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View Full Version : Help clarify the legality of a North American Arms Mini Revolver?


BigJ
12-21-2012, 12:20 PM
Hey guys, I went to order a NAA holster gripped 22lr today and the gun shop told me they are not California legal. He said that the barrel isn't long enough.

Did he mean that they're not on the Cal Roster and therefore he can't sell me one? Or, in other words, I can buy one here legally, but only via PPT?

Or is he right; are these actually illegal here all together?

Here's the revolver in question: http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/llr-hg.html

http://northamericanarms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/l/llr-hg-closed_3.jpg
NAA-22LLR-HG:
- 22 Long Rifle Mini-Revolver
- 1 & 5/8" Barrel
- Holster Grips
- 5-Shot Capacity

Thanks!

Squid
12-21-2012, 1:29 PM
I'm sure others will weight in, but the Single Action exemption from CA DJ list requires IIRC, 5+ shot cylinder and certain length barrel (3.5"?)

That is why is says "NA" on Ruger website for all their SA revolvers for "ca legal", and why those guns aren't listed on CA website under.....

STURM, Ruger and Co.


But the 'regular' North American mini guns are sold at Target Masters near you and are on list.


PS-now you got me wondering if you could buy just that holster grip AND install in on a regular NAA mini, AND be legal in CA.

bill_k_lopez
12-21-2012, 1:38 PM
I'm pretty sure Turner's sells these....I have one, but purchased it many (many, many) years ago.

BigJ
12-21-2012, 1:43 PM
This is strange. The thing is when I called to order it from them, I gave them the Gallery of Guns number directly and they placed the order with GoG. It was their rep from GoG who called them back, saying its a no go in California.

And he was clear that it was a barrel length issue.

Hmmm...

(PS: No Turners any where close. I'm in NorCal)

BigJ
12-21-2012, 1:58 PM
Thanks for the tip on Target Masters Squid. Just called and they don't have any holster gripped ones, but they do have the standard gripped ones. I put one on hold. Looks like the holster grip can be bought online for around $50.

The guy at TM wasn't aware of any legal issues related to the holster grip, but he also said he has tried to order them before with no success.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone can clear this up for me. I don't want to put that grip on there and all the sudden make it illegal somehow.

Capt.Dunsel
12-21-2012, 2:00 PM
They are legal in Ca. They are on the roster ( until 2014).

Its the grip that makes it Illegal.

BigJ
12-21-2012, 2:04 PM
So if I add the grip, I've created an illegal firearm?

Can you tell me what about the grip makes it illegal? Link to the penal code by chance?

Capt.Dunsel
12-21-2012, 2:10 PM
The pistol your looking at with the grip is not on the roster , hence illegal ( except ppt of course). If you really want one try to find the grip and install it. I have yet to find someone to sell the grip to me here in cali , it makes it too concealable they tell me.
But thats Ca for ya.

Capt.Dunsel
12-21-2012, 2:11 PM
The pistol your looking at with the grip is not on the roster , hence illegal ( except ppt of course). If you really want one try to find the grip and install it. I have yet to find someone to sell the grip to me here in cali , it makes it too concealable they tell me.
But thats Ca for ya.

BigJ
12-21-2012, 2:18 PM
Ok I think I see:

-its not single shot exempt because the barrel length doesn't meet minimum requirements
-its not on the Cal Roster: http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

Therefore, an FFL cannot sell it to me new.

But I cannot find anything that says assembling the grip to my legally purchased firearm makes that firearm illegal. What am I missing?

Capt.Dunsel
12-21-2012, 2:35 PM
Ok I think I see:

-its not single shot exempt because the barrel length doesn't meet minimum requirements
-its not on the Cal Roster: http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp

Therefore, an FFL cannot sell it to me new.

But I cannot find anything that says assembling the grip to my legally purchased firearm makes that firearm illegal. What am I missing?

The pistol is on the roster , sans the grip you want. No need for SSE

Getting someone to sell you the grip , if you live in Ca becomes the problem , I have tried to purchase one from many places and they will/won't sell it to a Cali . As with manyother products for firearms many places won't sell to us he on the westcoast , that is the only problem I have found with putting on the "Black Widow" grip.

winnre
12-21-2012, 2:35 PM
The list has no Single Action revolvers on it, last time I checked.

Because the grip could be considered a holster, like the model that fits into a belt buckle, it may be an NFA issue needing federal registration.

BigJ
12-21-2012, 2:41 PM
The pistol is on the roster , sans the grip you want. No need for SSE

Getting someone to sell you the grip , if you live in Ca becomes the problem , I have tried to purchase one from many places and they will/won't sell it to a Cali . As with manyother products for firearms many places won't sell to us he on the westcoast , that is the only problem I have found with putting on the "Black Widow" grip.Interesting. I just ordered the grip from OpticsPlanet.com: http://www.opticsplanet.com/north-american-arms-holster-grips-for-22-long-rifle-frame-ghg-lc.html

Paid too much for it, but free shipping so I guess it balances out.

Either way, they just took my money and processed my order, so unless someone stops it downstream for some reason I expect to see the grip in the next week or two (allowing for the holiday).

The list has no Single Action revolvers on it, last time I checked.There are some, including this NAA without the grips.

Because the grip could be considered a holster, like the model that fits into a belt buckle, it may be an NFA issue needing federal registration.Whoa. First time I've heard that mentioned. NAA doesn't say anything about that on their site, GoG doesn't either. Was at a Cabela's in AZ a while back and handled one, and they didn't mention it. Could have sold it to me on the spot if I didn't live in California...

Capt.Dunsel
12-21-2012, 2:44 PM
The list has no Single Action revolvers on it, last time I checked.

Because the grip could be considered a holster, like the model that fits into a belt buckle, it may be an NFA issue needing federal registration.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=california%20roster%20of%20handguns%20certified% 20for%20sale&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcertguns.doj.ca.gov%2F&ei=S_PUULiOI6a7igKWw4HgCQ&usg=AFQjCNEjNShdWZJBQcDFF_kMq-4wxnQzzA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE

This is where they are listed , North American Arms , funny only 2 listings for that manufacturing company.

And yes the grip is listed same as the beltbuckle

Squid
12-21-2012, 2:47 PM
CA don't like folding stocks on some rifles.

I think the NAA minis need to pass the drop test. Maybe CA JD chokes on whether to drop with grip folded or not, or both.

It wouldn't surprise me if CA totally freaked out at having to do two sets of "passed drop test" for same gun's 'file', just because some fat *** had to waddle over to some other office.

I've done work inside many Govt offices, I know.

CA has some stuff about 'disguising' a gun.

I'm not seeing any particular extra feature, seems for of a carry-comfort, but I'm no expert.


Ask "BWeise" when he surfaces. I think he is actual gun lawyer.

G-forceJunkie
12-21-2012, 4:41 PM
The only NAA's on the CA list are the 22lr and 22mag versions with 1 1/8 barrels and the standard wood grips. That is legal for any dealer to sell in Ca. You can add whatever grips you want to after you buy it.

Ervb44
12-21-2012, 7:53 PM
These are def legal in CA.I own one and know several shops that carry them.

JeremyS
12-21-2012, 9:04 PM
WOW there's a lot of incorrect crap in this thread :laugh: ...way too much to even get into, so I'm just going to say how it is and not explain it...

There are only two NAA mini revolvers on the roster. If you want to buy an NAA revolver from an FFL, it has to be one of those. There is nothing "illegal" about any of the other ones, and there's nothing illegal about that swiveling belt clip holster guard thing OR the belt buckle holster. If you buy one of the NAA's on the roster, you can order and put the holster clippy thing on there if you want and that's 100% legal. NAA just did not submit the model that comes with that from the factory for Roster testing so you can't buy it like that.

Fine, I'll get into it a little more:

"belt buckle guns" are illegal in CA (and a federally regulated under NFA), just like pen guns and cane guns are illegal in CA. What that means is a gun that IS a belt buckle. A holster that is a belt buckle that your gun clips into is not a belt buckle gun. As long as the gun cannot fire from the belt buckle holster, you're cool.

Why is the firing thing important? Because holsters that conceal the shape of the firearm AND allow the gun to be fired from within are subject to NFA control. It basically puts them into the "wallet gun" category. This little swiveling clippy thing isn't that. One, because it really doesn't conceal the gun and two, because you cannot fire the gun with the holster in its carry position.


One should never confuse legality with being on the Roster. The Roster in no way determines what is or is not legal to possess in CA, it only determines what handguns are approved for sale by a retailer to a civilian and absolutely nothing else at all. ALL of the NAA revolvers would be absolutely legal to own in CA and, unless they make a threaded barrel version of one of their pistols that I'm unaware of, all of those would be as well.

ifilef
12-21-2012, 9:44 PM
The only NAA's on the CA list are the 22lr and 22mag versions with 1 1/8 barrels and the standard wood grips. That is legal for any dealer to sell in Ca. You can add whatever grips you want to after you buy it.

Right, both versions only in 1.125". Longer barreled ones are not on the Roster. So you can't buy one new with the 1 and 5/8" barrel from a dealer. They will never be in stock unless NAA seeks and gets approval from the CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms.

As to the folding grip, I can't say with any certitude they are legal or not, but my 'hunch' would be they are legal. The issue that might arise, or come closest, might be whether such a grip would constitute a 'wallet' gun holster.

I really like mine in .22WMR. However, it is the one handgun that I own most likely to result in a ND.

Be sure to read the manual fellas, and don't mess up-make sure the hammer is fully down on the empty slot located between any of the cartridge chambers. And, in cleaning, especially after firing some rounds-you may find those slots have some deposits of carbon crud in them-so make sure they are free of deposits so that hammer will sit squarely on slots.

The two photos in the manual depicting orientation are very important. Practice, practice with the hammer half-cock, full-cock, and FULLY DOWN with empty cylinder, and make sure you know what you're doing before loading all five chambers.

To repeat - According to the manual, the hammer must be fully down on the slot so that the cylinder is 'locked' between chambers (Note: mine has a slight amount of 'play' even when 'locked').

Arisaka
12-22-2012, 5:38 AM
JeremyS has it. It's like the MP5 briefcase gun. It's ok to put an MP5 on a briefcase, but if you can fire the MP5 while its in there, now you have an NFA situation (unless your MP5 is already an MG, then I believe you may be gtg.

JeremyS
12-22-2012, 7:55 AM
As to the folding grip, I can't say with any certitude they are legal or not, but my 'hunch' would be they are legal. The issue that might arise, or come closest, might be such a grip would constitute a 'wallet' gun holster.

It would not, for the two reasons I mentioned in my post above yours. At least federally. Because it's only concealing the trigger guard and absolutely no other part of the gun, I don't see CA having an issue with it either even if the state has stricter laws. I don't specifically recall that now but you could look in the penal code to be sure.


However, it is the one handgun that I own most likely to result in a ND.
.....According to the manual, the hammer must be fully down on the slot so that the cylinder is 'locked' between chambers (Note: mine has a slight amount of 'play' even when 'locked').

I've had one for a few years now. Note that the manual specifically says there is supposed to be a little play in the "locked" position. This allows you to wiggle the cylinder and feel and hear it clicking and know that it's in the locked position vs. not in the locked position (it feels different). Once you get used to putting the cylinder in the frame, you will no longer need to lower the hammer into the lock notches. You can simply insert the cylinder with the hammer down and have the hammer in a lock notch right off the bat. This is certainly a safer method, although I never had a problem the other way either.

Aside from manually lowering the hammer with live rounds in the gun, with the intent of putting the hammer in a lock notch between rounds, it's a safe gun. It's single action with a fairly powerful mainspring (meaning the hammer takes intentional effort to cock) and then it has a short trigger pull, but a stiff enough trigger pull. I pocket carry mine in a jeans 5th pocket fairly often, and it's awesome for that. Only the handle sticks out of a standard sized 5th pocket :cool:

Oh. It could be easy enough to shoot yourself in your off hand. It's really a one-handed gun. The thing is so darn short that if you grip it with two hands you could put a finger in front of the muzzle and that would be less than ideal.

ifilef
12-22-2012, 8:58 AM
JeremyS-

Thanks for your comments.

What page of the manual refers to the 'play' as being normal?

The manual that I downloaded about a year ago does not mention there should be 'play'. Perhaps the manual has been updated, or I missed the reference.

In any event, I only mentioned the 'play' because I observed it-it is not of major concern to me re safe storing/handling.

I am going to be empirically testing the alternative method of inserting the cylinder with hammer down on an empty cylinder.

However, will likely follow the manual because that is the recommended procedure, and, additionally, the firing pin does protrude with hammer down and one risks 'brushing' it against a live rimfire round upon insertion.

Perhaps there is a specific way to orient the cylinder upon insertion so that it directly aligns with a slot-I think that is what you are saying. If that is the case, then, with hammer down, you must be certain to do it that way every time and I don't think that it may be worth the risk, unless you handle the gun frequently.

p.s. I did try it a few times with empty cylinder, but the cylinder face showed a quarter to three position of the cartridges-not good.

In fact, that firing pin does protrude and the cylinder does not enter the frame freely! Any suggestions?

Update: For the present, I am going to stick to the manual. Half-cock for inserting and removing the cylinder, unless you can convince me otherwise. In addition to other reasons, inserting the cylinder with the hammer down risks bending or damaging the firing pin, IMO, or it brushing against a live round.

JeremyS
12-22-2012, 2:39 PM
Perhaps there is a specific way to orient the cylinder upon insertion so that it directly aligns with a slot-I think that is what you are saying. ..... In fact, that firing pin does protrude and the cylinder does not enter the frame freely! Any suggestions?

...In addition to other reasons, inserting the cylinder with the hammer down risks bending or damaging the firing pin, IMO, or it brushing against a live round.

Yeah so the firing pin is the whole blade front of the hammer itself. It isn't something you could bend or damage unless you tried pounding the cylinder in there. Also, brushing against a live round will not set it off. Rimfires actually require quite a firm strike -- a harder hit than centerfire rounds require. You would have to align the round on the hammer and HIT the cylinder with force to even possibly cause this. Brushing, scraping, bumping is not going to cause it to fire.

All that said, the way I insert the cylinder does not cause any rubbing on the hammer. You roll the cylinder in there and everything aligns nicely and smoothly. Top goes in first, with one of the lock notches heading directly towards the hammer (firing pin) and it will slide onto the hammer. Then I roll the bottom in until the cylinder is centered. Then the pin goes in.

sigstroker
12-22-2012, 3:25 PM
"belt buckle guns" are illegal in CA (and a federally regulated under NFA), just like pen guns and cane guns are illegal in CA. What that means is a gun that IS a belt buckle. A holster that is a belt buckle that your gun clips into is not a belt buckle gun. As long as the gun cannot fire from the belt buckle holster, you're cool.

Why is the firing thing important? Because holsters that conceal the shape of the firearm AND allow the gun to be fired from within are subject to NFA control. It basically puts them into the "wallet gun" category. This little swiveling clippy thing isn't that. One, because it really doesn't conceal the gun and two, because you cannot fire the gun with the holster in its carry position.


So why are non-NFA pen guns like the American Derringer illegal in CA? You have to "bend" it to shoot it.

JeremyS
12-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Because CA specifically bans pen guns. Also bans nunchucks and brass knuckles and cane swords and automatic knives with a blade length of more than 2" and magazines with a capacity over 10 rounds and removable mags on semi-auto rifles that have "features" and threaded barrels on semi-auto pistols and suppressors and SBR's and tint darker than 75% on your car's front windows and hundreds of other things that are perfectly legally federally.


CAL. PEN. CODE § 12020 : California Code - Section 12020

(a)Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

(1)Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any fléchette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol [EDIT: wow that's vague!!!], any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

(2)Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

(3)Carries concealed upon his or her person any explosive substance, other than fixed ammunition.

(4)Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

Some nice bathroom reading here: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12020

ifilef
12-23-2012, 1:35 PM
JeremyS-

Thanks for your input on alternative way of inserting the cylinder. Perhaps with more practice I might get it right, and easily. But at this time I'm finding the recommended way in the manual easier for me. Again, thanks...

ke6guj
12-23-2012, 1:41 PM
So why are non-NFA pen guns like the American Derringer illegal in CA? You have to "bend" it to shoot it.
why do you think a derringer would be illegal (except for those chambered in .410) in CA? What do you mean by "bend" it.




any unconventional pistol [EDIT: wow that's vague!!!]

not sure why you think that is vague, it has a codified definition,
17270. As used in this part, an "unconventional pistol" means a
firearm with both of the following characteristics:
(a) It does not have a rifled bore.
(b) It has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or
has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

zcktomcat
12-23-2012, 10:08 PM
http://northamericanarms.com/accessories/l-accessories/l-grips/ghg-lc.html
The grip is $38 straight from the NAA website. The 22lr and 22 mag are listed on the roster. Buy the gun and attach the grip. Wallet holsters need to make it look something that isn't a gun.