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Exodus343
10-08-2014, 6:59 AM
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

8mmFMJ
10-08-2014, 7:04 AM
Good read.

NytWolf
10-08-2014, 7:12 AM
Oh yeah? (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/foghorn/rappers-9mm-v-45acp-debate-9mm-rules/)

71MUSTY
10-08-2014, 7:24 AM
LOL all their research comes down to wound paths are similar but 9mm gives more bullets and more bullets means more hits. Plus it is easier to train accuracy with 9mm which again comes back to more hits.

Can't really argue that logic.

p7m8jg
10-08-2014, 7:24 AM
From 9mm to .40 cal back to 9mm again.

What they really need is to become expertly proficient in tactical training. That goes for all law enforcement. The majority only shoot their guns when they have to and that's usually only 2-3 times a year.

Imagine a carpenter using his hammer only 2-3 times a year but being expected to hit the nail on the head every day when needed. Problem is you can't get politicians to cough up the money for training.

Exodus343
10-08-2014, 8:58 AM
Lol that conclusion statement is hilarious

I own all three main calibers, I do still need more time on the 9 tho

JMP
10-08-2014, 9:14 AM
That's just common sense. Your sidearm should be 9mm, if you want more, you step up to the proper tool, a 1911.

steepdrop
10-08-2014, 9:34 AM
Damn , time to get rid of My HK MK 23 SOCOM .45

Jed Meyers
10-08-2014, 9:46 AM
Damn , time to get rid of My HK MK 23 SOCOM .45

Yeah, throw it in the garbage and get a Glock 17, like a normal person.

steepdrop
10-08-2014, 9:59 AM
it was a JOKE

Dutch Henry
10-08-2014, 10:01 AM
I'm betting that the real reason for the change is that too many FBI agents these days have lace on their underwear and can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.

The current FBI decision to replace the .40 with the 9mm seems to contradict the findings of the 1986 Miami Shootout, which caused them to abandon the 9mm in favor of a more potent caliber.

My opinion.

Exodus343
10-08-2014, 10:02 AM
I'm betting that the real reason for the change is that too many FBI agents these days have lace on their underwear and can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.

The current FBI decision to replace the .40 with the 9mm seems to contradict the findings of the 1986 Miami Shootout, which caused them to abandon the 9mm in favor of a more potent caliber.

My opinion.

lack of training is also a huge factor

I shoot probably 300 rounds of 40 each month minimum... on my M&P 40
its a great system imo

thenodnarb
10-08-2014, 10:55 AM
I'd carry a 9 too if I could have 15+ capacity mags.
But since I cannot....460 rowland :D

Bumslie
10-08-2014, 11:35 AM
I'd carry a 9 too if I could have 15+ capacity mags.
But since I cannot....460 rowland :D
I want to convert my 1911 so bad to shoot that.

thegreatcow
10-08-2014, 11:44 AM
I'd carry a 9 too if I could have 15+ capacity mags.
But since I cannot....460 rowland :D

I think that's probably the most frustrating thing for me. The 10 round mag limit makes practice at the range so darn frustrating. I have a USP in 9mm, and 4 10 round mags. Even with 4 mags I spend more time holding my UPLula loader than my gun. Really hope we eventually get this damn mag cap limit removed someday.

bigbossman
10-08-2014, 12:44 PM
I'm betting that the real reason for the change is that too many FBI agents these days have lace on their underwear and can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.


If true, then maybe they should raise the induction standards a bit for new recruits. My 19 year old ballerina daughter runs a full-house 1911 in 45acp, and gives the boys fits in IPSC.

If she can load it, rack it, clear it, and hit the A zone on the run, there should be other young women out there that can do the same thing.

jonzer77
10-08-2014, 1:39 PM
If true, then maybe they should raise the induction standards a bit for new recruits. My 19 year old ballerina daughter runs a full-house 1911 in 45acp, and gives the boys fits in IPSC.



If she can load it, rack it, clear it, and hit the A zone on the run, there should be other young women out there that can do the same thing.


I don't think he was talking about the female agents lol.

followingc
10-08-2014, 1:54 PM
lack of training is also a huge factor

This ^^!

The report states, "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident." With a 15-round mag, that means 3-5 effective rounds are available. Yikes!

Whiterabbit
10-08-2014, 1:58 PM
LOL all their research comes down to wound paths are similar but 9mm gives more bullets and more bullets means more hits. Plus it is easier to train accuracy with 9mm which again comes back to more hits.

Can't really argue that logic.

by this logic, 5.7x28 would win out. No mag coulld fit more 9mm than 5.7, 5.7 recoils less. Both lethal.

popeye4
10-08-2014, 2:09 PM
This ^^!

The report states, "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident." With a 15-round mag, that means 3-5 effective rounds are available. Yikes!

Yeah, which means that many shots hit something else.....

POLICESTATE
10-08-2014, 3:35 PM
This ^^!

The report states, "LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident." With a 15-round mag, that means 3-5 effective rounds are available. Yikes!

So basically they are just spraying and praying.

rdfact
10-08-2014, 4:06 PM
One of the primary reasons I bought a Glock in .40S&W is because I can easily swap in a 9mm barrel and have 2 caliber choices in 1 gun. Living in CA I'm limited to 10 rounds either way so capacity was not an issue.

Victor Cachat
10-08-2014, 4:41 PM
I don't know about stopping power, but I am less accurate with my Beretta PX4 .40 than my Beretta 92SBC (9mm).

rm1911
10-08-2014, 5:40 PM
I'm betting that the real reason for the change is that too many FBI agents these days have lace on their underwear and can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.



The current FBI decision to replace the .40 with the 9mm seems to contradict the findings of the 1986 Miami Shootout, which caused them to abandon the 9mm in favor of a more potent caliber.



My opinion.


In the Miami shoot out the agent was using a 38 special. The assailant was shot and the wound was fatal but not immediately incapacitating. Thus, even though he would die (as the bullet sliced the aorta) he was alive long enough to return fire and kill the FBI agent. The issue then was the 38 special which by any standard is insufficient. Yes, I'm old enough to remember the event AND all the hoopla and research that went into it. (As well as how the NRA donated tons of time and expertise and was majorly helpful only to be screwed over by the Feds and FBI a few years later. Louis freeh, leading candidate for deputy reichsfuhrer!!)

What happened at the time was that they wanted penetration. Also, the only practical 9mm bullet was NATO ball ammo which isn't very effective. You have to remember the state of pistols back then. The military had just very recently switched to the beretta and glocks were really new. Smith owned the relatively new market for auto pistols. The 5906 and assorted models.

Other than that, auto pistols were plentiful but similar. Striker fired ubiquity was still a decade away. Most were da/sa models. Lots of police still carried 357 revolvers and even 1911's. The need/desire for capacity was only just beginning. And at that time bullet design was still not that advanced. Most 9mm jhp failed as they fragmented on barriers or over penetrated. The 357 was super effective on expansion but that was because revolvers aren't particularly sensitive to bullet ogive shape. But autos were. And 9mm bullets, driven over 1200fps acted differently than 230gr 45's at 900fps. So 45's performed much better in all tests, but what the fibbies wanted was 357 (actualy closer to 41 mag) terminal performance in an auto pistol. Thus the mighty 10mm.

Turned out the 10 was all that and a bag of chips, but hard to shoot, hell on guns, and as it turned out, overkill. So they began to load the 10 down to more modest levels. Easier to shoot and train on, more gun service life, and oddly enough great performance. They ended up with a 180-200 gr .40 cal that kinda mimicked the 45 ballistics but in a better package.

Then someone came up with the idea (smith never lost an opportunity to market new guns!! Remember the gun of the week promo they had?? :):) ) that loading he same ballistics in a shorter (ahem 9mm sized) gun would be a winner. And it was.

The 40 was just the evolution of the 10, going the opposite route of the 357 and 44 mags, which took standard rounds and lengthened and magnumed them. The 40 went from "magnum" to "special" :):).

Now, we are blessed that the whole episode, and others, spurred bullet development and today 9 is a very potent and effective round but that's because of bullet design and improvements more than anything. Ballistics for the 9 haven't changed: a 115 at 1200fps. What's changed is the projectile, which makes all the difference.

Had the agent had a round that delivered greater tissue trauma and wound cavity he's probably be alive today. From that standpoint 9 or 40 would work fairly equally. Any differences would be minimal as bullet performance has so greatly improved.

krwada
10-08-2014, 6:42 PM
The standard 9x19 is a very good round.

40S&W == 40 Small & Weak

If I were to go to a 40SW ... I think the 10mm is a better choice.

Otherwise:
9x19 or .45 ACP are the two tried and tested rounds ...

Why shoot anything else on an autoloader pistol?

JagerDog
10-08-2014, 6:56 PM
In the Miami shoot out the agent was using a 38 special. The assailant was shot and the wound was fatal but not immediately incapacitating. Thus, even though he would die (as the bullet sliced the aorta) he was alive long enough to return fire and kill the FBI agent. The issue then was the 38 special which by any standard is insufficient. Yes, I'm old enough to remember the event AND all the hoopla and research that went into it. (As well as how the NRA donated tons of time and expertise and was majorly helpful only to be screwed over by the Feds and FBI a few years later. Louis freeh, leading candidate for deputy reichsfuhrer!!)

What happened at the time was that they wanted penetration. Also, the only practical 9mm bullet was NATO ball ammo which isn't very effective. You have to remember the state of pistols back then. The military had just very recently switched to the beretta and glocks were really new. Smith owned the relatively new market for auto pistols. The 5906 and assorted models.

Other than that, auto pistols were plentiful but similar. Striker fired ubiquity was still a decade away. Most were da/sa models. Lots of police still carried 357 revolvers and even 1911's. The need/desire for capacity was only just beginning. And at that time bullet design was still not that advanced. Most 9mm jhp failed as they fragmented on barriers or over penetrated. The 357 was super effective on expansion but that was because revolvers aren't particularly sensitive to bullet ogive shape. But autos were. And 9mm bullets, driven over 1200fps acted differently than 230gr 45's at 900fps. So 45's performed much better in all tests, but what the fibbies wanted was 357 (actualy closer to 41 mag) terminal performance in an auto pistol. Thus the mighty 10mm.

Turned out the 10 was all that and a bag of chips, but hard to shoot, hell on guns, and as it turned out, overkill. So they began to load the 10 down to more modest levels. Easier to shoot and train on, more gun service life, and oddly enough great performance. They ended up with a 180-200 gr .40 cal that kinda mimicked the 45 ballistics but in a better package.

Then someone came up with the idea (smith never lost an opportunity to market new guns!! Remember the gun of the week promo they had?? :):) ) that loading he same ballistics in a shorter (ahem 9mm sized) gun would be a winner. And it was.

The 40 was just the evolution of the 10, going the opposite route of the 357 and 44 mags, which took standard rounds and lengthened and magnumed them. The 40 went from "magnum" to "special" :):).

Now, we are blessed that the whole episode, and others, spurred bullet development and today 9 is a very potent and effective round but that's because of bullet design and improvements more than anything. Ballistics for the 9 haven't changed: a 115 at 1200fps. What's changed is the projectile, which makes all the difference.

Had the agent had a round that delivered greater tissue trauma and wound cavity he's probably be alive today. From that standpoint 9 or 40 would work fairly equally. Any differences would be minimal as bullet performance has so greatly improved.

^^^^^^^this