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EMR
09-25-2014, 7:19 AM
Just got into reloading a few months ago with 9mm on a Lee classic turret press with the factory crimp die. Now I'm starting into .38 special for my S&W model 60. I have no clue about this crimp. Too much? Too little? Should I leave it as-is?

If it matters I'm using:
X treme plated 125gr fp
VV N320 4.7gr
1.437" OAL
Winchester WSP primers

Thanks for any insight!

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/31b6463479832a7c5f2e24bf9841a6fa.jpg




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Noonanda
09-25-2014, 7:29 AM
I would say a too much crimp, you only need a slight roll crimp to prevent the bullet from working its way out under recoil. And recoil in .38 special even +P ammo isnt that severe.

EMR
09-25-2014, 7:47 AM
This one I backed off a 1/4 turn:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/f8484465225ba14aae969418c0d1a2f9.jpg

And this one I backed off a 1/2 turn (essentially it's where the instructions state for a light crimp; tighten the die until it touches the bullet and tighten 1/2 turn more) :
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/ebdb20140d366bb776d3a19ef5f8553b.jpg
I honestly can't even tell there's a crimp here with the naked eye. I think I need glasses...


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gregshin
09-25-2014, 8:33 AM
Pull em apart and see if there is a crimp mark.

mjmagee67
09-25-2014, 9:15 AM
First picture a little excessive crimp, second picture looks good for plated bullets, third picture too little crimp. 38SPC tends to shoot better with a heavier crimp in my experience. Large case volume small amount of powder the heavy crimp gets all the powder burning before the bullet is released. Plated bullets aren't my prefered bullet for revolvers, jacketed or cast lead work better.

The bottom line on your heaviest crimp is does it cut the copper plating? If no your probably good.

Carcassonne
09-25-2014, 9:20 AM
This one I backed off a 1/4 turn:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/f8484465225ba14aae969418c0d1a2f9.jpg

And this one I backed off a 1/2 turn (essentially it's where the instructions state for a light crimp; tighten the die until it touches the bullet and tighten 1/2 turn more) :
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/ebdb20140d366bb776d3a19ef5f8553b.jpg
I honestly can't even tell there's a crimp here with the naked eye. I think I need glasses...


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The first picture you posted looks like there is too much crimp for a 38 special - especially with plated bullets. You can see the side on the bullet is crushed. That would be a good crimp for full powder 357 Magnum with jacketed bullets. They should still work, but not as good as a lighter crimp.

Out of the other two pictures you posted, the bottom one with the least amount of crimp would probably work best, but you should check the overall length of the last cartridge in the cylinder to see if the bullet pulled out. If not, than you are good to go.


.

maxx03
09-25-2014, 10:46 AM
You only need enough crimp to remove the bell on the case. Turn down your crimping die until the rounds are able to chamber in your cylinder and you're done.

MongooseV8
09-25-2014, 12:34 PM
I crimp between your first and second. Since that bullet does have a cannelure it might seem like you crimped too much, when in fact its just right. Id back off a smidge from your firts picture.

___M|9||___
09-25-2014, 12:46 PM
Well said

EMR
09-25-2014, 1:13 PM
I crimp between your first and second. Since that bullet does have a cannelure it might seem like you crimped too much, when in fact its just right. Id back off a smidge from your firts picture.


I pulled the bullets to see what they looked like. I'm a newbie but to me the first one does look really deep and the second one looks better. I didn't take a pic of the third crimp but it left a slight line around the circumference of the bullet.


First:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/4f71960e15ee8e2970a3d437a6706b12.jpg

Second:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/25/82a70c83674fb43f9787a3a0b1e7eddb.jpg

I'm glad I asked you guys as this crimping with cannelured bullets for revolvers is entirely foreign to me. I know crimping can increase case pressure but with revolvers you need enough to withstand recoil. I guess I need to head to the range with the micrometer!

Thanks guys!


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Mot Mi
09-25-2014, 1:36 PM
Like everyone else mentioned the first one is over crimped. The secind picture would be a good crimp to start out with. I only crimp excessive if I am running hot 357 loads with blue dot or any other slower burning powder so that all the powder will burn thoroughly before the bullet is set out of the chamber.

bigedp51
09-25-2014, 1:54 PM
When loading plated bullets a only a "slight" taper crimp should be used.

Below from Rainier plated bullet FAQ

Q4. What type of crimp should I use?

A. A slight taper crimp is what we recommend. Lee Factory Crimp Die and NO roll crimps.

Plated bullets only have a thin copper coating over the "soft" lead and over crimping can cause accuracy an leading problems.

NOTE: A taper crimp should only be .001 to .002 smaller than the case diameter of the case below the crimp.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Crimps-3_zps15b1fd66.jpg

J-cat
09-25-2014, 5:18 PM
Why don't you seat them deeper and crimp over the shoulder. That way you won't have to worry about breaking through the plating with too much crimp or the bullets pulling out with not enough crimp.

rdfact
09-25-2014, 5:37 PM
Hope this isn't thread crapping - I thought it was relevant.
Would you crimp any more or less if shooting .38 or .357 in a tube-fed lever gun?

mulyhuntr
09-25-2014, 5:41 PM
I crimp my .38's just enough to remove the bell from the expander die. All of the crimps pictured are too much IMO with plated bullets.

bruce381
09-25-2014, 6:33 PM
first one is just right thats about what all my revolver loads look like, but what do I know 42 years casting and handloading

mjmagee67
09-25-2014, 9:24 PM
first one is just right thats about what all my revolver loads look like, but what do I know 42 years casting and handloading

Bruce for cast bullets I would agree with you 100% , that's what my 38SPC look like, but plated bullets it's a little much, it's one of the reasons I don't use plated bullets anymore, cast coated bullets cost less and shoot as good or better.

Eljay
09-25-2014, 9:41 PM
Traditionally people crimp revolver rounds pretty heavily because there's no real drawbacks (since they headspace on the rim) and there are drawbacks to going too light (unburnt powder). But as noted plated doesn't like a heavy crimp.

So your choices are...
1. Start really light, look for signs like accuracy problems or unburnt powder in the barrel or weird chrono results and if necessary add more crimp. Hopefully you'll find a happy spot before you start over crimping the plated.
2. Use cast bullets for revolver rounds and save the plated for semis. Note that some of the modern cast bullets have coatings that don't like a lot of crimp so you might want to avoid those for the purposes of this experiment.

RR.44
09-26-2014, 6:40 AM
I agree with some above, the crimp on the first picture would be ok for a heavily loaded .357 with a jacketed bullet, but is way too much for a plated bullet in a .38 special, your third pic is what would be more of the norm for a plated bullet.

bruce381
09-26-2014, 11:13 AM
Bruce for cast bullets I would agree with you 100% , that's what my 38SPC look like, but plated bullets it's a little much, it's one of the reasons I don't use plated bullets anymore, cast coated bullets cost less and shoot as good or better.

Yeah I think I agree I should have said to cast boolits with a crimp grove, but that's all I shoot.

EMR
09-26-2014, 2:47 PM
I set the die to light and some ended up medium crimped anyway. I ran 50 rounds and hey all stayed the same OAL. Btw if you guys are wondering why I ended up with plated bullets, it's because it's all my LGS had in stock. So I thought why the heck not.

Thanks for all the insight guys! Now if I could just figure out how to get this charging bar to meter consistently, I'd be a happy camper... Half of them would be fine, the other half would be all over the place.


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Cowboy T
09-26-2014, 7:34 PM
Nothing wrong with plated bullets. Agreed on that second crimp for .38 Special with plated bullets. Now, cast bullets usually have an actual crimp groove in 'em, so I do tend to crimp about like your first one...when there's a crimp groove.

Here's how I do it.

http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/images/38Spl-PowderPuffLoads.jpg

Eljay
09-26-2014, 8:02 PM
Just to reinforce that, I use a ton of plated bullets, you just need to be considerate of their pros and cons when you do load development. Don't over crimp them, don't push them past what the maker recommends.

M1NM
09-26-2014, 10:05 PM
2nd crimp is enough. Screw the center screw down to seat the bullet lower. By using the least belling and crimping your brass will last longer.

Carcassonne
09-28-2014, 3:03 PM
Hope this isn't thread crapping - I thought it was relevant.
Would you crimp any more or less if shooting .38 or .357 in a tube-fed lever gun?


You can crimp more (I would). A lever gun has a stronger/thicker chamber than a revolver. It can handle any increase in pressure caused by a tighter crimp.


.

Carcassonne
09-28-2014, 3:16 PM
I set the die to light and some ended up medium crimped anyway. I ran 50 rounds and hey all stayed the same OAL. Btw if you guys are wondering why I ended up with plated bullets, it's because it's all my LGS had in stock. So I thought why the heck not.

Thanks for all the insight guys! Now if I could just figure out how to get this charging bar to meter consistently, I'd be a happy camper... Half of them would be fine, the other half would be all over the place.


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If you are using mixed brass the height of the case will be different for each piece. If the height is different, the crimp will be different. Set crimp for shortest brass case.

Below are blurry pictures of factory Winchester 38 special 150 grain Lead Round Nose. Notice the heavy crimp.

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b536/carcassonne17/Winchester38spl1_zps9fc9ec2d.jpg

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b536/carcassonne17/Winchester38spl2_zps4b083adf.jpg




.

EMR
09-28-2014, 5:28 PM
^ that makes complete sense as I'm using mixed range brass. Thanks for that logical explanation!

So next question for you gurus: I dropped the charge to the starting point at 4.3 grains of VVN320. I took ten shots at 7yards and most of them ended up what I think is keyholing. At 4.7 grains they made perfect holes. Is the lower amount of powder not allowing the bullet to spin enough for stability?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/28/dcf2f92886eb61d755022c57d2dae6eb.jpg


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mjmagee67
09-28-2014, 7:33 PM
Look at the grease ring, they are nice in round, the elongated tears are cheap target paper.

VooDooV
09-29-2014, 7:35 PM
The first one is nice for tube feed rifle, Though 38sp really does not have much of a recoil to cause the slug to sink.