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MadMex
01-26-2007, 7:52 PM
Why use this platform for a tack driver? No dis intended. Is it kind of like Mt. Everest, ie, “because I can”? Help me understand. Can't get my mind wrapped around spending the extra $ for such accuracy in 45 acp. I’m content with fist sized double taps.
Thanks in advance.

bobfried
01-26-2007, 8:14 PM
Not sure what you mean by much more money.

My HK's cost as much as my TRP and anything else as accurate will be as expensive. Maybe you wanted to say why spend money on accurate pistols at all?

For defensive uses within 7 yards your right, fist sized double taps is more than what you'll need. It'll suffice out to 25 yards.

But I don't just shoot guns for their practical purpose, I shoot them for the pure pleasure of doing so. In the semi-auto world of handguns, there's nothing that can match the trigger feel and slide to frame fit of a 1911. I have shot many different types of handguns and nothing feels quite as good as a properly done 1911. I can double tap into a fist size hole with many a pistol, using a 1911 will only help a bit more. But because I like the 1911 I'll pick it above all others.

It's the same reason I buy Lexus and BMW's. Whilst I do own Toyota's, Honda's and Mazda's; if you ask me which I'll pick to drive the former two is my preference. Why buy a fast car? Why buy an expensive car? Why buy a car at all? A donkey and wagon will get the job done.

Guns = Cars

Both decision are irrational, financially irresponsible and utterly defenseless in the face of common sense.

CalNRA
01-26-2007, 8:23 PM
Why use this platform for a tack driver? No dis intended. Is it kind of like Mt. Everest, ie, “because I can”? Help me understand. Can't get my mind wrapped around spending the extra $ for such accuracy in 45 acp. I’m content with fist sized double taps.
Thanks in advance.

why not?

what do you shoot? why do you what you shoot? a 800 dollar Springfield can often out shoot all the Sigs and USPs out there, you have been looking at the wrong pile of 1911s I'm afraid. Or are you relying on the old anecdote of "well, those old slab sides are pain in the rear and my Sig Sauer is much better".

koiloco
01-26-2007, 9:28 PM
.... In the semi-auto world of handguns, there's nothing that can match the trigger feel and slide to frame fit of a 1911. I have shot many different types of handguns and nothing feels quite as good as a properly done 1911. ...



I think that's an unfair and over statement regarding trigger and slide to frame fit for 1911 in comparison to other auto handguns.
A good example will be CZ 75 TS, the trigger on this handgun is not only as good but better than many production 1911's. It's really on the par with my Wilson Combat in regard to trigger and accuracy (disregard the difference is caliber .40 vs .45)
Another example will be Sig X5, one of the best trigger and most accurate 9mm I've shot to date.
My last example will be S&W 952 in 9mm, unbelievable.

All these are high price pistols thus explaining their quality. I paid a lot more for my wilson combat 1911 compared to the fore-mentioned guns, but did not see any big differrence. I own all of them except for the Sig X5 which I only had a chance to shoot about 50 rounds.

So Bobfried, I respectfully beg to differ your opinion.

slick_711
01-26-2007, 9:45 PM
I think that's an unfair and over statement regarding trigger and slide to frame fit for 1911 in comparison to other auto handguns.
A good example will be CZ 75 TS, the trigger on this handgun is not only as good but better than many production 1911's. It's really on the par with my Wilson Combat in regard to trigger and accuracy (disregard the difference is caliber .40 vs .45)
Another example will be Sig X5, one of the best trigger and most accurate 9mm I've shot to date.
My last example will be S&W 952 in 9mm, unbelievable.

All these are high price pistols thus explaining their quality. I paid a lot more for my wilson combat 1911 compared to the fore-mentioned guns, but did not see any big differrence. I own all of them except for the Sig X5 which I only had a chance to shoot about 50 rounds.

So Bobfried, I respectfully beg to differ your opinion.

The X-Five was supposed to be Sig's hybrid combining Sig 226 traits with the traits of a competition single action 1911... Want to make the 1911 crew's argument for them?

Edit: Come to think of it, while not necessarily based on the 1911, go look at a S&W 952 and try to honestly tell me the 952 was not heavily influenced by ol' JMB's 1911.

bwiese
01-26-2007, 10:42 PM
If I want to shoot 45ACP with pinpoint precision, I use a revolver - an S&W 625.

Loads about as quickly, too, with full-moon clips.

koiloco
01-26-2007, 11:08 PM
Edit: Come to think of it, while not necessarily based on the 1911, go look at a S&W 952 and try to honestly tell me the 952 was not heavily influenced by ol' JMB's 1911.

don't all auto handgun operate on the same principle? one can always argue that most hand guns share some similarities.

I am no gunsmith but I too recognize similarity but regardless of similar designs, suggesting that 1911 has the best SA trigger and slide to frame fit compared to all other handguns just seems a little overstated.

NwG
01-27-2007, 12:19 AM
don't all auto handgun operate on the same principle? Nope one can always argue that most hand guns share some similarities.

I am no gunsmith but I too recognize similarity but regardless of similar designs, suggesting that 1911 has the best SA trigger and slide to frame fit compared to all other handguns just seems a little overstated.

Maybe not in the slide to frame fit area.. (A question that can never be answered.. Far too may guns out there, each one different)

Bet, the trigger pull of a 1911 is second to none in a handgun.. A stright pull of a few millimeters that when done right can NOT be beat.. IMO.. IMO the key is in the stright pull...

DrjonesUSA
01-27-2007, 12:19 PM
Why use this platform for a tack driver? No dis intended. Is it kind of like Mt. Everest, ie, “because I can”? Help me understand. Can't get my mind wrapped around spending the extra $ for such accuracy in 45 acp. I’m content with fist sized double taps.
Thanks in advance.


Clearly you've never shot a 1911.

The answer to your question lies in the trigger of a 1911 pistol.

A superb trigger is the single greatest contributor to accuracy on a firearm.

Jeff Cooper wrote quite a bit about this, and said that he'd much rather have a mediocre rifle with a superb trigger than the other way around.

madjack956
01-27-2007, 1:06 PM
Dr.Jones is right on... a good trigger will make you a shining star. I have a Tikka T3 Tactical with a trigger to die for...(no pun intended) :)

koiloco
01-27-2007, 1:11 PM
Maybe not in the slide to frame fit area.. (A question that can never be answered.. Far too may guns out there, each one different)

Bet, the trigger pull of a 1911 is second to none in a handgun.. A stright pull of a few millimeters that when done right can NOT be beat.. IMO.. IMO the key is in the stright pull...

Now, this is a more reasonable statement :)

I totally agree that 1911 SA trigger is ONE of the best, but triggers on others non 1911 handguns such as the ones mentioned earlier are clearly in the same arena.

M. Sage
01-27-2007, 1:36 PM
I always thought people built race 1911s because there is so much aftermarket support for the pistol...

The only 1911 I've shot is un-modified, and it's already a good tack driver. It's VERY easy to shoot the center out of targets at 15 yards.

Black Majik
01-27-2007, 4:13 PM
I always thought people built race 1911s because there is so much aftermarket support for the pistol...

The only 1911 I've shot is un-modified, and it's already a good tack driver. It's VERY easy to shoot the center out of targets at 15 yards.

I think it's a combination of aftermarket support and the platform itself. The 1911 trigger has short take up and reset. In my opinion, no other autoloader matches a well tuned 1911's trigger.

MadMex
01-27-2007, 7:13 PM
I think it's a combination of aftermarket support and the platform itself. The 1911 trigger has short take up and reset. In my opinion, no other autoloader matches a well tuned 1911's trigger.
Black Majik,
Your explanation makes sense and is most credible. Thanks for avoiding accusations, hostility, insinuations, etc.

Follow up Q for everyone. If money was no object, what semi-auto handgun platform would you select for a tack driver?

Jon
01-27-2007, 9:17 PM
For me, it would have to be the 1911 (at this point). You can go from run-of-the-mill to exotic-OMFG builds. You can spend as little or as much money as you see fit.

There are so many 'smiths, parts and services available for the platform, that it's hard to ignore.


ETA: It really does come down to the ol', "Buy what you shoot best!"

koiloco
01-27-2007, 9:18 PM
Black Majik,
Your explanation makes sense and is most credible. Thanks for avoiding accusations, hostility, insinuations, etc.

Follow up Q for everyone. If money was no object, what semi-auto handgun platform would you select for a tack driver?

wilson combat 1911 super grade or CZ 75 TS custom shop.

Money wise, CZ 75 TS will only be about half of what you'll pay for a wilson combat 1911 super grade but it is not a 1911 platform. Performance wise, both will be very comparable. If $ is not a problem , then get both. I did and do not regret it a bit.

Some shooters like Les Baer 1911 also. Never own one and never will so can't give any input on the brand.

I did shoot some Ed brown and night hawk before deciding to go with Wilson Combat. I personally won't buy them.

Jon
01-28-2007, 1:20 AM
umm... newbie on terms here... what exactly is a "tack driver"

Basically, a firearm that can shoot the lights out. . . :D

TMC
01-28-2007, 10:12 AM
Concerning triggers, if there were a better trigger than the 1911 the competition world would be using it but the vast majority use a 1911. My SV open gun has a 1.25lb trigger and on a good day I can shoot .09 splits (that's less than 1/10th of a second between two shots) and its due to the trigger. Its very short pull and reset allow fast shots. In comparision the best slits I can do with a Glock trigger is a .15, doesn't sound like much but its over 50% slower. So there is something to be said for triggers when shooting fast. A very short pull light trigger allows you to break the shot without upsetting the sight picture and that's all there is to accurate shooting. Sounds simple

As far as accuracy I'm a firm believer in the now politically incorrect saying "its the Indian not the arrow". Most guns no matter what design will out shoot most shooters. Meaning most people cannot shoot a handgun to its potential. Good triggers and sights help take some of the stuff we screw up as we are pressing the trigger but if you put most guns an a Ransom Rest they will shoot far better groups than someone shooting the same gun off a bench. Have seen increadibly fast and some very accurate shooting with Glocks, revolvers, Sigs, H&K's and S&W autos. Its practice.

As for slide to frame fit and such on guns with slide mounted sights its not as critical as one would think. When a shot is fired the torque of the bullet going down the bore reduces the tolerances to zero ever time. It does make some difference with frame mounded optics.

Is the extra money worth it is completly up to you. Do you shoot it better? Do you care? Most high end guns will shoot better than the low end but few people will be able to tell. That statement is not from me but from most of the magazine articles on high end guns. High end guns do look better, nicer finish, closer fit parts, crips movement of the controls and we cannot forget the snob factor that goes with owning a Wilson Super Grade or what ever they call it now.

DRM6000
01-28-2007, 11:03 AM
maybe i'm off topic here, but what parts would you use to make a "tack driver" 1911? which trigger parts, barrel bushing and whatever else.

this thread is making want to work on mine.

M. Sage
01-28-2007, 11:12 AM
umm... newbie on terms here... what exactly is a "tack driver"

It's confusing cause nobody uses tacks to hang their targets anymore. :p

If you imagine a target hung with tacks, then "tack driver" makes a bit more sense.

TMC
01-28-2007, 1:52 PM
maybe i'm off topic here, but what parts would you use to make a "tack driver" 1911? which trigger parts, barrel bushing and whatever else.

this thread is making want to work on mine.

There aren't any drop-in parts to get really good triggers although Cylinder & Slide markets drop-in 2.5lb trigger kits but you still need the right combination of main spring, sear spring and some careful polishing to get it there. You will find fire control sets with a hammer, sear, disconnector from many folks but they will still need some work to get a nice light trigger that won't "follow". Many people can get a sub 2lb trigger but doing it right so it will last 50K+ and not drop the hammer if you slam the thing closed requires the right tools, know how and patience.

My 1.25lb trigger uses Cylinder and Slide parts but I also have the SV Tri-Glide sets in other guns that are very good.

Gunsmith-fit barrels, barrel links, over-sized bushings, triggers, and springs are easy to find, try Brownells, Nowlin, Wilson, Ed Brown, Les Bear, STI, SV Infinity, Briley.

If you're not sure have a smith do it, you don't want you gun going full auto the first time you try you're new 2lb trigger or your gun locking up because you don't have the barrel clearenced right. Fitting a barrel takes some special tools but you could probally do a bushing with some files and emory cloth if you go slow.

DrjonesUSA
01-28-2007, 3:28 PM
If you're not sure have a smith do it, you don't want you gun going full auto the first time you try you're new 2lb trigger or your gun locking up because you don't have the barrel clearenced right. Fitting a barrel takes some special tools but you could probally do a bushing with some files and emory cloth if you go slow.


No offense to anyone, but if you need to ask what goes into making an accurate 1911, you certainly should NOT be working on it yourself.

I know a good amount about 1911s and I also know that I definitely do not have the skills required to work on one as far as installing sears, barrels, etc.

Bako
01-28-2007, 9:45 PM
Well, in stage competition you'll see quite a bit of a difference between the 1911 folks and the wheel gun folks. It's why they have their own class.

Fatcat
01-28-2007, 11:56 PM
"Well, in stage competition you'll see quite a bit of a difference between the 1911 folks and the wheel gun folks. It's why they have their own class."

Ever see Jerry Michlek shoot?

I agree with previous posters have said, for most average shooters the 1911 trigger helps them shoot better.

guns_and_labs
01-29-2007, 1:50 PM
The X-Five was supposed to be Sig's hybrid combining Sig 226 traits with the traits of a competition single action 1911... Want to make the 1911 crew's argument for them?

Edit: Come to think of it, while not necessarily based on the 1911, go look at a S&W 952 and try to honestly tell me the 952 was not heavily influenced by ol' JMB's 1911.
I have the X-Five, and a comparable 1911 (in 9mm). The Sig is great, but the trigger is not the same as a 1911's. For one thing, it's got a huge takeup, and not as crisp a break. Fine accuracy, though, probably better than the 1911.

Bako
01-29-2007, 8:08 PM
"Well, in stage competition you'll see quite a bit of a difference between the 1911 folks and the wheel gun folks. It's why they have their own class."

Ever see Jerry Michlek shoot?

I agree with previous posters have said, for most average shooters the 1911 trigger helps them shoot better.

I took my family to one of those old west cowboy fairs where everyone dresses up and acts the part. I was amazed at how fast some of them could shoot. However, like the majority in this thread I gather the consensus leans toward the average shooter and not guys like Jerry Michlek.

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 8:11 PM
LAPD SWAT: 1911s
FBI HRT: 1911s
Delta Force: 1911s
Marine MEU(SOC): 1911s
Various champion practical shooters: 1911s

Newbie like me: uses what the people in the know use

Exiledviking
01-30-2007, 3:42 PM
Best trigger I have ever felt....

Smith & Wesson PC952.


For the record...I have several nice 1911s(Wilson CQB & SA TRP Operator) and I have played with a few of the higher-end 1911s. I had a Les Baer TRS...I REALLY miss that gun!!!

koiloco
01-30-2007, 3:50 PM
Best trigger I have have ever felt....

Smith & Wesson PC952.


For the record...I have several nice 1911s and I have played with a few of the higher-end 1911s.

Amen to that :)

MadMex
02-01-2007, 7:47 PM
Are they inherently more accurate or do they beg for their potential to be exploited through mods?

TMC
02-01-2007, 8:13 PM
Are they inherently more accurate or do they beg for their potential to be exploited through mods?

If you're referring to 1911's I believe it is the guns design coupled with about 100 years of development buy hundreds if not thousands different smiths.

The most accurate gun is going to be the one with a fixed barrel, so inherently its not the most accurate. You can get a 1911 to shoot about an 1" at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest with the right parts and tuning.

DrjonesUSA
02-02-2007, 12:05 AM
Are they inherently more accurate or do they beg for their potential to be exploited through mods?



Earlier most of us agreed that the single greatest contributing factor to accuracy is the 1911's exceptional trigger.

A mediocre firearm with an excellent trigger is likely going to be more accurate than a finer firearm with a crappy trigger.