PDA

View Full Version : Reloading 158 gr for 38 special


HappyChappy
09-28-2014, 8:17 PM
My Son turned me on to this forum, his handle is "Prophet" from Oceanside. I grew up shooting but around 24 life got to busy but i am back at 58. Anyway, I picked up a Lee 1000 progressive 3 die reloader for 38 and 357 mag. I have 158 grain PRN Berry' bullets; CCI small pistol primers; IMR Hi-Skor 700-X powder. I was going to start off at 3.6 grains of powder, may i get some input? The brass is once fired, by me, my brother who has been loading for 45 years says i do not have to clean them, input please? I am shooting a S&W snub nose revolver. I appreciate any wise info, thank you.

stilly
09-28-2014, 8:20 PM
My Son turned me on to this forum, his handle is "Prophet" from Oceanside. I grew up shooting but around 24 life got to busy but i am back at 58. Anyway, I picked up a Lee 1000 progressive 3 die reloader for 38 and 357 mag. I have 158 grain PRN Berry' bullets; CCI small pistol primers; IMR Hi-Skor 700-X powder. I was going to start off at 3.6 grains of powder, may i get some input? The brass is once fired, by me, my brother who has been loading for 45 years says i do not have to clean them, input please? I am shooting a S&W snub nose revolver. I appreciate any wise info, thank you.

WHOA! You got a Lee Pro 1000 to work? and you are using it for .38/.357??
:eek:
Lemme look somethin up...
For .357 the BoLee shows 5.5gr nothing LESS and nothing MORE. GOOD LUCK ON THAT. And 1.580 = COAL minimum.
For .38 spl the BoLee shows 3.0-3.6 gr so that could work better for you, BUT again, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. COAL = minimum of 1.520.
I would start at 3.0gr or 3.1gr and work my way up.

I am using LEAD data from BoLee and it is on pages 557 and 567 for .357 and .38 spl respectively.

If 700x is ANYTHING like 800x then you best weigh each charge.

One thing I am noticing though is that 700x (in my book is guilty of being a crappy powder if it is close to 800x) is near the VERY bottom of the list of powders to use for this caliber.

I am guessing that you should also be careful of double charges and if you have ANY other powder you can use, I suggest you use it instead. Provided it is pistol powder. WST is even better...

I would double check that revolver, snubbies tend to be .38SPL only SOMETIMES but if you are making plinking rounds, then .38 is what you want to load anyways. Cleaning your rounds- meh, I clean mine, but I am OCD like that. MANY folks clean theirs and SOME folks do not bother unless they need it. It is up to you, but make sure the spiders are out of the shells before you dump powder in them, mosquitos are okay to drop into a shell, but spiders not so good...

Have you ever reloaded before? If not, then you REALLY do need to pick up a reloading book and READ IT. Just the part about reloading though, the rest of it is recipes and data for different calibers.

As for presses, I would have been using a single stage for a .38/.357. Progressive is a bit overkill unless you are shooting a lot of rounds, like more than a couple hundred a week or so.

Anyways, Just my opinion since you asked for it. Good luck and be safe and for SURE weigh each of those loads for .357.

deac777
09-28-2014, 9:16 PM
I've used 700-X for target .38 spl loads for over 30 years. I've had excellent accuracy using a 158 gr SWCL bullet with 3.2 grains for 700-X.

HappyChappy
09-29-2014, 8:57 AM
I thank you both, yes about 35 years ago i loaded much but as i said life got busy, i will take your advice in reading. My Son gave me the powder so I will use it and see. the snub is a 357 mag b ut i am loading 38 and yes i am shooting as much as i can.

rm1911
09-29-2014, 1:48 PM
since it is a 357 and you're shooting 38's, don't shoot lead. plated is ok though. lead bullets from 38 brass in a 357 revolver will leave a nice lead ring inside the cylinder, about 1/8" inside the forcing cone or whatever it's called. and it makes loading 357's impossible without some serious lead removal. and it's not a fun task.

I do shoot plenty of lead but out of 357 brass, which doesn't cause the problem. as for powder, I'm not familiar with 700-x, however, revolver loads are easier in that a nice light load will still shoot fine since there's no slide to cycle. the only problem could be too light a load and a stuck bullet, but that's usually not an issue. the real concern is the double charge, so always make sure you don't.

you'll want to shoot lighter loads out of a snubby anyways as hotter rounds are not so much fun.

maxx03
09-29-2014, 2:53 PM
I checked the Hodgdon reloading site and found that your 3.6 grains are towards the high end of the load data. 3.2 Min - 3.7 Max. You might want to back down to 3.2 and work up.
357 Magnum 4.5 Min - 5.7 Max. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

RandyD
09-29-2014, 5:22 PM
since it is a 357 and you're shooting 38's, don't shoot lead. plated is ok though. lead bullets from 38 brass in a 357 revolver will leave a nice lead ring inside the cylinder, about 1/8" inside the forcing cone or whatever it's called. and it makes loading 357's impossible without some serious lead removal. and it's not a fun task.

I do shoot plenty of lead but out of 357 brass, which doesn't cause the problem. as for powder, I'm not familiar with 700-x, however, revolver loads are easier in that a nice light load will still shoot fine since there's no slide to cycle. the only problem could be too light a load and a stuck bullet, but that's usually not an issue. the real concern is the double charge, so always make sure you don't.

you'll want to shoot lighter loads out of a snubby anyways as hotter rounds are not so much fun.

I partially agree with you. Shooting .38 Special lead bullets in a .357 Magnum chamber does leave a ring of lead that needs to be removed to shoot a .357 Magnum. However, a Lewis Lead Remover that can be purchased at Brownells, makes removing lead from the cylinder and barrel an easy task. http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/lead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx

rsrocket1
09-29-2014, 5:34 PM
Yes, shooting 38's out of a 357 leaves a ring which makes shooting 357's right after the 38's a pain.

BUT, a second or so with a couple of strands of Chore Boy wrapped around a bore mop will take that ring off in about 10 seconds. Less if it is attached to a drill.

I shoot 158g cast lead bullets (Lee 358-158-RF) in my Ruger Service Six 357 magnum all the time and only use 357 cases for really big loads. 5 grains Unique in the 38 special case is a nice stout load (low to mid 900 fps). 3 grains Red Dot for really light load (more in line with factory 38 special loads @ 700 fps).

Just make sure you weigh a bunch of drops to ensure you are really metering the proper amount of powder from your progressive press.

Good luck and welcome back. I also got back to shooting after 20+ years of life, kids, work.

HappyChappy
09-29-2014, 6:08 PM
I want to thank you all very much for the info. My eldest Son is the one that has got me back in again, he shoots a lot. He is "Phophet" from Oceanside, a good man and is about ready to turn 34, time goes by fast. I blinked and he was taller, stronger and better than me. He is diffinitely Someone i am proud of as in my Daughter and my other Son. Thanks again and i will let you know the matters of the loading.

John Joseph
09-30-2014, 6:57 AM
Just to comment, .357 charges in .38 Special cases are a big no-no.

roc_my_tims
09-30-2014, 8:45 AM
Tag for great info

50BMGBOB
09-30-2014, 2:19 PM
I'll chime in with another question. I am about to start loading 38sp for my wife, she wants a light than factory load. I picked up some plated 158gr bullets but having problem finding loading data for them. Lot's of data for jacketed and for cast lead. Where should I start with plated bullets though? with the lead or jacketed or some where in the middle?

Also, I have some Titegroup powder I planed on using with small pistol primers.

maxx03
09-30-2014, 3:13 PM
Bob check out the link I posted a few posts above. There is some good info there. You can use either load data. Just work up. You can't shoot 38 fast enough for the plating to peel.

I'll chime in with another question. I am about to start loading 38sp for my wife, she wants a light than factory load. I picked up some plated 158gr bullets but having problem finding loading data for them. Lot's of data for jacketed and for cast lead. Where should I start with plated bullets though? with the lead or jacketed or some where in the middle?

Also, I have some Titegroup powder I planed on using with small pistol primers.

M1NM
09-30-2014, 3:57 PM
Reloaded 20+ years without cleaning brass. Bought a tumbler last year because I had a lot of dirty range pickup 223.

50BMGBOB
09-30-2014, 5:00 PM
I do use HodgensReloading Data. But like I said, they list cast and jacketed. I have heard some say plated load with lead charges, others say to use jacket charges. Looking for a safe light load for the wife. Even with my reloads, I don't think I ever get to max loads, just fast enough and accurate.

not-fishing
09-30-2014, 6:25 PM
A word to the wise. Loading for 38 spc don't use CCI primers, they're harder to fit in the brass and you have to keep the trigger heavy because they're harder than other primers.

Winchesters primers shoot better, Federal are the softest and load the easiest.

rsrocket1
10-01-2014, 8:07 AM
CCI primers work fine for me in 38 special and all other cartridges. Federal primers are softer which can lead to blowups on the bench, most often with Dillon tube fed primer systems it seems.

50BMGBOB,
You can use lead data for your plated bullets and use the low end data if you are trying to achieve low recoil. You need to list the powders available to you if you want specific advice. Since the 38 special does not need to cycle an action, the load simply needs to be strong enough to push the bullet out of the barrel. I once shot a commercial hard cast bullet (a little on the small side) with a primer only squib and chronographed it at 231 fps. The bullets were not crimped (you don't need to crimp revolver rounds if the load is light enough. My usual load nowadays is 5g Unique which drives the bullets out at around 900 fps and those bullets definitely need a firm crimp. When I shot a few primer only squibs with those crimped bullets, the bullet never left the case.

If you have a choice of powders, choose the fastest ones available to you. A low charge of fast powder like Red Dot, Clays, or Trail Boss will make for a good low recoil load. Slower powders like Unique, 800X or Power Pistol can be used at low charges, but will be very smokey, inconsistent in velocity and leave lots of soot on the cases and gun.

Oops, I saw that your powder is 700X. That would be a fast powder and perfect for low velocity/low recoil loads.

rdfact
10-01-2014, 6:22 PM
I had never heard of lead bullets in .38 cases fired from a .357 causing leading - good to know. I have bunch of lead bullets that I have yet to use. I bought a used Ruger .357 that had a lot of leading. As someone else said, chore boy cleaned the lead out quickly.

HappyChappy
10-05-2014, 6:30 PM
Great info, now to sort it all out. Being that I am just starting up after a long sabbatical from shooting I am doing a lot of investigating first. Today my Son, "Phophet" from Oceanside, and I check out some powder measure from the Lee 1000 disc. We drop 5 consecutive fills as normally would be filled from the 3.2 measure in the disc and the weight was as followed: 1.4; 2.4; 2.5; 1.5; 2.5 grains, what am I doing wrong. He has never used a Lee Progressive so even he was not sure. Anyone have any insight? Also I wasnt sure what was meant by "tag for great info"' am I suppose to do that and if so how or were you just saying this all was great info. The other thing you will find out about me, even though I am good with computers I really have never had a reason to blog or chat on them.

ljnowell
10-06-2014, 3:18 AM
700x does not meter well from any powder measure below about 4 grains. Not Dillon, hornady, or Lee. It is what it is, cornflakes in a can.

Glad to see another Pro 1000 user. My press works great and the priming is exactly as it should be. Make a paper cover for the primer chute and keep it full. Lube the press regularly and it will him along a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HappyChappy
10-06-2014, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the info

Cowboy T
10-06-2014, 12:06 PM
I shoot cast lead in .38 Spl cases in .357M firearms all the time. The one that immediately comes to mind is a certain Ruger Security-Six. I don't get those leading problems that others have mentioned.

As for cast lead in .357M loadings? I do that all the time, too. Again, no leading.

In all cases, my BHN is no higher than 12 (straight wheel weight alloy), using liquid Alox for lube.

pacrat
10-06-2014, 11:51 PM
I've been mixing loads of CAST 38 spl and 357M in a model 19 S&W since the early 70's.

Never had any of the supposedly dreaded lead ring in chamber with "CAST" bullets.

If you buy crap slugs like the Speer "cold formed" bullets, which is sales speak for dead soft "SWAGED" pure lead with even crappier surface lube. And load them higher than 800 fps. YOU WILL LEAD YOUR BORE.

The bullet "alloy" strenght must match the pressure level of the intended load.

JM2c

Bikertrash
10-07-2014, 1:14 PM
I am about to start loading 38sp for my wife, she wants a light than factory load.

I did the same for my wife. What I found that worked well was 3gr of Bullseye with a 125gr plated bullet with an OAL of 1.44" Then I found that 5gr of Power Pistol worked exceptionally well with the same bullet but better accuracy.

rdfact
10-07-2014, 1:30 PM
Anyone ever used these lead bullets or have an opinion on them for .38 or .357?
"38/357 158gr Semi Wad Cutter Bevel Base .358dia hard lead bullet."
2000 bullets for $152 delivered = 7.6 cents per bullet.
https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8973&dir=

ljnowell
10-09-2014, 1:26 AM
Anyone ever used these lead bullets or have an opinion on them for .38 or .357?
"38/357 158gr Semi Wad Cutter Bevel Base .358dia hard lead bullet."
2000 bullets for $152 delivered = 7.6 cents per bullet.
https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8973&dir=


Missouri bullet is cheaper. I ordered 1000 for my mom the other day and they were like 72 or 74 bucks with shipping. You can also order their bullets from powder valley if you were ordering something else b


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cowboy T
10-09-2014, 10:50 AM
WHOA! You got a Lee Pro 1000 to work? and you are using it for .38/.357??
:eek:


Yes, smarty-pants. He probably watched my videos to do it, too. :p :D

I'll chime in with another question. I am about to start loading 38sp for my wife, she wants a light than factory load. I picked up some plated 158gr bullets but having problem finding loading data for them. Lot's of data for jacketed and for cast lead. Where should I start with plated bullets though? with the lead or jacketed or some where in the middle?

Also, I have some Titegroup powder I planed on using with small pistol primers.

I was in a very similar situation. Ended up developing a load with my cameralady in mind (she shoots .38 Spl, too). That load uses a 108-110gr cast boolit, the Lee 358-105-SWC, on top of either 3.9 gr of Bullseye or 4.2 gr of Titegroup. This is a very enjoyable, light-shooting load that tames even a S&W Airweight or Ruger LCR. With this load, she can shoot a couple boxes out of an Airweight and not have her hands hurting afterwards. Out of a 4" bbl Security-Six or S&W M19, the load gets 850 fps, thus replicating the in-flight ballistics of factory .38 Spl loads, without the snappiness when used in featherweight guns. Also, when fired out of a Winchester M92 levergun clone chambered for .38/357, it feels just like shooting a .22.

In your specific case, since it sounds like you don't cast (yet), I'd consider a plated 125gr bullet with a comparably light powder charge, starting from 3.3gr of either Bullseye or Titegroup and working up from there.

ljnowell
10-09-2014, 11:15 AM
Yes, smarty-pants. He probably watched my videos to do it, too. :p :D



I was in a very similar situation. Ended up developing a load with my cameralady in mind (she shoots .38 Spl, too). That load uses a 108-110gr cast boolit, the Lee 358-105-SWC, on top of either 3.9 gr of Bullseye or 4.2 gr of Titegroup. This is a very enjoyable, light-shooting load that tames even a S&W Airweight or Ruger LCR. With this load, she can shoot a couple boxes out of an Airweight and not have her hands hurting afterwards. Out of a 4" bbl Security-Six or S&W M19, the load gets 850 fps, thus replicating the in-flight ballistics of factory .38 Spl loads, without the snappiness when used in featherweight guns. Also, when fired out of a Winchester M92 levergun clone chambered for .38/357, it feels just like shooting a .22.

In your specific case, since it sounds like you don't cast (yet), I'd consider a plated 125gr bullet with a comparably light powder charge, starting from 3.3gr of either Bullseye or Titegroup and working up from there.


Your videos are what helped me decide that obviously these presses aren't the junk people claim they are. Watching you run yours it seemed clear that in the right hands these are great presses.

There is a tips and tricks thread on THR too. Between your videos and that thread I have a press that operates 100%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sunday
10-11-2014, 7:41 PM
Snubbies are really fun to shoot with a mild load!.

J-cat
10-12-2014, 5:45 AM
Reloaded 20+ years without cleaning brass. Bought a tumbler last year because I had a lot of dirty range pickup 223.

Good for you. I stuck a 9mm case in a carbide die after sizing dirty brass. So I guess what works for one may not work for everyone.

16in50calNavalRifle
10-12-2014, 11:19 AM
Just a guess, but in most cases what people are referring to as the ring inside the 357 cylinder is mostly a carbon residue ring, build-up from the shorter 38sp cases. Not lead. I know in my revolvers this is the case. My only leading (and so far, thankfully, it's been negligible) has been at the forcing cone and sometimes down the grooves of the barrel.

Soaking the cylinder chambers in the best carbon solvent, then scrubbing with a good stiff bronze brush or the ChoreBoy copper strands wrapped around an old brush, should take care of most of it. One can get more aggressive (use a drill to turn the rod, use Flitz or another steel polisher), but at the risk of removing metal or otherwise creating wear/tear that is not neccesary to get the cylinders clean enough to take 357 cases easily.

I use only 357 brass, usually with light/moderate 38sp loads, in my two snubbies. This avoids most of the ring build-up. In my Model 66 I use 38sp brass, mostly because I had accumulated a nice stock before I decided to switch to the 357 brass-residue avoidance "model".

So using 357 brass regardless of load is one way to avoid/minimize ring build-up in your cylinders.

Cowboy T
10-14-2014, 8:38 AM
I think the OP's question regarding cleaning the brass might've gotten misinterpreted to mean, "the Evil Ring of Carbon in the Cylinders".

OP, you don't *have* to clean your brass to make good rounds. I know several people who don't and make ammo that performs excellently. However, many of us do so, and it's for a few reasons.

1.) It's easier to spot defects in the used cases when they've been cleaned up. You always want to inspect your cases after their last firing.

2.) Many of us just like the look of new- or new-ish-looking rounds and view it as a point of pride in our workmanship.

3.) With the old steel dies, you could end up scratching up your resizing die. That's not so much of an issue with today's carbide sizing dies, though you might see a few extra scratches over time on your brass cases.

Now, to address the Evil Ring of Carbon in the Cylinders from using .38 Special cases--a totally separate issue--just clean your gun like you're supposed to, and there won't be any problem. Hoppe's #9 cuts right through it, as do other quality cleaning solvents.

pacrat
10-14-2014, 1:05 PM
I think the OP's question regarding cleaning the brass might've gotten misinterpreted to mean, "the Evil Ring of Carbon in the Cylinders".

OP, you don't *have* to clean your brass to make good rounds. I know several people who don't and make ammo that performs excellently. However, many of us do so, and it's for a few reasons.

1.) It's easier to spot defects in the used cases when they've been cleaned up. You always want to inspect your cases after their last firing.

2.) Many of us just like the look of new- or new-ish-looking rounds and view it as a point of pride in our workmanship.

3.) With the old steel dies, you could end up scratching up your resizing die. That's not so much of an issue with today's carbide sizing dies, though you might see a few extra scratches over time on your brass cases.

Now, to address the Evil Ring of Carbon in the Cylinders from using .38 Special cases--a totally separate issue--just clean your gun like you're supposed to, and there won't be any problem. Hoppe's #9 cuts right through it, as do other quality cleaning solvents.

Cowboy T pretty much covers it.

I will add a helpfull tip to #3 in relation to scratching and carbide v steel dies. No lube is needed or required if loading clean brass cases using carbide dies.

If on the other hand you load a lot of "nickle" plated cases, using carbide dies. Over time small amounts of the nickle plating will burnish off of the cases and deposit inside the carbide ring of the die due to the pressure and friction. This will cause scratching of all cases used there after. I use a lube pad to just moisten forefinger and thumb of left hand and super slightly lube the top portion of every 10th nickle case. No problems with nickle transfer since.

JM2c

Cowboy T
10-14-2014, 7:47 PM
Good point on the nickel cases, pacrat. For the bigger bore cases, be they of either type (yellow or nickel-plated), I'll hit 'em with a little spritz of Hornady One-Shot. This is after they're cleaned, and about 5 minutes before I'm ready to actually use the cases. The One-Shot dries in about a minute, and you don't need much. The cases go into the carbide sizing die a lot more easily.