Shooting advice? (Pics of target)

[KeepItCal]

Hey guys,

This is my second time shooting a rifle so I know I have a lot to work on... just not sure exactly what to work on... :)

Rifle: Savage 111 .30-06 lefthanded

Tried to adjusts the sights at 50M. Got it to the last 3 in the box. Then went to 100M. Every shot I try to get a very clear and solid sight picture on the scope, big inhale and in the middle of my exhale, hold breath, and take the shot. Very slow shots. Keep the trigger pulled back to help manage recoil.
http://i.imgur.com/jbLZ3jvl.jpg

This is what is looked like after 20 something rounds within a single shooting window. The couple in the middle were all from the first few shots. The rest went up and to the right. Any tips? From my reading a rightward group might mean not pulling trigger straight back? Would a hotter barrel walk the round so much? trying to find issues that might explain the groups.
http://i.imgur.com/UJAOrhDl.jpg

Any advice?

[SMarquez]

Practice, practice,practice. Give it time. There are a lot of variables. You haven't told us what ammo you use, wind conditions, type of rest and on and on. As far as your rifle, is it bedded? What is the trigger pull, action screws torqued properly? And yes, a hot barrel can string shots.
If you are concerned about your trigger pull, practice dry firing. You won't hurt anything doing it.
Welcome to a new rifle shooter. If we were perfect at it it wouldn't be a hobby.

[russ69]

The group has a good shape, you just need to shoot a little more and get comfortable. I've seen worse groups from new shooters, yours looks respectable.

[KeepItCal]

Practice, practice,practice. Give it time. There are a lot of variables. You haven't told us what ammo you use, wind conditions, type of rest and on and on. As far as your rifle, is it bedded? What is the trigger pull, action screws torqued properly? And yes, a hot barrel can string shots.
If you are concerned about your trigger pull, practice dry firing. You won't hurt anything doing it.
Welcome to a new rifle shooter. If we were perfect at it it wouldn't be a hobby.

Thanks SM!

-Ammo: I bought these on sale, Golden Bear 145gr FMJ .30-06
-Not bedded, is that DIY-possible?
-Wind was actually going right to left but it wasn't too strong. Haven't the slightest clue on MPH
-Trigger is adjustable accu-trigger. Haven't adjusted it
-Haven't noticed any loose bolts on scope or action

What am I looking for when practicing trigger pulls? Simply no flinching and relaxed even pull?

[rm1911]

Try different target. There are targets designed for grouping. They have grid lines to line up scope. I like the round bullseye targets for shooting my garand and AR since I use 6oclock hold and the big round bull is useful with irons.

[KeepItCal]

I can lighten the pull too. What is accomplished when making the pull lighter? I'm assuming it reduces the window of sights deviating from target?

@russ thank you! I'll take respectable all day!

[KeepItCal]

Try different target. There are targets designed for grouping. They have grid lines to line up scope. I like the round bullseye targets for shooting my garand and AR since I use 6oclock hold and the big round bull is useful with irons.

Noted. I'll look for those next time I'm at my LGS/range. Thanks rm!

[Fate]

If you are using a scope, make sure there's no shadow on one side of your sight vision. Improper alignment can cause your shots to go off target. Look at the bottom set of diagrams (whoever did the graphic, reversed the section titles).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/Fig3-17.gif

[Pthfndr]

....big inhale and in the middle of my exhale, hold breath, and take the shot.

Any advice?

Breath normally. Take shot at the end of the inhale, or end of the exhale (easier as it's a very normal relaxed pause in your natural breathing rhythm). Not in the middle, and don't hold your breath.

[CobraRed]

I teach a lot of new shooters who are new to rifles or bolt-action precision shooting - and you're not far off from the norm.
I'd say with your ammo you might even be better than the norm, as I would never have a new shooter shoot for groups with Russian anything or anything FMJ for that matter.

As others have said, PRACTICE.
My groups are decent, but they are 10's of thousands of slow fired rounds in. Your groups might be better than mine when you're at my point - who knows.

[NorCalFocus]

Noted. I'll look for those next time I'm at my LGS/range. Thanks rm!

No need. Here's a link to a bunch of PDF targets that you can print out at home. I use the medium range with the round orange bulls mostly.

http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html

[shooterbill]

Try some brass cased ammo. The steel cased ammo isn't that good for bolt rifle's usually. You had several pairs close to touching. Make sure your rest and hold are solid. Fire at the end of your exhalation. Don't give up. It will get easier.

[NorCalFocus]

Breath normally. Take shot at the end of the inhale, or end of the exhale (easier as it's a very normal relaxed pause in your natural breathing rhythm). Not in the middle, and don't hold your breath.

I also agree with this. Don't shoot in the middle of a breath. Your shot should fire at the bottom of your breath. Also learn not to muscle the gun. You shouldn't have to force the gun to stay on target.


Get some snap caps or dumby rounds. Dry fire practice inside you home. Put a tack on the wall, lay down on the floor, and just dry fire at the tack. Do that for 20 minutes a day and your shooting will improve.

[KeepItCal]

I'm so glad I came here asking for help. Really appreciate all the advice you guys have given me.

@norcalfocus appreciate the link! Thanks! That makes things so much easier

Will fix the breathing right away too. Didn't mention I was using a bipod for the forend support and my arm coiled under the stock for the backend support.

I teach a lot of new shooters who are new to rifles or bolt-action precision shooting - and you're not far off from the norm.
I'd say with your ammo you might even be better than the norm, as I would never have a new shooter shoot for groups with Russian anything or anything FMJ for that matter.

As others have said, PRACTICE.
My groups are decent, but they are 10's of thousands of slow fired rounds in. Your groups might be better than mine when you're at my point - who knows.

That's awesome, thank you. On the ammo, I'll make sure to save the rest of the Russian stuff for friends/family that would be interested in giving it a go. Time to step up and buy more appropriate ammo. What would you recommend? What should I be looking for regarding companies, types of rounds, and grain combinations? Keeping in mind ultimately building up my abilities for hunting if that changes anything.

[NorCalFocus]

Hunting...then a 180 ish grain premium hunting round.

[IEatZ28]

That's not bad! I'm far from being a great shooter, but I also agree, practice! When I started my targets looked like I shot it with buck shot at 50m hahah but now the rounds are touching at 100m.

[JMP]

Next time you are at the range, use the highest magnification possible and dry fire at the target. When the trigger breaks, does the reticle move? If so, you need to do away with this. What seems like very small movement in close quarters greatly magnifies with distance.

Also, if you set a 50 meter zero, you will need to adjust down at 100 meters since the scope sits above the rifle, which could be why you are high at 100 meters. For 30-06, it would be most common to set your zero at 100 yards or 100 meters, so that you would generally always be dialing up as 30-06 would rarely be used up close.

Wind, not such an issue at 100 meters with 30-06. Ammo, just find something reasonably consistent and stick to the same label for now. Something very common like the American Eagle redbox stuff will generally group inside 1MOA if you are doing everything else well from a good rifle. Some of the cheaper FMJ ammo will do surprisingly well at this range; it's just that many do not realize this since by the time they have progressed in skill and gear they are on to match grade ammunition or handloaded ammo with premium bullets. Perhaps someone can suggest a consistent reasonably priced factory ammo, then stick to it a while. The cheap bullets perform exponentially worse with distance, and some labels are simply deplorable, so ask around on that.

Then also, depending on the rifle, 30-06 can be a bruiser, so flinch can sometimes be an issue. Inserting a dummy round in your magazine can help keep you honest while starting.

[Stockton]

Dry fire. Dime and washer. In front of mirror. Sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze, and follow through.

[SMarquez]

Thanks SM!

-Ammo: I bought these on sale, Golden Bear 145gr FMJ .30-06
-Not bedded, is that DIY-possible?
-Wind was actually going right to left but it wasn't too strong. Haven't the slightest clue on MPH
-Trigger is adjustable accu-trigger. Haven't adjusted it
-Haven't noticed any loose bolts on scope or action

What am I looking for when practicing trigger pulls? Simply no flinching and relaxed even pull?
If you have decent mechanical/woodworking skills and pay attention to detail you can do your own bedding. There are lots of videos on Youtube by DIY'ers that you can see the process.
If you can find someone with experience to look over your shoulder, that would be better. I've done 5-6 when I first got into shooting and got all my instruction from books and articles since there was no internet back then

[CobraRed]

I'm so glad I came here asking for help. Really appreciate all the advice you guys have given me.

@norcalfocus appreciate the link! Thanks! That makes things so much easier

Will fix the breathing right away too. Didn't mention I was using a bipod for the forend support and my arm coiled under the stock for the backend support.



That's awesome, thank you. On the ammo, I'll make sure to save the rest of the Russian stuff for friends/family that would be interested in giving it a go. Time to step up and buy more appropriate ammo. What would you recommend? What should I be looking for regarding companies, types of rounds, and grain combinations? Keeping in mind ultimately building up my abilities for hunting if that changes anything.
For hunting I'd agree find some decent 180+ gr soft point or whatever your choice is going to be for hunting then get your dopes down pat - 100, 200, 250, 300 ect. Get to the point where adjusting for environmental will get you something close to a cold bore shot at each distance.
Steel case or FMJ in general is fine for shooting, learning basics and having fun. It's just not something you'd ever want to shoot groups and judge your shooting with.
Lots of rounds and lot of $ when ur buying ammo retail. Shoot plenty of that steel, get used to that recoil (I sneak in the safety on new shooter's rifles while they are shooting to watch for flinch or tensing up), get real comfy with your cheek weld to the stock. Close your eyes and come down on the stock for your normal cheek weld and open your eyes and see if your scope eye relief is good and/or your eye elevation to scope picture. If it's not, adjust - add pads ect.

Shoot lots of hunting rounds, learn your dopes and how to adjust for wind. Learn to spot your own shots in order to learn why you miss (hard with a 30-06 and no brake) or at least call your shots (saying where u missed before checking or asking your spotter).

Then buy some Federal Gold Sierra Match 168 or 175gr or Black Hills and shoot for groups at 100 or 200 to see how far you've come.

[bubbala]

yes (rapid fire) can change your p.o.i.. my savage 111 hunter will move 1" @ 100 ydrs if i let it get to hot.:eek:
since changed to a bull barrel.

[Bldrinker]

Clean the rifle very well. I am also fairly new to large caliber bolt action. My groups look similar to yours. After I cleaning it, my groups shrunk by a huge margin.

[KeepItCal]

If you have decent mechanical/woodworking skills and pay attention to detail you can do your own bedding. There are lots of videos on Youtube by DIY'ers that you can see the process.
If you can find someone with experience to look over your shoulder, that would be better. I've done 5-6 when I first got into shooting and got all my instruction from books and articles since there was no internet back then

I've done some research but having some guidance would be ideal but I won't be able to afford an aftermarket stock right now so I'd look into bedding my factory synthetic stock. Would that still be worth doing?

[KeepItCal]

@cobrared Very detailed advice! I love it. I've been practicing dry firing and your advice I can incorporate instantly! Thanks!

I was shooting the Russian stuff and I actually did have some failures with the ammo. One had the primer hit clean and didn't fire. Also, this is how new I am to rifles... I'd chamber a round, or at least I thought I did and pull the trigger. Flinching definitely happened for a couple times but the other times I was happy with myself. Battling with anticipation/flinching with pistols so it's one of the habits I'm def serious about dropping.

@bubbala thanks for the tip. I was actually pretty good about keeping it calm. Limited myself to 3 shots until I was allowed to go check my target up close. But once at 100m I just started shooting nonstop. Will have to stay more disciplined

@bldrinker will do! Rifle is still quite new, had about 10 rounds through it before this range visit. Cleaned it nice and looking forward to getting out there again once my schedule clears up a bit.

[CobraRed]

Allow yourself to be frightened by the rifle firing. Being startled usually means you wern't anticipating the shot and likely wern't tensing up. Coupling this with the correct stabilization muscles still positioning and loading the rifle correctly can be the key for some.

[Mute]

Several things, but one at a time:

- How are you shooting the rifle - bench, prone, sandbag....?
- Equipment used, i.e. slings, bipods, benchrests...etc.?
- Do you know about Natural point of aim and how to achieve it?
- Do you know if you're following through with your shots?

There can be a number of things that contribute to your shots drifting off. I suggest going to the range with an experienced shooter so they can help you identify the factors that may be contributing to your shooting pattern.

[REDdawn6]

I have read after you get your rifle dialed in, not too clean the barrel. Until it gets real dirty, then get back on zero. Maybe someone else who knows better can chime in.

[vliberatore]

Clean the rifle very well. I am also fairly new to large caliber bolt action. My groups look similar to yours. After I cleaning it, my groups shrunk by a huge margin.

That sounds more like an issue with the person behind the trigger than the gun. Many (most?) precision shooters prefer to shoot a dirty barrel

[Bldrinker]

That sounds more like an issue with the person behind the trigger than the gun. Many (most?) precision shooters prefer to shoot a dirty barrel

Guess i'm ok then, because i'm far from precision at this point! How many rnds do you consider dirty?

[Mute]

Guess i'm ok then, because i'm far from precision at this point! How many rnds do you consider dirty?

Not important. I might clean the bolt and chamber but I don't touch the bore until I start to notice a degradation in accuracy.

[mark501w]

Your 11/2" high & 11/2" to the right for that load.

[Nightfall]

Breath normally. Take shot at the end of the inhale, or end of the exhale (easier as it's a very normal relaxed pause in your natural breathing rhythm). Not in the middle, and don't hold your breath.

This. Holding breath seems like it would help, but doesn't. Deep breaths actually accelerate your heart rate, then holding the breath creates a tension in your body. So there you are with your heart pumping harder while all tensed. It can even tense your arms as well and help pull the rifle.

Relax, be calm, breathe easy and calm your heart to a restful rate.

Squeeze the trigger, and get used to the feel of how far it travels before firing so you will not be surprised by this. you don't want to wonder when the rifle will actually fire, you want to know in your mind that the feel of it corresponds to when your mind knows it.

Don't dry fire the rifle into an empty breach. Load a fired empty cartridge in there that has a spent primer in it and dry fire into that. Your firing pin doesn't like to be dry fired without support.

Are you a good steward of cleaning? If you know how, disassembly of the trigger assembly for cleaning and fresh lubrication can help get better, more consistent results from the trigger. I am not sure I would adjust the pull weight yet. While it's disassembled, evaluate the surfaces that move against one another. Is there any unnecessary rough areas? Burrs? Clean and smooth is good. Lube where it's necessary is also good. Read up on what you may be able to do to improve this.

Learn to get used to seeing the sight picture through your scope. Look at the target. Look at the reticle, or with sites the front and rear alignments with the target. Think of your eye relief, maybe it needs adjusted. Think of how your cheek feels against the stock, if it doesn't feel planted, maybe a cheek rest will help you. You want this position and posture to feel good and natural.

It is like a martial arts stance, you practice and develop the muscle memories and it comes. You just have to do it, over, and over.

145 grn is a light bullet for that range. 165 to 180 is more stable and wind resistant, but you may see a bit more bullet drop at range depending on the load. It is true that you'll likely get better results from brass cartridges, and those you'll be able to custom load later if you like.

See, it is a lot of things. In ensemble we have to isolate and eliminate them all as much as possible to shoot with high accuracy at long range.

Looking at your targets, you said the breeze was right to left yet many of your rounds landed right, so you may be holding right some of the time. Some of the time you are on bull.

In most all shots you took, at that range the target if alive when you started would be suffering severe injury or death. Keep up the good work!

[LynnJr]

Simply flip your existing targets over and they will be all one color white.
Now take a pen and make the smallest possible dot that the crosshairs in your scope don't fully cover up.This will give you your smallest possible point of aim.
The tighter you aim the smaller your groups will be.

On the wind direction a let off will allow your shots to go in the opposite direction of the prevailing wind.

You don't necessarily need heavier bullets just higher quality ammunition.

On the trigger pull lighter triggers upset the gun less than do factory triggers.If your yanking on a heavyweight trigger to get the gun to fire it is ruining your groups.

Never put anything on or in your trigger except lighter fluid.It will wash away minor debris and has a small lubricating ability as well.

[3006mv]

dial your scope in again at 100 yd

[Kappy]

Are you standing, kneeling benched...?

[Mr. Gillious]

yeah, breathe normal.

don't hold your breath, but take the shot at your natural respiratory pause. Don't anticipate the shot. just squeeze the trigger slowly while focusing on the best sight alignment.

I'd also say don't shoot a .30-06. Get something where you can shoot more rounds off of so you can practice more. Once you feel like you've mastered the fundamentals, you'll be more consistent with every other rifle you shoot.

[Dinosaur Jr]

Breath normally. Take shot at the end of the inhale, or end of the exhale (easier as it's a very normal relaxed pause in your natural breathing rhythm). Not in the middle, and don't hold your breath.

Exactly what I was going to say. Don't hold your breath!

Fundamentals first.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml

[KeepItCal]

Are you standing, kneeling benched...?

Hey kappy, I was shooting from a bench. I was using a bipod and no bags.


Thanks guys for all the tips. I haven't gotten a chance to go back out there but I've been taking notes and can't wait to range time #3!

[Kappy]

Hey kappy, I was shooting from a bench. I was using a bipod and no bags.





Thanks guys for all the tips. I haven't gotten a chance to go back out there but I've been taking notes and can't wait to range time #3!


Ah. So there are a lot of guys who can give you better info than me. Pretty much everything has been said.

I will say this, though: I started with a 10/22. It isn't a terribly accurate platform, but that isn't my point. The thing which really changed my shooting is when I stopped shooting 100 rounds in an outing. That used to be my minimum. Pop off 100 rounds of CCI every Sunday.

I eventually started to restrict myself to twenty rounds. That's rimfire, mind you. It makes you really, really think about each shot.

Plus, I started aiming at smaller targets. Aim small, miss small. I usually use no bigger than a 1" or .5" shoot n see.

My best target from last Sunday (haven't processed the ones from yesterday):
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/27/suhuvevy.jpg

5-shots at 100yds with a .308. The elements were all in my favor. Hand loads make a world of difference.

A lot of guys can easily do better, but I was satisfied.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pewpew5.56]

Work on your breathing, also are you loading your bipod?

[hambam105]

Vertical stringing is often associated with breathing, especially in the middle of the 10 ring. Horizontal stringing often associated with shooter's support position. Without knowing & seeing more it a guess at best.

I know it's real difficult to go the range again and do some shooting, but it appears you will just have to take one for the team. Ha Ha. Good shooting by the way.




So let's see...1 rifle doctor's office visit plus...