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View Full Version : WTF is going on with dealers and OLLs?


4thSeal
02-28-2008, 10:12 AM
Ive called 3 gun shops now that ive done buisness in the past with... heavy buisness... and none of them will do OLL transfers now. Even the place I got my stag lower from 6mo ago wont do it... they will only do some bs vulcan lower/rifle, the epoxyed mag lower...

Any place left in CA that will do a OLL transfer / california ?

thmpr
02-28-2008, 10:13 AM
I wonder whats going on lately with the FFLs.

Bill or Gene? Any new info?

viras
02-28-2008, 10:19 AM
4thSeal - where are you located?

4thSeal
02-28-2008, 10:20 AM
Central Valley... Manteca

4thSeal
02-28-2008, 10:36 AM
Make that 4, Bullseye just said no we have a tendency to not do OLL transfers... which is wierd cause they are selling Sig ARs with the bullet button on here...:confused:

jandmtv
02-28-2008, 10:41 AM
maybe the DOJ is putting pressure on dealers? scare tactics?

Gunaria
02-28-2008, 10:42 AM
Looks like you need to take a drive to Irvington Arms in Fremont.

CALI-gula
02-28-2008, 10:44 AM
I've experienced no trouble at all; if anything, I have seen more and more dealers begin doing OLLs/OLRs since about August 2007. I can think of at least 5 that were adamant in not doing them a year ago, and now regularly stock them in display cases - everything from AR to AK, with a few G3, SIG, HK, real off-list variations and/or clones of listed, among others.

Sorry - this is the 3rd or 4th post like this in the past couple of weeks, noting past-OLL/OLR friendly dealers now copping a stance against, and call me lucky, but I just haven't seen that disparity in any form from any dealers. I only have seen favorable growth towards OLLs/OLRs, not against. :confused:

.

Fitz87
02-28-2008, 10:54 AM
Try irvington arms or city arms, they both stock ar-15 parts and last time I went to both places, there were a few on display

DedEye
02-28-2008, 11:36 AM
I can think of at least two FFLs in Santa Barbara who once sold/transferred OLLs and now refuse to touch them, one of them stopped in the last few months even.

Baron
02-28-2008, 11:40 AM
I was told by an Employee at DOM's in Livermore that they actually stock stripped lowers. They also told me that they would do online transfers for california complient rifles too. I was asking about having an AK shipped to them from DD's Ranch...

The only draw back is they said they won't start the 10 days till after they recieve the firearm. I guess that's when they will let you fill out the DROS...

But still it's right in my backyard, so I'm not complaining

Try giving them a call and ask, otherwise Irvington Arms in Fremont is the next closest...

aplinker
02-28-2008, 11:40 AM
Based on what is the only thing that really matters.

I don't get why people are all up in arms that places won't do them. It's the personal choice of the individual FFL.

4thSeal
02-28-2008, 12:32 PM
Based on what is the only thing that really matters.

I don't get why people are all up in arms that places won't do them. It's the personal choice of the individual FFL.

Maybe because it is legal ... but they wont do it. Up in arms not at the stores that wont as much as the unfair / scare whatever tactics DOJ is putting on the FFLs.

I don't know about most people but I don't like being told I can't do something lawful.

-hanko
02-28-2008, 12:40 PM
Maybe because it is legal ... but they wont do it. Up in arms not at the stores that wont as much as the unfair / scare whatever tactics DOJ is putting on the FFLs.

I don't know about most people but I don't like being told I can't do something lawful.
No one's verified any unfair/scare doj tactics, at least lately.

Any business can decide what it will and will not sell. Your choice is to stew about it or spend your money with another dealer, which should not be too difficult.

-hanko

emc002
02-28-2008, 12:45 PM
Any place left in CA that will do a OLL transfer / california ?

Sonora, Jackson or Sacramento are your closest choices now that I'm aware of.

Make that 4, Bullseye just said no we have a tendency to not do OLL transfers...

Soldier415? Is this true?

4thSeal
02-28-2008, 12:51 PM
Not stewing or upset or anything, just wasnt expecting places to not sell something that is legal to do so...

Thanks

moulton
02-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Sonora, Jackson or Sacramento are your closest choices now that I'm aware of.



Soldier415? Is this true?

From what I have been told we are not doing any OLL's yet, Soldier415 is still trying to get Bill to handle them.

Ballistic043
02-28-2008, 1:02 PM
Maybe because it is legal ... but they wont do it. Up in arms not at the stores that wont as much as the unfair / scare whatever tactics DOJ is putting on the FFLs.

I don't know about most people but I don't like being told I can't do something lawful.

the same reason some people dont buy OLL's in the first place. sure its legal, sure its legitimate. but some people simply cant afford to pay to prove that the rifle or the transfer is legal, if the question ever comes up and you are charged or prosecuted. its not the law that scares people, its the ignorance surrounding it.

a gun with loopholes surrounding its ownership, is a very sensitive area for any gun shop owners.

Nodda Duma
02-28-2008, 1:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP's question concerns dealers that *have* done OLL transfers in the past but do not do them now.

-Jason

palakaboy
02-28-2008, 1:21 PM
ammo bros...

cause bros come before hos...

mdhpper
02-28-2008, 1:36 PM
I believe the reason we are doing the SIG556's is because SIG is backing up the gun with legal fees if the DOJ/Police determine in their all knowing opinion that they are not kosher. ;)

I wasn't thinking about purchasing one, but if thats the case It will be the next rifle I DROS :coolgleamA:.

moulton
02-28-2008, 1:50 PM
I wasn't thinking about purchasing one, but if thats the case It will be the next rifle I DROS :coolgleamA:.

dont quote me on that, I cannot found where I saw that posted so I am retracting that statement

****EDITED TO ADD****
The Rifle comes from SIG with a letter guarenteeing that the rifle is in a legal configuration, more details to follow when we get them in.

DedEye
02-28-2008, 1:59 PM
No one's verified any unfair/scare doj tactics, at least lately.

Any business can decide what it will and will not sell. Your choice is to stew about it or spend your money with another dealer, which should not be too difficult.

-hanko

According to one FFL I spoke with who used to do OLLs, he stopped because the ATF took 7 months to renew his FFL when they saw he was doing OLLs. Why they would care, I don't know, but I suspect FUD and a cop-out lie on behalf of that FFL may be to blame as he may have wanted to pass the buck for his personal decision.

blisster
02-28-2008, 2:14 PM
I jsut DROS'd a CMMG stripped lower at City Arms in Pacifica last week. They'd had several in stock, as well as Stag and Mega lowers.

Hopi
02-28-2008, 2:38 PM
the same reason some people dont buy OLL's in the first place. sure its legal, sure its legitimate. but some people simply cant afford to pay to prove that the rifle or the transfer is legal, if the question ever comes up and you are charged or prosecuted. its not the law that scares people, its the ignorance surrounding it.

a gun with loopholes surrounding its ownership, is a very sensitive area for any gun shop owners.

An OLL IS NOT "a gun with loopholes surrounding its ownership". OLLs are the result of a legal decision that specifically excludes them from listed and registered AWs. The original intent of CA AW bans was to take those listed firearms out of consumer circulation. The laws did that. It then became the responsibility of the DOJ BOF/AG to keep current a list of AK/AR weapons, they didn't do that. In effect, the DOJ/AG has authorized their ownership by NOT listing them when they could've. OLLs do not violate the intent of the law.

It could be argued that when IGGY 'approved' listed AWs as legal, he violated the 'intent' of the law and created a loophole for Evan's Gunsmithing...

vf111
02-28-2008, 2:43 PM
a gun with loopholes surrounding its ownership, is a very sensitive area for any gun shop owners.

It's not a loophole when the letter of the law is being followed. As members of the great unwashed masses, that's all we can do since we can't read minds or have crystal balls to know what our "lawmakers" intent was/ are.

philthy209
02-28-2008, 2:46 PM
I live in manteca and am haveing a hell of a time even getting someone to PPT a lower:(

aplinker
02-28-2008, 2:54 PM
I'm fully aware that it's legal. My statement was made to imply that perhaps something has changed with the information the DOJ is giving to FFLs, as mentioned about an FFL recently.

You're not being told you can't do something lawful. You're being told you can't do something lawful in their store. Just because it's lawful to buy lamb doesn't mean a butcher should have to provide it to you.


Maybe because it is legal ... but they wont do it. Up in arms not at the stores that wont as much as the unfair / scare whatever tactics DOJ is putting on the FFLs.

I don't know about most people but I don't like being told I can't do something lawful.

Hoop
02-28-2008, 2:59 PM
a gun with loopholes surrounding its ownership, is a very sensitive area for any gun shop owners.

There aren't any loopholes around it, whoever says that is just plain stupid.

It's all about configuration, you can make a shotgun or mini-14 illegal too you know.

Hopi
02-28-2008, 3:02 PM
I'm fully aware that it's legal. My statement was made to imply that perhaps something has changed with the information the DOJ is giving to FFLs, as mentioned about an FFL recently.

You're not being told you can't do something lawful. You're being told you can't do something lawful in their store. Just because it's lawful to buy lamb doesn't mean a butcher should have to provide it to you.

Sure, but if the DOJ confuses FFLs and spreads FUD thereby threatening potential prosecution of the 'Butcher' for selling the 'meat', then questions need to be asked and answers should be expected.
Effectively, the DOJ is implying that it isn't legal, otherwise they would implicitly acknowledge that these OLLs DO NOT violate any standing laws.

Two Shots
02-28-2008, 3:09 PM
I live in manteca and am haveing a hell of a time even getting someone to PPT a lower:(

Have you tried Sierra sports in Modesto? Last time I was there they were selling OLL's.

Zeroit
02-28-2008, 5:22 PM
Last month my local FFL stopped all OLL transfers as well as any AR "style" rifle regardless of the configuration. They said it was because of people driving 4 or 5 hours (we're pretty remote) to DROS up to 20 OLL's at a time, a visit by a LEO (no details) and warnings from other non OLL friendly FFL's that they were jeopardizing their license.

Last fall as they were becoming increasingly wary of OLL's, they told me they had called DOJ and at that time were told if they're going to transfer them be sure to warn the customer to be aware that depending on how the OLL was configured they could be committing a felony. They had been handling my transfers for about a year and although with each DROS I spent some time discussing OLL builds and explaining the ins and outs of the law I pretty much figured it was going to come to an end as traffic picked up. Feeling they were, in a sense, doing me a favor and knowing they weren't making anything doing my OLL transfers I did buy rifles off their racks as well, hoping to show support and keep the window open, but it's a mom and pop operation and I think the sheer volume of FUD scared them off. After the dust settles I'll go back in and try to find out "the rest of the story".

I don't know where the "no AR style" transfer policy came from, probably "series" FUD from somewhere. Last year when I had my CA XCR sent to them for tranfer they called the DOJ and were told it wasn't legal, they called me and said they were sending it back. I explained the BB fixed 10 rd mag to them and they called the DOJ back and were told okay to DROS. At that point I'm sure the guy tried to drop the mag with his finger and couldn't and only later on figured out how a BB worked. When my 10 days were up and I picked up the rifle the guy laid it on the counter, took out a pen, released the mag and told me this isn't really a fixed mag. Again I explained the whole bit about his pen being a tool, etc., I could tell he wasn't really buying it, but they did complete the transfer.

Too bad they couldn't have waited a month longer.... now I've 3 orphaned uppers.

DB2
02-28-2008, 5:32 PM
Have you tried Sierra sports in Modesto? Last time I was there they were selling OLL's.

Unless you want a Vulcan epoxied mag lower. The new owners want next to nothing to do with them.:(

siliconphreak
02-28-2008, 6:23 PM
Irvington Arms seems to be your best bet. I'm in the manteca area also, Irvington seem to be the closest place to get an OLL without any hassle.

Ballistic043
03-04-2008, 5:26 AM
call it what you want, but it is a loophole situation. And the fact remains that some gun shop owners dont want to hassle with the obstacles of proving legitimacy, even in a remote possibility. some people, NON gun shop owners, are still being hassled and prosecuted for a legally configured AR15!

like i said, its not the law its the ignorance surrounding it.

there are many places to get an OLL so i dont see why the argument is so prevalent.

SemiAutoSam
03-04-2008, 6:01 AM
TO anyone that wants to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Print out the Flow Chart and spread it around to all of the FFL's You would normally do business with and all of the LE Agencies you happen upon.

Since Sacramento DOJ (Dept of Joke) wont do their job we as a community will need to inform those that are ignorant of the laws.

call it what you want, but it is a loophole situation. And the fact remains that some gun shop owners dont want to hassle with the obstacles of proving legitimacy, even in a remote possibility. some people, NON gun shop owners, are still being hassled and prosecuted for a legally configured AR15!

like i said, its not the law its the ignorance surrounding it.

there are many places to get an OLL so i dont see why the argument is so prevalent.

GunLover
03-04-2008, 7:57 AM
J&J just did 2 for me from LAN World with no prob and started dros as soon as they had a tracking. They are located in Santa Ana.

aplinker
03-04-2008, 1:40 PM
Repealed laws are not "loopholes." Modified laws are not "loopholes." This is a common legality issue. Laws get reinterpreted and changed all the time. We are following the law. Period.

call it what you want, but it is a loophole situation. And the fact remains that some gun shop owners dont want to hassle with the obstacles of proving legitimacy, even in a remote possibility. some people, NON gun shop owners, are still being hassled and prosecuted for a legally configured AR15!

like i said, its not the law its the ignorance surrounding it.

there are many places to get an OLL so i dont see why the argument is so prevalent.

CRTguns
03-04-2008, 2:37 PM
... they will only do some bs vulcan lower/rifle, the epoxyed mag lower...



What is so BS about Vulcan? They're made of the same material, to the same spec, and fit the same parts. I suppose Shell gasoline is BS and 76 is much better, right?:rolleyes:

The law says the mag cannot be removeable. Why then would it seem so inconvenient to you that the vulcan mag cannot be removed?

That's like basing your decision to not buy a corvette on the fact that it comes with a speed governor, so you can't break the law quite well enough with it. C'mon dude.

They're trying to play ball w/ a government that likes to change rules w/o reason or notice.

sharpshot4life89
03-04-2008, 2:44 PM
hey i live in fresno (central valley) and Breco does them, hes a good guy, referred a lot of people to him and they came back happy. pm me if you want his information

packnrat
03-04-2008, 2:52 PM
i just orderd up a stag from diablo valley gun works in pleasant hill,:D

i did it at the same time i orderd up my yugo mod 70.:eek:

small shop but good one, they also have a number of "ar" style rifles with the bullet button, in stock.


.

ar15barrels
03-04-2008, 5:58 PM
What is so BS about Vulcan? They're made of the same material, to the same spec, and fit the same parts.

You are almost right.
Just eliminate the parts about meeting the same specs and fitting the same parts.

sharpshot4life89
03-05-2008, 11:01 AM
You are almost right.
Just eliminate the parts about meeting the same specs and fitting the same parts.

haha

JBird33
03-05-2008, 11:12 AM
I just finished assembling a Vulcan forged lower that I bought impulsively before I did a whole lot of research, and everything fit perfectly. No hangups at all. Used a RRA LPK and Magpul CTR stock. Only thing left is to see how well it mates up to an upper.