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Hsteven916
06-30-2013, 5:27 PM
Do I have to bellor flare the 223 brass casing??... Is there a dies from Dillon ???

Dark Mod
06-30-2013, 5:35 PM
no need to flare the case.

Colt562
06-30-2013, 5:38 PM
no need to flare the case.

Agreed, no need to flare the case, just chamfer and deburr.

Especially with flat base bullets :facepalm:

JagerDog
06-30-2013, 5:43 PM
No such operation on bottleneck rifle cartridges. Do want to chamfer after trimming though.

Hsteven916
06-30-2013, 6:16 PM
Thanks!!

Divernhunter
06-30-2013, 11:57 PM
Newbie. Where are you located? Maybe someone can help walk you thru the steps. If you had the Lyman #49(or most other) reloading manual and read it you would have your answer. The manual will do much to make the reloading process easier IF you read it.

Germz
07-01-2013, 1:53 AM
Someone dropped the hammer on OP after only 5 posts? a new record.

Divernhunter
07-01-2013, 10:32 AM
Not dropped the hammer. Trying to help but no location. Also if he had read a manual he would have known that bottleneck rifle cases do not get belled/flared.
Too many people jump into reloading with no knowledge, not reading a manual and no location so someone can personally help them and answer the many questions they have.
PS You are a newbie also to the site. If you stay around long enough you will understand what I am saying also.

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 11:04 AM
Understandable question if the OP has only loaded straightwall pistol cartridges before.

That said, reading a good reloading manual will tell you everything you need to know.

jetman624
07-01-2013, 11:50 AM
I believe if you use the sizing die from dillon you also must use the crimp die from dillon, as their sizing die does flare the case a little bit.

I thought that would make it easier to load a flat base bullet-- is that not correct?

tiller
07-01-2013, 12:00 PM
I believe if you use the sizing die from dillon you also must use the crimp die from dillon, as their sizing die does flare the case a little bit.

I thought that would make it easier to load a flat base bullet-- is that not correct?

No sizing die will flare a case any brand or cartridge

jetman624
07-01-2013, 12:10 PM
Maybe flare is not the correct term... but I was pretty sure there was something specific to the dillon sizing die in regards to the neck of the case.

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 12:40 PM
Maybe flare is not the correct term... but I was pretty sure there was something specific to the dillon sizing die in regards to the neck of the case.

Nope, incorrect data. I use Dillon size dies for single stage work too and I almost never crimp any .223 ammo (or any bottleneck rifle case for that matter). The Dillon size die works exactly the same as any other mfgrs' full length ones do.

Additionally, the Dillon powder die does not flare the case either. It is only there so the case mouth can be used to operate the powder measure charge bar when the ram is raised, it does nothing to the case mouth unlike powder dies for pistol loading.

If you are loading flat base bullets you need to add a chamfer to the inside of the case mouth with a reamer or use a case trimmer that does this like a Gracey or Giraud. A major reason why I like boat tail bullets for all rifle cartridges whenever possible.

Bumslie
07-01-2013, 1:33 PM
I believe if you use the sizing die from dillon you also must use the crimp die from dillon, as their sizing die does flare the case a little bit.

I thought that would make it easier to load a flat base bullet-- is that not correct?

You're correct that you must use their crimp die with sizing die, but incorrect in assuming it is "flaring".

Their expander ball is one thousands bigger than a conventional die set, so you need to use their crimp die to properly hold the bullet in place. This is the same case with lee pacesetter die sets as well.

jetman624
07-01-2013, 2:02 PM
You're correct that you must use their crimp die with sizing die, but incorrect in assuming it is "flaring".

Their expander ball is one thousands bigger than a conventional die set, so you need to use their crimp die to properly hold the bullet in place. This is the same case with lee pacesetter die sets as well.

Does this expander ball make it any easier to load flat bottom bullets?

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 2:55 PM
Does this expander ball make it any easier to load flat bottom bullets?

No, expander balls do not create flare on a case nor do they provide a beveled lead in.

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 2:58 PM
You're correct that you must use their crimp die with sizing die, but incorrect in assuming it is "flaring".

Their expander ball is one thousands bigger than a conventional die set, so you need to use their crimp die to properly hold the bullet in place. This is the same case with lee pacesetter die sets as well.

I have not found that to be the case. The Dillon expander ball is .222 and this will provide a .002 interference fit with a .224 diameter bullet which is quite good enough for this task.

I have loaded umpteen thousands of .223 rounds using the Dillon size dies, both single stage and in a progressive and I have not applied crimp and had no setback or neck tension issues.

Bumslie
07-01-2013, 3:18 PM
I have not found that to be the case. The Dillon expander ball is .222 and this will provide a .002 interference fit with a .224 diameter bullet which is quite good enough for this task.

I have loaded umpteen thousands of .223 rounds using the Dillon size dies, both single stage and in a progressive and I have not applied crimp and had no setback or neck tension issues.

Ones I've come across have.

Eta. Is your set the one that included the crimp die? Because if it came with one, that would be the case

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 6:57 PM
Ones I've come across have.

Eta. Is your set the one that included the crimp die? Because if it came with one, that would be the case

Measure the expander ball, if it's .222 or under in diameter there is no need for a crimp. If it's over .222 by any amount whatsoever, chuck it into a drill and polish it with ultra fine emery cloth and then some flitz polishing compound until it's .222 or less and move on. An ideal final diameter for any expander ball is .2215" with a max diameter of .22199999999999......... ;)

An interference fit of .002 or more is all that is needed. If your expander ball does not do that, fix it.

Crimp is NOT a substitute for this, never has been, never will be and I get tired of hearing stories about needing to crimp from reloaders who don't understand this.

All 3 die sets come with a crimp die, this does NOT mean you HAVE to use it. If the Mfgr has not provided the "proper" diameter expander ball, then this needs to be addressed other than with crimp. Crimping is a bandaid solution for a problem that should not exist if you properly understand AND control your process AND use your measuring tools. End of story here.

Bumslie
07-01-2013, 7:07 PM
Measure the expander ball, if it's .222 or under in diameter there is no need for a crimp. If it's over .222 by any amount whatsoever, chuck it into a drill and polish it with ultra fine emery cloth and then some flitz polishing compound until it's .222 or less and move on. An ideal final diameter for any expander ball is .2215" with a max diameter of .22199999999999......... ;)

An interference fit of .002 or more is all that is needed. If your expander ball does not do that, fix it.

Crimp is NOT a substitute for this, never has been, never will be and I get tired of hearing stories about needing to crimp from reloaders who don't understand this.

All 3 die sets come with a crimp die, this does NOT mean you HAVE to use it. If the Mfgr has not provided the "proper" diameter expander ball, then this needs to be addressed other than with crimp. Crimping is a bandaid solution for a problem that should not exist if you properly understand AND control your process AND use your measuring tools. End of story here.

Whoa whoa whoa. I never once said you need to crimp. So calm down. Just offering insight on a question. My answer would have been the to sand it down too, which is what I did for the lee die set.

That being said, if they want to crimp, let them. Just the the pistol brass trimming question, just let them. There is more than one way to reload.

Colt562
07-01-2013, 7:09 PM
There is more than one way to reload.

This x10000000000

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 7:37 PM
Whoa whoa whoa. I never once said you need to crimp. So calm down. Just offering insight on a question. My answer would have been the to sand it down too, which is what I did for the lee die set.

That being said, if they want to crimp, let them. Just the the pistol brass trimming question, just let them. There is more than one way to reload.

Actually you did state the following

"You're correct that you must use their crimp die with sizing die"

There is no such thing as "must" for this specific situation, there is only a lack of understanding of the process that would make anyone think they "must" crimp at all OR use a "specific" mfgr's crimp die with a "specific" mfgr's size die for bottleneck rifle cartridge loading.

And there really is NOT more than one way to "reload" if you want to do it right. There may be multiple ways to achieve a "correct" end result in some processes, but they need to be ways that properly address the requirements of that process, not compensate for them with a bandaid fix.

The devil is in the details ;)

Bumslie
07-01-2013, 7:43 PM
If the expander ball is oversized, please explain how, without modifying the expander ball, he's going to get the bullet properly seated in place without any setback after he chambers the round.

jj805
07-01-2013, 8:06 PM
If the expander ball is oversized, please explain how, without modifying the expander ball, he's going to get the bullet properly seated in place without any setback after he chambers the round.

This ^. I had this issue at the VC reloading workshop yesterday. You could push the projectile into the case by simply turning the adjustment knob on the seating die. You could also tap the projectile down by merely bumping it against a hard surface, like a wooden bench. You have to crimp at that point. I have modified my expander ball since then, so it won't happen in the future, but the 1000 pieces of brass that I have that were sized before I modified my expander ball will need to be crimped.

CGT80
07-01-2013, 8:26 PM
You don't need to flare the case ASSUMING you are running Jwords and not boolits. I cast my own boolits for 30-06 and 30-30 and I do flare the case to prevent shaving lead from the boolit.

I loaded up some flat base jacketed bullets in 223 for my brother and it only required chamfering or deburring the inside of the case mouth.

I was actually wondering if there is a such thing as a Dillon powder funnel that will slightly flare the case mouth of a 30 cal rifle cartridge. Right now I use an RCBS neck expander die in the first station of the dillon 550. My brass is previously sized on the dillon and then tumbled to remove lube and swaged and trimmed off the press. Some people use cast and gas checked boolits in 223, and I assume they also flare the case.

For jacketed rifle bullets I never found the need.

I use just a slight crimp for rifle ammo. This is to knock the burr off the outside of the case mouth that is left after trimming. I would debur if I was shooting for tight groups, but my ammo works fine to minute of steel plate.

GeoffLinder
07-01-2013, 11:16 PM
This ^. I had this issue at the VC reloading workshop yesterday. You could push the projectile into the case by simply turning the adjustment knob on the seating die. You could also tap the projectile down by merely bumping it against a hard surface, like a wooden bench. You have to crimp at that point. I have modified my expander ball since then, so it won't happen in the future, but the 1000 pieces of brass that I have that were sized before I modified my expander ball will need to be crimped.

Crimp is not the fix, fixing the expander ball is the fix, good on you for recognizing that and implementing the proper fix :-)

You are better off resizing the 1000 brass that were done wrong first pass than using a crimp to compensate.

Germz
07-02-2013, 12:12 AM
Not dropped the hammer. Trying to help but no location. Also if he had read a manual he would have known that bottleneck rifle cases do not get belled/flared.
Too many people jump into reloading with no knowledge, not reading a manual and no location so someone can personally help them and answer the many questions they have.
PS You are a newbie also to the site. If you stay around long enough you will understand what I am saying also.

I don't see how the duration of my membership on Calguns correlates to my knowledge and understanding of reloading. If you're referring to the repetitive question threads (that are easily answered in one google search) that keep being posted I get that.

Germz
07-02-2013, 12:24 AM
You don't need to flare the case ASSUMING you are running Jwords and not boolits. I cast my own boolits for 30-06 and 30-30 and I do flare the case to prevent shaving lead from the boolit.

I loaded up some flat base jacketed bullets in 223 for my brother and it only required chamfering or deburring the inside of the case mouth.

I was actually wondering if there is a such thing as a Dillon powder funnel that will slightly flare the case mouth of a 30 cal rifle cartridge. Right now I use an RCBS neck expander die in the first station of the dillon 550. My brass is previously sized on the dillon and then tumbled to remove lube and swaged and trimmed off the press. Some people use cast and gas checked boolits in 223, and I assume they also flare the case.

For jacketed rifle bullets I never found the need.

I use just a slight crimp for rifle ammo. This is to knock the burr off the outside of the case mouth that is left after trimming. I would debur if I was shooting for tight groups, but my ammo works fine to minute of steel plate.

I've seen 22 cal molds that require gas checks but I haven't seen too many lead .223 loads. your velocity would have to be down in like the 2000 - 2200 range and I think thats still pushing it for a boolit.

Bumslie
07-02-2013, 5:50 AM
Crimp is not the fix, fixing the expander ball is the fix, good on you for recognizing that and implementing the proper fix :-)

You are better off resizing the 1000 brass that were done wrong first pass than using a crimp to compensate.

So what you're saying Is that dillon and lee are wrong for making their sets that way, and you know better than the industry leaders in reloading?

You're still not answering my question
If the expander ball is oversized, please explain how, without modifying the expander ball, he's going to get the bullet properly seated in place without any setback after he chambers the round.

The set is designed that way, so he has to crimp.

CGT80
07-02-2013, 8:17 AM
I've seen 22 cal molds that require gas checks but I haven't seen too many lead .223 loads. your velocity would have to be down in like the 2000 - 2200 range and I think thats still pushing it for a boolit.

I remember people reporting that 1950 fps was a good load that didn't lead. My jacketed 55 grain load is 2950 fps from an 18" barrel, so the cast guys are at 1,000 fps less. They say it is still enough to function the bolt when using 4895 powder at that velocity. My brother and I thought about trying it, but those are some really small boolits to have to lube and gas check, and 55 grain jacketed bullets are not really that expensive when at non political prices.

Divernhunter
07-02-2013, 12:49 PM
Bumslie---If the expander is too big IT needs fixed. Crimping is just a wrong fix for the problem.
Kind of like if your engine chucks a rod out the side of the block patching the block does not fix the (real) problem.

My Dillon dies do not have that problem and they are newer one if that matters.

Bumslie
07-02-2013, 1:09 PM
Bumslie---If the expander is too big IT needs fixed. Crimping is just a wrong fix for the problem.
Kind of like if your engine chucks a rod out the side of the block patching the block does not fix the (real) problem.

My Dillon dies do not have that problem and they are newer one if that matters.

Please do me a favor then and go buy a lee pace setter 223 kit. You'll see they designed it that way.

the led farmer
07-06-2013, 10:29 AM
Please do me a favor then and go buy a lee pace setter 223 kit. You'll see they designed it that way.

In Richard Lee's book Modern Reloading, 2nd Edition he address neck size for proper press fit of a bullet, HIS opinion (there are many others, open to debate, but this is his) is that a properly sized neck should .001 smaller than the diameter of the bullet (p. 26 and 46).

Taking this into consideration I measured all three of my Ez Expander/Decapper 's for .223 (broke a few decapping pins). Surprisingly enough they measured .223, which coincides with being .001 smaller than a .224 bullet. Since Lee wrote the book, and designed the Pacesetter dies/expander i have drawn the conclusion that he designed the Ez Expander/Decapper to be .001 smaller than the diameter to provide what he considers proper neck size for a preferred press fit of a bullet. If your Ez X is larger (or smaller) than this I would consider it to be a defect and request a new one of the proper diameter from Lee Precision. (Or resize yourself if its oversized)

So I am not sure what you mean when you say the dies are designed "that way"

Divernhunter
07-06-2013, 12:25 PM
^ +1 I do not need to buy anymore dies. I have better dies than lee. I have RCBS(2 sets) and Dillon. Been reloading too long and with too many different cartridges to know that if neck tension will not hold the bullet then the expander button is too big. Stop arguing and fix the problem and stop making excuses or band-aid fixes. It only shows your level of knowledge in reloading. Which is clearly lacking. OR continue to do it your way but do not try to tell people that is the correct way.
My last post on this thread.