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ansan12001
09-27-2014, 1:42 PM
I would like to start reloading for this gun, here is a link to the model which is the 460V S.W. revolver:


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765656_-1_757771_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y


I have already casted and powder-coated using wheel weight lead. Used Lee mold: 452-230-TC, bullet weight is 240gn. Using brand new Hornady 460 s.w. brass with large rifle primer.

I am hoping someone here can give me some advice on powder, I hope I can use what I already have:
H335
CFE Pistol
Herco
700X
WSF

One of these should work right? Can I please get some baseline numbers, min/max, OAL, etc......I dont want to clear out the range, I just want to shoot the thing from time to time so looking for a load on the lighter side...

CGT80
09-27-2014, 10:28 PM
Herco is the only powder that I know and that might also work. The problem is the huge case volume of the 460 mag. 10 grains of Trail boss would be great under a 230 grain boolit. I cast a 270 grain hollow point plain base. If you shoot plain base boolits, keep the velocity below 1300 or so fps. You can get aluminum gas checks for 45 cal plain base boolits. I tried some in my 460 XVR 8 3/8", but didn't shoot enough to get a feel for the load. It seemed like the 45 colt jacketed bullets were better suited to my 1400 fps mid load.

It is hard to find data for herco. I use it in my 30-30 and 30-06 with cast boolits. Some people really like it in 45 colt, but I don't know how little is too little in the 460. For real light loads, I shoot an RCBS 45 225 RN plain base over 6.5 grains of red dot, but in a 45 colt case. Herco would be great. I have no problems shooting 45 colt then 460 mag. Just clean the cylinder once in a while or keep a brush handy at the range.

Trail boss has a great bulk and low velocity for the 460 case. A5744 will get you light to fairly warm loads, but it is not cheap, it takes more powder weight than trail boss, and it leaves unburned powder in the gun. I use 38.0 A5744 under a 240 sierra 45 colt jacketed bullet and get 1400 fps from a 460 case.

Trail boss at 10.0 and a 270 cast boolit gives me 1,000 fps from a 460 case. My hot load is 45.0 of win 296 and a 240 xtp mag for 1900 fps, or a 300 xtp mag and something like 41.0 grains of 296 and an unknown velocity but it hits steel like a freight train. The last two will clear a range like factory ammo. The 5744 powder is more like a 44 mag, and can be lighter but you might as well use trail boss if you want loads that light.

OAL isn't all that critical with light loads and cast boolits. I use the crimp groove (cannelure) if it has one. The 230 RN boolits get seated about the same as a 45 ACP. The cylinder is plenty long even for the 300 grain boolits. There is a guy here that shoots 500+ grain boolits from his 460, IIRC. The pressure rating of the 460 is so high that the fast pistol powders and light bullets should be no problem, if you have good load data. That is where it got tough. 296/h110 can not be downloaded, other than seating the bullet deep so you don't change the air volume under the bullet. I have not tried seating deep. Light loads don't need a ton of crimp. The recoil won't be much of an issue and most of the fast powders burn with a lighter crimp. Slow powders like 296 will need a good crimp to help the powder burn longer before the bullet moves and to keep the other rounds in the gun from having bullet setback from recoil.

bunny fart loads=45 colt brass and normal 45 colt loads
light loads=trail boss and 460 brass with any jacketed or cast boolit (70-100 percent of case volume (under bullet) may be filled with powder, but don't compress it).
mid to warm loads=Accurate 5744
hot loads/factory=win 296/H110

ansan12001
09-27-2014, 10:41 PM
Thank you very much for the very detailed response, I will bookmark this page as referrence to shooting the gun.....

In regards to the Herco, which I have 8pounds of, if this was you, hypothetically, how many grains would you start at....I believe I read somewhere that someone had load data for Herco for a 250 gn lead bullet with 11 grains, but I cannot confirm that information....I just need some baseline thoughts, if you care to share...
Thanks again!

CGT80
09-28-2014, 8:25 PM
I just did a search for Herco in the 460 or 454 and there isn't much data. One person said they like 10 grains and a 250 grain cast bullet in the 454 case. With the extra air space of the 460, I would guess 11 grains, but I would be hesitant to try it.

If it was me, I would find 45 colt data for Herco and start toward the upper end. If my thinking is correct, the extra air space will create less pressure and velocity. Be sure to have a squib rod handy in case you stick a bullet in the bore. Some powders don't respond well to light loads, but red dot, 231, bullseye, and Herco are good for it and I use them all. The Herco is slower and will give more power. You can also use more herco than red dot for most loads I have seen.

If you can find 454 casull data, it will be even closer to 460 results.

It is possible to blow up a 460 with fast pistol powder, if you use enough. Herco is not at the top end for speed, but it still might be possible to damage you or the gun with enough of it. As long as it doesn't detonate (like 296/110 is rumored to) when loaded too light, you will just have squibs, which are not a big deal IF you don't fire a second round and lodge more than one bullet in the barrel at a time.

Good luck, and post back if you decide to try herco in the 460. It will help others too, as you know how hard it is to find data.

Whiterabbit
09-28-2014, 9:46 PM
I would like to start reloading for this gun, here is a link to the model which is the 460V S.W. revolver:


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765656_-1_757771_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y


I have already casted and powder-coated using wheel weight lead. Used Lee mold: 452-230-TC, bullet weight is 240gn. Using brand new Hornady 460 s.w. brass with large rifle primer.

I am hoping someone here can give me some advice on powder, I hope I can use what I already have:
H335
CFE Pistol
Herco
700X
WSF

One of these should work right? Can I please get some baseline numbers, min/max, OAL, etc......I dont want to clear out the range, I just want to shoot the thing from time to time so looking for a load on the lighter side...

no experience with CFE on down, but I would not be too hesitant to try the H335 if you switched your bullet to the LEE300 with gas check. Which every 45 cal shooter should own, period end of story. (that might be opinion based)

To be fair, I use 4198 which is only "H335 like", not "H335", and only gone as light as 340 grains or so with that powder, however I will likely be trying the 300 grain LEE soon with it. I like it very much in the 460, and though it is borderline too slow, and 335 is a smidge slower still, I'm confident it will work, resulting in simply further reduced loads.

You'll know right away if it will work or not. Load up 5 and shoot them one at a time. If the first couple leave an unburned powder mess in the barrel, stop, you're done. That's what happened with me and 4895 (just too dang'ed slow).

For load data, find 45/70 load data. Any is OK, your gun is good to 65ksi. I suggest going straight to marlin or ruger data however, as the trapdoor loads tend to put insufficient powder in the case. Then take 75% of the charge (reduction in water weight for a 460 case compared to 45/70) and consider that the "de-facto" max load. (it's a soft limit, not a hard limit like a true book load). Then take 10% or so down from that and go. Case fill will be a major factor in your common-sense judgment if you are going down the right path. For every load, no matter what, seat the bullet so the base just touches the powder. Even if that means it is not seated to the crimp groove. This will partition out ignition issues based on poor case fill. I also recommend using magnum primers as ignition insurance.

Other good guides are uniformity of recoil, uniformity of muzzle flash, and of course the standard downrange results. However don't be surprised if at first the results are poor. You are manufacturing your own load data. Chances are you'll work up 10% higher and be right back to where you calculated to begin with.

The only show stoppers are tumbling bullets and non-uniform shooting ergonomics (unburned powder is a big one). I doubt there will be any muzzle flash at all with H335.

I guarantee your primer will not flatten as much as factory hornady loads, and clean brass will fall out of the cylinder via gravity.

----------------

I see this load data:

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=91&Powder=Hodgdon+H335&LoadID=5165

Given my 4198 loads for a 425 grain bullet is 31 grains and I think 38 grains (do not trust that number) for a 340-ish grain bullet, I think 63 for a 300 grain in a 45/70 is about right. That puts a 460 case at 47 grains and a start load at 42. I'd try 40 grains (again, seating the bullet right on top of the powder) and seeing how 5 shot. If no tumbling and no unburned powder, I'd start true load development.

I'd also look for much more "data" (in quotes) online to see what other people load in 45/70 for a 300 grain bullet.

Whiterabbit
09-28-2014, 9:50 PM
That was the long winded answer of insignificant nothings. That gets you a 300 grian lee bullet going 1500-2000 fps. That's not a full power load, but hardly a light load you seek.

The true answer is your bullets are plain base and only suited to 45 colt velocity. I suggest you add trailboss or a dot powder to your repitoire. trailboss will give you endless indoor range shooting (25 yards and under).

It will feel like a waste of gun weight and alloy to shoot such a round since a 3" barrel Blackhawk in 45 colt could do the same thing, but it gets you where you want to be for now.

Truly, I suggest you start casting the LEE 300 and shoot then just faster (just) than the 454 cassul is capable of. This will be (relatively speaking) light, but justifies the firearm and uses it to capability beyond other cartridges, including the cassul.

Whiterabbit
09-28-2014, 10:01 PM
Another tip. Get some .4375" diameter aluminum rod (or brass, or steel, or .375", whatever) and mark it every .1" or so up to about an inch. This is a great measuring tool to see where your powder sits inside the case. Make one for every 2-3 calibers you shoot. (using the real definition of caliber here, the case or cartridge is irrelevant). plunk in case on top of powder and you see how deep you have to seat the bullet to get 100% case-fill.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42587&stc=1&d=1332653438
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42586&stc=1&d=1332653134

Whiterabbit
09-28-2014, 10:06 PM
And since I'm thread crapping on you anyways, I suggest you have a plug machined to replace the brake with a blank. the brake spits lead and is annoying. The recoil is not too bad after you've shot a couple thousand rounds. Less fatiguing (brakes fatigue me...) and doesn't clear the range. deepens the boom and eliminates the concussion. at the cost of increasing muzzle flip a bit. Nothing you can't handle.

ansan12001
09-29-2014, 8:01 PM
Hello all,
Thanks for all the great advice!
So here is what happened at the range today:
Based on info I know of on other .452 applications at 235 bullet weight, I felt that 7gn of Herco was more then safe, even if I had a squib, I can deal with that.....At that charge, the .460v did spit out the bullet but with glorified fart, not big boom and no recoil....So I went up the ladder, one at a time in the cylinder, for safety, until I got to 9gn charge, at that point I knew I wasnt gotta get a squib. Made my way up to 10gn, with light to light/moderate recoil....everything good and felt great, PC held up, no leading. Next session I will start at 10gn and work to 12gn, but I think for my plinking/impress friends with big gun needs, I will stay at 10gn of Herco.....BYW, I used the new Hornday brass (I think the older ones have annealing issues) with Win. Lg. rifle primer...I asked for advice on this setup because the 100 cases were 70 bucks from midway so I wasn't ready to spend more for brass, I already had the primer,powder and mold.

CGT80
09-29-2014, 8:26 PM
And since I'm thread crapping on you anyways, I suggest you have a plug machined to replace the brake with a blank. the brake spits lead and is annoying. The recoil is not too bad after you've shot a couple thousand rounds. Less fatiguing (brakes fatigue me...) and doesn't clear the range. deepens the boom and eliminates the concussion. at the cost of increasing muzzle flip a bit. Nothing you can't handle.

It would be great to have a blank to replace the brake. Do you know of anyone who has made one before? Blanks used to be available for one of the x frames but not the other, and it could be modified to fit.

The concussion is quite annoying, not to mention all the sound being blown out next to you. It is worse for bystanders. I don't shoot hot loads much because I can't tolerate the blast anymore. The recoil was not a problem even with full power loads. My 1400 fps load was fun to shoot at 100 yards to try and hit steel plates, but the blast is still high on that. Trail boss works OK with a 270 grain boolit at 100 yards but 1000 fps seems less than ideal for accuracy at that range. A blank for the barrel might give the gun a nicer personality. I have heard some people say to just remove the brake and run without it, but it looks stupid and I don't know if there is any drawback to it.

OP, that is good to hear that herco is working out. I might try that for grins. Thanks for being the guinea pig.

3RDGEARGRNDRR
10-02-2014, 7:49 AM
460 indoors is just brutal to the ears and sinuses

Whiterabbit
10-02-2014, 9:06 AM
Till you pull the brake. Then it is less noisy and entirely not concussive.