Tac-con 3MR trigger - multi-burst trigger activator?

[Chatterbox]

So, a new company called Tac-con (http://tacfirecon.com/) has popped up, advertising a $495 AR-15 trigger which apparently allows extremely rapid firing mode.

eQtCTUq4Y_I

It looks like it ties in with the safety to add a third "rapid-fire" mode switch. Realizing that the information is thin at this point, does that look like a multi-burst trigger activator as defined under CA law?

[Wiz-of-Awd]

Short answer: Go directly to prison.

A.W.D.

[tuolumnejim]

Yes it look to be a TA illegal in the PRK but legal in free States. :43: Oh and this needs to go to a different forum.

[John Galt]

what are you basing your assessment on? I don't see anything about how the trigger functions

[Quiet]

Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

Penal Code 32900
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any multiburst trigger activator is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

[Forewarned]

I fail to see how this would be illegal not knowing how the trigger functions.

[dave86]

It can be argued that this device is not prohibited because it does not meet the Kalifornia definition of a multi-burst trigger device.

It is very likely that you will be arrested and prosecuted if you have this device. It will be interesting to watch the case and appeals unfold. I cannot afford the risk.

[badicedog]

Ummm... I'll pass.

[Wiz-of-Awd]

I cannot afford the gigantic and unquestionable risk.

A.W.D.

[Wiz-of-Awd]

I fail to see how this would be illegal not knowing how the trigger functions.

Then fail you shall, as the video is pretty good indication of what's going on.

A.W.D.

[Chatterbox]

Then fail you shall, as the video is pretty good indication of what's going on.

A.W.D.

Actually, I'm not quite clear on what's going on. To me it looks like a mode with super-light trigger weight and extra-powerful reset, like Geissele SD-3G on steroids.

[zonzin]

http://www.douchebagreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/monopoly-go-to-jail-card.jpg

[tpliquid1]

http://tacfirecon.com/wp-content/uploads/TacCon-3MR-Trigger.jpg

from their website

[Wiz-of-Awd]

Actually, I'm not quite clear on what's going on. To me it looks like a mode with super-light trigger weight and extra-powerful reset, like Geissele SD-3G on steroids.

You may be on to something; however, mechanics aside, these won't fly in CA.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/627896_TacCon_3MR_Trigger_system.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom

I stand by my comment, that prison is immediately following for use in CA.

A.W.D.

[itisagoodname]

Actually, I'm not quite clear on what's going on. To me it looks like a mode with super-light trigger weight and extra-powerful reset, like Geissele SD-3G on steroids.

This...

The 3rd safety selector position is the real killer though.

[morfeeis]

This...

The 3rd safety selector position is the real killer though.
That's the only thing i saw as being a real problem.

[IPSICK]

At first I was optimistic about this being legal, but after some thought it really isn't too different from what the slidefire tries to accomplish except this is a better execution of it. Could be legal in other states but not for us. I'd love to try one out of state just to confirm it works like how I suspect it works.

[kaligaran]

If the slide stock is a problem being that it is not even a trigger modification, then this without a doubt would be a problem.

[Chatterbox]

So, to bring up my earlier comparison, wouldn't SD-3G also be potentially a "multi-burst trigger activator"? Cops see you on the range rapid-firing, slap the handcuffs on you, DA decides - "Hey, we got ourselves a machine gunner right here!" and presto - you're in the clink for a couple of years.

[Jason_2111]

http://www.douchebagreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/monopoly-go-to-jail-card.jpg

^^^ This.

Another fun thing for Free-America, but not here behind enemy lines.

[IPSICK]

So, to bring up my earlier comparison, wouldn't SD-3G also be potentially a "multi-burst trigger activator"? Cops see you on the range rapid-firing, slap the handcuffs on you, DA decides - "Hey, we got ourselves a machine gunner right here!" and presto - you're in the clink for a couple of years.

Possibly, but this trigger seems to have additional mechanism(s) that promote burst fire. The most I've seen from S3G/SD3Gs are unintentional doubles.

[epilepticninja]

If its cool and fun, then it is banned in Commiefornia.

[riddler408]

Would be fun!

[Untamed1972]

Would it be illegal in CA to just possess the parts to have on hand in case of long term SHTF or civil war? :D

[Tincon]

I stand by my comment, that prison is immediately following for use possession in CA.

A.W.D.


Fixed.

[IPSICK]

I forgot, which CA statute makes the SlideFire illegal to possess?

[Untamed1972]

I forgot, which CA statute makes the SlideFire illegal to possess?

See post #5

[John Galt]

What if you purchased a new rifle that had been assembled when it was first built with this type of trigger? The rate of fire never having been increased as it always fired that fast. Everything else satisfies the scary looking weapons ban.

[Untamed1972]

Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

What if you purchased a new rifle that had been assembled when it was first built with this type of trigger? The rate of fire never having been increased as it always fired that fast. Everything else satisfies the scary looking weapons ban.

It kinda seems like since this unit IS the trigger group itself, and it still only fires one round per trigger pull that it wouldn't meet the definition of either section (a) or (b). Since it's the trigger group itself the only thing activating the trigger is your finger so how would it be any different than pulling the trigger on a regular semi-auto as fast as you can? I'm sure if you practice and had a light weight regular trigger you could pull it multiple times pretty damn fast.

When section (b) says "increases the rate of fire of that firearm". Increased based on what? Who/what determines the "standard rate of fire" that in "increased rate of fire' would be compared to?

[IPSICK]

See post #5

Oops, my bad!

[Germz]

I think a comparable logic in the defense of this product is knives. automatic blades, ones that you push a button to spring open are illegal. meanhile spring-assisted knives, ones which require you to physically push the blade open to a certain point are legal.

i can only imagine that IF the trigger is fully reset and disconnected after each pull, how is this not semi auto? what defines increased rate of fire if there is no baseline? last time i checked there is no law that defines rate of fire.

also, a "trigger activating device" implies an extra/separate device besides the trigger assembly that activatesand increases the rate of fire.

your finger is the only thing activating the trigger assembly. you are not using your finger or any other method to activate something else, which in turn activates the trigger.


if anything, these guys got it right, they did not create a products that manipulates the trigger assembly, they created a very sensitive and timed trigger.

[Untamed1972]

I think a comparable logic in the defense of this product is knives. automatic blades, ones that you push a button to spring open are illegal. meanhile spring-assisted knives, ones which require you to physically push the blade open to a certain point are legal.

i can only imagine that IF the trigger is fully reset and disconnected after each pull, how is this not semi auto? what defines increased rate of fire if there is no baseline? last time i checked there is no law that defines rate of fire.

also, a "trigger activating device" implies an extra/separate device besides the trigger assembly that activatesand increases the rate of fire.

your finger is the only thing activating the trigger assembly. you are not using your finger or any other method to activate something else, which in turn activates the trigger.

Yep...that's my thinking. So if the gun came with a trigger that only fired at the rate of "increased rate of fire" of this device, but still only fired one round per trigger pull....that would be legal would it not?

So what they need to say is: "This device does not INCREASE the rate of fire...it just has a setting that allows one to DECREASE the rate of fire if they choose." There....problem solved.

But I fail to see how having the option to switch between 2 semi-auto "rates of fire" changes anything? They're both still semi-auto. It seems all it's really doing is switching the trigger to a setting that has a lighter, shorter trigger pull.

So can I get mine with a ambi-selector switch? :D

[Quiet]

When section (b) says "increases the rate of fire of that firearm". Increased based on what? Who/what determines the "standard rate of fire" that in "increased rate of fire' would be compared to?

Determination is based on the point of view of the 58 DA's Offices and the CA DOJ.

So, it will vary depending on who is making decision. Which will come after a person is arrested, jailed & property confiscated for violating this statue.

In addition...
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

[IPSICK]

Determination is based on the point of view of the 58 DA's Offices and the CA DOJ.

So, it will vary depending on who is making decision. Which will come after a person is arrested, jailed & property confiscated for violating this statue.

In addition...
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

We need a test case. Volunteers?!?

[bohoki]

wow i wonder if its like an idea i had a while ago

about taking the safety and adding a little nub to hold the disconnector down just enough so that when you fire then relese the trigger it will fire again

i never followed throught since the 2 modes would be fire and unsafe

[L84CABO]

Short answer: Go directly to prison.

A.W.D.

Short answer: Looks cool. "Cool" is illegal in California.

[Experimentalist]

We need a test case. Volunteers?!?

Exactly.

I can see arguments for and against legality of this item.

The catch is getting 50+ DA's to side with your viewpoint.

[IPSICK]

Exactly.

I can see arguments for and against legality of this item.

The catch is getting 50+ DA's to side with your viewpoint.

No, you just need one judge or one jury to establish case law.

[Tincon]

No, you just need one judge or one jury to establish case law.

Juries cannot establish case law, and you would need at least two judges. Basically, not something the average person could bankroll.

[Cobrafreak]

I'll be able to buy all this cool stuff after I leave this CA hellhole.

[Germz]

I'm going to buy one.

[Wiz-of-Awd]

We need a test case. Volunteers?!?

I'm going to buy one.

:clap:

A.W.D.

[Tasty]

LGS is advertising these on their Facebook as "Coming soon to our shop"

Were the slide fire stocks sold here in shops before it was clear that they were illegal?

[saki302]

I think I have a pretty good idea how it will work, as I thought of this years ago. It may be legal (but not worth the hassle IMO), but I'll also tell you why it will kind of suck if it works how I think it does.

I think they use a secondary sear to use the bolt carrier to forcefully bump the trigger forwards when the bolt returns to battery.
This way, if you maintain (heavy) pressure on the trigger, your finger will rock back and forth causing it to fire multiple rounds. You are still firing one round per trigger pull.
By mechanics, it doesn't fire more than one round per pull (like the old tri-burst trigger attachment- I had one of these pre-illegal ban, they sucked), and it's not a secondary activator which attaches to the outside of the trigger (hellfire- I also used to own one, they also suck. Both are rotting in a landfill somewhere).

Here's why it's a bad idea. Video theatrics aside, have you ever fired a weapon with a bad trigger bump during recoil? Think MAC pistol or bad AK trigger. This is a light bump, but it's annoying. This is why you see the dreadful rubber sleeve over MAC triggers, to soak up some of the bump force.

Now imagine a trigger which bumps hard and far enough forward to fully reset the trigger in the instant the bolt returns to battery. I'm thinking this will start to hurt after a mag or two. Worst case I could see this bruising a finger.

-Dave

[Germz]

I guess we'll never know until someone does a review of one

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[CitaDeL]

It is a mechanical analog of a belt loop used for bump fire.

But don't tell the DOJ and our legislature that. They won't agree.

[Tasty]

It is a mechanical analog of a belt loop used for bump fire.

But don't tell the DOJ and our legislature that. They won't agree.

Sooo what you're saying is we need to ban belt loops!

[kaligaran]

Were the slide fire stocks sold here in shops before it was clear that they were illegal?

Yes, at least there used to be. I don't know if they still are sold in CA to Californians though and I'm too lazy to search for it.

[IPSICK]

I think I have a pretty good idea how it will work, as I thought of this years ago. It may be legal (but not worth the hassle IMO), but I'll also tell you why it will kind of suck if it works how I think it does.

I think they use a secondary sear to use the bolt carrier to forcefully bump the trigger forwards when the bolt returns to battery.
This way, if you maintain (heavy) pressure on the trigger, your finger will rock back and forth causing it to fire multiple rounds. You are still firing one round per trigger pull.
By mechanics, it doesn't fire more than one round per pull (like the old tri-burst trigger attachment- I had one of these pre-illegal ban, they sucked), and it's not a secondary activator which attaches to the outside of the trigger (hellfire- I also used to own one, they also suck. Both are rotting in a landfill somewhere).

Here's why it's a bad idea. Video theatrics aside, have you ever fired a weapon with a bad trigger bump during recoil? Think MAC pistol or bad AK trigger. This is a light bump, but it's annoying. This is why you see the dreadful rubber sleeve over MAC triggers, to soak up some of the bump force.

Now imagine a trigger which bumps hard and far enough forward to fully reset the trigger in the instant the bolt returns to battery. I'm thinking this will start to hurt after a mag or two. Worst case I could see this bruising a finger.

-Dave

So you think it's legal but it's just going to hurt? I can live with that. When I would use/need a trigger like this, I'll be pumped so full of adrenaline that I won't feel the pain until after I don't need this trigger. I'm finding this trigger very interesting if legal though the price point is high.

[riddler408]

I go to Nevada multiple times a year to see family... Might have to get one regardless of legality.

[saki302]

So you think it's legal but it's just going to hurt? I can live with that. When I would use/need a trigger like this, I'll be pumped so full of adrenaline that I won't feel the pain until after I don't need this trigger. I'm finding this trigger very interesting if legal though the price point is high.

There's an easier fix for you- wear gloves :D

If the SHTF though, learn from our military. Semi auto aimed fire kills the enemy, auto fire is only to suppress- and most of us have nowhere near the ammo supply to keep that up.

-Dave

[junior40er]

nope, not worth the legal risk.

[IPSICK]

There's an easier fix for you- wear gloves :D

If the SHTF though, learn from our military. Semi auto aimed fire kills the enemy, auto fire is only to suppress- and most of us have nowhere near the ammo supply to keep that up.

-Dave

You responded to my response to your post with a response to something in your post?

I was never saying I preferred auto fire, but if I needed it I won't be caring about a bruised finger.

[09rubicon]

Sooo what you're saying is we need to ban belt loops!

No, he is saying we need to ban the CADOJ and the legislature.

[Tasty]

I've been emailing the company asking specifically about their trigger and CA DOJ. Been getting very quick responses so far. +1 for customer service as I'm sure their swamped right now with inquiries. Mike, the president of the company, said "The trigger is not a class 3 item and is not regulated by the CA DOJ. This trigger is a NON-NFA part approved by the BATFE."

So I emailed him again explaining the slide fire stock comes with the same letter but it's a no go here. Here's his response. "We did some more research on CA law. If you read the law carefully they outlaw add-ons to the trigger which increase cycle rates not the trigger. I image that it is like the moving stock or the meat girder." (I think he meant grinder)

Take it for what it's worth. Sounds like they didn't/haven't yet submitted a product for CA DOJ to play with and make their determination. Until there is a clear answer, I'll probably buy only one. It it's deemed illegal I'll keep it out if state. If it's G2G, and I like it I'll buy more. Of it fits in my .308's I'll buy a lot more.

No, he is saying we need to ban the CADOJ and the legislature.

We all wish...


Sorry if there's any really bad errors in my post. I'm doing this all from my phone.

[Capybara]

10 rounds with this would make it not even worth it. I can't imagine trying to manipulate this with a featureless Kydex wrapped grip. Interesting concept, but even it if were legal, I wouldn't buy one for shooting in California.

[vintagearms]

Someone buy me one. I'll be a test case.

[Intimid8tor]

Maybe I can finally use my 90 and 100 round drums. I have a slidefire (I renounced my CA citizenship) and it's ok, but I would rather have something like this if it works. The slidefire was $250ish I think so for something like this to be $500 is doable. It'll be interesting to see how the normal trigger is.

I guess I have areason to start going to gun shows again.

[Ninety]

There's an easier fix for you- wear gloves :D

If the SHTF though, learn from our military. Semi auto aimed fire kills the enemy, auto fire is only to suppress- and most of us have nowhere near the ammo supply to keep that up.

-Dave

I think when this happens.. there will be plenty laying around..

[Deadon]

Best way to determine if its legal here. Is it cool? Is it something that makes a Anti's freak out? Do you live in Cali? Yup its illegal.

[Gio]

The video does not really show you how it works. On the other hand I can bumpfire from the shoulder with control and decent accuracy and probably faster than what was shown on the video :D

[1stLineGear]

So, a new company called Tac-con (http://tacfirecon.com/) has popped up, advertising a $495 AR-15 trigger which apparently allows extremely rapid firing mode.

eQtCTUq4Y_I

It looks like it ties in with the safety to add a third "rapid-fire" mode switch. Realizing that the information is thin at this point, does that look like a multi-burst trigger activator as defined under CA law?

Nice, I am wanting one:43: It is technically NOT a multi-burst device.

[bwiese]

Determination is based on the point of view of the 58 DA's Offices and the CA DOJ.

So, it will vary depending on who is making decision. Which will come after a person is arrested, jailed & property confiscated for violating this statue.


The dealer sales video will easily show intent of product.

DA's crime lab will run a demo of a straight AR with OEM stock trigger firing as fast as possible.

Then the AR fitted with this trigger device will be demoed and will be seen to be readily fired more quickly. Esp with the sales/marketing demo videos.

Remember the definition of multiburst trigger activator really doesn't ahve to involve the trigger [even though this uses a trigger!] and the measurable rate increase will be apparent. Judge will make finding of law that the device is a multiburst trigger activator. Jury will be asked whether charged party is guilty. Slam dunk.

Remember CA DOJ spokeswoman has already opined on TV that the Slidefire stock is illegal, but "no case law exists" (i.e., nobody's been popped - - somehow, I dunno why)


In addition...
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

Yup. That icing on the cake alone is good for extended investigation.

[Chatterbox]

The dealer sales video will easily show intent of product.

DA's crime lab will run a demo of a straight AR with OEM stock trigger firing as fast as possible.

Then the AR fitted with this trigger device will be demoed and will be seen to be readily fired more quickly. Esp with the sales/marketing demo videos.

Remember the definition of multiburst trigger activator really doesn't ahve to involve the trigger [even though this uses a trigger!] and the measurable rate increase will be apparent. Judge will make finding of law that the device is a multiburst trigger activator. Jury will be asked whether charged party is guilty. Slam dunk.

Remember CA DOJ spokeswoman has already opined on TV that the Slidefire stock is illegal, but "no case law exists" (i.e., nobody's been popped - - somehow, I dunno why)



Yup. That icing on the cake alone is good for extended investigation.

Bill,

I believe all your statements (bar the 3rd position safety) can be applied to SD-3G trigger. Geissele advertises it on their site as being for: "use where rapid target engagement with quick follow up shots are required." It's considerably lighter than mil-spec AR-15 trigger, and anybody halfway competent will be able to manipulate it quite a bit faster.

Would you say that this type of trigger is also a multi-burst activator?

[1stLineGear]

The video does not really show you how it works. On the other hand I can bumpfire from the shoulder with control and decent accuracy and probably faster than what was shown on the video :D

This is how it works.

About the Tac-Con 3MR TriggerThe 3MR is a drop-in 3-mode fire control system with Safe, Semi-Automatic, and Tac-Con's patented 3rd Mode.* The 3rd mode has a positive reset that dramatically reduces the split times between shots. The positive reset characteristic is achieved by transferring the force from the bolt carrier through the trigger assembly to assist the trigger back onto the front sear. As a result, this gives the firearm the fastest reset possible. Both semi and 3rd mode positions exhibit a non-adjustable 4.5 pound trigger pull weight.* Why 4.5 pounds?* Because most law enforcement agencies limit any trigger used for duty to 4.5 pounds and above. Extensive testing done by Tac-Con, the ATF (BATFE), and professional shooters have proven that this is the fastest semi-automatic trigger in the world. The 3MR is ATF approved and is NOT a NFA part. Each trigger is accompanied by a copy of the ATF letter. This is not a bump fire system. The shooter must pull the trigger once for every round fired.Additional information will be available at*www.tacfirecon.com*on December 1st.Thank you for your interest in Tac-Con!!

Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk 2

[Wiz-of-Awd]

OK, so I want to know how and if this trigger system will work with a dedicated .22LR build...

A.W.D.

This is how it works.

About the Tac-Con 3MR TriggerThe 3MR is a drop-in 3-mode fire control system with Safe, Semi-Automatic, and Tac-Con's patented 3rd Mode.* The 3rd mode has a positive reset that dramatically reduces the split times between shots. The positive reset characteristic is achieved by transferring the force from the bolt carrier through the trigger assembly to assist the trigger back onto the front sear. As a result, this gives the firearm the fastest reset possible. Both semi and 3rd mode positions exhibit a non-adjustable 4.5 pound trigger pull weight.* Why 4.5 pounds?* Because most law enforcement agencies limit any trigger used for duty to 4.5 pounds and above. Extensive testing done by Tac-Con, the ATF (BATFE), and professional shooters have proven that this is the fastest semi-automatic trigger in the world. The 3MR is ATF approved and is NOT a NFA part. Each trigger is accompanied by a copy of the ATF letter. This is not a bump fire system. The shooter must pull the trigger once for every round fired.Additional information will be available at*www.tacfirecon.com*on December 1st.Thank you for your interest in Tac-Con!!

Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk 2

[tackdriver]

Oh great, something else for the liberals to watch..

[NotEnufGarage]

Oh great, something else for the liberals to watch..

Anybody who puts one of these on either a Bullet Buttoned AR or RAW in California is a moron in my book.

On the BB AR, why bother, since yo can only have 10 rounds?

On a RAW, why risk it?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[SC_SD]

OK, so I want to know how and if this trigger system will work with a dedicated .22LR build...

A.W.D.

If it's an MP-15/22 I'd say highly likely. Not sure on the dedicated .22 upper but hunch says yes (deduced by the fact that I am unaware of trigger systems that do work for a regular .223/556 but do not for dedicated .22.)

Oh, and I second the question about the SD-3G. By Bill's strict reading, anything (subjectively) that allows for a faster rate of fire is no good by CA law? I'm not disagreeing that that view is what a prosecutor might take for the Tac 3MR, but how could the SD-3G possible fit the definition in the PC?

Even the Tac 3MR doesn't fully meet the criteria (imv), unless using inertia to assist in firing another round is what they are trying to prevent with the language "power-driven trigger activating device"

[SC_SD]

Oh great, something else for the liberals to watch..

You might not agree, but perhaps a more constructive attitude is to simply marvel at the cleverness and inventiveness of mankind.

There will always be something for them to gripe about, that is embedded in their worldview.

I wouldn't exchange expression and development of ideas for the fear that a "liberal might watch it". Not that you necessarily suggested as such, but all the same...

[IPSICK]

I'm kind of wondering what the argument is here on the S3G. Yes it's marketed to "allow" a faster rate of fire but it's inherent design is still pretty much a standard 2-stage trigger.

Conversely, the 3MR pretty much forces a faster rate of fire because its mechanics goes beyond most standard AR semi-auto trigger designs. I want this to be legal too, but the more I look at it the fuzzier legality gets.

[rootuser]

Great thing about California: Fire too fast, legal or not, you get an all expense paid trip to jail where you can sort it out!

[Spawn]

Just seems like a super light trigger with a super short reset. I think it's still semi auto

[Untamed1972]

Oh, and I second the question about the SD-3G. By Bill's strict reading, anything (subjectively) that allows for a faster rate of fire is no good by CA law? I'm not disagreeing that that view is what a prosecutor might take for the Tac 3MR, but how could the SD-3G possible fit the definition in the PC?

Even the Tac 3MR doesn't fully meet the criteria (imv), unless using inertia to assist in firing another round is what they are trying to prevent with the language "power-driven trigger activating device"

Seems like the "increased rate of fire" aspect of the law could be challenged as being "unconstitutionally vague" as it gives no definition of what "standard rate of fire" is or what objective measure an "increased rate of fire" would be measured against.

If you can pull the trigger and trap the trigger to the rear and it only fires one round......then it's still just a semi-auto.

So if someone built an AR with just a super light trigger and did lots of finger exercises to increase the speed of their trigger pull how is it not the same thing?

[glbtrottr]

Cheering for these guys.

[splitmx]

WANT! :)

[RP1911]

http://www.guns.com/2013/11/20/tac-con-3mr-rapid-fire-non-nfa-trigger-ars-video/

Article detailing how it works.

[slipknot95758]

If legal I will have one

[L4D]

The Tac-Con 3MR requires that the user pull the trigger once for each shot.

Will that not hold up?

[223556]

At that price, I'll stick with my stock triggers.

[Dead*Reckoned]

This is not a device that attaches to the trigger, it IS the trigger.

[h0use]

If one of you guys would like to buy me one I'll be a test subject =]. I don't mind

[bragmardo]

If one of you guys would like to buy me one I'll be a test subject =]. I don't mindYou don't need to own the device to do that. The remedy of declaratory judgment is available wherever a Constitutional question is involved on the legality or meaning of a statute, and no question of fact is involved.

[IPSICK]

You don't need to own the device to do that. The remedy of declaratory judgment is available wherever a Constitutional question is involved on the legality or meaning of a statute, and no question of fact is involved.

Who is declaring the judgment and can you actually get them to declare one?

I don't think we ever got one on the bullet button until a case was tried.

[bragmardo]

Who is declaring the judgment and can you actually get them to declare one?Declaratory judgments permit parties to a controversy to determine rights, duties, obligations or status. They are provided for by both federal and state law: 28 U.S.C. §§2201-02 and Calif.Code.Civ.Proc. § 1060-1062.5; see also the Uniform Declaratory Judgment Act.

A California case in point is Zeitlin v. Arnebergh, 59 Cal.2d 901 [31 Cal.Rptr. 800, 383 P.2d 152, 10 A.L.R.3d 707] (1963), where the court held that the plaintiffs were entitled to a declaratory judgment that the book Tropic of Cancer was not obscene within the meaning of section 311 of the California Penal Code and that their sale of this book would not violate § 311.2 of the Penal Code. In the matter at hand, you would be suing for a a declaratory judgment that Tac-con's 3MR trigger does not constitute a "multiburst trigger activator" within the meaning of Penal Code § 16930, and therefore its possession is not sanctionable under Penal Code § 32900. The same principle applies to any matter in which the CA DOJ declines to affirm or deny the legality of a firearm accessory.

[IPSICK]

So who's gonna sue the DOJ for a declaratory judgment on this trigger? This could get interesting.

Also how come organizations like the NRA or CGF didn't ever sue the DOJ for such a judgment on Bullet Buttons?

[bragmardo]

So who's gonna sue the DOJ for a declaratory judgment on this trigger? This could get interesting.At $500 a pop, its maker has enough of an incentive to do that.Also how come organizations like the NRA or CGF didn't ever sue the DOJ for such a judgment on Bullet Buttons?Good question.

[shooterfpga]

I just recently bought a new trigger but i think ill be picking up one of these. I might wait for a review first which looks like one or more might be available soon after delivery.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

[L4D]

I have seen the SD-3G perform at a faster rate than what they showed in the video...

[Corbin Dallas]

Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

Penal Code 32900
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any multiburst trigger activator is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

By definition bump firing using your finger is illegal as it will discharge two or more shots and increases the rate of that firearm.


With that said we all need to know more about how the trigger works.

[bragmardo]

By definition bump firing using your finger is illegal as it will discharge two or more shots and increases the rate of that firearm.There are situations where your appendage might qualify as a device. But this isn't one of them.

[1911su16b870]

Check out 0:42 on the Tac-con video (http://tacfirecon.com/).

IMO The third position makes the trigger have no reset...it becomes a hair trigger, and the running of the recoil system on the gun causes the trigger finger to actuate the trigger until you remove the finger.

[vintage rider]

There are situations where your appendage might qualify as a device. But this isn't one of them.

if it is someone elses finger, maybe...:eek:

[emtmark]

If these guys wanted to make a slaying they ought to come here with one, get hooked, beat the rap (if they could) and double the price. I know we would all line up at that point. Then in a year we would have a new law to lament, never mind. Bah


I know what this man needs, bring me the bourbon!
-CK Medic 538

[nadodave]

What if you can prove that you can bumpfire (manually, with standard trigger) as fast as this trigger works?

I mean, that's what this and the slidefire stock are for, right? make bump firing easier and/or more accurate.

So if I bump fire at 100 rounds a minute (I just picked a number, don't mind it) and this trigger I can do the same....



Again, of course you would need a test case, but just a thought.

[IPSICK]

So why have they never banned this:

http://www.pachd.com/free-images/household-images/rubber-band-01.jpg

m5XzQ1BS7gU

Those legislators must be getting lazy. :p

[SC_SD]

So why have they never banned this:

http://www.pachd.com/free-images/household-images/rubber-band-01.jpg

Those legislators must be getting lazy. :p


They have.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/ATF-shoestring-machine-gun-2007.jpg

There is no doubt whatsoever that if intent to mfg. a machine gun applies to a shoestring, it applies to a rubberband as well.

[IPSICK]

They have.


There is no doubt whatsoever that if intent to mfg. a machine gun applies to a shoestring, it applies to a rubberband as well.

Never saw that before. Interesting.

[SC_SD]

^ yep

[IPSICK]

So speaking Federally, how is the Slide Fire legal especially as opposed to a rubber band? Also Federally, how is this trigger legal in light of the text in that letter. Both of them state they have approval letters from BATFE.

[rootuser]

So speaking Federally, how is the Slide Fire legal especially as opposed to a rubber band? Also Federally, how is this trigger legal in light of the text in that letter. Both of them state they have approval letters from BATFE.

The trick is the definition of automatic I think. 1 pull of the trigger = 1 round and therefore it is still semi-automatic. Technically, the rubber-band is the same.

The shoe-string's application was a bit different. Read the description presented by the DOJ.

"The string was attached to the cocking handle of a semi-automatic rifle and was looped around the trigger and attached to the shooters finger. The device caused the weapon to fire repeatedly until finger pressure was released from the string".

This trick had been around since I was a kid and is/was definitely illegal. The gun fires basically like an automatic in the sense that when you apply pressure to the string (not the trigger, the string), it keeps firing (yes its bumping) until you release the pressure from the string.

With this trigger, if I pull and hold the trigger, it fires once. There is no string or anything that I can pull and hold to simulate automatic fire.

The rubber-band trick has been done a couple of ways I have seen, but the most common of just using it to put tension on the trigger is probably not illegal because it still requires me to pull the trigger each time for one shot. ** Let me clarify, illegal according to the fed, in California, just assume everything is illegal.


Just my 2 cents. YMMV. Don't be dumb and test what I have written.

Found a good picture to illustrate:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/shoestring-machinegun.jpg

[SC_SD]

The trick is the definition of automatic I think. 1 pull of the trigger = 1 round and therefore it is still semi-automatic. Technically, the rubber-band is the same.

The shoe-string's application was a bit different. Read the description presented by the DOJ.

"The string was attached to the cocking handle of a semi-automatic rifle and was looped around the trigger and attached to the shooters finger. The device caused the weapon to fire repeatedly until finger pressure was released from the string".
...
With this trigger, if I pull and hold the trigger, it fires once. There is no string or anything that I can pull and hold to simulate automatic fire.


Correct. The main gist is that each individual pull of the trigger by a finger delivers one shot fired.

So speaking Federally, how is the Slide Fire legal especially as opposed to a rubber band? Also Federally, how is this trigger legal in light of the text in that letter. Both of them state they have approval letters from BATFE.

The slidefire is dependent on finger tension to fire each individual shot, same as a semi automatic. Since the rearward recoil is the only aspect of the mechanism (unlike the akins accelerator which used a spring to create forward tension) there is no added mechanism. Recoil is present in all shots fired from any firearm, and the finger tension is needed to engage a trigger past the sear in all individual shots from any semi-automatic. That is why it doesn't violate the above ATF letter.

The reason why the slidefire is not allowed in CA is most likely because of the specific language in the CA PC -- "power-driven trigger activating device".

For slidefire, he power-driven component appears to be the stock that allows for recoil to be directed forward into the shooters finger. For the 3RMR, it's not apparent that it would fall under the purview of the PC. Bill takes a very conservative view (as is safe).

[Quiet]

IMO...

Spend the $500 on training instead of a gimmicky trigger system that can bring you grief as a "multiburst trigger activator".

On a side note:
we need to get Jerry Miculek to be defined as to what the standard rate of fire should be (5 round in about 0.5 seconds) using a standard AR15 trigger system.
a7eV2JzbvXM

[infringed711]

I'm not gonna get one because I can't afford it but I can't see how they would be illegal in any way...it's just a well designed trigger light trigger with a short reset

[JoshuaS]

Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.

It is not that
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.
So it would have to be this. But the "device" is the trigger itself, not something attached to it.

And one could easily mod a trigger to have less take up, smoother pull, shorter reset and that would "increase the rate of fire" but be perfectly legal. On the other hand, the small design element that mechanically causes the trigger to reset might run afoul?

Frankly it could go either way in interpretation. I wouldn't want to bet my liberty on it.

[Untamed1972]

It is not that

So it would have to be this. But the "device" is the trigger itself, not something attached to it.

And one could easily mod a trigger to have less take up, smoother pull, shorter reset and that would "increase the rate of fire" but be perfectly legal. On the other hand, the small design element that mechanically causes the trigger to reset might run afoul?

Frankly it could go either way in interpretation. I wouldn't want to bet my liberty on it.

That's how I read it......the only thing activating the trigger is your finger.....and it still only fires one round per trigger pull.

[e90bmw]

They posted the ATF letter defining it as a semi-auto trigger.
http://tacfirecon.com/wp-content/uploads/TAC-CON-TM-ATF-Approval-Letter.pdf

They submitted the device to the ATF to drop into an AR.
"In the course of our evaluation. FTB personnel installed the submitted 3MR(TM) trigger into an AR type rifle housed in the ATF Firearms Collection for test firing. During this phase, a function test was conducted before a live-fire was conducted. The 3MR(TM) functioned only semi-automatically during both the field test and live firing.

In conclusion, FTB has determined that the 3MR(TM) trigger assembly is not a part or combination of parts that will convert a semiautomatic firearm into a machinegun. Your sample wll be returned via the FedEx account number you provided in your cover letter."

The feds have stamped the item as a semiautomatic trigger.
They will be providing the letter with each trigger sold.

So how will this run afoul of Ca. laws? It's not a machine gun device. The ATF has tested it and determined it to be a semiauto trigger with three modes, one being rapid reset.

[Fate]

Yep...that's my thinking. So if the gun came with a trigger that only fired at the rate of "increased rate of fire" of this device, but still only fired one round per trigger pull....that would be legal would it not?

So what they need to say is: "This device does not INCREASE the rate of fire...it just has a setting that allows one to DECREASE the rate of fire if they choose." There....problem solved.

But I fail to see how having the option to switch between 2 semi-auto "rates of fire" changes anything? They're both still semi-auto. It seems all it's really doing is switching the trigger to a setting that has a lighter, shorter trigger pull.

So can I get mine with a ambi-selector switch? :D
Agree. I think it's CA legal. Now that doesn't mean I think you'll be free from LEO/DA interaction should you catch someone's interest.

[AKSOG]

I'm interested but ill wait for the legal experts to opine on the legal status

[Quiet]

So how will this run afoul of Ca. laws? It's not a machine gun device. The ATF has tested it and determined it to be a semiauto trigger with three modes, one being rapid reset.
Because CA has "multiburst trigger activator" laws that prohibits items that increase the rate of fire of a firearm.

And what determines if it is a "multiburst trigger activator" is up to individual LEOs (arrest/confiscation/jail) and the 58 DA's Offices (plea bargaining/trial) to decide upon.

In addition, due to the use of the third selector position it may cause LEOs to deduce it is a MG and arrest/confiscate/jail for that & let the lab techs/DA's Office figure it out.

[Rated R]

What if I put Jerry on my AR trigger? I'm not sure if that would be legal in California as it would speed up the firing capability significantly (5 rounds in 1 second)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE

[Bobula]

You could argue that its not attached if its a critical internal part of the gun?

[Quiet]

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...

Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.

[Wiz-of-Awd]

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...

Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.

No, it does not.

A.W.D.

[stix213]

Looks fun. If the trigger system works as I think, where it actually forces a reset of the trigger even under constant pressure, I think that would be a problem.

What I find pretty interesting though, is the rate of fire didn't actually seem all that high. When I've bumped fired, I seem to dump rounds at a much faster rate than this trigger. So does it actually increase the rate of fire?

[rootuser]

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...

Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.

This is always the case, good call.

We hear time and time again people here saying "The police can't do that" and even some police officer chiming in saying "we can't do that", then one has to spend 3 seconds looking and can find numerous instances of where the police did exactly 100% what they were not supposed to, and you as new defendant have to defend yourself with no consequences to anyone else but you.

Until we hold our police strictly accountable (will not happen), and our DAs as well, innocent people will continue to be arrested (maybe not convicted, but maybe so).

[starsnuffer]

Reminds me of the old airgun designs automag RT paintball gun. Had about the same exact conversation 15 years ago within the rules of the sport. It ended up being made legal, but shortly after the electronic triggers became popular so it really didn't matter.

-W

[tommyid1]

Tippman jad a reactive trigger like that as well. All that stuff went by the wayside.once emarkers started.coming out.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[gsrious]

i still have my tippman a5 with the response trigger. :D

[colossians323]

eQtCTUq4Y_I


Love the slow motion tactical slide

[alfred1222]

I pre-ordered a few, they can go in my SBR and i wont have to wait the years/spend the money to get a "real" MG

[JackRydden224]

We got a lot of discussion and clearly nobody wants to be that first guy in CA to get arrested for it. So I emailed the CA DOJ asking them for their ruling on it. I told them that the ATF gave it an OK but I want to make sure of its legality in CA.

I'll post a response if I ever get one.

[speeedracerr]

We got a lot of discussion and clearly nobody wants to be that first guy in CA to get arrested for it. So I emailed the CA DOJ asking them for their ruling on it. I told them that the ATF gave it an OK but I want to make sure of its legality in CA.

I'll post a response if I ever get one.

Please keep us updated... Seems like a cool gadget, but the price and risk is another story.

[speeedracerr]

By the way, I did email Tac-Con to see if they have received a determination from CA DOJ, or know the legality of it's use in California and guarantees if their product is legal for use here in the people's republic.

HERE IS THEIR RESPONSE BELOW:

Unfortunatley, we cannot give anyone a guarantee, however, we can tell you our thoughts.

I have highlighted the parts of the California law for you and we believe this is how we do not fall into either (a) or (b) of 16930. The 3MR trigger fires one round for every pull of the trigger so we do not fall into (a) because it does NOT burst, burst meaning more than one round fired within a single function of the trigger. In (b) the trigger is NOT an "activating device" the trigger is trigger. That is NOT the important distinction in (b). See were it says, "It increases the rate of fire of that firearm". Attach a moving stock and you will see the rate of fire that that semi-automatic firearm is capable of. Although it is almost impossible, you do see some unique people who can fire that weapon at just under those speeds without altering the firearm in any way. Now the 3MR is fast but it never reaches the rate of fire the firearm is capable of and can never increase the firearms rate of fire. The 3MR trigger allows any shooter to improve their rate of fire but does not affect the rate of fire of the firearm. It is like this, the rate of fire of a weapon is a constant say 800 rounds per minute. There is no way in this world that anyone can pull the trigger that fast. Try it, attempt to move your finger 13.3 times the length of a trigger pull in one second. The 3MR trigger uses the positive reset and allows the shooter to gauge the timing as well as shortens the reset time. Hence a faster shooter not a faster firearm. But we did not design the 3MR trigger for just speed, it was also designed for controllability. In the video you watch a former Marine fire the weapon very quickly but the impacts fall within a very tight group.

Penal Code 16930
As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

Penal Code 32900
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any multiburst trigger activator is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision

Customer Service

Tac-Con™

Therefore take it for what it is... but getting clarification from CA DOJ would probably be a good idea before anyone considering this. I'm thinking of one, but leaving it at my sisters house in NV if it's a NO-GO here in CALI.

[mpwang]

Hello, all

Some might be interested in this.

One of the videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnDoQtSH7NM

Per the ATF (letter below) this is not a machine gun.

http://i.imgur.com/6qZFFFy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iZwMVcH.jpg

[Merc1138]

Doesn't matter if the ATF thinks it isn't a machine gun, or declares it to be a piece of fruit. CA DOJ doesn't have to use the ATF's definitions of anything.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=851808

[The Paper Pimp]

doesn't matter what ATF says, it's what DOJ says

[AlexDD]

Even it was declared legal in a court case, DeLeon or another legislator would just legislate out of existence in the next possible session.

[mpwang]

I had forgotten the Cal DOJ.

Let me rephrase, I don't really care either way. But I know it had come up at least a couple times in these forums.

[sffred]

Tagged

[Capybara]

CADOJ will not go for this, at all, end of story. Remember, if it is cool and fun (Slidefire, Tannerite, Modern SBRs, Suppressors, Machine Guns), California says no.

[bragmardo]

Even it was declared legal in a court case, DeLeon or another legislator would just legislate out of existence in the next possible session.They might try, but I doubt that they could succeed. The mechanism appears to rely on the force of trigger reset exceeding the trigger pull at letoff. Defining this technicality in Constitutionally defensible legislation would present a big challenge.

[JackRydden224]

I'm stilling waiting for CA DOJ to get back to me. They probably won't but I'd be very curious what their decision on this is.

Now I have a question for the lawyers from the court's POV, if this is not illegal does it make it legal? Meaning if CA DOJ has not banned this product does it mean it is legal until they ban it?

[Tincon]

In (b) the trigger is NOT an "activating device" the trigger is trigger. That is NOT the important distinction in (b). See were it says, "It increases the rate of fire of that firearm". Attach a moving stock and you will see the rate of fire that that semi-automatic firearm is capable of. Although it is almost impossible, you do see some unique people who can fire that weapon at just under those speeds without altering the firearm in any way. Now the 3MR is fast but it never reaches the rate of fire the firearm is capable of and can never increase the firearms rate of fire. The 3MR trigger allows any shooter to improve their rate of fire but does not affect the rate of fire of the firearm. It is like this, the rate of fire of a weapon is a constant say 800 rounds per minute. There is no way in this world that anyone can pull the trigger that fast. Try it, attempt to move your finger 13.3 times the length of a trigger pull in one second. The 3MR trigger uses the positive reset and allows the shooter to gauge the timing as well as shortens the reset time. Hence a faster shooter not a faster firearm.

Seems to me they are making a dangerous assumption that where the penal code says "increases the rate of fire of that firearm" what they really mean is "increases the theoretical mechanical rate of fire" and not "increases the effective rate of fire."

[Tincon]

I'm stilling waiting for CA DOJ to get back to me. They probably won't but I'd be very curious what their decision on this is.


Most likely you will keep waiting. The CADOJ found that establishing positions on things was inconvenient when calgunners kept finding ways around them.


Now I have a question for the lawyers from the court's POV, if this is not illegal does it make it legal? Meaning if CA DOJ has not banned this product does it mean it is legal until they ban it?

Not a lawyer, but in absolutely no way whatsoever does DOJ's silence on an issue equate to legality. In fact, even if they said it WAS legal, that would be helpful but not dispositive.

[Librarian]

They might try, but I doubt that they could succeed. The mechanism appears to rely on the force of trigger reset exceeding the trigger pull at letoff. Defining this technicality in Constitutionally defensible legislation would present a big challenge.

Have you read the recent magazine law?

They don't need to produce "Constitutionally defensible legislation"; they need to raise enough FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) that even those weakly allergic to jails will decide it's a bad idea.

[VendetAR]

I'm stilling waiting for CA DOJ to get back to me. They probably won't but I'd be very curious what their decision on this is.

Now I have a question for the lawyers from the court's POV, if this is not illegal does it make it legal? Meaning if CA DOJ has not banned this product does it mean it is legal until they ban it?

a jury of your peers would be the ones who decide if it is legal or illegal in this case. So, unless you want to be the test case to see how that goes, you stay on the side of utmost caution.

There are certain things I would be willing to be tried for but using this doo hickey wouldn't be one of em.

[stix213]

CA DOJ doesn't make determinations anymore. They prefer to just say all the various DA's may have a different opinion, and leave it ambiguous. Basically discouraging use of potentially completely legal products by instilling fear.

[bragmardo]

Have you read the recent magazine law?

They don't need to produce "Constitutionally defensible legislation"; they need to raise enough FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) that even those weakly allergic to jails will decide it's a bad idea.Never mind Heller and its progeny. Just tell me how to avoid unconstitutional vagueness in banning this contraption.

[JackRydden224]

a jury of your peers would be the ones who decide if it is legal or illegal in this case. So, unless you want to be the test case to see how that goes, you stay on the side of utmost caution.

There are certain things I would be willing to be tried for but using this doo hickey wouldn't be one of em.

Never mind Heller and its progeny. Just tell me how to avoid unconstitutional vagueness in banning this contraption.

Meaning guilty until proven innocent :chris:

[VendetAR]

Meaning guilty until proven innocent :chris:

More or less

[Germz]

Meaning guilty until proven innocent :chris:

Thats the regular beat of the drum in the military...I'm not too worried.

[Librarian]

Never mind Heller and its progeny. Just tell me how to avoid unconstitutional vagueness in banning this contraption.

To repeat, the legislature does not need to do that.

We'd like them to be informed, accurate, and legal in the laws they propose. California, however, has no interest in any of those when it comes to guns.

The point of most of the CA gun laws is to create a climate of uncertainty and menace that discourages gun ownership and use. They want folks thinking 'do I want to be the test case here?'

Is this new gadget a 'multi-burst trigger activator'? I have no idea. I don't think an experienced California gun attorney can tell either of us yes or no.

[lehn20]

So if they just made it as Safe and Fire like any regular trigegr with no 3rd mode, then it would just be a quick semi auto trigger, since you have to press the trigger every time?

[Barbarossa]

I'm waiting for a two finger paintball trigger lol

[h0use]

I'm waiting for a two finger paintball trigger lol

They all ready have one lol

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/06/e8udu6a4.jpg

[bragmardo]

To repeat, the legislature does not need to do that.

We'd like them to be informed, accurate, and legal in the laws they propose. California, however, has no interest in any of those when it comes to guns.

The point of most of the CA gun laws is to create a climate of uncertainty and menace that discourages gun ownership and use. They want folks thinking 'do I want to be the test case here?'

Is this new gadget a 'multi-burst trigger activator'? I have no idea. I don't think an experienced California gun attorney can tell either of us yes or no.FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) is a tactic in no way limited to the California legislature. Fortunately, our legal system provides a method for defeating it. To repeat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=12820914&postcount=85) myself, declaratory judgments permit parties to a controversy to determine rights, duties, obligations, or status. They are provided for by both federal and state law: 28 U.S.C. §§2201-02 and Calif.Code.Civ.Proc. § 1060-1062.5; see also the Uniform Declaratory Judgment Act.

A California case in point is Zeitlin v. Arnebergh (http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/zeitlin-v-arnebergh-27177), 59 Cal.2d 901 [31 Cal.Rptr. 800, 383 P.2d 152, 10 A.L.R.3d 707] (1963), where in a seminal First Amendment ruling the court held that the plaintiffs were entitled to a declaratory judgment that the book Tropic of Cancer was not obscene within the meaning of section 311 of the California Penal Code and that their sale of this book would not violate § 311.2 of the Penal Code. In the matter at hand, the plaintiffs would be clarifying their rights under the Second Amendment, by suing for a declaratory judgment that Tac-con's 3MR trigger does not constitute a "multiburst trigger activator" within the meaning of Penal Code § 16930, and therefore its possession is not sanctionable under Penal Code § 32900. The same principle applies to any matter in which the CA DOJ declines to affirm or deny the legality of a firearm accessory, and extends to any future legislative attempts at instilling fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

[Librarian]

FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) is a tactic in no way limited to the California legislature. Fortunately, our legal system provides a method for defeating it. To repeat (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=12820914&postcount=85) myself, declaratory judgments permit parties to a controversy to determine rights, duties, obligations, or status. They are provided for by both federal and state law: 28 U.S.C. §§2201-02 and Calif.Code.Civ.Proc. § 1060-1062.5; see also the Uniform Declaratory Judgment Act.

A California case in point is Zeitlin v. Arnebergh (http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/zeitlin-v-arnebergh-27177), 59 Cal.2d 901 [31 Cal.Rptr. 800, 383 P.2d 152, 10 A.L.R.3d 707] (1963), where in a seminal First Amendment ruling the court held that the plaintiffs were entitled to a declaratory judgment that the book Tropic of Cancer was not obscene within the meaning of section 311 of the California Penal Code and that their sale of this book would not violate § 311.2 of the Penal Code. In the matter at hand, the plaintiffs would be clarifying their rights under the Second Amendment, by suing for a declaratory judgment that Tac-con's 3MR trigger does not constitute a "multiburst trigger activator" within the meaning of Penal Code § 16930, and therefore its possession is not sanctionable under Penal Code § 32900. The same principle applies to any matter in which the CA DOJ declines to affirm or deny the legality of a firearm accessory, and extends to any future legislative attempts at instilling fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Fine.

The manufacturers, or someone the court agrees has standing, should bring suit. I'll be happy to accept the opinion of the court on the matter as definitive.

But that does put us back to 'who wants to be the test case?'

[RamonSJC]

I volunteer! Do I get one free?

[bragmardo]

Fine.

The manufacturers, or someone the court agrees has standing, should bring suit. I'll be happy to accept the opinion of the court on the matter as definitive.

But that does put us back to 'who wants to be the test case?'Standing shouldn't be an issue. If Zeitlin could bring forth his claim under the First Amendment based on his desire to sell a banned book without exposing himself to criminal liability, so can you and I in the matter at hand, mutatis mutandis under the Second Amendment. The interesting question is who will pay the legal bills to provide Automatic for the People. I suggest that Calguns Foundation should step up to the plate. It's the least they owe us for compromising state preemption in Calguns Foundation, Inc., et al v San Mateo County.

[kyle.]

Legally, if you install it on a build that you start with a stripped lower, should be okay. It is semi-auto, no two ways about it. And it wasn't a modification, it was built with that trigger originally.

Also, increasing the ROF on an AR style weapon means going from a rifle length upper to a carbine length upper. Because it cycles faster. So don't buy a rifle length rifle and put a carbine upper on it, because that, by letter of law, is a machinegun in California.

Thirdly and lastly, attached to is not installation of replacement parts. Slidefire/3mr is replacement, shoestring is attachment.

We must fight for definition of not just law, but of the words it is constructed of.

[kyle.]

Seems to me they are making a dangerous assumption that where the penal code says "increases the rate of fire of that firearm" what they really mean is "increases the theoretical mechanical rate of fire" and not "increases the effective rate of fire."

It does not increase theoretical mechanical rate of fire. If you can control a milspec trigger, you can shoot just as fast. It just makes it easier for someone with less trigger time able to shoot quickly.

[VendetAR]

Also, increasing the ROF on an AR style weapon means going from a rifle length upper to a carbine length upper. Because it cycles faster. So don't buy a rifle length rifle and put a carbine upper on it, because that, by letter of law, is a machinegun in California.


Umm what?

That is just blantantly false. A gun that cycles faster is not a machinegun. A machine gun fires more than one bullet for each trigger press. It could cycle at the speed of light and not be a MG.

Id suggest sitting back and read the law before you jump in here with crap like that.

[riddler408]

I am gonna save up for one... Now I don't plan on using it here in CA. I will test it out of state and keep it in the safe.....

[kyle.]

Umm what?

That is just blantantly false. A gun that cycles faster is not a machinegun. A machine gun fires more than one bullet for each trigger press. It could cycle at the speed of light and not be a MG.

Id suggest sitting back and read the law before you jump in here with crap like that.

As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

I am aware of what a machine gun is. Penal code is not.

That part, literally dissected, means that ANY trigger activating device, constructed and designed so that when it is ATTACHED to a semiautomatic firearm it increases ROF.

So, with a very basic understanding of physics, you'd know that the only way to increase the rate of fire on firearms like the M4/M16 style semiautomatic rifles is to shorten the gas system and strengthen the buffer spring in order to use higher pressure and a faster bolt return.

I'd suggest being polite and use reading comprehension skills before speaking out of turn.

I appreciate your criticism, but, you are wrong.

By letter of law, if you attach an attachment to a semiautomatic rifle and make it cycle "at the speed of light," by CA PC standards, you have constructed a machine gun.

To take that one step further, if you manufacture a receiver into a rifle, and use the 3MR trigger, you have not increased the rate of fire. You have made a rifle with the rate of fire that it has.

[Tincon]

To take that one step further, if you manufacture a receiver into a rifle, and use the 3MR trigger, you have not increased the rate of fire. You have made a rifle with the rate of fire that it has.

There is a problem there, a catch-22. Any rifle you build must be based on the design of a licensed manufacturer, otherwise it's a zip gun. I'm not sure you can simultaneously argue that a gun is not a zip gun, but has a faster rate of fire than the manufacturer's design "because it was made that way." Not saying your argument would not work, but there are certainly potential problems. Of course this argument also would not apply to any rifle which was modified to swap out the existing trigger for the 3MR, only for virgin receiver builds. I still would not want to try it.

[kyle.]

There is a problem there, a catch-22. Any rifle you build must be based on the design of a licensed manufacturer, otherwise it's a zip gun. I'm not sure you can simultaneously argue that a gun is not a zip gun, but has a faster rate of fire than the manufacturer's design "because it was made that way." Not saying your argument would not work, but there are certainly potential problems. Of course this argument also would not apply to any rifle which was modified to swap out the existing trigger for the 3MR, only for virgin receiver builds. I still would not want to try it.

Then that is like saying a drop in stock for a 10/22 would be a zip gun.

I'm not arguing with you, I am arguing with the asinine laws.

Manufacturing a receiver into a rifle is fine, as long as it is not for profit or is done by a licensed dealer.

For a zip gun I would only be concerned if the receiver was for example an AR receiver and was in turn built into a bullpup, as that differs from design.
By that logic though, AR pistols are zip guns which they clearly are not.

All gun laws are just dumb.

[kyle.]

Furthermore, if a receiver was DROS'd and on a 4473, tax paid, it is not a zip gun.

[VendetAR]

As used in this part, a "multiburst trigger activator" means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

I am aware of what a machine gun is. Penal code is not.

That part, literally dissected, means that ANY trigger activating device, constructed and designed so that when it is ATTACHED to a semiautomatic firearm it increases ROF.

So, with a very basic understanding of physics, you'd know that the only way to increase the rate of fire on firearms like the M4/M16 style semiautomatic rifles is to shorten the gas system and strengthen the buffer spring in order to use higher pressure and a faster bolt return.

I'd suggest being polite and use reading comprehension skills before speaking out of turn.

I appreciate your criticism, but, you are wrong.

By letter of law, if you attach an attachment to a semiautomatic rifle and make it cycle "at the speed of light," by CA PC standards, you have constructed a machine gun.

To take that one step further, if you manufacture a receiver into a rifle, and use the 3MR trigger, you have not increased the rate of fire. You have made a rifle with the rate of fire that it has.

The gas system does not activate the trigger though, hence my WHAT comment.

While the bolded part may make it seem like that meets the letter of the law, the gas tube length would need to somehow make it possible to make the trigger shoot multi burst shots once activated. The only time I think that would be the case is if you had a severely malfunctioning rifle on the verge of being a run away gun, but due to the longer gas system, was unable to do it. By changing it to a carbine system made it run away or machine gun, then yes, that would fall under the multi burst trigger activator, but would actually be a machine gun, which has a different section of the law.

A properly running rifle would never be able to do that though, thus what you claimed is false.

[kyle.]

You mis-read. The tac-con trigger is a trigger, not an activating device. An activating device is a string, popsicle stick, wind up finger, etc... A trigger is a trigger is a trigger. The law is specific, it's the individual interpretation of the wording that leaves it vague. Law is law. If CADOJ doesn't like it, then they have to amend the laws.

I understand that, which is why I said its good to go. Litigation wiggle room finds itself if you install it on a factory rifle vs. a build.


While the bolded part may make it seem like that meets the letter of the law, the gas tube length would need to somehow make it possible to make the trigger shoot multi burst shots once activated. The only time I think that would be the case is if you had a severely malfunctioning rifle on the verge of being a run away gun, but due to the longer gas system, was unable to do it. By changing it to a carbine system made it run away or machine gun, then yes, that would fall under the multi burst trigger activator, but would actually be a machine gun, which has a different section of the law.

Correct. So by your own wording, and by the prerequisites set by CADOJ, and by simple understanding of how a machine gun vs. a semi-automatic rifle
functions, is it safe to say the 3MR is NOT a multi-burst trigger activator?


Scenario-you get arrested by an officer of the law that doesn't understand aforementioned functions. You get booked, arraigned, and your fair and speedy trial.

You are being judged by a judge who you have no clue if they are a shooter or not, and being evaluated for guilt by jurors who are too ****ing stupid to get out of jury duty.

Your legal representation brings in its star SME witness, an ATF agent of the NFA branch, probably their chief firearms technology researcher WHO SIGNED THE LETTER, and has him/her explain briefly why it is not a machine gun.

Prosecution calls DOJ as their witness, and the DOJ has to explain that there hasn't been a ruling as to whether or not it is or is not a multi-burst trigger activator.

Would I want to be in that position? No. Would I be worried? Maybe, but I wouldn't have much to worry about. You'd have federal firearms "experts" backing you saying it doesn't make an AR a machine gun. The most the state can do is get a ruling from the DOJ, in which case(if they find it illegal), you could plea for immunity because, at the time, it was not illegal.

#notalawyer

[VendetAR]

Correct. So by your own wording, and by the prerequisites set by CADOJ, and by simple understanding of how a machine gun vs. a semi-automatic rifle
functions, is it safe to say the 3MR is NOT a multi-burst trigger activator?


Scenario-you get arrested by an officer of the law that doesn't understand aforementioned functions. You get booked, arraigned, and your fair and speedy trial.

You are being judged by a judge who you have no clue if they are a shooter or not, and being evaluated for guilt by jurors who are too ****ing stupid to get out of jury duty.

Your legal representation brings in its star SME witness, an ATF agent of the NFA branch, probably their chief firearms technology researcher WHO SIGNED THE LETTER, and has him/her explain briefly why it is not a machine gun.

Prosecution calls DOJ as their witness, and the DOJ has to explain that there hasn't been a ruling as to whether or not it is or is not a multi-burst trigger activator.

Would I want to be in that position? No. Would I be worried? Maybe, but I wouldn't have much to worry about. You'd have federal firearms "experts" backing you saying it doesn't make an AR a machine gun. The most the state can do is get a ruling from the DOJ, in which case(if they find it illegal), you could plea for immunity because, at the time, it was not illegal.

#notalawyer

What you are saying right now is not what I am talking about. I agree with you and have said as much earlier in this thread.

I was calling you out on saying that by the wording in the law, increasing the speed in which the bolt flies back and then locks into battery has nothing to do with it being a multi burst trigger activator.

Maybe Im missing your point and you were being facetious about that, but it seemed like you thought that you were being super technical in the reading of the law.

[kyle.]

What you are saying right now is not what I am talking about. I agree with you and have said as much earlier in this thread.

I was calling you out on saying that by the wording in the law, increasing the speed in which the bolt flies back and then locks into battery has nothing to do with it being a multi burst trigger activator.

Maybe Im missing your point and you were being facetious about that, but it seemed like you thought that you were being super technical in the reading of the law.

1-The only POSSIBLE thing to make the bolt move quicker on the trigger's end is a lighter hammer spring, which would provide less resistance upon cycling. In theory.
Do law makers understand this? No. They understand law, and they have a basic understanding of what a gun looks like and no clue how they work.

2-The law is simply written as it is. By its own definitions and structure, slidefire and 3mr are legal.

A coworker of mine explained it to me like this-there are three degrees that items like this fall under-Safe, Legal, and Lawyer Safe. The 3MR is Safe and Legal. It hasn't been lawyer tested yet, however, I am willing to bet the letter from the ATF will be more than worth its weight in gold should an interaction with law enforcement occur.

[kyle.]

You can put the tac-con trigger in any AR pattern rifle. IT DOES NOT MATTER. It's a trigger. Everyone needs to CTFO.

Also, to caveat, I have never seen a semi-automatic rifle with civilian advertisement have an advertised rate of fire, so, unless the manufacturer includes that information in the manual, neither you nor CADOJ knows if the ROF has been increased.

[Experimentalist]

While there are issues with Kyles posts already addressed, I believe there is a seed of truth in one of his statements.

My understanding is that the cyclic rate of gas operated systems on full auto will be higher if the gas system is shorter (i.e. the gas port is closer to the chamber). This is because the system is under slightly higher pressure for a slightly longer time (all other things being equal).

[VendetAR]

1-The only POSSIBLE thing to make the bolt move quicker on the trigger's end is a lighter hammer spring, which would provide less resistance upon cycling. In theory.
Do law makers understand this? No. They understand law, and they have a basic understanding of what a gun looks like and no clue how they work.

You said that putting a CARBINE gas system in place of a RIFLE gas system was the equivalent of building a MG by CA law. I wasnt talking about the trigger end at all

2-The law is simply written as it is. By its own definitions and structure, slidefire and 3mr are legal.

They are by my reading, but it would be up to 12 dumb come idiotic people to determine that.

A coworker of mine explained it to me like this-there are three degrees that items like this fall under-Safe, Legal, and Lawyer Safe. The 3MR is Safe and Legal. It hasn't been lawyer tested yet, however, I am willing to bet the letter from the ATF will be more than worth its weight in gold should an interaction with law enforcement occur.[

Your friend is smart, but never assume a letter is worth aything more than the paper its written on. Look at our Constitution for proof.


...

[VendetAR]

While there are issues with Kyles posts already addressed, I believe there is a seed of truth in one of his statements.

My understanding is that the cyclic rate of gas operated systems on full auto will be higher if the gas system is shorter (i.e. the gas port is closer to the chamber). This is because the system is under slightly higher pressure for a slightly longer time (all other things being equal).

You are correct although Id argue that there isn't slightly more pressure between the two systems, there is a lot more. This is why carbines and pistol builds eat themselves alive. Build a middy and your parts will live a happy life.

[kyle.]

...

That's a horrible attitude to have. Our Constitution is worth more than the paper it is on, regardless of what some scumbag in any given position tries to do with it. Come time, that constitution will draw a line in the sand, and when it is crossed, big changes will happen.

Those 12 dumb people are going to have to listen briefly to the country's top firearms expert say that the 3mr is "not a multi-burst trigger activator." There is very little to argue with about that. And since the DOJ has stayed silent, as they usually do, there are likely to be minimal repercussions if any.

Given that a rifle that is legal pursuant to CA PC's and no laws were broken. Of course.

[Dead*Reckoned]

Planes, elevators, staircases, balloons, and stepstools are all multi-burst trigger activators as defined by CA legislature. By raising elevation, and decreasing the force of gravity, time moves at a faster rate (thanks Einstein!);therefore, even if you are pulling the trigger at the same rate, you will be shooting faster in reference to ground level. You are all felons, prove me wrong.

[VendetAR]

Planes, elevators, staircases, balloons, and stepstools are all multi-burst trigger activators as defined by CA legislature. By raising elevation, and decreasing the force of gravity, time moves at a faster rate (thanks Einstein!);therefore, even if you are pulling the trigger at the same rate, you will be shooting faster in reference to ground level. You are all felons, prove me wrong.

But did the plane, elevator ect pull the trigger after it was activated to shoot more than one round?

If we wanna talk about space time, the antis eyes will glaze over and say gravity is illegal lol

[Dead*Reckoned]

But did the plane, elevator ect pull the trigger after it was activated to shoot more than one round?

If we wanna talk about space time, the antis eyes will glaze over and say gravity is illegal lol

Thing about multiburst trigger activators is that they don't have to touch the trigger, as seen by the slidefire. If it increases the rate of fire, by any rate other than human intervention it is a MBTA is what i'm understanding, lol.

[epilepticninja]

You can put the tac-con trigger in any AR pattern rifle. IT DOES NOT MATTER. It's a trigger. Everyone needs to CTFO.

Agreed. A recent article on it states that the third position does nothing more than allow for a shorter reset. I'm going to get one. Probably will only use the third setting when I'm around individuals that aren't going to trip. Hope to not end up being the test case, but damn the gun laws here are stupid as ****.

[kel-tec-innovations]

Ok, after viewing how the device works and reading the thread here is my conclusion. I hope this should put things into perspective. Let me know if I did a good job at explaining this.

How I see the Tac Con trigger:

Current triggers we have on our guns (pretend its double action only with long travel and heavy weight)

Tac on trigger (pretend its a double action trigger with single action trigger option at a lighter pull with less travel)

Single action would speed up the rate of fire with less trigger travel and weight to pull vs. double action only, but both will still require one trigger pull per shot.



In my understanding, no its not a multi-burst tirgger. Tac-con is just a refined trigger like changing a double action only gun to a double action with light single action option.

This is the best example I can come up with to explain this device. Like a revolver DAO trigger upgraded to a STI single action race gun trigger.

If Tac-con refined trigger is illegal or considered a multi-burst trigger then all after market trigger kits or polishing your trigger for a lighter pull would be illegal.



Would I buy one? no, a tuned trigger will shoot fast enough (magpul video comes to mind)

Would CA DOJ make it illegal? who knows, most laws are ridiculous and passed on FUD or illogical reasons.



------------

From the arguments I've read. Its like we all own double action only revolver, a brand new pistol with a new technology called single action trigger is released and people are bickering that it speeds of the rate of firing and its illegal when all it is less trigger travel, less trigger weight and faster resets. Its no different than a competition trigger IMHO


Geissele S3G Trigger
PJOpTjycK90

FDLjfW_LJnE

[umd]

There was a review today on the firearm blog; they weren't impressed...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/13/impressions-tac-con-3mr-full-auto-trigger/

[kel-tec-innovations]

There was a review today on the firearm blog; they weren't impressed...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/13/impressions-tac-con-3mr-full-auto-trigger/

Yea, didn't hear about this until Mac talked about it on Facebook. I'd stick with a competition trigger. $500 is steep. I think what made it stand out or a stir was the selector lever

[h0use]

Shot one at shotshow. It's pretty legit. Reminds me of a paintball gun trigger on a angel.

[dtrump]

The legal argument is interesting there is definitely some good points but unfortunately I think they will come up with any thing to brand it illegal regardless of it being the trigger group and not acting upon the trigger like the slide fire for example.

[Rukus]

Like others have said, how is this legally different than the Geisselle SD3G trigger?

[12voltguy]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=13231048#post13231048

[Quiet]

Like others have said, how is this legally different than the Geisselle SD3G trigger?
Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...
Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.

[alfred1222]

Because of the usage of the third position on the selector, it may cause LEOs to think the firearm is a MG and arrest/jail/confiscate based on that point of view.

Bottom line, you have to ask yourself...
Does this $500 gimmick trigger system worth running the risk of having your property confiscated, doing jail time and spending $10,000-$30,000 in court fees to determine if it is legal in CA.

Let them go for it, its not a MG, the lower doesnt have the step cut out or the third hole. They confiscate the gun, and the lawsuit will pay for a LOT more guns for me.

Also, a trigger is a trigger, simple. The law states that if a gun fires MORE then one round with each pull of the trigger, it is a machine gun. This trigger fires one shot with every trigger pull, it just does it quickly.

[jasonnorcal]

I'd never heard of this trigger until a guy came through the shop where I work talking about it. The story he told me was that someone called the cops on him when he was at the range. LEO showed up, checked out the letter that comes with the trigger, had the guy break open his rifle to look at it. Then the LEO made the statement, "gonna have to get me 1".

I'm not that impressed really because the price and I can shoot my SD-3G pretty dang fast anyways

[12voltguy]

I'd never heard of this trigger until a guy came through the shop where I work talking about it. The story he told me was that someone called the cops on him when he was at the range. LEO showed up, checked out the letter that comes with the trigger, had the guy break open his rifle to look at it. Then the LEO made the statement, "gonna have to get me 1".

I'm not that impressed really because the price and I can shoot my SD-3G pretty dang fast anyways

well a legal full auto m4 m16 is what $15,000+ & that could be the $ of a lower or just a regestered auto sear:eek:
if you live in NV or AZ or other free state
why is $500 out of line again?

[jasonnorcal]

well a legal full auto m4 m16 is what $15,000+ & that could be the $ of a lower or just a regestered auto sear:eek:
if you live in NV or AZ or other free state
why is $500 out of line again?

Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal

[jasonnorcal]

Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal

What bothered me the most was when the guy was telling me the story and he said the someone called the cops on him........

[12voltguy]

Well yeah when you compare it to a transferable m16 then sure it looks like a great deal

i THINK THAT IS THE MARKET THEY MADE THESE FOR
THOSE THAT WANT FULL AUTO WITHOUT THE HIGH PRICE TAG
cap lock,sorry
I won't bother with 1 of these in calif though,just going to get haressed,lean to bump fire..........I need to learn better myself:) cost $$$$$$$$$ to pratice

[jasonnorcal]

i THINK THAT IS THE MARKET THEY MADE THESE FOR
THOSE THAT WANT FULL AUTO WITHOUT THE HIGH PRICE TAG
cap lock,sorry
I won't bother with 1 of these in calif though,just going to get haressed,lean to bump fire..........I need to learn better myself:) cost $$$$$$$$$ to pratice

hahaha, stop yelling at me

[cpl_dan]

I believe i can shoot faster with my own finger than spending that amount of money for a trigger that looks like it marginally increases the rate of fire but not by much. I still think the slidefire stock works better in comparison.

[6114DAVE]

I believe i can shoot faster with my own finger than spending that amount of money for a trigger that looks like it marginally increases the rate of fire but not by much. I still think the slidefire stock works better in comparison.

With a mil-spec trigger ? Maybe you can shoot as fast...but will you hit anything?

[Chewy65]

I understand that, which is why I said its good to go. Litigation wiggle room finds itself if you install it on a factory rifle vs. a build.




Correct. So by your own wording, and by the prerequisites set by CADOJ, and by simple understanding of how a machine gun vs. a semi-automatic rifle
functions, is it safe to say the 3MR is NOT a multi-burst trigger activator?


Scenario-you get arrested by an officer of the law that doesn't understand aforementioned functions. You get booked, arraigned, and your fair and speedy trial.

You are being judged by a judge who you have no clue if they are a shooter or not, and being evaluated for guilt by jurors who are too ****ing stupid to get out of jury duty.

Your legal representation brings in its star SME witness, an ATF agent of the NFA branch, probably their chief firearms technology researcher WHO SIGNED THE LETTER, and has him/her explain briefly why it is not a machine gun.

Prosecution calls DOJ as their witness, and the DOJ has to explain that there hasn't been a ruling as to whether or not it is or is not a multi-burst trigger activator.

Would I want to be in that position? No. Would I be worried? Maybe, but I wouldn't have much to worry about. You'd have federal firearms "experts" backing you saying it doesn't make an AR a machine gun. The most the state can do is get a ruling from the DOJ, in which case(if they find it illegal), you could plea for immunity because, at the time, it was not illegal.

#notalawyer

You will not be allowed to call that witness and ask that question because the charge is not whether it is a machine gun. He could be asked if it increased the rate of fire. So far the best argument IMO is that Cali law only prohibits attachments to the weapon that increase the rate of fire, but this is a trigger and a trigger is not an attachment. The actual mechanics of this still elude me but I am thinking like many it is legal, but given the Cali limit on mag capacity it is of little value, and if needed the legislature will soon amend the statute to take care of any vagueness or other "loophole".

[lhecker51]

It is a mechanical analog of a belt loop used for bump fire.

But don't tell the DOJ and our legislature that. They won't agree.

Belt loops are illegal in Kalifornia if carrying a semi auto shooty thingy. Suspenders can be worn and MUST be a color coordinated accessory to ones outfit while in possession of a semi auto shooty thingy, but must not be modified in a way that allows one to bump fire and spray bullets. Just remember that if it sounds fast and looks evil, you are so wrong.

I recommend people found in violation of this should also lose their state citizenship and deported to Arizona or other state that allows all sorts of evil shooty thingys.

[saki302]

I read a real online review of this thing-

turns out I was wrng, there's no bolt carrier assist function.

All the 3rd position does is allow a harder reset (and maybe a lighter pull? I forget). The review seems to suggest it kind of sucks.
People test firing it at SHOT also had problems getting it to run fast like the video guys.

-Dave

[riddler408]

Shot show video. Ya, not spending $500 on this!



watch?v=92dlnqCAO-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dlnqCAO-A

[riddler408]

watch?v=VnFX6mXZqxg

[cfd2474]

How about I just buy a Ghost Gun instead? Didn't you hear- it can shoot a .30 caliber clip with 30 bullets in half a second...

[mag360]

What if someone puts a tac con trigger in a ghost gun that is 26.25" long with a sg15 brace and a forward grip. DeStalin's head is exploding at the mere thought of that.

[epilepticninja]

Shot show video. Ya, not spending $500 on this!

Yeah, no shizz. wth? It doesn't look any different than a regular semi-auto trigger. I'll stick with my SSA.

[Steve_In_29]

With a mil-spec trigger ? Maybe you can shoot as fast...but will you hit anything?
And for how long could he keep up the rate of fire?

[Germz]

according to the makers, the third position has a sear that releases the disconnect from the trigger sooner, so time between actual trigger reset and following shots are shortened.

based on that, In no way does the third position "activate" the trigger for a "multiburst" operation. If anything, the third position "activates" (if you can even define it as that) the disconnect.

the trigger is still manipulated by solely by the individual.

[saki302]

As short of a reset as you want (as possible), and as short a takeup as you want (within a safety margin), and LEGAL.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-bottom-metals/triggers/ar-15-ar-style-308-ez-trigger-system-prod42038.aspx

All for sub $200. Some pooh-pooh adjustable triggers as unreliable, but it has way less parts than the 3MR.

-Dave

[BluNorthern]

Just seems like a super light trigger with a super short reset. I think it's still semi auto

That's it, a super short reset. Finger still has to manipulate the trigger for every shot.

I'm been planning on getting one since the first time I heard about it and saw the video.

[bragmardo]

That's it, a super short reset. Finger still has to manipulate the trigger for every shot.It's more than that. The reset is positive, forced by the hammer being cocked.

[Pred@tor]

If its cool and fun, then it is banned in Commiefornia.

Pretty much and sad. :(

[BigART71]

This sucks, because I wanted one.

[jaymz]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's legal. It doesn't allow "multi-burst" (2 or more rounds with one trigger pull), nor does it increase the rate of fire that the rifle is already capable of. If increasing the rate of fire equates to making the firearm shoot faster than it did when it left the assembly line, then every single firearm that's had work done to it for use as a "race gun" is a felony as well. The only problem is that politicians and prosecutors in CA don't know squat about physics or mechanics. DO NOT use this trigger in CA.

[katranch]

Looks kinda fun and very expensive. The brass was flying.

[jasonhcc]

I got to shoot one, put 200 rounds through it - They're clean and crisp.
Both mods are SINGLE Action. It's not really what I had expected after seeing the video tho.

In the 3rd mode, the trigger reset is made SHORTER, that's it!

IMO the 3MR trigger is CA Legal.

Does anyone on CG own one yet?

[*Zombie Killer*]

I don't understand why the general idea of fully automatic is desirable. It doesn't make for a more accurate weapon or shooter, but rather decreases your chances of hitting the target. In my opinion, I see it as a weakness over semi-auto.

[saki302]

but rather increases your chances of hitting your target. In my opinion, I see it as a weakness over semi-auto.

Actually it DECREASES the chance of hitting your target. It's designed for suppressing fire- I.e. keeping the enemy's head down while your other guys try to flank him.
If you watch actual combat videos, most of the US troops are firing in semi auto. Single controlled shots = dead enemies.

And it's fun as heck. I need to visit my uncle in NC again sometime :D

-Dave

[HKRick]

Not worth it. I was involved in a shooting. During the investigation the Officer secured all weapons in the house. I had a Tac Trigger in my safe not attached to any weapons. They threatened to prosecute me for the device, (I was not charged with any wrong doing for the original incident). I was looking at 5 years for a piece of crap trigger device that sucked and wasn't even installed. I secured an Attorney @ $300/hr only to have him tell me that if charged I face 5 years but would likely only get probation, which would prevent me from owning guns. His advice, donate the guns to the department.... like I said, not worth it.

[Tincon]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=560_1393354909

[*Zombie Killer*]

Actually it DECREASES the chance of hitting your target. It's designed for suppressing fire- I.e. keeping the enemy's head down while your other guys try to flank him.
If you watch actual combat videos, most of the US troops are firing in semi auto. Single controlled shots = dead enemies.

And it's fun as heck. I need to visit my uncle in NC again sometime :D

-Dave

I had a typo there, not sure what I was thinking. Cover fire is also achieved, less frequently, with the use of semi auto fire. However, I agree that fully auto is affective for it's purpose. That's practically it's sole advantage, other than it being a unique hands on experience. It probably has more of a psychological impact on someone who's on the other side of that suppressed fire.

[Gutz]

Not worth it. I was involved in a shooting. During the investigation the Officer secured all weapons in the house. I had a Tac Trigger in my safe not attached to any weapons. They threatened to prosecute me for the device, (I was not charged with any wrong doing for the original incident). I was looking at 5 years for a piece of crap trigger device that sucked and wasn't even installed. I secured an Attorney @ $300/hr only to have him tell me that if charged I face 5 years but would likely only get probation, which would prevent me from owning guns. His advice, donate the guns to the department.... like I said, not worth it.

That's bull****. Thinking about sending the ATF a letter asking them about it...

[6114DAVE]

That's bull****. Thinking about sending the ATF a letter asking them about it...

If you're saying the story is BS ..then yes

[jaymz]

The ATF already said that the trigger is fine. It's CA that you're gonna have a problem with.

[Jimi Jah]

I can see buying one and burying it in a metal coffee can in the backyard.

Someday California is going to fall apart, that would be the day to un-earth it.

[bollero]

Arizona deposit box....

[SC_SD]

Just buy the Geissele SD-3G.

Proven fire control group from a reputable manufacturer at half the price of the Tac-Con.

Also, if you investigate the mechanics of how the "speed" is improved...you find that it is mostly a gimmick. Here is a description that mechanically explains it:

"Of note, the reset assistance of the 3rd mode is sufficient to fully clear disconnector engagement in the three lowers I've tried (Wilson Combat, Daniel Defense, & LWRC).

Thus, the forced reset is complete when the bolt reaches its rearward-most travel during cycling. However, rearward trigger force that persists during the bolt cycling will restore disconnector engagement for a normal reset. To take full advantage of the reset assistance, the operator must release trigger pull on the timescale of half of the bolt cycle, which is approximately 0.9ms (0.0009 sec) on my rifle.

As this is not physiologically possible, I believe this mechanic is the source of the steep learning curve for rapid fire. However, an already fast trigger finger can benefit from this, as it will slightly accelerate trigger finger let-off (the slowest part of firing).

A bump-firing stance would also be accelerated by this, with a loose grip on the rifle. However, I do not see this speeding up the average shooter without considerable practice. Of course, after considerable practice, the average shooter could likely become similarly fast on other trigger platforms as well"

Quote sourced from this video in the comments section:

HAvebGC33j4

[HKRick]

If you're saying the story is BS ..then yes

The story is 100% true. I had the ATF card that came with the device that said it was legal. LEO said not according to CA law. He was also trying to challenge the legality of my SKS and was suspicious of my Cobray PM-11 because the fire control rotates beyond Safe/Fire he thought it was select fire. He had his Armorer look at it and determine it was only Semi Auto. Long story short... if you think it's a gray area they see it as black, then they throw it all against the wall and see what sticks.

[e90bmw]

That just blows.

[tommyid1]

Get an ar gold.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[saki302]

The 'Tac-trigger' IS in fact one of those old banned multiburst trigger activators.

They were legal in the 90s. I used to have a 'tri-burst' one, which was also a POS. I gave it to a cop buddy of mine when they banned it- it's probably still floating around his PD somewhere if not in a dumpster. I'm guessing if the cops there tried it, it's in the dumpster :D

They ALL sucked, none worked as advertised.

-Dave

[mbell]

Here is a link to a video review of the mechanics of the Tac Con 3MR. It is a semi auto trigger. Not a bump fire device or trigger activator. Hope this helps clear up how this trigger works, what it does and what it does not do.
Thanks!
Mike

http://youtu.be/97lT9gNawYY

[Brandon04GT]

I still don't understand how it isn't PRACTICALLY full auto if it forces the reset on every cycle and you just maintain reward pressure on the trigger?

[mbell]

Rear pressure overrides the assisted reset altogether. This is shown in the video. In this case the disconnector re-engages the hammer spur and locks the trigger back! If you can relieve the trigger pressure then the front sear notch engages the trigger and locks the hammer until the trigger is pulled again.

[mbell]

One problem might be understanding what reset is. It is the engagement of the trigger and the trigger notch on the front of the hammer. The only way this can happen is if you let off the trigger.

[Brandon04GT]

mmmmmmmkay. I think I will just stick to my Geissele SSA haha

[singleTap]

SD3G is way better... POS tac"con" light strikes

[lhecker51]

I have read the comments here and disagree with this being illegal. I have been a gunsmith for over 25 years and read the new law. It is written so poorly that any trigger modification such as taking up free travel or lightening the pull would be against the law. These mods allow for a faster rate of fire. The design of this product is no different. This is another one of those gray area laws that are meant to move law abiding gun owners into the category of criminal.

even when one is clearly in the right, the DA will compel you to spend your treasure to defend yourself. Even if you win, you lose and they know it.

[greg916]

dont waste your time with this trigger. Your money is much better spent on a standard single stage with a refined pull like a cmc, timney, or geissele.

[lhecker51]

It's more than that. The reset is positive, forced by the hammer being cocked.

But still not illegal otherwise trigger jobs meant to lighten the trigger which inrease rate of fire would be illegal under this law.

[Tincon]

But still not illegal otherwise trigger jobs meant to lighten the trigger which inrease rate of fire would be illegal under this law.

Only if they do so by means of a device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

[Packy14]

Just buy the Geissele SD-3G.

Proven fire control group from a reputable manufacturer at half the price of the Tac-Con.

Also, if you investigate the mechanics of how the "speed" is improved...you find that it is mostly a gimmick. Here is a description that mechanically explains it:



Quote sourced from this video in the comments section:

HAvebGC33j4

Geissele for the win.

[12voltguy]

I have read the comments here and disagree with this being illegal. I have been a gunsmith for over 25 years and read the new law. It is written so poorly that any trigger modification such as taking up free travel or lightening the pull would be against the law. These mods allow for a faster rate of fire. The design of this product is no different. This is another one of those gray area laws that are meant to move law abiding gun owners into the category of criminal.

even when one is clearly in the right, the DA will compel you to spend your treasure to defend yourself. Even if you win, you lose and they know it.

so you agree not to buy this:confused:

[ferrisgeo]

Gun shops in the bay area are selling these. Would this not get them in trouble if these were not legal in california and would you also not be able to go after them personally for selling this to you if it was not legal.

[Librarian]

Gun shops in the bay area are selling these.

(1) Would this not get them in trouble if these were not legal in california and

(2) would you also not be able to go after them personally for selling this to you if it was not legal.

Yes to (1).

Don't know about (2).

[AmirGTS]

Gun shops in the bay area are selling these. Would this not get them in trouble if these were not legal in california and would you also not be able to go after them personally for selling this to you if it was not legal.

which stores?

[1911su16b870]

First off - not a lawyer nor DOJ BOF employee.

I have examined at the Tacfire trigger. Of interest is the third mode which allows the moving BCG to reset the hammer on the trigger sear. Does this increase the rate of fire? No.

I also own a Geissele Super Dynamic 3Gun-E Trigger. Does that trigger increase the rate of fire? No.

Can I run the Geissele and the Tacfire triggers very, very fast where someone who is not knowledgeable in firearms technology could misunderstand that the firearm is a fully automatic firearm? Yes.

Not everyone can run those triggers as shown in the videos. My friend who is also a very experienced shooter, was not able to get those triggers to run rapidly. Now with time and training, he can get there...but out of the box, No.

[sbo80]

Some were for sale last week at crossroads of the west gun show in del mar. legal or not, I'll spend my $500 on something else. Like an entire pistol.

[mikemi]

Not worth the potential legal entanglement.

Sent from my SGH-M919

[Rough Gear Review]

Just an FYI...Today I spoke with Bob from the California Department of Justice about the Tac-Con trigger. At 11:45am he told me it is perfectly legal. One pull of the trigger, one shot, equals semi-auto. He said there was nothing illegal about it. Funny he also told me he looks at Calguns and can't figure out where people get some of their information. I asked about getting the statement in writing and was of course told no, he said a few years ago the CA DOJ stopped doing that.

Anyone can email the DOJ and ask a question, it takes about 4 weeks but they will call you back and answer your questions.

So instead of getting legal advise from "experts" on Calguns I think everyone should just ask the DOJ. Maybe if enough people inquire they will put it in writing just to stop the questions.

So now I can go shoot my Tac-Con trigger without worry and have tons of fun doing it.

[Tincon]

Just an FYI...Today I spoke with Bob from the California Department of Justice about the Tac-Con trigger. At 11:45am he told me it is perfectly legal. One pull of the trigger, one shot, equals semi-auto. He said there was nothing illegal about it. Funny he also told me he looks at Calguns and can't figure out where people get some of their information. I asked about getting the statement in writing and was of course told no, he said a few years ago the CA DOJ stopped doing that.

Anyone can email the DOJ and ask a question, it takes about 4 weeks but they will call you back and answer your questions.

So instead of getting legal advise from "experts" on Calguns I think everyone should just ask the DOJ. Maybe if enough people inquire they will put it in writing just to stop the questions.

So now I can go shoot my Tac-Con trigger without worry and have tons of fun doing it.

Well gee, if BOB says it's "perfectly legal"...:facepalm:

[Rough Gear Review]

Well gee, if BOB says it's "perfectly legal"...:facepalm:

Yep, that's the kind of response I expected.

[Tincon]

Yep, that's the kind of response I expected.

So you were aware of how stupid your post was when you made it?

Questions:

Does "Bob" have authority to determine the legality of products or the meaning of the law?

Can "Bob" stop any of the 58 DAs in this state from prosecuting you?

Does "Bob" have a law degree? Any legal education at all?

Can the words of "Bob" over the phone be cited in court by your defense?

Does "Bob's" reasoning even take into account CA law regulating multi-burst trigger activators rather than just saying it isn't a machine gun because "one pull of the trigger, one shot, equals semi-auto?"

Answers:

No, probably not, No, and No.

Call DOJ 5 different times and you will probably get 5 different answers, none of them correct.

[Rough Gear Review]

So you were aware of how stupid your post was when you made it?

Really? Stupid? Wow. No I just thought I would try to encourage people here to ask the DOJ for themselves instead of getting their info from guys who have to put legal disclaimers on the bottom of their posts because they spew out so much disinformation based on their interpretation of CA laws.

[Tincon]

Really? Stupid? Wow. No I just thought I would try to encourage people here to ask the DOJ for themselves instead of getting their info from guys who have to put legal disclaimers on the bottom of their posts because they spew out so much disinformation based on their interpretation of CA laws.

Let me get this straight. You were worried about getting "disinformation," so you went to.... THE CA DOJ? You can't possibly be serious.

[Rough Gear Review]

Wow, everyone else, call the DOJ and ask for yourself. Don't get advise from jokers like this. I bet he has never even touched one of these triggers. Multiburst trigger device??? Yeah, you have never fired the Tac-Con.

[Tincon]

Wow, everyone else, call the DOJ and ask for yourself. Don't get advise from jokers like this. I bet he has never even touched one of these triggers. Multiburst trigger device??? Yeah, you have never fired the Tac-Con.

:facepalm:

[Librarian]

Just an FYI...Today I spoke with Bob from the California Department of Justice about the Tac-Con trigger. At 11:45am he told me it is perfectly legal. One pull of the trigger, one shot, equals semi-auto. He said there was nothing illegal about it. Funny he also told me he looks at Calguns and can't figure out where people get some of their information. I asked about getting the statement in writing and was of course told no, he said a few years ago the CA DOJ stopped doing that.

Anyone can email the DOJ and ask a question, it takes about 4 weeks but they will call you back and answer your questions.

So instead of getting legal advise from "experts" on Calguns I think everyone should just ask the DOJ. Maybe if enough people inquire they will put it in writing just to stop the questions.

So now I can go shoot my Tac-Con trigger without worry and have tons of fun doing it.

Ask yourself why they won't put it in writing.

If you get a written legal opinion from DOJ legal, you can take that to court in your defense.

'Some guy on the phone at DOJ' is no better authority than what you read here - and often worse.

[machrono]

Well, if Bob said its OK.......

[Untamed1972]

Well, if Bob said its OK.......

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/108/02/108-0223091723-bob.gif