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View Full Version : Oh ATF i am so glad my money goes to you guys


fighterpilot562
03-05-2012, 4:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sWiZ8BizI&feature=related

i would also like to see how they converted the airsoft gun into a real gun. and the agent couldnt even put the mag in.

*this is old btw*

Kodemonkey
03-05-2012, 4:17 PM
That may be old, but I haven't seen it before. What a freaking waste of my tax money.

Gio
03-05-2012, 5:18 PM
:facepalm: What will they think of next?

Jeepergeo
03-05-2012, 5:34 PM
I'm gonna disagree on this one. Perhaps it should not have been ATF, maybe it should have been Customs or Commerce instead. But bottom line is that these guys imported airsoft guns that don't meet safety standards due to the missing orange tip. Without the orange tip, kids and others that own these things could easily be mistaken by LEOs as armed and dangerous, and shot, or maybe even accidently shot by someone protecting their home or property. It simply is not worth the chance.

axel4488
03-05-2012, 5:36 PM
This is what happens when stupid leads the stupid.

.45JHP
03-05-2012, 6:04 PM
Here's a follow up to that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPx_kr44r9M&feature=related

chillincody
03-05-2012, 6:19 PM
LMAO WOW !!! ATF you are a joke it can be retro fitted to fire real ammo but to see the report fill out this form and wait severals years which means ATF is lieing out there butts :)

Barabas
03-06-2012, 7:15 AM
Yeah, it can be retrofitted to fire one round, just like a block of aluminum can be retrofitted. ATF doesn't make a distinction between a functional firearm that can be reused after firing one round and something that will blow your hands off if a round is somehow jerry-rigged to go off inside the gun shaped object. Remember, this is the same agency that said a shoestring is a machine gun.

fighterpilot562
03-06-2012, 7:24 AM
Instead of bothering with airsoft guns, maybe they should go to AZ and ask a gun store owner to allow straw purchases so they can follow those guns back to Mexico and see where they go, but don't really follow those guns and allow said guns to go unchecked, and they should name it after a car movie.... oh wait

r3dn3ck
03-06-2012, 8:52 AM
and they should cover it all up after a federal officer gets murdered with one of the guns, yeah that'd be farking awesome wouldn't it.

torquefliteterror
03-06-2012, 10:21 AM
It actually might have been possible. I remember when this first happened , I did some searching and found some threads on the airsoft forums that verified that some of the early aluminum Ar's were 1:1 scale and could accept a real upper assembly. the internals could be gutted and in place could go the m16 trigger pack. it was kind of like the early 80% lowers that had the pocket milled out before ATF changed their minds and said they were now considered firearms. I think I recall someone saying this guy's order was also 1:1 . I wonder if anyone has filed a FOIA request, would be interesting to see what the made the ATF act the way they did.

Cuda440
03-06-2012, 10:49 AM
I'm gonna disagree on this one. Perhaps it should not have been ATF, maybe it should have been Customs or Commerce instead. But bottom line is that these guys imported airsoft guns that don't meet safety standards due to the missing orange tip. Without the orange tip, kids and others that own these things could easily be mistaken by LEOs as armed and dangerous, and shot, or maybe even accidently shot by someone protecting their home or property. It simply is not worth the chance.

Try this experiment: take a toy gun with an orange tip, and point it at a cop. Or better yet- take a bright yellow garden hose sprayer and point it at a cop. You might get shot, regardless of the color. The officer will protect himself first, and ask questions when the danger is gone.

BTW, an modern electric airsoft gun is 100% impossible to "convert" without replacing the entire upper, and lower. (not really converting anything)

A modern gas blowback airsoft gun is also nearly impossible to convert- again it would need a complete upper reciever swap, and the trigger group is completely wrong- the hammer strikes an air valve at the back of the mag and the magwell is different.

If you're capable of the machine work necessary, you could just build off a 80% lower easier than converting the airsoft gun.

incredablehefey
03-06-2012, 10:53 AM
i will just leave this here.

The line that reads, "...never assume, unless its in favor of officer safety" means to me that you should always assume that every toy has a gun hiding inside.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/429550_10150654584444771_178160899770_8918765_1670 965652_n.jpg

Jeepergeo
03-06-2012, 2:20 PM
Try this experiment: take a toy gun with an orange tip, and point it at a cop. Or better yet- take a bright yellow garden hose sprayer and point it at a cop. You might get shot, regardless of the color. The officer will protect himself first, and ask questions when the danger is gone.

BTW, an modern electric airsoft gun is 100% impossible to "convert" without replacing the entire upper, and lower. (not really converting anything)

A modern gas blowback airsoft gun is also nearly impossible to convert- again it would need a complete upper reciever swap, and the trigger group is completely wrong- the hammer strikes an air valve at the back of the mag and the magwell is different.

If you're capable of the machine work necessary, you could just build off a 80% lower easier than converting the airsoft gun.

Fortunately, LEOs miss their targets with over 70% of rounds fired. Not that I'd want to experiment with the 30% that hit their targets...

I'm ok with the orange tips on toy guns as they are more likely to be spotted than a non orange tip, so to me, it is a small price to pay. Small price, small increase in safety, even trade.

Spiggy
03-06-2012, 2:43 PM
Try this experiment: take a toy gun with an orange tip, and point it at a cop. Or better yet- take a bright yellow garden hose sprayer and point it at a cop. You might get shot, regardless of the color. The officer will protect himself first, and ask questions when the danger is gone.

BTW, an modern electric airsoft gun is 100% impossible to "convert" without replacing the entire upper, and lower. (not really converting anything)

A modern gas blowback airsoft gun is also nearly impossible to convert- again it would need a complete upper reciever swap, and the trigger group is completely wrong- the hammer strikes an air valve at the back of the mag and the magwell is different.

If you're capable of the machine work necessary, you could just build off a 80% lower easier than converting the airsoft gun.

This is incredibly untrue, especially with the many guns on the market that use real-spec receiver assemblies. Namely the stamped steel guns with fun-switch holes drilled into them or certain 100% spec receivers that have compatible fire control group pin assemblies. All someone needs is the simple FCG section of any design to build a firearm.

Most guns people are used to seeing are the plastic clear things they sell on the toy section of Fry's. They are not the primary concern. The models coming out of real factories with manufacturers that know EXACTLY how to manufacture a real gun are the main concern. Few America-based responsible manufacturers are even held under ITAR.

Cuda440
03-06-2012, 4:29 PM
This is incredibly untrue, especially with the many guns on the market that use real-spec receiver assemblies. Namely the stamped steel guns with fun-switch holes drilled into them or certain 100% spec receivers that have compatible fire control group pin assemblies. All someone needs is the simple FCG section of any design to build a firearm.

Most guns people are used to seeing are the plastic clear things they sell on the toy section of Fry's. They are not the primary concern. The models coming out of real factories with manufacturers that know EXACTLY how to manufacture a real gun are the main concern. Few America-based responsible manufacturers are even held under ITAR.


The ATF siezed WE GBBR M4s. Do you have a WE M4 sitting in front of you? I do. Do you have a background in machine work? I do.

Like I said, It would be easier to build an 80% lower than to modify an airsoft lower. You can not just drop in a FA FCG and go rock-n-roll.

BTW- there is not ONE modern airsoft gun that uses a mil-spec reciever. The Inokatsu below is the absolute most realistic GBB airsoft M4 made, and as you can plainly see- it's far from mil-spec.

What are the legal issues regarding GBB's and the ATF?

There are no legal issues concerning these Airsoft guns, just a bunch of bureaucratic @#$$%^ and ATF agents without a clue. You might have heard the news lately about the Custom's seizure of 30 "Machineguns" in a Tacoma port last week. Truth is they are actually WE M4 GBB airsoft guns. This topic has been beaten to death lately so I'm not going into much detail here. The important thing to realize is that while GBB airsoft guns may LOOK real they most certainly ARE NOT REAL. The following pics compare a real Colt M4 to various airsoft GBB replicas. Note the differences in each, but also the similarities as well.
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/ino_vs_real/26.jpg
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/ino_vs_real/27.jpg
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/M4COMPARE/3.jpg
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/M4COMPARE/29.jpg
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/WAWEM4/39.jpg
http://www.intrudershop.com/mmc/aug/WAWEM4/40.jpg
If you're observant you'd see that the WE is the LEAST REALISTIC of the GBB's compared to the WA and Inokatsu versions. Did you notice the hammer is too small and in the complete wrong location to strike a firing pin - Yet these are the ones being investigated? Yeah that makes a lot of sense...

SouperMan
03-06-2012, 5:40 PM
The ATF siezed WE GBBR M4s. Do you have a WE M4 sitting in front of you? I do. Do you have a background in machine work? I do.

Like I said, It would be easier to build an 80% lower than to modify an airsoft lower. You can not just drop in a FA FCG and go rock-n-roll.

BTW- there is not ONE modern airsoft gun that uses a mil-spec reciever. The Inokatsu below is the absolute most realistic GBB airsoft M4 made, and as you can plainly see- it's far from mil-spec.

Wow. Thanks for sharing the comparison photos!

Spiggy
03-06-2012, 9:08 PM
Wow. Thanks for sharing the comparison photos!

Those pictures are from a popular Hong Kong airsoft distributor. Not his own.

The ATF siezed WE GBBR M4s. Do you have a WE M4 sitting in front of you? I do. Do you have a background in machine work? I do.

Like I said, It would be easier to build an 80% lower than to modify an airsoft lower. You can not just drop in a FA FCG and go rock-n-roll.

BTW- there is not ONE modern airsoft gun that uses a mil-spec reciever. The Inokatsu below is the absolute most realistic GBB airsoft M4 made, and as you can plainly see- it's far from mil-spec.

As a matter of fact, I do. I'm well aware of the drop-in trigger housing designs frequented by WE-Tech's engineers. It makes for a stable and easy to manufacture engine. The ATF question is not whether the gun can readily accept a FCG, but if it can be readily MODIFIED. Considering the various importation headaches given to the manufacturers, I would be concerned of the legal ramifications as well. If a housewares designer can build an entire firearms industry on his ability to manufacture. Any "toy gun" manufacturer can too.

This does not solely affect the AR-15 pattern rifles on the market. Should any action be capable of function even striking close to or even chambering a single round would be a death knell for the legality of the product.

wayneinFL
03-06-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm gonna disagree on this one. Perhaps it should not have been ATF, maybe it should have been Customs or Commerce instead. But bottom line is that these guys imported airsoft guns that don't meet safety standards due to the missing orange tip. Without the orange tip, kids and others that own these things could easily be mistaken by LEOs as armed and dangerous, and shot, or maybe even accidently shot by someone protecting their home or property. It simply is not worth the chance.

If someone wants to point something that looks like a firearm at a cop, who cares? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

fighterpilot562
03-07-2012, 6:33 AM
If someone wants to point something that looks like a firearm at a cop, who cares? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

agreed. why would you point a realistic looking gun at a cop? even orange tip, he will still shoot you, hell if i was a cop i'd shoot you

Cuda440
03-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Those pictures are from a popular Hong Kong airsoft distributor. Not his own.



As a matter of fact, I do. I'm well aware of the drop-in trigger housing designs frequented by WE-Tech's engineers. It makes for a stable and easy to manufacture engine. The ATF question is not whether the gun can readily accept a FCG, but if it can be readily MODIFIED. Considering the various importation headaches given to the manufacturers, I would be concerned of the legal ramifications as well. If a housewares designer can build an entire firearms industry on his ability to manufacture. Any "toy gun" manufacturer can too.

This does not solely affect the AR-15 pattern rifles on the market. Should any action be capable of function even striking close to or even chambering a single round would be a death knell for the legality of the product.

Apparently, you like to argue pointless arguments, any your sigline fits you nicely.

I'll go ahead and quote myself here:
A modern gas blowback airsoft gun is also nearly impossible to convert- again it would need a complete upper reciever swap, and the trigger group is completely wrong- the hammer strikes an air valve at the back of the mag and the magwell is different.

If you're capable of the machine work necessary, you could just build off a 80% lower easier than converting the airsoft gun.

Now please explain whats false about it?

You would need to relpace nearly every part of the airsoft gun with real gun parts or custom made and modified parts to make it a functional firearm. If the airsoft lower would even accept a real upper, it would be pretty much the only airsoft part left in the gun, and it would need to be modified to work.

That's why I said its nearly impossible to convert You would be manufacturing a completely new weapon, not converting anything.

If you're an experienced machinist, you can make a gun out of nearly anything- if you "convert" a piece of railroad iron into a functional lower, should we outlaw railroad iron?

Like I said, it would be easier and faster to start with an $80 80% receiver than a $400 airsoft gun.

Decoligny
03-07-2012, 11:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sWiZ8BizI&feature=related

i would also like to see how they converted the airsoft gun into a real gun. and the agent couldnt even put the mag in.

*this is old btw*

I think the process goes something like this.

1. Totally disassemble the Airsoft gun.
2. Pick up the Airsoft lower, throw Airsoft lower in trash and replace it with a full auto M-16 lower.
3. Pick up the Airsoft upper, throw Airsoft upper in trash and replace it with an M-16 upper.
4. Repeat this process with all of the Airsoft parts.

Result: Airsoft gun converted into a fully automatic M-16. :rolleyes:

The ATF agent is out of his mind.

Spiggy
03-07-2012, 10:11 PM
I'm bailing out of this thread before I get myself in trouble. Clearly there's more going on that I can't openly speculate

Cuda, if you want to discuss this, feel free to PM me

FNH5-7
03-07-2012, 10:17 PM
What a waste of taxpayers cash.

uxo2
03-08-2012, 8:26 AM
And your surprised