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View Full Version : Last lead smelting plant to be shut down?


eglocker
11-14-2013, 6:41 AM
http://janmorganmedia.com/2013/11/ammunition-hit-hard-epa-forces-last-primary-lead-smelter-close/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/16881-epa-closure-of-last-lead-smelting-plant-to-impact-ammunition-production

spruce3311
11-14-2013, 7:31 AM
now we know why they've been hoarding bullets

Calzona
11-14-2013, 9:39 AM
Almost all ammo is made from recycled lead. There is plenty of lead on the open market.

kaligaran
11-14-2013, 9:53 AM
Almost all ammo is made from recycled lead. There is plenty of lead on the open market.

That's good to know, I wasn't aware of this.

Do you know what the numbers are of recycled lead and where that product comes from?

I'm honestly curious.

Jason_2111
11-14-2013, 10:14 AM
That's good to know, I wasn't aware of this.

Do you know what the numbers are of recycled lead and where that product comes from?

I'm honestly curious.

Good question... I'm curious too.

I heard that there was actually a place to buy bulk lead up in San Fran... which is kind of hilarious because of all of the hippies and enviro-nuts.

Epaphroditus
11-14-2013, 11:09 AM
Batteries is a major source of lead for recycling.

http://www.themetalcasting.com/lead-scrap.html

broofy
11-14-2013, 11:41 AM
While I recognize the issue created by closing the last primary smelter, I will play devil's advocate here.

For those that have not seen it, check out the documentary "Tar Creek" on Nexflix. It's about a massive area in Oklahoma totally destroyed by lead mining. Entire communities ruined and thousands of people seriously hurt and lives destroyed. Generations of children, literally, with permanent cognitive deficits from unrecognized lead poisoning.

http://tarcreekfilm.com

The area in Northeast Oklahoma was one of the largest lead mining areas in the country for over 100 years. Because of the profit driven corruption of everyone from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), to the EPA, the water is ruined, there are hundreds of millions of tons of toxic mine tailings piled up, and the entire area is undermined and collapsing. Generations of people exploited the mines for lead. Most of the munitions for the world wars came from there. We all benefited. We "Needed" it, but the place is now a toxic wasteland and all of those agencies that should be responsible to clean up the mess "we" as a country co-signed have walked away. The EPA spent tens of thousands of dollars to scrape topsoil out of people's yards while leaving mountains of toxic dirt across the street. The whole thing is a boondoggle and waste of hundreds of millions of dollars (Superfund money) and the victims are still screwed. The (republican) senator for the area, who is on the committee that manages the EPA, stymied a buy-out of residents rather than admit the place was uninhabitable. Think about that. He left those people there to suffer poisoning to save money and face. They would spend 80K to scrape up someone's yard rather than give them 50K to move because admitting relocation was necessary had political consequences for the mining and insurance companies that put him in office.

Not that I trust the EPA, but if the lead smelter has been in operation for 100 years, my guess is it's a mess too. Forcing them to clean up is the least we can do. If they can't afford it, they can't afford to continue to profit on the backs of the people that have to live in their waste.

I want my cheap, available bullets as much as anyone, but there has to be a way to produce them that doesn't poison our children. If the company isn't willing to do that, or their business model requires them to pollute to profit, then screw them.

Bruce
11-14-2013, 11:58 AM
While I recognize the issue created by closing the last primary smelter, I will play devil's advocate here.

For those that have not seen it, check out the documentary "Tar Creek" on Nexflix. It's about a massive area in Oklahoma totally destroyed by lead mining. Entire communities ruined and thousands of people seriously hurt and lives destroyed. Generations of children, literally, with permanent cognitive deficits from unrecognized lead poisoning.

http://tarcreekfilm.com

The area in Northeast Oklahoma was one of the largest lead mining areas in the country for over 100 years. Because of the profit driven corruption of everyone from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), to the EPA, the water is ruined, there are hundreds of millions of tons of toxic mine tailings piled up, and the entire area is undermined and collapsing. Generations of people exploited the mines for lead. Most of the munitions for the world wars came from there. We all benefited. We "Needed" it, but the place is now a toxic wasteland and all of those agencies that should be responsible to clean up the mess "we" as a country co-signed have walked away. The EPA spent tens of thousands of dollars to scrape topsoil out of people's yards while leaving mountains of toxic dirt across the street. The whole thing is a boondoggle and waste of hundreds of millions of dollars (Superfund money) and the victims are still screwed. The (republican) senator for the area, who is on the committee that manages the EPA, stymied a buy-out of residents rather than admit the place was uninhabitable. Think about that. He left those people there to suffer poisoning to save money and face. They would spend 80K to scrape up someone's yard rather than give them 50K to move because admitting relocation was necessary had political consequences for the mining and insurance companies that put him in office.

Not that I trust the EPA, but if the lead smelter has been in operation for 100 years, my guess is it's a mess too. Forcing them to clean up is the least we can do. If they can't afford it, they can't afford to continue to profit on the backs of the people that have to live in their waste.

I want my cheap, available bullets as much as anyone, but there has to be a way to produce them that doesn't poison our children. If the company isn't willing to do that, or their business model requires them to pollute to profit, then screw them.

OMG! Think of the children! :rolleyes:

srccolt6920
11-14-2013, 12:08 PM
I work for a battery recycler . Lots of lead recovered from that!

otteray
11-14-2013, 12:26 PM
I gotta pile of scrap roofing lead, plumbing lead, linotype and used wheel weights; probably close to between 1/2 to 1 ton in all. Started hoarding it a decade ago. Back then you could bring a 12 pack of Coors to a tire shop and trade for a couple five gallon buckets full of used weights.

Germz
11-14-2013, 12:36 PM
I work for a battery recycler . Lots of lead recovered from that!

DO NOT USE BATTERY LEAD FOR RELOADING..

melted down battery lead yields very small amounts of usable lead in relation to the effort it takes to get it. Not to mention the ridiculous amounts of poisons released from the alloy when melted in the form of arsenic.

broofy
11-14-2013, 1:11 PM
OMG! Think of the children! :rolleyes:

Yea, yea, trolling comments aside. I'm fully aware of the misuse of "for the children". That does not mean that the argument never makes proper sense or is always misused.

The town in OK had at least 3 generations of its sons and daughters suffering from low academic achievement and higher than usual developmental issues. The whole town was aware that something was going on, but didn't know what. When they finally tested for lead 30 years ago, over 42% of the kids at that time had damagingly high lead levels. Now, consider that several generations of people had raised their families there. Lead poisoning in childhood results in Permanent intellectual impairment. That's not waving around "children" as a false flag for political gain. That's avoidable harm to many many people for profit.

I guess if its someone other guy's kid that has the brain damage and has to manage his impaired kid on his tiny working class income, its OK to make light of it? The adults were affected too, but lead disproportionately impairs children as their neurological systems (brains) develop.

The "evil" in almost all cases is money and power. In 2A case, its power over people. In industry's case, its money over people.

The "free market" is an illusion. It's got its benefits, but it's also code for "I have money and I want to do what I want, and if I make more money by making your family or the government pick up the tab for issues my business creates...I win. The Free Market does not account for greed. The purpose of government is too handle public issues that individuals can't, and businesses won't (because it's not profitable), like doing basic antibiotic research, making people meet some kind of pollution standards even if it costs them money, keeping companies from taking advantage of people en-mass because they create a monopoly, etc. When business is then allowed to buy government, you get what we have now, the worst of both.

How does curbing lead poisoning in the environment infringe you? Oh, it makes bullets more expensive? Well, if the only reason they were so cheap is because miners were allowed to meet zero pollution standard while mining, then bullets (and batteries) are actually much more expensive...but the cost is paid by the people living in the mining towns. Add the cost of the Superfund to your bullet price, and it's not so cheap any more. By the way, the EPA didn't shut the company down, the company decided that they couldn't make enough money if they couldn't continue to emit lead.

I'd pay more (the fully burdened actual cost) for bullets that did not require retarded children.

Now, whether one believes that an increase in cost today would actually achieve good behavior by industry in the future...well, that's a different problem.

acanales
11-14-2013, 2:01 PM
Almost all ammo is made from recycled lead. There is plenty of lead on the open market.

The same air quality rules that apply to the Doe Run ore smelter apply also to the lead recycle operations.

Companies like Exide are encountering new problems with their domestic facilities.

See: http://ktla.com/2013/10/11/residents-call-for-action-against-vernon-battery-plant-over-toxic-chemicals/#axzz2kfD3wibY

Of course, if you want to rely on foreign suppliers like the Chinese for your ammunition or components, go right ahead and continue believing that the marketplace will provide.

Librarian
11-14-2013, 2:06 PM
Not California; no 2A content.

Bruce
11-14-2013, 4:51 PM
Yea, yea, trolling comments aside. I'm fully aware of the misuse of "for the children". That does not mean that the argument never makes proper sense or is always misused.

The town in OK had at least 3 generations of its sons and daughters suffering from low academic achievement and higher than usual developmental issues. The whole town was aware that something was going on, but didn't know what. When they finally tested for lead 30 years ago, over 42% of the kids at that time had damagingly high lead levels. Now, consider that several generations of people had raised their families there. Lead poisoning in childhood results in Permanent intellectual impairment. That's not waving around "children" as a false flag for political gain. That's avoidable harm to many many people for profit.

I guess if its someone other guy's kid that has the brain damage and has to manage his impaired kid on his tiny working class income, its OK to make light of it? The adults were affected too, but lead disproportionately impairs children as their neurological systems (brains) develop.

The "evil" in almost all cases is money and power. In 2A case, its power over people. In industry's case, its money over people.

The "free market" is an illusion. It's got its benefits, but it's also code for "I have money and I want to do what I want, and if I make more money by making your family or the government pick up the tab for issues my business creates...I win. The Free Market does not account for greed. The purpose of government is too handle public issues that individuals can't, and businesses won't (because it's not profitable), like doing basic antibiotic research, making people meet some kind of pollution standards even if it costs them money, keeping companies from taking advantage of people en-mass because they create a monopoly, etc. When business is then allowed to buy government, you get what we have now, the worst of both.

How does curbing lead poisoning in the environment infringe you? Oh, it makes bullets more expensive? Well, if the only reason they were so cheap is because miners were allowed to meet zero pollution standard while mining, then bullets (and batteries) are actually much more expensive...but the cost is paid by the people living in the mining towns. Add the cost of the Superfund to your bullet price, and it's not so cheap any more. By the way, the EPA didn't shut the company down, the company decided that they couldn't make enough money if they couldn't continue to emit lead.

I'd pay more (the fully burdened actual cost) for bullets that did not require retarded children.

Now, whether one believes that an increase in cost today would actually achieve good behavior by industry in the future...well, that's a different problem.

Tar Creek area mining ended 60 years ago. Since that is the case, Tar Creek isn't relevant regarding bullets made in 2013. I'm sure your documentary producing buddy appreciates you hyping his flick for him though. :D

ptusa
11-14-2013, 4:58 PM
DO NOT USE BATTERY LEAD FOR RELOADING..

melted down battery lead yields very small amounts of usable lead in relation to the effort it takes to get it. Not to mention the ridiculous amounts of poisons released from the alloy when melted in the form of arsenic.

He is talking about a commercial recycling setup...not using your own old car batteries as a DIY lead source.

Walking Fire
11-14-2013, 7:21 PM
And I think about all of the lead weights I dropped to the bottom of the ocean Salmon fishing...

Sunday
11-14-2013, 7:23 PM
Now it will come from Mexico or China where there is no EPA .

broofy
11-14-2013, 11:15 PM
It's only irrelevant if you willfully ignore the similarity of two hundred year old lead operations and their likely similar impact on local environments.

Tar Creek isn't relevant to current lead shortages, obviously, but two long term lead producers with environmental contamination issues are a relevant corollary.

My point is that it's dumb to over-simplify the EPA's action on the current smelter as "Obama's latest attempt to take away our bullets".

Long term polluters are a real issue. Sure, I'd prefer to have a safe domestic supply of lead. Sure, I'd rather not have another factor in ammo scarcity and cost, but as important as our guns are, they aren't the only issue and not always the most important.

And no, I don't know the film makers. I just happened to have watched it last night and thought it was topical, given this thread.


Tar Creek area mining ended 60 years ago. Since that is the case, Tar Creek isn't relevant regarding bullets made in 2013. I'm sure your documentary producing buddy appreciates you hyping his flick for him though. :D

broofy
11-14-2013, 11:17 PM
Now it will come from Mexico or China where there is no EPA .

Yea, that's ironic. We will essentially subsidize our shooting by pretending that contaminating someone else's country is OK.

Librarian
12-03-2013, 6:02 PM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/2/obamas-epa-smelter-closing-will-not-affect-ammunit/ Lawrence Keane is the senior vice president and general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), which represents the ammunitions and firearms industry.

“Manufacturers use recycled lead to make ammunition. They don’t buy from smelters,” Mr. Keane told me Monday. “The EPA closing, which has been in the works for a while, will have no impact on production, supply or cost to the consumers.”

ja308
12-03-2013, 6:37 PM
While I recognize the issue created by closing the last primary smelter, I will play devil's advocate here.

For those that have not seen it, check out the documentary "Tar Creek" on Nexflix. It's about a massive area in Oklahoma totally destroyed by lead mining. Entire communities ruined and thousands of people seriously hurt and lives destroyed. Generations of children, literally, with permanent cognitive deficits from unrecognized lead poisoning.

http://tarcreekfilm.com

The area in Northeast Oklahoma was one of the largest lead mining areas in the country for over 100 years. Because of the profit driven corruption of everyone from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), to the EPA, the water is ruined, there are hundreds of millions of tons of toxic mine tailings piled up, and the entire area is undermined and collapsing. Generations of people exploited the mines for lead. Most of the munitions for the world wars came from there. We all benefited. We "Needed" it, but the place is now a toxic wasteland and all of those agencies that should be responsible to clean up the mess "we" as a country co-signed have walked away. The EPA spent tens of thousands of dollars to scrape topsoil out of people's yards while leaving mountains of toxic dirt across the street. The whole thing is a boondoggle and waste of hundreds of millions of dollars (Superfund money) and the victims are still screwed. The (republican) senator for the area, who is on the committee that manages the EPA, stymied a buy-out of residents rather than admit the place was uninhabitable. Think about that. He left those people there to suffer poisoning to save money and face. They would spend 80K to scrape up someone's yard rather than give them 50K to move because admitting relocation was necessary had political consequences for the mining and insurance companies that put him in office.

Not that I trust the EPA, but if the lead smelter has been in operation for 100 years, my guess is it's a mess too. Forcing them to clean up is the least we can do. If they can't afford it, they can't afford to continue to profit on the backs of the people that have to live in their waste.

I want my cheap, available bullets as much as anyone, but there has to be a way to produce them that doesn't poison our children. If the company isn't willing to do that, or their business model requires them to pollute to profit, then screw them.


I clicked on the link you provided and it did not contain any scientific study's to what your post refers .

You will forgive me if I'm skeptical about some crappy documentary shown on TV ! I think many Calgunners may be reminded of propagandist Micheal Moore. Who's credibility is zero !

In the event I have misjudged this film, please provide links to scientific study's showing a correlation to the lead and problems to which your post refers .

Many on this forum condemned lead bullets yet this study cannot find any negatives to the environment .http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041104005801.htm

I'm reminded about the global warming crisis some so called scientists have warned about! They claim burning petroleum causes the climate to warm, yet I've not heard ONE word about the president who has burned at least 1 million gallons of jet fuel !
Including flying in a pizza chef from Chicago !

pastureofmuppets
12-03-2013, 9:07 PM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/2/obamas-epa-smelter-closing-will-not-affect-ammunit/

Not sure why there is any discussion beyond that regarding shooting… this has been known for quite a while.

ChrisC
12-04-2013, 8:25 AM
now we know why they've been hoarding bullets

The plant that was closed did not supply lead to bullet making. It is a different type of lead.

Garand1911
12-04-2013, 9:18 PM
If the ammo companies could not get enough lead to fulfill their LEO/MIL ammo contracts they would be F'ed.