP.

As always, any beneficial comments are appreciated.

dwightlooi
11-10-2014, 9:50 AM
I am completely sold on 155 grs vs 168 or 175. With the #2156 SMK you are going to start faster and stay faster all the way to 800 yards vs the 168 or 175. The only problem is that it is a pretty long bullet with a very long ogive, so you won't be seating anything close to the lands if you you ever want it to fit in a mag.

The 155 gr #2156 SMK has essentially the same ballistic co-efficient as the 175 grain #2275 SMK. With 51 grs of CFE223, the 155 is good for 3000 fps out of a 24" Weatherby Vanguard. The powder burns super clean when you load it at or near max. It's a ball powder so it meters superbly and trickles like a charm. Unlike the Berger VLDs and Lapua Scenars, the #2156 is NOT a secant ogive bullet. This means that while it is long, you are going to hit the lands sooner than with a Secant Ogive projectile when seated to magazine length.

The only problem is that it is seldom in stock. So buy and stock them when you see them.

Grunt81
11-10-2014, 10:50 AM
I am completely sold on 155 grs vs 168 or 175. With the #2156 SMK you are going to start faster and stay faster all the way to 800 yards vs the 168 or 175. The only problem is that it is a pretty long bullet with a very long ogive, so you won't be seating anything close to the lands if you you ever want it to fit in a mag.

The 155 gr #2156 SMK has essentially the same ballistic co-efficient as the 175 grain #2275 SMK. With 51 grs of CFE223, the 155 is good for 3000 fps out of a 24" Weatherby Vanguard. The powder burns super clean when you load it at or near max. It's a ball powder so it meters superbly and trickles like a charm. Unlike the Berger VLDs and Lapua Scenars, the #2156 is NOT a secant ogive bullet. This means that while it is long, you are going to hit the lands sooner than with a Secant Ogive projectile when seated to magazine length.

The only problem is that it is seldom in stock. So buy and stock them when you see them.

That's some good information. I'm going to have to look at the ballistics on that bullet. Shooting past 600 yards, even past 1,000 really appeals to some people. I'm not against it, by any means. I'm just focused on this being a hunting rifle where all shots will be within 400 yards. More realistically all shots will probably be within 300 yards or closer since I doubt I'll hunt in wide open areas.

Allow I thoroughly enjoy chasing tight little groups from the bench, what I'm primarily interested in, is how much accuracy can I attain while keeping a good amount of foot pounds of energy on target. Some people (I think Chuck Hawk) think 1200 ft.*lbs. is enough for elk. Others say 1500 ft.*lbs. is needed. I can reliably have 1500 ft.*lbs with a lot of loads and medium to high powder charges out to 400 yards with a variety of 308 loads.

I also agree that CFE 223 is a great powder. I've gone through a couple pounds with my ARs. The powder charges are not economical per round, but they pay dividends in velocity. CFE 223 even outperforms Varget in velocity for some bullets, according to Hodgon's reloading data center.

I'd have to disagree about the ballistic coefficients. A SMK 155 has a BC of 0.450 while the SMK 175 has a BC of 0.505. That's a pretty significant difference. Maybe not so much in shooting trajectory since the 155 is traveling faster and flatter, but it definitely is a huge difference in penetration on large game due to the length and consequential lower sectional density, in my opinion.

I appreciate the input and will test that bullet someday. I'm only going to shoot at 100 yards for the next 6 months or so. Once I get a chronograph, I'll be able to use my BDC reticle reliably and will shoot at paper as far away as I can using proper hunting bullets. Maybe have a showdown between the VLDs and Nosler E-tips. The thought of lead-free meat sounds appealing. Apparantly there are several microscopic lead fragments that appear several inches away from the wound channel when using classic soft points. This was found to be the case using analytical chemistry techniques and deemed unfit for consumption by children in a few states, California included.

dwightlooi
11-10-2014, 4:16 PM
I also agree that CFE 223 is a great powder. I've gone through a couple pounds with my ARs. The powder charges are not economical per round, but they pay dividends in velocity. CFE 223 even outperforms Varget in velocity for some bullets, according to Hodgon's reloading data center.

I'd have to disagree about the ballistic coefficients. A SMK 155 has a BC of 0.450 while the SMK 175 has a BC of 0.505. That's a pretty significant difference. Maybe not so much in shooting trajectory since the 155 is traveling faster and flatter, but it definitely is a huge difference in penetration on large game due to the length and consequential lower sectional density, in my opinion.


A few things...

(1) None of the SMKs are ideal for hunting; they'll shatter and fragment on impact.

(2) Varget sucks. Not because of how much or how little velocity you can get out of it, but because it has serious QA issues from batch to batch. It's so bad that your loads are good only for that one jug you developed them on. Switch to a different jug of Varget and you'll gain or lose something like 100 fps. Same load, same case, same bullet, same primer, same day! It is consistent alright -- until you run out and get another can. That's BS I cannot live with. I ditched it for good old 4064 before CFE223 came along.

(3) I think you are looking at the 155 gr #2155 SMK. The 155 gr #2156 SMK has a BC of .504 @ 2700+ fps. This is essentially the same as the .505 of the 175 gr SMK. Granted, at between 1800~2700 fps it drops to .470 for the 155gr vs .496 for the 175. But, that doesn't happen until a 150~200 yards yards downrange whereas for the 175 you are probably at or near 2700 fps starting out. With the same powder, you get a 250~300 fps head start with the 155... good luck catching up with the 175.

Grunt81
11-10-2014, 4:40 PM
A few things...

(1) None of the SMKs are ideal for hunting; they'll shatter and fragment on impact.

(2) Varget sucks. Not because of how much or how little velocity you can get out of it, but because it has serious QA issues from batch to batch. It's so bad that your loads are good only for that one jug you developed them on. Switch to a different jug of Varget and you'll gain or lose something like 100 fps. Same load, same case, same bullet, same primer, same day! It is consistent alright -- until you run out and get another can. That's BS I cannot live with. I ditched it for good old 4064 before CFE223 came along.

(3) I think you are looking at the 155 gr #2155 SMK. The 155 gr #2156 SMK has a BC of .504 @ 2700+ fps. This is essentially the same as the .505 of the 175 gr SMK. Granted, at between 1800~2700 fps it drops to .470 for the 155gr vs .496 for the 175. But, that doesn't happen until a 150~200 yards yards downrange whereas for the 175 you are probably at or near 2700 fps starting out. With the same powder, you get a 250~300 fps head start with the 155... good luck catching up with the 175.

You're right, I was comparing the wrong bullet. You're talking about the SMK Palma 155 grain. If you're looking to pick some up, Midway USA will have 100 bullet boxes in a week and will ship them immediately. They are taking backorders right now http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482176707/sierra-matchking-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-155-grain-palma-hollow-point-boat-tail?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Thanks for your opinion on Varget. I've never bought any IMR powders when I've come across them but I'll pick some up some time.

And just a word of insight....obviously it's no secret that target bullets shouldn't be used for hunting game you want to eat, as I've state a couple of times, I intend to develop a good lead-free load for deer and bigger....But what about pest or predator control? .308 is oversized for any pest/predator control in my opinion, but I would have absolutely no problem shooting a match king or nosler custom competition or plain jane fmj at something I wanted to kill, but NOT eat, with my AR-15 varmint rifle. .223 is enough gun for a coyote and smaller. Several people have taken deer with AR-15s at 75 yards and closer. I only see the issue of non-bonded, lead- core, jacketed bullets fragmenting at short distances where velocity is still high. A couple hundred yards away and beyond, bullets have lost enough steam to not shatter on impact. Even if you needed to take a 30 yard shot on a coyote, do you think the shattering of the bullet wouldn't kill it? If anything, the fragments become shrapnel. They won't exit the animal, but they will cause massive shock and blood loss. Besides, worse case scenario you miss and the animal charges, there are still 9 to 29 more rounds that can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger. Then again, a coyote is more likely to run than charge after being shot at.

dwightlooi
11-10-2014, 10:34 PM
And just a word of insight....obviously it's no secret that target bullets shouldn't be used for hunting game you want to eat, as I've state a couple of times, I intend to develop a good lead-free load for deer and bigger....But what about pest or predator control? .308 is oversized for any pest/predator control in my opinion, but I would have absolutely no problem shooting a match king or nosler custom competition or plain jane fmj at something I wanted to kill, but NOT eat, with my AR-15 varmint rifle. .223 is enough gun for a coyote and smaller. Several people have taken deer with AR-15s at 75 yards and closer. I only see the issue of non-bonded, lead- core, jacketed bullets fragmenting at short distances where velocity is still high. A couple hundred yards away and beyond, bullets have lost enough steam to not shatter on impact. Even if you needed to take a 30 yard shot on a coyote, do you think the shattering of the bullet wouldn't kill it? If anything, the fragments become shrapnel. They won't exit the animal, but they will cause massive shock and blood loss. Besides, worse case scenario you miss and the animal charges, there are still 9 to 29 more rounds that can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger. Then again, a coyote is more likely to run than charge after being shot at.

It's not the lead. That lead doesn't taint meat in the sense that lead doesn't dissolve in blood and contaminate the game. As long as you don't eat the fragments it's just fine. It's just that 308 is a big overkill for small animals and if you really want to use it for critters a 125 gr ballistic tip or 110 Vmax at high velocities is a better choice. For bigger animals the SMK bullets just don't penetrate deep enough because they break up. They are great for shooting people and snipers have no problems with them. But for animals the 180 gr game king JSP is probably a better choice.

Grunt81
11-10-2014, 11:15 PM
I'm not talking out of my butt, bro. Research it. Microscopic fragments of lead spread several inches away from the wound channel. It takes X-ray light or absorbance spectroscopy or some crap like that in order to see it. Just because you can't physically see it, doesn't mean it's not there....not a big deal for big boys like me, but it's highly recommended to not be consumed by children. I'm not paranoid about lead, but if I'm going to feed my family, I'll go ahead and spend the extra $25 on lead-free bullets.

Once again, thanks for your input on 155 grain Palmas.

Grunt81
11-17-2014, 5:25 PM
Hey Gents. Picked up my Savage today and used my Possum Hollow #5 bore guide and 36" Tipton Carbon Fiber cleaning rod with a nickel plated jag and Montana Xtreme bore brush. All that gear works very well.

The barrel was free-floated from the factory. When I took off the stock to adjust the accutrigger down and put it back on, I noticed that the very tip of the stock was extremely close on one side. A dollar bill still slid through but it really looked as though it was touching. So I took it back off and spent two minutes sanding it down, put it back together, and it is truly free-floated now. The stock definitely feel harder than the stocks on the Axis or Ruger American and stays free-floated when on my Caldwell Shooting Bags.

Randall, good call on the suggested OAL of 2.820". I tested the OAL for the where the ogive touches the rifling and I measured it at 2.852". I was planning on seating 0.030" away from the lands anyway! Haha, I'll experiment from there and will be breaking the barrel in on Friday.

I put on the Blackhawk cheek rest and Hi Viz recoil pad, although the stock recoil pad felt as soft as a limbsaver. I have a limb saver on my 12 gauge and might just put it on since it doesn't add the length of pull as much as the Hi Viz. I also Flitz the bolt and it feels pretty smooth. Not as much as a Howa but maybe it'll close after a couple hundred rounds and a couple more sessions with Flitz.