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Loubot10
08-31-2013, 11:31 AM
Set up is a RIA Mil Spec with upgraded (wilson) trigger, beaver tail, hammer, and sear.

Also replaced the barel with a Barstow match grade drop in, barrel/bushing combo. Finally a Wilson spring (medium) and the blue cushion thingamajigger.

Shot great through a couple thousand rounds over a year and then it jammed with the slide back and an empty casing in the barrel (in battery?). Would'nt budge, so I secured the hammer and took it home.

This morning, here's what I found

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj612/Loubot10/44B04C2B-94C2-43C9-9BDE-E37FF6926689-252-000002B55CDA6D21_zps792e12a4.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj612/Loubot10/30F3CF5D-310E-405C-8622-37C6AC1D2B4A-252-000002B58DC2AA89_zps118800c0.jpg

Everything else looked fine so I put it back together using the stock barrel and cycled through some snap-caps. Smooth and ejecting fine.

Any thoughts?

Josh3239
08-31-2013, 12:09 PM
Whoa!?! Tried calling Barstow?

swifty
08-31-2013, 12:09 PM
Maybe leave the hammer in the toolbox?

Generally need to diagnose the problem before exerting extra force. Send the barrel back with your story, hope for a replacement.

Fjold
08-31-2013, 12:16 PM
Maybe leave the hammer in the toolbox?

Generally need to diagnose the problem before exerting extra force. Send the barrel back with your story, hope for a replacement.

I think that he meant the gun's hammer.

Loubot10
08-31-2013, 12:17 PM
Maybe leave the hammer in the toolbox?

Generally need to diagnose the problem before exerting extra force. Send the barrel back with your story, hope for a replacement.

No hammer involved but thanks for talking down to me.:D

Put the end on a cushion and applied minimum down force. It released, I took it apart.

Loubot10
08-31-2013, 12:20 PM
I think that he meant the gun's hammer.


Reading skill: Master

:notworthy:

I probably could have been more detailed in my description, but thanks for reading it right.

Gunsmith Dan
08-31-2013, 12:21 PM
Yes that is caused by the barrel lug slamming into the rear block before touching the rails on the frame.

The 1911 is designed to have the recoil force of the barrel to be absorbed at the end of it backward movement by resting on the frame. In your case the barrel is being allowed to travel to far backwards before traveling downward so the barrel lugs will slam into the block before the barrel rests on the frame (or in some cases never does rest on the frame).

The barrel lug is not made to absorb that much energy so over time either the link will shear, the barrel lugs shear off or both. The key in your pictures was seeing the lugs all peened over and the shearing of the lugs.

This problem is mostly caused by a barrel link that is to long but there are sometimes other causes.

Whenever fitting a new link, barrel or both you should alway insert the barrel and pin in the link with the slide stop. Pull the barrel all the way back until it stops, the barrel should be fully resting on the frame both sides and the barrel lug SHOULD NOT be touching the block (it will be very close, enough to slide a single hair in and out, but should not touch).


This would not be a barrel defect but a installation of incorrect link causing damage, not something covered by most manufacturers.

Hope that helps :D

swifty
08-31-2013, 12:28 PM
...so I secured the hammer and took it home.


I think that he meant the gun's hammer.

:D:D:D

And I was picturing the OP driving the slide home with the hammer he secured from the toolbox.

Thanks for the correction!

Loubot10
08-31-2013, 12:28 PM
Yes that is caused by the barrel lug slamming into the rear block before touching the rails on the frame.

The 1911 is designed to have the recoil force of the barrel to be absorbed at the end of it backward movement by resting on the frame. In your case the barrel is being allowed to travel to far backwards before traveling downward so the barrel lugs will slam into the block before the barrel rests on the frame (or in some cases never does rest on the frame).

The barrel lug is not made to absorb that much energy so over time either the link will shear, the barrel lubs shear off or both. The key in you pictures was seeing the lubs all peened over.

This problem is mostly caused by a barrel link that is to long but there are sometimes other causes.

Whenever fitting a new link, barrel or both you should alway insert the barrel and pin in the link with the slide stop. Pull the barrel all the way back until it stops, the barrel should be fully resting on the frame both sides and the barrel lug SHOULD NOT be touching the block.


This would not be a barrel defect but a installation of incorrect link causing damage, not something covered by most manufacturers.

Hope that helps :D

ABSOLUTELY!

The new barrel lug was just a hair longer than the stock set-up and just touched the block, but since it was fully locked up I let it pass.

My Gunsmith skill level: Dumbazz :rolleyes:

Hoagiem
08-31-2013, 3:28 PM
That was a serious timing issue. There are several steps to timing a 1911 and it is more than setting it in the frame. You should take a close look at the locking lugs on the barrel and in the slide, there is a good chance that your slide is damaged also, as in rounded corners on the locking lugs. Take a look at this link: http://www.m1911.org/testkit.htm, also take a good hard look at the frame impact surface, with the barrel repeatedly hitting it hard enough to shear the lugs there is likely some damage to the frame. It is supposed to contact that surface, that's why it is called the vertical impact surface. The barrel is not supposed to hit the the upper surface of the frame as a stop to it's downward motion when firing.

It is a common misconception to install a longer link to "tighten" the barrel fit to the slide when it is in battery. That is the worst way to tighten a loose fit, it screws with the timing and creates bigger problems as shown above. A drop in fit barrel is just that and even though it is a drop in fit the timing still needs to be checked.

"Match grade drop in" is an oxymoron.

subscriber
08-31-2013, 4:39 PM
See this thread on lower lug failure prevention: http://www.1911pro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1277

bigbob76
08-31-2013, 6:48 PM
"Match grade drop in" is an oxymoron.

I have zero experience building or repairing a 1911 but I was scratching my head when I read that in the original post. If I win the lottery and have time on my hands I would love to study the 1911. I love shooting my 1911s. I've seen quite a few 1911 shooters make themselves crazy tweaking a 1911 while not seeming to fully understand how the parts interact.

Hoagiem
08-31-2013, 9:23 PM
Get a set of the Kuhnhausen books, more information than most people will ever need. The Bar-sto barrel combo is called that because the barrel/bushing fit is within what they call match tolerances which is national match tolerances. That doesn't mean it will be a match fit to the slide though. The most realizable increase in accuracy will come from the fit in the barrel and bushing and bushing to slide. If the barrel fit is say 0.010" loose at the chamber, which is pretty sloppy the grouping is going to be in the 6" range at 50 yards. I know guys that can't shoot 6" groups from a ransom rest with a full length "Match Grade" 1911.

There is no standard for " match grade drop in". In my mind there is "drop in" and "gunsmith fit", you really need to research what you are getting. For what somebody would pay for a barrel like that they would be better off measuring the slide i.d and the barrel o.d. and ordering a barrel bushing to those dimensions from EGW and save a couple hundred bucks.

That is just my opinion.

I'm not knocking the op with reference to barrel, that's an expensive learning curve.

Gunsmith Dan
08-31-2013, 11:35 PM
The barrel link lug on a 1911 barrel link system should NEVER touch the block in the frame, while it needs to be close it should NEVER TOUCH at any time period.

John Browning was a genius weapons designer and if you look at all his weapon designs there is one common thing you notice ..... many components had dual duties so as to cut down on the number of parts and complexity of the design.

The original 1911 where made with high carbon steel , mostly drill rod, which in the early 1900's there was not a lot of steel alloys to choose from. Anyone who has worked with high carbon steel knows that it is very hard but is more brittle than more modern low carbon steel alloys.

That is why when you look at original designs you notice everything is a lot bigger and thicker than what you see in modern guns (for example the frame block, extractor, ejector etc.) that is because they had to be so as not to break to easily.

The original link design called for the barrel link lug to serve two purposes in the operation of the firearm.

(1) The main and obvious purpose was to attach to and hold one side of the link to the barrel.

(2) The second and what most do not know about is the barrel link lug serves as a safety device. The original 1911 would have links break a lot and was normal for the 1911 when it was shot frequently (mostly the ones being used in the military). If the link was attached directly to the barrel with no flat back like it does have if the link failed the barrel would continue its rearward motion. The barrel would only stop by either slamming into the bolt face or stripping a round off the magazine and stove piping.


The correct motion of the 1911 barrel is that it moves backward and downward via the link. Since the link moves freely the stress on the link is not that great until it stops going downward and continues backward. The barrel's downward motion is designed to be stopped by hitting the frame which in turn absorbs most of the energy from recoiling. The barrel being in a rearward and downward motion and tilting downward with whatever energy is left after striking the frame will go backward. That is the point that the link prevents backward motion using the LINK to prevent it and NOT by slamming into the block. The link can easily handle the stress by backward motion at that point since most of the energy was absorbed by the frame. In fact look at the frame where the back part of the barrel sits and you will notice that whole area is much thicker than the rest of the frame for that reason.

To respond to the comments about slide damage.... why would there be??? The barrel link lug would only be damaged in the unlocked position and the barrel, with the exception of the barrel bushing area, should have no contact with the slide at that point. A link that is to long would not damaged the slide or top of the barrel as both areas are very robust and can take the stress. A link that is to short would damage the lugs in the slide as the barrel would hit the edges of the lugs at the wrong spot and not go into the locked position.


So to recap the barrel link lug when the barrel is in the full down position should be VERY close to the frame block with the barrel touching and fully resting on both sides of the frame. If the lug is to far away the link is to short and if it is hitting the block the link is to long. There is other things that will cause the same issue but going by the damage in the pictures it is a classic case of link distance to long. While a lot of people will grind down the back of the barrel link lug to make sure it does not touch make ABSOLUTLY sure the gun is timing correctly, you do not want that back area to thin.

Hoagiem
09-01-2013, 8:02 AM
This is probably one of the oldest arguments in the theory of operation of the 1911.

If the lower lugs do not contact the vertical impact surface then the link is stopping its rearward movement, this causes the link to stretch and break. If the vertical impact surface is too far forward or a link installed that is too long the lower lugs will shear.

When a long link is improperly installed and the lower lugs are contacting the vertical impact surface too soon as in the above case the barrel may not link down sufficiently and cause the corners of the slide and barrel locking lugs to be sheared off. That's why there would be damage to the slide and barrel.

Look at the top of the barrel and the surface of the slide at the locking lugs, if there are striations then there is damage. Take a close look at the locking lugs, the corners should be sharp, not rounded over like the corners were sheared off.

A short link will not cause the barrel to hit the locking lugs, the barrel moves up into the slide based on the hood length. What a short link will cause is insufficient lockup and over time will shear the barrel locking lugs or the slide locking lugs or both. This will cause the slide to start its rearward movement before the bullet exits the barrel, which in the case of a 1911 is a bad thing. Or it will cause the lower lugs to bind on the slide stop pin and eventually break either one. I am guessing that the previous statement about when the slide starts to move rearward will create another discussion about another one of the misconceptions of the theory of operation of the 1911.

The lower lugs do serve two purposes, the first being argued over in this thread and the second to stop the forward motion of the slide. So for all the people out there that consistently drop the slide on a 1911 on an empty chamber stop and think about what is happening, the full force of the slide in motion is being stopped by the lower lugs and the slide stop pin. If that is hard to visualize or there are non believers out there, then lock the slide back and remove the slide stop pin and let the slide fly. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is not a good thing and over time will cause damage to the lower lugs. And an improperly fitted long link will move the contact surface lower on the barrel lugs and shear them also.

I'm still not clear as to what is meant by the frame being thicker in the area at the rear of the barrel.

So, to recap, a properly timed 1911 will contact the vertical impact surface. I guess some of the top barrel makers for the 1911 and their timing instructions and Kuhnhausen and all the other custom builders are all wrong?

If the 1911 doesn't need the vertical impact surface in the frame then go ahead and install a standard barrel in a frame cut for the Clark/Para ramp or the Wilson/Nowlin ramp and shoot it until the link breaks.

If that barrel or the pictures were sent to Bar-sto the only thing they will say was it was due to improper timing.

Look at the installation and timing procedures for a ramped barrel, I believe both of those have a vertical impact surface cut into the frame also.

Maybe the op would post pictures of the top of the barrel and the inside of the slide?

NewGuy1911
09-01-2013, 9:32 AM
[F]I'm very interested in the inner workings of the 1911; thanks for posting this question and many thanks for the responses. I'm probably one of those shooters that could not group 6" on a 50 yd target with a Les Baer 1.5" 1911.

I bought a used Kimber Super Match that just shot great for me. Some people at the range thought I was a ringer. Long story short, the pistol became a jam-o-matic and was repaired, with a reliability package. So hears the puzzle; the gunsmith said the 1911 Kimber had clocking problems and was "beating itself to death" ( wrong marks on the slide stop). I take the repaired 1911 back to the range, some time has passed, now this Super Match is reliable but does not group like before!!! Could it be Kimbers' put in a longer link instead of hard fitting the barrel??? [/FONT]

wpage
09-01-2013, 10:50 AM
[F]I'm very interested in the inner workings of the 1911; thanks for posting this question and many thanks for the responses. I'm probably one of those shooters that could not group 6" on a 50 yd target with a Les Baer 1.5" 1911.

I bought a used Kimber Super Match that just shot great for me. Some people at the range thought I was a ringer. Long story short, the pistol became a jam-o-matic and was repaired, with a reliability package. So hears the puzzle; the gunsmith said the 1911 Kimber had clocking problems and was "beating itself to death" ( wrong marks on the slide stop). I take the repaired 1911 back to the range, some time has passed, now this Super Match is reliable but does not group like before!!! Could it be Kimbers' put in a longer link instead of hard fitting the barrel??? [/FONT]
Could be... Why not check back with Kimber for a listing?:oji:

Hoagiem
09-01-2013, 5:42 PM
What was included in the reliability package? What did the gunsmith do to cure the "beating itself to death" situation?