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Dannicus
07-17-2012, 4:40 PM
There was a guy at my local range the other day using very "stylized" technique. I don't know if the guy just likes to play operator; for all I know he could be a SEAL. I must say that he nearly got kicked out because he walked up between trap fields and started shooting at trees downrange while there was a guy working in the traphouse. That and he came off as a dick when everyone on the 15 yard line was ready to go cold and he insisted on going through two more magazines while we all waited.

Anyways, I had some questions about his pistol handling that I didn't get a chance to ask him about. When he would pull his gun in towards his body, he'd put his left shoulder forward and turn the pistol left. He was smooth and purposeful, but I could see no functional reason to turn the pistol over like that. For one, if you had to fire like that, wouldn't it increase the chance of taking a casing to the face? Also, it seems like it'd be more difficult to operate the controls and you'd have to turn it completely the other way to reload.

Anyone familiar with this style? Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.

MB38
07-17-2012, 4:44 PM
I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly... was he firing from retention (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtDMT-yWt1M)?

neouser
07-17-2012, 5:54 PM
Center Axis Relock?

Paul Castle's CAR system (http://www.sabretactical.com/html/center_axis_relock__car_.html)

SilverTauron
07-17-2012, 6:01 PM
People with Navy SEAL skillsets don't need to show off at Joe's Gun Range. They have government-paid for shooting facilities which surpass nearly everything the private sector has to offer.

My guess is that this guy saw one too many tactical DVDs.

random name
07-17-2012, 6:07 PM
Center Axis was my first thought.

Dannicus
07-17-2012, 6:43 PM
Just watched that center axis clip. That's pretty extreme, but his technique was not like that. This guy would rotate his pistol counter clockwise pretty drastically. If he were to look down, he'd be looking at the back of his hand; pistol tilted to like 10 o'clock. I'll try to find something like it on youtube, I guess.

SarcoBlaster
07-17-2012, 6:50 PM
Was this him?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv96/jesper1992/funny%20sjizzel%20dizzel/dont-worry-sir-im-from-the-internet.jpg

wilit
07-17-2012, 6:56 PM
People with Navy SEAL skillsets don't need to show off at Joe's Gun Range. They have government-paid for shooting facilities which surpass nearly everything the private sector has to offer.

My guess is that this guy saw one too many tactical DVDs.

+1. I've known a couple of real life ***-kickers and they generally don't like to draw attention to themselves. If someone tells you they're special forces or a SEAL within 15 minutes of talking to them, you can bet with 99.999% certainty that they are not.

saki302
07-17-2012, 7:03 PM
Rotated to check if the gun was empty/jammed?

Only thing I can think of.

-Dave

ZombieTactics
07-17-2012, 7:06 PM
I'm just another civilian, but I am related to some certifiable baddasses. They don't draw attention to themselves, and they certainly don't do anything highly stylized.

Dannicus
07-17-2012, 7:32 PM
Figures I can't find any examples of what he was doing on YouTube. I didn't think about how if he was some sort of pro, he'd probably have access to a private range.

And I guess the whole thing with shooting trees at the trap range was a kind of "look at me" move. He even took up two lanes on the 15 yard so he could alternate shooting a bunch of paper plates.

neouser
07-17-2012, 7:33 PM
Just watched that center axis clip. That's pretty extreme, but his technique was not like that. This guy would rotate his pistol counter clockwise pretty drastically. If he were to look down, he'd be looking at the back of his hand; pistol tilted to like 10 o'clock. I'll try to find something like it on youtube, I guess.

Actually, if you watch the CAR demonstration, he gets his hand to almost a 10 o'clock position in some of the shots. Someone I know took the class before and they said that they teach that tilt because it uses the muscles on the back of the wrist to control the weapon instead of the muscles on the top of the wrist. No idea if that's true or not...

Dannicus
07-17-2012, 7:49 PM
Here we go. It looked like this. Except with the pistol pointed down range.

http://www.teamspartan.com/images/2-dayAdvancedTacticalPistolCourse.jpg

JTROKS
07-17-2012, 8:06 PM
Someone wanting to show off their newly acquired tacticool moves. Doing the right moves in shooting drills doesn't require being an @SS#ole keeping the majority waiting and shooting at things not intended to be shot.

zfields
07-17-2012, 8:21 PM
Here we go. It looked like this. Except with the pistol pointed down range.

http://www.teamspartan.com/images/2-dayAdvancedTacticalPistolCourse.jpg

Isnt that called zul position? At least thats what I have seen it referred as. Or Scan and Assess.

smokingloon
07-17-2012, 8:25 PM
Here we go. It looked like this. Except with the pistol pointed down range.

http://www.teamspartan.com/images/2-dayAdvancedTacticalPistolCourse.jpg

That is called the SUL position

Position SUL
By: Tom Perroni
According to Max Joseph & Alan Brosnan the inventors of Position “SUL” it is the
one “ready position” that ensures team safety & handgun retention, even in CQB!
The name Sul is taken from the Portuguese language. It simply means “south”
since that’s where the muzzle is directed in this position.
Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic
"gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed
for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the
slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the
SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident
problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think
most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and
that is where the confusion came in.
The position has taken off among the law enforcement and military training
community. After they understand the concept, it's hard for them to disagree with
it, especially since it affects safety - predominately their own!
I teach the position because in any firearms class I teach we have a 360° “HOT”
range. All too often trainers and students get marred down in the square range
mentality, or the idea that threats only comes from in front of them. Now more
than ever we need to train our officers, operators and students that threats come
from 360°.
“SUL” is an alternative to the ready or low ready position, perhaps better suited to
crowded environments. With correct technique, a weapon held in this position is
less likely to violate Safety Rule #2 by pointing at people unintentionally. The
properly applied SUL also prevents the muzzle from pointing at the shooter’s feet
and legs when scanning 360°. It is essential that the following checkpoints are
strictly followed:
1. The support hand palm should be flat against the solar plexus, with fingers
extended and parallel to the ground. The support hand thumb is pointed towards
the shooter’s chin. (Elevation of the support hand may vary but most shooters
find that they are able to maintain correct hand position without undo stress on
the wrists when the hand is held about naval level.)
2. The strong hand maintains the grip on the handgun. You must also keep the
trigger finger of the trigger and on the slide.3. The muzzle of the weapon is pointed directly at the ground between the
shooter’s feet. The slide/barrel of the handgun is held against the back of the
knuckles of the support hand. Care must be taken to ensure that the muzzle
does not point outward to the front or to the side of the shooter. The muzzle
MUST be straight down.
4. The strong hand thumb is extended towards the support hand thumb so that
both thumb tips are touching.
5. Elbows should be relaxed against the shooter’s sides.
Should a threat requiring the use of the handgun appear, simply push the
handgun out away from the body allowing the hands to pivot at the thumbs as the
two hands come together in a firing grip. Trigger finger is straight until the sights
are on the target. With practice this becomes extremely smooth as we press the
handgun towards the threat.
To return to the SUL position, pivot at the thumbs as the direction of motion is
reversed.
When scanning 360° in the SUL position, it is inevitable that the weapon’s
muzzle will point at the shooter’s feet if the feet remain stationary. To keep this
from occurring, it is necessary for the shooter to step while turning, rather than
simply turning at the torso.
Muzzle discipline is of the highest importance on the range or once you have
finished the fight so that you can move around other officers, operators or good
guys without jeopardizing their safety but still maintaining your combat mindset.
I hope that explains this fantastic retention position. I would love to talk more
about Position “SUL” but this is all the room I have. If you want to learn more
come to class and I will teach you!
Stay Safe & Shoot Straight!
Remember "Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option".
I would like to thank the following People who contributed to this article or that I quoted:
Max Joseph, Alan Brosnan, Gun’s & Weapons for Law Enforcement.

http://ccjatraining.com/articles/PositionSUL.pdf


This is the high compressed ready position

http://a.usacarry.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/RRRSG3-300x225.jpg

readysetgo
07-17-2012, 8:30 PM
Something like this... (starts @ 3:30)
6M418NiUESo

Maybe?
This might make since if he was say, setting up for the reload but not actually executing it. Other than that, dunno. :confused:
By the way anybody watching this show GunTalk TV on Pursuit (608 on DirecTV)? I'm digging it, the episode I linked was really good, I think Spaulding is spot on.

Edit: actually now that I looked at it again, that was a malfunction drill, don't think it would match up to what you described.

mase1b
07-17-2012, 8:32 PM
Based on that pic, my best guess is that what you saw was him trying to simulate a draw from a holster/concealment. The guy in this pic is either partway through his drawing motion (count 2 for anyone who's been to Front Sight's courses), or halfway back to his holster after completing his firing drill.

Since I would imagine that you would have noticed your mall ninja buddy going to and from his holster, I can only assume that maybe he was attempting to practice that motion? In any case, it seems he proved himself to be a huge dooooosh, so I wouldn't go around imitating any of his moves.

Dannicus
07-17-2012, 9:06 PM
Thanks for the info on that Sul position, smokingloon. That pretty much explains it. Although he came off as a "huge doosh", I was still interested in what was up with how he was shooting. The technique doesn't make him a douche, it was his range etiquette.

scglock
07-17-2012, 9:44 PM
This guy sounds like a tool.. I've never seen anyone do that tacticool crap at the range.. Not even LEO.. Sounds like a dbag with no respect for shooters around him and zero range etiquette

jlbflyboy172
07-17-2012, 11:12 PM
Went to an Israeli tactical handgun class a few weeks ago and the way they train, you carry your weapon without a bullet in the chamber. When you draw from the holster you quickly bring the gun up in front of your face with the back of your hand facing upward (sort of like described above) and with your left hand thumb and forefinger, with the thumb on top grab the slide of the gun and rack it abruptly and then extend your shooting hand to the target and fire. Could have been something like along those lines that he had seen demonstrated and was trying to imitate. Or maybe he was at that class. There were a couple weekend warriors in the class that I could see them doing something like what was described.

FNH5-7
07-18-2012, 12:21 AM
Was it Mexican rambo?

vSQoUCVmIf8

Never been a fan of shooting from the hip,
Feels like a waste of ammo.

-------------------------------------------
or was it this fashionable tacticool operator?

ilbkZtzcasM

Hope he was laying down suppressing fire.......

Why does he readjust so dramatically?

Lead Waster
07-18-2012, 11:34 AM
Sounds like a tacti-fool with no respect for other people.