30 Round Magazine - a No-No at the range?

[Dion]

I currently take my pre-ban center fire guns that hold over ten rounds, but they are slightly inconspicuous. I'm wondering if I were to come accross a 30 round magazine, would I get in trouble? How can anybody know if the mag was pre-ban or not?Anybody have any problems with this? Yay or nay, I don't mind - but I'd rather know first before even attempting. This is more of a curiousity thing than anything - I'm fine with 10 round magazines.

FWIW, I'm in San Jose, Ca. Thanks in advance. :cool2:

[liketoshoot]

if you owned the mag before the ban, then no problem, if you "find" one now then yes there is an issue

[AvyDriver]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe hi caps prior to the ban don't say for law enforcement use only. A good indicator.


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[DaveInOroValley]

I have often wondered the same thing. I have a few that were pre ban and haven't tried to use the 30 rd mags to avoid any hassle at the range. I guess the best thing to do is just ask the range master?

[evidens83]

If you "come across them" you wont be in trouble. Now if you use them in a BB AR then you can be...

Featureless : GTG
BB: 10rnd max

[Baconator]

if you owned the mag before the ban, then no problem, if you "find" one now then yes there is an issue

What is the issue? Tell me the PC where it says it is unlawful to find or otherwise acquire, other than manufacturing new high cap mags? Otherwise stop spreading FUD and talking out your ***.

[Baconator]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe hi caps prior to the ban don't say for law enforcement use only. A good indicator.


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It doesn't matter what it says. It could say "Manufactured March 6, 2011" and there isn't anything that could be done about it. You can repair old magazines with new magazine parts, besides possession of high cap mags is not a crime. Stop spreading FUD.

[CSACANNONEER]

It doesn't matter what it says. It could say "Manufactured March 6, 2011" and there isn't anything that could be done about it. You can repair old magazines with new magazine parts, besides possession of high cap mags is not a crime. Stop spreading FUD.

I'm thinking of stamping some mag bodies "Manufactured 1-1-2035" or "Manufactured the day hell froze over" just to do it.

[Cokebottle]

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe hi caps prior to the ban don't say for law enforcement use only. A good indicator.
That was in reference to the Federal ban, which began in 1994 and ended in 2004.
The California ban was put in place in January 2000.

There is an important distinction, and the term "pre-ban" is legally meaningless in California today.

The Federal ban did not prohibit the transfer, possession, or use of high-capacity magazines, even after the ban. It merely prohibited the manufacture of new magazines for civilian use. That is why the mag bodies were stamped "LE/Military Use Only".

With the sunset of the Federal AW ban, those mag bodies immediately became 100% legal for civilian use.

Now California law.....

The California ban prohibits the importation, manufacture, selling, lending (except in the immediate presence of the owner), giving, or offering to sell high capacity magazines.
It is legal to rebuild magazines that you possessed prior to the California ban with modern parts. Date codes, and the LE/Military stamp are meaningless even in California, since as of the expiration of the ban in 2004, it became legal to possess magazine bodies marked "LE/Military Use Only"

There is no way for anyone to tell, simply by looking at a magazine, whether or not it was legally obtained within California.


Now, high caps at the range.

Handguns? Non-issue.
Semiautomatic rifles? It gets touchy, depending on who is observing you. Legally, if the rifle does not have a "fixed" magazine and is not otherwise an assault weapon, you are 100% legal. If the rifle has a fixed magazine, such as an AR or AK with a bullet button, then the use of a high-capacity magazine creates an AW and it is a felony.

It is possible that a busybody might see you using a high cap in a featureless rifle and say something either to you or a RO. If the RO knows the law, it ends there. If he says something to you (either the busybody or the RO), your only comment should be "Thank you for your concern, but these magazines are legal."

Don't embellish with "pre-ban" or "I found them" or anything else. "Pre-Ban" is meaningless in California today, since you can't legally sell/give/lend any high-caps to someone else, or import/manufacture them for yourself, even pre-ban magazines.
Likewise, it is not illegal to possess or use post-ban magazine bodies today, as those bodies could have been used to rebuild a pre-ban magazine that you had before 2000.

If the RO doesn't know the law, then he might call the cops.
At that point, three things may happen:
1 - The cops know the law and tell the RO to read the law.
2 - The cops are willing to listen to you, understand that you are not in violation, and tell the RO to read the law.
3 - The cops don't know the law, aren't willing to listen to you, and confiscate your guns, magazines, and possibly arrest you.

#2 shows the importance of every one of us studying and knowing the law. Keep hard copies of the AW flowcharts in your range bag. KNOW the law, including the PC sections (primarily PC 120xxx) that apply to firearms, so if a cop tries to tell you that something is illegal, you will know whether or not he is being honest, ignorant, or attempting to BS you into admitting guilt, and you can POLITELY quote the penal code that applies.
At the same time, you must be extremely cautious. Don't volunteer information about your specific situation. Keep your comments limited to the penal code and how they do not apply.
This is going to be hard when you are stressed out, and possibly being interrupted by the RO or the Busybody, but while being questioned, the cops are not your friends, no matter how friendly they may seem. They don't care about your fishing trip or last NASCAR race... they are there to determine if a crime has been committed and to gather enough information to make a legal arrest. The less you say, the more likely you are to go home with your guns.

If #2 doesn't work and things move to #3, and if you absolutely were 100% legal and there is no other "color" to the case, please contact the Calguns Foundation. They will provide, depending on the type of case, legal support, or refer you to a good gun attorney who can make the charges go away.

It is extremely important that the Calguns Foundation be aware of EVERY arrest involving legally configured firearms. To date, there have been zero successful prosecutions of people arrested under AW laws when they had a legally-configured OLL weapon, and it is extremely important that it remains to be the case until we are successful in overturning the California AW ban.

[Dion]

Thanks for your detailed and good info! I like to pretty much remain stress-free especially when I'm relaxing shuutin' mah gunz, so I'll just stay clear of all that noise. I'm sure this will help anybody else with the same curiousity such as I.

[AvyDriver]

Great write up cokebottle. Thanks for the clarification.


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[CSACANNONEER]

I don't know about 30 round mags but, I use 250 round belts, 75-150 round drums, etc. without any concerns or problems.

[SJgunguy24]

I'm thinking of stamping some mag bodies "Manufactured 1-1-2035" or "Manufactured the day hell froze over" just to do it.

Oh man did you just give me an idea........

[CSACANNONEER]

Oh man did you just give me an idea........

Do tell. Even if you just PM it to me.

[Merc1138]

Oh man did you just give me an idea........

Wait... are you going to import large capacity magazines in the future after the law is nullified in the courts, and bring them back in time since that wouldn't count as importing magazines that weren't already in CA, and you can't be charged with a crime you haven't committed yet, especially one that wasn't even in place when you did the import/manufacturing?

[Etihtsarom]

I have a friend who has 30 rd preban mags and has modified them into 10/30 in order to sell them b/c he doesn't want them any more, there's no problem there correct?

[Sniper3142]

I have a friend who has 30 rd preban mags and has modified them into 10/30 in order to sell them b/c he doesn't want them any more, there's no problem there correct?

IMHO, he did a VERY stupid thing.

Possession and Use of Large Capacity Magazines is LEGAL.

He just turned what is currently "unobtainium" into standard junk. There is currently no legal way to obtain new Large Capacity mags except for the very rare occurance of finding one. So your "friend" might have goten rid of items he can not replace.

Very Stupid.

[Etihtsarom]

Right,
Well for some one who has an AR with a BB and no way of proving that he had any such mag before the ban, AND the problem of not being able to legally use such mag at the range in said AR, it really sounds like a liability than an asset doesn't it?

[Cokebottle]

IMHO, he did a VERY stupid thing.

Possession and Use of Large Capacity Magazines is LEGAL.

He just turned what is currently "unobtainium" into standard junk. There is currently no legal way to obtain new Large Capacity mags except for the very rare occurance of finding one. So your "friend" might have goten rid of items he can not replace.

Very Stupid.
Except he didn't want them, and couldn't sell or give them away.

If he had no use for them and needed the money, he did the only legal thing he could have done.

[Cokebottle]

AND the problem of not being able to legally use such mag at the range in said AR, it really sounds like a liability than an asset doesn't it?
Fixed it for you.

You can't even insert that magazine into the BB AR in your shop without first removing the upper.

[Rocket Man]

Wait... are you going to import large capacity magazines in the future after the law is nullified in the courts, and bring them back in time since that wouldn't count as importing magazines that weren't already in CA, and you can't be charged with a crime you haven't committed yet, especially one that wasn't even in place when you did the import/manufacturing?


Dude you just smoked my brain trying to follow that! ;)

[23 Blast]

Just curious - to those who actually do own high capacity magazines (legally) - do you use them at the range at all? Or do you figure that the potential harassment from an uninformed LEO or RO outweighs the joy of blasting off thirty rounds without reloading?

Is all this moot if you own a RAW?

[Merc1138]

Just curious - to those who actually do own high capacity magazines (legally) - do you use them at the range at all? Or do you figure that the potential harassment from an uninformed LEO or RO outweighs the joy of blasting off thirty rounds without reloading?

Is all this moot if you own a RAW?

Since when does the RO care? And unless you did something like stick a large capacity magazine in a mag locked centerfire semi auto rifle, why would LEO at the range care?

[GOEX FFF]

In any (court) case, the burden of proof is not on you to prove that you owned it prior to 2000.
It's on them to prove you didn't own it prior to 2000.

[Merc1138]

The burden of proof is not on you to prove that you owned it prior..
its on them to prove you didn't own it pre 2000.

Actually it's not even that. The burden of proof is on them to prove you didn't import or manufacture it within the past 3 years. Ownership of a magazine prior to 2000 is not a requirement for legal possession.

[Etihtsarom]

Which is easy for them to prove since they can probably show your first DROS as being post 2000?

[Merc1138]

Which is easy for them to prove since they can probably show your first DROS as being post 2000?

What does your first DROS have to do with magazine ownership? What about people who... I dunno... bought their guns prior to the DROS requirement and then bought one last month? How would that prove all of the magazines for their other guns were illegally acquired?

Read PC 12020. Possession and use are not illegal.

[GOEX FFF]

Except he didn't want them, and couldn't sell or give them away.

If he had no use for them and needed the money, he did the only legal thing he could have done.

Not really...

Anyone in CA who has pre 2000 magazines can sell them (online) to anyone out-of-state where they are legal to currently purchase them.
There are other options to get rid of them other than their destruction. Magazines aren't like RAWs where they can't be transferred to anyone else where it's otherwise legal to buy.

[CSACANNONEER]

Just curious - to those who actually do own high capacity magazines (legally) - do you use them at the range at all? Or do you figure that the potential harassment from an uninformed LEO or RO outweighs the joy of blasting off thirty rounds without reloading?

Is all this moot if you own a RAW?

I never give it a second thought unless I actually need a 10 round mag for a mag locked semi auto. It's hard for me to find 10 round mags for most of my guns. I may own two 10 round AR mags but, I'm not sure. I can only seem to find one at a time.

Which is easy for them to prove since they can probably show your first DROS as being post 2000?

So what? Just because you did not buy a gun from a FFL before 2000 doesn't mean that you did not legally own any. Prior to '91 it was common practice to buy guns FTF. Also, owning a firearm is not a legal requirement for owning magazine. Many of us own magazines for guns we've never owned.

[Turo]

Which is easy for them to prove since they can probably show your first DROS as being post 2000?

Magazines don't go through the DROS system. Many people owned "large-capacity magazines" for guns they didn't own before 2000. Not everybody just has the magazines that came with a gun.

[GOEX FFF]

So what? Just because you did not buy a gun from a FFL before 2000 doesn't mean that you did not legally own any. Prior to '91 it was common practice to buy guns FTF. Also, owning a firearm is not a legal requirement for owning magazine. Many of us own magazines for guns we've never owned.

^^^ That

Magazines don't go through the DROS system. Many people owned "large-capacity magazines" for guns they didn't own before 2000. Not everybody just has the magazines that came with a gun.

^^^ and That

My father, long before he passed in 1998 was a huge collector of misc. and WWII stuff.
His collection (now mine) included magazines, ammo, parts and other items that of which he never even owned the actual firearm they went to.

Also, many people in CA also purchased magazines to firearms they hadn't owned in anticipation to the magazine ban. That's what upcoming bans do. The masses flock to buy what and how much they can before it's banned.

[blakdawg]

Just curious - to those who actually do own high capacity magazines (legally) - do you use them at the range at all? Or do you figure that the potential harassment from an uninformed LEO or RO outweighs the joy of blasting off thirty rounds without reloading?

Is all this moot if you own a RAW?

When I was your age, kiddo, we had to walk through 10 miles of snow to go to our dot-com jobs, uphill BOTH ways. We paid $100 for a used 13-round Glock 23 magazine and we were damn happy to do it. Glocks weren't green, AR's weren't pink, and every gun coming out of Springfield Armory was made of metal. Colt and S&W were owned by cowards. Gas was $2 a gallon, we stocked up on cases of .223 for $169 to get ready for Y2K, bought giant sacks of dogfood online with free shipping from a sock puppet, and our president lied about b**wjobs, not WMD's or birth certificates. Those were the days ..

I have a couple of RAW AR-15's (by name, not feature, so that's not going to change) and a ****-load of 30 rd preban mags for them. I did take them to the range in the early 2000's and got some stares and quizzical looks but no actual interference.

It's been several years since either the AR's or the 30rd mags have been outside - partly because ammo is so expensive, partly because I don't want to deal with BS from idiots. I'm planning to build some BB AR's for use with 10 rd mags and leave the pre 1/1/2000 stuff at home, in case of SHTF or an improvement in my regulatory environment.

I also have a number of > 10 rd pistol mags for my Glocks. Historically I haven't used them for practice at the range because they were expensive in the run-up to 1/1/2000, and because I believed they'd be difficult/impossible to repair if they got worn or otherwise damaged. I am not particularly concerned about people at the range counting how many rounds I can fire without reloading.

Now that, post 2004, it's become pretty easy to buy rebuild kits for the 10+ mags, I'm not as worried about damaging them; but it's still tough for me to drop a $100 pistol mag on the floor/ground without feeling a little sick to my stomach. I guess I'm turning into the magazine equivalent of the people who grew up in the 1920's and can't throw away a piece of string or an empty tuna can because they can remember when even those things could be really expensive/valuable, even though they've already got a garage full of balls of old string and empty washed-out tuna cans.

[Cokebottle]

Not really...

Anyone in CA who has pre 2000 magazines can sell them (online) to anyone out-of-state where they are legal to currently purchase them.
There are other options to get rid of them other than their destruction. Magazines aren't like RAWs where they can't be transferred to anyone else where it's otherwise legal to buy.
It's pushing it.
Not likely to be prosecuted, but the PC does read:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
There is no exemption in PC12020(b) for private individuals to sell to out of state entities. If you are in California, and you "keep for sale, or offer or expose for sale" it is a violation.

This is not unlike the frequently asked about "found" listed assault weapon that was never registered. People say "Just sell it to someone outside of California" which is a no-go, and the act of transporting it to AZ to sell ends up being two felonies, both possession and transportation of an unregistered AW (and the penalties for transportation are worse than for mere possession)

[G1500]

Wait... are you going to import large capacity magazines in the future after the law is nullified in the courts, and bring them back in time since that wouldn't count as importing magazines that weren't already in CA, and you can't be charged with a crime you haven't committed yet, especially one that wasn't even in place when you did the import/manufacturing?

That makes no sense. If you were going to time travel in order to legally obtain some 30 round mags, you would definitely want to travel back in time, for several reasons, one of the main reasons being that they would be far cheaper, considering inflation and whatnot now, also in the future there would be a huge demand for the magazines as well and supply and demand would kick in. Just imagine all of the fuel you would have to use to get up to 88 MPH to travel to different dates in the future to find when the law was revoked. It would take a lot of time and effort, when you could just go back to the early 90's and get them for way cheaper.

[GOEX FFF]

It's pushing it.
Not likely to be prosecuted, but the PC does read:

There is no exemption in PC12020(b) for private individuals to sell to out of state entities. If you are in California, and you "keep for sale, or offer or expose for sale" it is a violation.


Here's Gene's post from 2006 asking this very question. But i can't find a follow up to it.
Hopefully he's received that DOJ on the matter and he spots this thread. Otherwise, I'll shoot him a PM and ask if such letter exists.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33572

[23 Blast]

Ugh - such convoluted laws. :(

The burden of proof isn't on you, but if some overzealous RO or LEO sees you with say - a Mini 14 using detachable 30-round magazines, even if the gun and magazines have all been in your possession since before 2000, are they likely to harrass you and confiscate your weapon and magazines?

That's mainly what I'm asking.

[Merc1138]

What RO ever cares what capacity magazines you use? I've never seen this. And unless you're making an unregistered assault weapon(by putting a large capacity magazine in a mag locked rifle) LEO isn't going to care either.

And why are you even concerned with the range officer? I'm assuming that's what you mean by RO. Their job is to make sure people are following the rules of the range and shooting safely, not counting how many rounds people put in a magazine. Even if they did count how many rounds were in your mag, they have zero authority anyway except for asking you to leave. Telling customers to leave for no reason is against their interest anyway(no paying customers = no money to pay staff).

Stop being paranoid. Like we've pointed out, there is no PC regulating their possession or use(with the exception of the AW laws, and if you aren't violating the AW laws, no one will care).

That makes no sense. If you were going to time travel in order to legally obtain some 30 round mags, you would definitely want to travel back in time, for several reasons, one of the main reasons being that they would be far cheaper, considering inflation and whatnot now, also in the future there would be a huge demand for the magazines as well and supply and demand would kick in. Just imagine all of the fuel you would have to use to get up to 88 MPH to travel to different dates in the future to find when the law was revoked. It would take a lot of time and effort, when you could just go back to the early 90's and get them for way cheaper.

Can't travel back in time to get mags that didn't exist. Also, fuel costs are negated thanks to Mr. Fusion.

[23 Blast]

Just so I'm clear: putting a large capacity magazine in say, a featureless AR or AK = good to go, but putting same magazine in an AR or AK in their native form (pistol grip w/ BB) = felony and trip to a pound-me-in-the-@zz prison?

[Kerplow]

I'm thinking of stamping some mag bodies "Manufactured 1-1-2035" or "Manufactured the day hell froze over" just to do it.

lollerz. where can i buy your rebuild kits?:D

[Reductio]

Just so I'm clear: putting a large capacity magazine in say, a featureless AR or AK = good to go, but putting same magazine in an AR or AK in their native form (pistol grip w/ BB) = felony and trip to a pound-me-in-the-@zz prison?

Oh it's worse than that... if you have a featureless rifle but still have a BB on it, it's still a felony.

Silly citizen, you should know it's more dangerous to have a high-cap mag that's fixed as opposed to one you can just remove and replace at the push of a button... :banghead:

[CSACANNONEER]

When I was your age, kiddo, we had to walk through 10 miles of snow to go to our dot-com jobs, uphill BOTH ways. We paid $100 for a used 13-round Glock 23 magazine and we were damn happy to do it. Glocks weren't green, AR's weren't pink, and every gun coming out of Springfield Armory was made of metal. Colt and S&W were owned by cowards. Gas was $2 a gallon, we stocked up on cases of .223 for $169 to get ready for Y2K, bought giant sacks of dogfood online with free shipping from a sock puppet, and our president lied about b**wjobs, not WMD's or birth certificates. Those were the days ..



Hey kiddo,

When I was your age, there was no such thing as dot-com or even PCs. Apples were for baking pies. Remington was the only one making "plastic" guns (Nylon 66), no one had even thought gas could reach $1/gal, our president lied about "tapes" not BJs and Time Magazine was reporting that the nect ice age would be here by the year 2000.

I can't wait for an OF to chime in and prove I'm still a "kiddo" too.

[Dion]

My original curiosity was more about whether I'd get hassled or not, even if it were legal. Given that there is good possibility, I'd rather leave it alone. What sparked this was my father-in-law has a hi cap for his M1 Carbine, which he proceeded to tell me he'd "never bring that to the range".

Nobody cares about my 15 round mag I have for my M1 Carbine or my 16 for my EAA Witness. Unless you get on top of me, it isn't that obvious, not like a 30 round on a rifle. I want to get more mags for my M1 and to keep my blood pressure at a healthy rate, I'll probably stick with less than 15 round mags for it.

Sucks, but I'm one to avoid drama.

Not to get all hippy on y'all, but the range (like creating art or cycling) is a place of peace for me and I get into almost a meditate state when I'm shooting. The range is "alone time". Nothing bothers the f$ck out of me more than a range officer riding my ***** for something stupid.

[CSACANNONEER]

My original curiosity was more about whether I'd get hassled or not, even if it were legal. Given that there is good possibility, I'd rather leave it alone. What sparked this was my father-in-law has a hi cap for his M1 Carbine, which he proceeded to tell me he'd "never bring that to the range".

Nobody cares about my 15 round mag I have for my M1 Carbine or my 16 for my EAA Witness. Unless you get on top of me, it isn't that obvious, not like a 30 round on a rifle. I want to get more mags for my M1 and to keep my blood pressure at a healthy rate, I'll probably stick with less than 15 round mags for it.

Sucks, but I'm one to avoid drama.

I just don't understand why you think that there's even a possibility of any drama. As long as you are using legally owned +10 round mags in a legal manner, no one will bother you.

[Dion]

I just don't understand why you think that there's even a possibility of any drama. As long as you are using legally owned +10 round mags in a legal manner, no one will bother you.

You may have misunderstood me. Hypothetically, if I were to pop in a 30 round, from the responses, there is a possibility I would get hassled. Not the type of thing I want to deal with when I'm at the range (quoting the law, defending myself, pulling out printed penal codes from my bag, etc.) It's all unwanted attention.

[Oceanbob]

You may have misunderstood me. Hypothetically, if I were to pop in a 30 round, from the responses, there is a possibility I would get hassled. Not the type of thing I want to deal with when I'm at the range (quoting the law, defending my self, pulling our printed penal codes, etc.) It's all unwanted attention.

It is not illegal to own or possess any magazine in California.

Range officers (former McDonald and Turners Outdoorsman employees) will not ask you anything.

I show up at my range with 30 rounders; not a problem. Once I let a LEO who was sharpening his handgun skills to prepare for a Police Pistol Match, shoot my HK.

I let him shoot a 20 round magazine..he was stoked.

No one has ever been arrested for hi cap magazines (only) the last 10 years since the law went into effect.

This law is a passive law, not an interactive law.

[Dion]

Well, that's a little comforting, Oceanbob. It probably depends on the range, as well. I've been to some ranges where they have you on lockdown. It's all in the name of safety, but they are much tighter than the range that I usually go to.

[Oceanbob]

Well, that's a little comforting, Oceanbob. It probably depends on the range, as well. I've been to some ranges where they have you on lockdown. It's all in the name of safety, but they are much tighter than the range that I usually go to.

And in the dozen ranges I've been too in the last 10 years not once have they inspected or questioned anyones magazines.

[kemasa]

Semiautomatic rifles? It gets touchy, depending on who is observing you. Legally, if the rifle does not have a "fixed" magazine and is not otherwise an assault weapon, you are 100% legal. If the rifle has a fixed magazine, such as an AR or AK with a bullet button, then the use of a high-capacity magazine creates an AW and it is a felony.


It does not depend on who is observing you, it depends on the firearm. If the firearm is not an a-salt weapon, then it is not an issue.

It is also NOT correct that just having a fixed magazine creates a problem. I can install a BB on my RAW (which is a bit silly to do, but it is my right) and then install a high capacity magazine and there is no problem at all. I might get hassled, but it is perfectly legal. If you installed a high capacity magazine on a firearm that is not a RAW and that creates a firearm which is considered an a-salt weapon, then it is illegal.

[dieselpower]

watched a guy who I know works in a gun store slap a 30rd magazine in his AK with Bullet button while standing next to the range Officer who is LEO. Yes he saw him do it, yes he knew what he did was wrong... I saw the RO do a :rolleyes: and walk away.

It isnt a RO's job to enforce CA law, some think so, but most just want to provide a measure of safety for the patrons.

I know a guy with a RAW AK who installed a BB....and still uses his 30rd and 75rd mags. I have explained it to him twice, but he chooses to listen to "other" people. I just laugh.

[kemasa]

Personally, if people want to deal with it, I think it is a fine idea to install a BB on RAWs. This would create a problem for LE since then they need to get more information as to whether there is actually an issue and that could cause them to just want to deal with it at all. I am not sure that they have a right to check out the firearm since there is NO indication that any laws have been violated just because the firearm has a BB and a high capacity magazine.

[TMC]

What bothers me about this whole discussion is the assumption that somebody shooting a rifle with a 30 round mag is breaking the law. I seems most of the people who go to public ranges are in their 20's and they think that shooting began when they started. They don't realize that the AR15 has been around since the 60's and lots of people had them before the CA ban along with 30 round magazines.

Now if the shooter is 28 or less then I guess there might be something hinky going on but I believe that people should mind their own business in these matters. If the RO has an issue then pack up your gear and leave, I would even if I was shooting one of my registered rifles.

[crazychinaman]

Just curious - to those who actually do own high capacity magazines (legally) - do you use them at the range at all? Or do you figure that the potential harassment from an uninformed LEO or RO outweighs the joy of blasting off thirty rounds without reloading?

Is all this moot if you own a RAW?

I use my High cap mags all the time.30 rders and beta mags for Ar's all the time,Along with my 20 rdrs for my H&K 91,M-1A,Ar-10,Valmet 78,And my Fal's.Never been asked anything. Just remember, to lock you guns and keep ammo seperate.

[kemasa]

One thing to also consider is that someone who was under 18 when the law went into effect could have bought high capacity magazines or been given them by their parents.

I don't have 10 round magazines for most of my firearms and even those that I do, I don't use since they are new and the high capacity magazines are used.

[Merc1138]

My original curiosity was more about whether I'd get hassled or not, even if it were legal. Given that there is good possibility, I'd rather leave it alone. What sparked this was my father-in-law has a hi cap for his M1 Carbine, which he proceeded to tell me he'd "never bring that to the range".

Nobody cares about my 15 round mag I have for my M1 Carbine or my 16 for my EAA Witness. Unless you get on top of me, it isn't that obvious, not like a 30 round on a rifle. I want to get more mags for my M1 and to keep my blood pressure at a healthy rate, I'll probably stick with less than 15 round mags for it.

Sucks, but I'm one to avoid drama.

Not to get all hippy on y'all, but the range (like creating art or cycling) is a place of peace for me and I get into almost a meditate state when I'm shooting. The range is "alone time". Nothing bothers the f$ck out of me more than a range officer riding my ***** for something stupid.

How is there a good possibility of getting hassled based on the responses? have you even been reading what we've told you? Unless you're breaking the law and making an unregistered assault weapon, no one is going to care what you do.

Where do people come up with this stuff? Is there some range that actually hassles people about magazine capacity(other than chabot and their rule about only 2 rounds in an SKS at a time) because I've never seen it.

[Merc1138]

Just remember, to lock you guns and keep ammo seperate.

And why does anyone need to remember to do this? Can you please cite the penal code that specifies you are required to lock guns and ammo up in separate containers?

Oh wait, it doesn't exist. You need to keep the guns unloaded, not in a separate container from the ammo.

[kemasa]

The fact is that you can get hassled if you go shooting, so either deal with it (don't worry about it by nothing doing anything illegal) or don't go shooting at all.

[Dion]

How is there a good possibility of getting hassled based on the responses? have you even been reading what we've told you? Unless you're breaking the law and making an unregistered assault weapon, no one is going to care what you do.

Where do people come up with this stuff? Is there some range that actually hassles people about magazine capacity(other than chabot and their rule about only 2 rounds in an SKS at a time) because I've never seen it.

This is what got my attention:

That was in reference to the Federal ban, which began in 1994 and ended in 2004.
The California ban was put in place in January 2000.

There is an important distinction, and the term "pre-ban" is legally meaningless in California today.

The Federal ban did not prohibit the transfer, possession, or use of high-capacity magazines, even after the ban. It merely prohibited the manufacture of new magazines for civilian use. That is why the mag bodies were stamped "LE/Military Use Only".

With the sunset of the Federal AW ban, those mag bodies immediately became 100% legal for civilian use.

Now California law.....

The California ban prohibits the importation, manufacture, selling, lending (except in the immediate presence of the owner), giving, or offering to sell high capacity magazines.
It is legal to rebuild magazines that you possessed prior to the California ban with modern parts. Date codes, and the LE/Military stamp are meaningless even in California, since as of the expiration of the ban in 2004, it became legal to possess magazine bodies marked "LE/Military Use Only"

There is no way for anyone to tell, simply by looking at a magazine, whether or not it was legally obtained within California.


Now, high caps at the range.

Handguns? Non-issue.
Semiautomatic rifles? It gets touchy, depending on who is observing you. Legally, if the rifle does not have a "fixed" magazine and is not otherwise an assault weapon, you are 100% legal. If the rifle has a fixed magazine, such as an AR or AK with a bullet button, then the use of a high-capacity magazine creates an AW and it is a felony.

It is possible that a busybody might see you using a high cap in a featureless rifle and say something either to you or a RO. If the RO knows the law, it ends there. If he says something to you (either the busybody or the RO), your only comment should be "Thank you for your concern, but these magazines are legal."

Don't embellish with "pre-ban" or "I found them" or anything else. "Pre-Ban" is meaningless in California today, since you can't legally sell/give/lend any high-caps to someone else, or import/manufacture them for yourself, even pre-ban magazines.
Likewise, it is not illegal to possess or use post-ban magazine bodies today, as those bodies could have been used to rebuild a pre-ban magazine that you had before 2000.

If the RO doesn't know the law, then he might call the cops.
At that point, three things may happen:
1 - The cops know the law and tell the RO to read the law.
2 - The cops are willing to listen to you, understand that you are not in violation, and tell the RO to read the law.
3 - The cops don't know the law, aren't willing to listen to you, and confiscate your guns, magazines, and possibly arrest you.

#2 shows the importance of every one of us studying and knowing the law. Keep hard copies of the AW flowcharts in your range bag. KNOW the law, including the PC sections (primarily PC 120xxx) that apply to firearms, so if a cop tries to tell you that something is illegal, you will know whether or not he is being honest, ignorant, or attempting to BS you into admitting guilt, and you can POLITELY quote the penal code that applies.
At the same time, you must be extremely cautious. Don't volunteer information about your specific situation. Keep your comments limited to the penal code and how they do not apply.
This is going to be hard when you are stressed out, and possibly being interrupted by the RO or the Busybody, but while being questioned, the cops are not your friends, no matter how friendly they may seem. They don't care about your fishing trip or last NASCAR race... they are there to determine if a crime has been committed and to gather enough information to make a legal arrest. The less you say, the more likely you are to go home with your guns.

If #2 doesn't work and things move to #3, and if you absolutely were 100% legal and there is no other "color" to the case, please contact the Calguns Foundation. They will provide, depending on the type of case, legal support, or refer you to a good gun attorney who can make the charges go away.

It is extremely important that the Calguns Foundation be aware of EVERY arrest involving legally configured firearms. To date, there have been zero successful prosecutions of people arrested under AW laws when they had a legally-configured OLL weapon, and it is extremely important that it remains to be the case until we are successful in overturning the California AW ban.

I don't think there is a "good" possibility necessarily, but there is a possibility - even a small chance.

I just hate being hassled for any reason, and if I have to start quoting law and fumbling around papers with an uptight RO, my day is officially ruined at that point. Just give me a lane and leave me alone.

This all reminds me of certain light/signal laws on custom motorcycles. Yeah, you can do modifications and still stay within the law, but getting pulled over and having to explain how you are within the law is sometimes more of a PITA than it's worth doing.

This is kind of my take on this. I don't mind 10 rnd. mags, and I would love to take a 30 rnd. mag for s&g's. But if there is any chance of me being messed with, I don't want to do it - in other words, my s&g's is not worth being hassled.

I know one range I frequent that I won't be hassled, so I can probably go there with it and not be bothered. Their biggest concern is steel casing ammo :rolleyes:

If I bring a hi cap and I get in trouble, I'm suing all of you!!! :p

[Merc1138]

I know one range I frequent that I won't be hassled, so I can probably go there with it and not be bothered. Their biggest concern is steel casing ammo :rolleyes:

So then just go to the range. If the RO for whatever reason does decide to hassle you(which isn't going to happen), pull a 10 round magazine out of your bag and put the 30 away, problem solved. ROs aren't there to enforce laws whether or not the law exists, they are there to enforce the rules of the range. You've spent more time worrying about being hassled than the amount of time people get hassled.

[coyotebait]

Which is easy for them to prove since they can probably show your first DROS as being post 2000?

In '99, I bought several "hi cap mags" for guns that I didn't yet own, 'cause I knew that I wanted the guns and WOULD own them eventually. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who did this.

[hnoppenberger]

if you owned the mag before the ban, then no problem, if you "find" one now then yes there is an issue

the only issue is YOU.

[hnoppenberger]

In '99, I bought several "hi cap mags" for guns that I didn't yet own, 'cause I knew that I wanted the guns and WOULD own them eventually. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who did this.

everyone did this, super common. parents bought children stuff as well.

[Merc1138]

The amount of FUD in this thread is staggering. So many people with FUD all concentrated into one thread... it's like it may collapse on itself and form a black hole... FUD hole... and continue to attract even more and more FUD.

[coyotebait]

That makes no sense. If you were going to time travel in order to legally obtain some 30 round mags, you would definitely want to travel back in time, for several reasons, one of the main reasons being that they would be far cheaper, considering inflation and whatnot now, also in the future there would be a huge demand for the magazines as well and supply and demand would kick in. Just imagine all of the fuel you would have to use to get up to 88 MPH to travel to different dates in the future to find when the law was revoked. It would take a lot of time and effort, when you could just go back to the early 90's and get them for way cheaper.

Bingo, go back to the 80's, plenty of AR mags and gas was .80 cents a gallon....for premium!!

[Merc1138]

Bingo, go back to the 80's, plenty of AR mags and gas was .80 cents a gallon....for premium!!

Actually, he forgot one other important part. You'd only need to travel ahead...

:twoweeks:

[desert_dick]

FWIW, I use 30 round mags whenever I go to the range with my RAW and nobody's ever said anything to me regarding them. (Chabot range)

-Rich

[coyotebait]

Ugh - such convoluted laws. :(

The burden of proof isn't on you, but if some overzealous RO or LEO sees you with say - a Mini 14 using detachable 30-round magazines, even if the gun and magazines have all been in your possession since before 2000, are they likely to harrass you and confiscate your weapon and magazines?

That's mainly what I'm asking.

I have a new Mini 14 and 30 round mags that I've had since the beginning of time. Your legal to use them, however, at a public range, just to avoid the headache I use my 10 rounders. If I'm at a range where I know the employees and am certain that they know the laws, then the 30's come out and play. I don't visit many ranges that I'm not familiar with.

[coyotebait]

Hey kiddo,

When I was your age, there was no such thing as dot-com or even PCs. Apples were for baking pies. Remington was the only one making "plastic" guns (Nylon 66), no one had even thought gas could reach $1/gal, our president lied about "tapes" not BJs and Time Magazine was reporting that the nect ice age would be here by the year 2000.

I can't wait for an OF to chime in and prove I'm still a "kiddo" too.

By "tapes", you must be referring to Nixon.

[tonelar]

I made some 10/30s from the discard pile when I last rebuilt my stanag magazines.
The ranges I've shot at that have 0 issue with large caps are Los Altos, Chabot, Richmond and San Leandro.

[Dion]

You've spent more time worrying about being hassled than the amount of time people get hassled.

If you knew how much I get hassled for things (non-gun related) from the general public at large, you'd understand why I'm "worried". I don't even do anything bad/illegal/annoying, I keep to myself, stay quiet, and mind my own business - but for some reason people are always hassling me over something.

For example, I may be riding my bike in an area that's perfectly okay for me to ride it and some idiot comes up, "EXCUSE ME, SIR... YOU CANNOT BE RIDING YOUR BICYCLE HERE! SIR!" Even though I can. Then I get into a verbal battle and now my day is ruined. Whether it be walking my dogs, parking, standing somewhere, etc. - all within my rights and law to do so... but somebody with nothing better to do always has to raise their voice. It's just a PITA.

My wife thinks I'm cursed because she tells me she's never known anybody who keeps to themselves like I do get as hassled as much as I do. She get's all hippie'fied and says it's "my energy". :o

Anyhow, thanks for all your responses, guys. Eh, I may just give it a try. :)

[Etihtsarom]

So let me sum this up to make sure I get it right:
If you don't own a RAW or a featureless AR, but instead have a BB'd AR, then having a 30rd mag is useless to you b/c you can't legally use it any where. BUT, you can legally transport it, and if stopped by cops, won't get in trouble for owning it BECAUSE (let's say you're now 18 yrs old) when you were 7 years old (at 10 minutes till it turned y2k) your parents, or may be some adult neighbor who is no longer around, gave you a stash of high cap magazines.
Does that sound about right? If it is right, what is the payoff of having them?

Can't use at the range - breaking the law - may be no LEO around, but still breaking the law.
Can't use on BLM - breaking the law - and if LEO/ranger stops by, your life is ruined.

Why not just buy a tish load of 10 rounders and save yourself the hassle?

[Dion]

If it is right, what is the payoff of having them?

Moar zombie killing.

http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/zombie-gun.jpg

[diginit]

Took my AK to SVRG last Sat. Put 2,30's on the bench. No big deal. Pulled out a 75 rnd drum and all of a sudden, There was silence and everyone seemed to be staring at me. So I started shooting steel. A minute or so later, After the 75 was empty,The RO came over and asked me what year my AK was. We talked guns awhile and I dumped the 30's. Then the rangemaster came over and asked me if a rivet build was difficult. It seems he has 2 screw builds. Got lots of questions from other shooters and lots of "Wow, That's cool" comments. Wasn't even asked to slow down!
Great day at the range.

[kemasa]

The bottom line is that if you let the fear of being hassled prevent you from doing what is legal, then the anti-gun people win, they don't have to outlaw the existing high capacity magazines, fearful people won't use them. Of course, criminals don't care and it won't affect them.

[rrr70]

there is NO indication that any laws have been violated just because the firearm has a BB and a high capacity magazine.

Yes, there is.

[kemasa]

You might THINK that there is an indication, but in reality there is not. If I take my legally registered a-salt weapon and put a bullet button on it, which is perfectly legal, and go down to the range and use high capacity magazines, NO laws have been violated. If NO laws have been violated, then clearly there is NO indication that any laws have been violated. Maybe my mag release had a problem and living in CA it was just easier to get a BB instead. Maybe I just wanted to hassle people over the stupid law. LE can check to see that it is legally registered, so there is no violation of the laws.

So, please explain what REAL indication of a law has been violated just because the firearm has a BB on it and high capacity magazines are used? It is not valid to say that typically a firearm with a BB is not a RAW, so use of a high capacity magazines would be an indication.

If you REALLY think that there is an indication, then anyone who looks like they might be a criminal at the range is an "indication" of illegal activity. Who looks like a criminal is quite open.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indication

[rrr70]

So, you are saying that BB and 30 round magazine is OK?

[coyotebait]

So let me sum this up to make sure I get it right:
If you don't own a RAW or a featureless AR, but instead have a BB'd AR, then having a 30rd mag is useless to you b/c you can't legally use it any where. BUT, you can legally transport it, and if stopped by cops, won't get in trouble for owning it BECAUSE (let's say you're now 18 yrs old) when you were 7 years old (at 10 minutes till it turned y2k) your parents, or may be some adult neighbor who is no longer around, gave you a stash of high cap magazines.
Does that sound about right? If it is right, what is the payoff of having them?

Can't use at the range - breaking the law - may be no LEO around, but still breaking the law.
Can't use on BLM - breaking the law - and if LEO/ranger stops by, your life is ruined.

Why not just buy a tish load of 10 rounders and save yourself the hassle?

If you decide to go featureless, you can then use your hi caps. Personally, if I ever do an AR build, I'll be going featureless, the detachable mags are much more valuable to me than the "features" and already having some 30 rounders...well...I won't be pinning them to 10's.

[kemasa]

So, you are saying that BB and 30 round magazine is OK?

A BB and a 30 round magazine is perfectly legal on a RAW. It all depends on the firearm and you can not determine that from just looking at it.

If you have a firearm which is required to have a non-detachable magazine in order to not be considered an a-salt weapon, then you could not put a magazine with a capacity over 30 rounds on it without violating the law.

There is NO visual indication as to whether the firearm involved is a RAW or not and since it can be legal, there is therefore no indication that just because the firearm has a BB and a 30 round magazine that it is, in fact, illegal.

If I showed you a firearm with a BB, could you visually determined if it was a RAW or not? What if I showed you a firearm without a BB, could you determine if it was legally registered by just looking at it?

Would it be valid to say that someone shooting an AR without a BB is an indication of illegal activity because if it is not registered, it is not legal?

[Mickey D]

Hey kiddo,

When I was your age, there was no such thing as dot-com or even PCs. Apples were for baking pies. Remington was the only one making "plastic" guns (Nylon 66), no one had even thought gas could reach $1/gal, our president lied about "tapes" not BJs and Time Magazine was reporting that the nect ice age would be here by the year 2000.

I can't wait for an OF to chime in and prove I'm still a "kiddo" too.

I'm an OF, and we sound about the same age. :D

[Mickey D]

So let me sum this up to make sure I get it right:
If you don't own a RAW or a featureless AR, but instead have a BB'd AR, then having a 30rd mag is useless to you b/c you can't legally use it any where. BUT, you can legally transport it, and if stopped by cops, won't get in trouble for owning it BECAUSE (let's say you're now 18 yrs old) when you were 7 years old (at 10 minutes till it turned y2k) your parents, or may be some adult neighbor who is no longer around, gave you a stash of high cap magazines.
Does that sound about right? If it is right, what is the payoff of having them?
Can't use at the range - breaking the law - may be no LEO around, but still breaking the law.
Can't use on BLM - breaking the law - and if LEO/ranger stops by, your life is ruined.

Why not just buy a tish load of 10 rounders and save yourself the hassle?

Armageddon

[Merc1138]

So let me sum this up to make sure I get it right:
If you don't own a RAW or a featureless AR, but instead have a BB'd AR, then having a 30rd mag is useless to you b/c you can't legally use it any where. BUT, you can legally transport it, and if stopped by cops, won't get in trouble for owning it BECAUSE (let's say you're now 18 yrs old) when you were 7 years old (at 10 minutes till it turned y2k) your parents, or may be some adult neighbor who is no longer around, gave you a stash of high cap magazines.
Does that sound about right? If it is right, what is the payoff of having them?

Can't use at the range - breaking the law - may be no LEO around, but still breaking the law.
Can't use on BLM - breaking the law - and if LEO/ranger stops by, your life is ruined.

Why not just buy a tish load of 10 rounders and save yourself the hassle?

Why does there need to be a "payoff" for having the magazines? Maybe today you want to take your m4gery with BB to the range, and tomorrow you swap the grip out to make it featureless. Why does anyone need to justify their owning of large capacity magazines?

[rrr70]

A BB and a 30 round magazine is perfectly legal on a RAW. It all depends on the firearm and you can not determine that from just looking at it.

If you have a firearm which is required to have a non-detachable magazine in order to not be considered an a-salt weapon, then you could not put a magazine with a capacity over 30 rounds on it without violating the law.

There is NO visual indication as to whether the firearm involved is a RAW or not and since it can be legal, there is therefore no indication that just because the firearm has a BB and a 30 round magazine that it is, in fact, illegal.

If I showed you a firearm with a BB, could you visually determined if it was a RAW or not? What if I showed you a firearm without a BB, could you determine if it was legally registered by just looking at it?

Would it be valid to say that someone shooting an AR without a BB is an indication of illegal activity because if it is not registered, it is not legal?

Really? I thought BB+30 rounders is no go. Could you provide source?

[blakdawg]

The best way to figure out if you're going to get hassled for 10+ round mags at your local range is to pay attention to what others are doing. If other people are shooting 10+ mags in their guns without trouble, you probably can, too.

[Librarian]

Really? I thought BB+30 rounders is no go. Could you provide source?
Remember he was referring to a RAW - registered assault weapon.

The issue with BB + 30 round is BB makes the weapon 'fixed mag' and fixed mag with 10+ is an 'assault weapon'.

I don't know why one would put a BB on a RAW, but since it's already an 'assault weapon', it cannot be even more of an 'assault weapon'.

[rrr70]

Remember he was referring to a RAW - registered assault weapon.

The issue with BB + 30 round is BB makes the weapon 'fixed mag' and fixed mag with 10+ is an 'assault weapon'.

I don't know why one would put a BB on a RAW, but since it's already an 'assault weapon', it cannot be even more of an 'assault weapon'.

I understand. It just sound stupid.

[kemasa]

Really? I thought BB+30 rounders is no go. Could you provide source?

You need to provide a source, not me. I gave you an example, a RAW with a BB, perfectly legal, show me where such a firearm is illegal.

A non-RAW with a BB and 30 round magazines is illegal. I can show you where that is illegal.

How about a test? You are the best police officer in your state. You are at the range all day for training. In your town there are 9 identical twins (one better than octomom :-), the Smith Brothers. Some are law abiding and some are not, but you don't know which ones are or not. Every hour a different Smith brother comes to the range. If you make a mistake in the determination, you will get fired and will only be able to work as a security guard/greeter at Walmart, so make your decision carefully and don't make any assumptions. Can you decide 100%, which ones are legal, which ones are illegal?

John A. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB and 10 round magazines.

John B. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB and 30 round magazines.

John C. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has no BB and has 10 round magazines.

John D. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has no BB and has 30 round magazines.

John E. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB, 10 round magazines and fires full-auto.

John F. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifles, it has no BB, 30 round magazines and fires full-auto.

John G. Smith comes to the range with a .22 bolt action, single shot rifle.

Based only on a visual inspection, what are your answers? Are you going to remain a police officer or are you doomed to work at Walmart for the rest of your life? Please note, not all of the brothers came to the range, so you don't know if only the law abiding came or not.

[kemasa]

I understand. It just sound stupid.

It may sound stupid, but then again so is using 10 round magazines on a RAW in my opinion. Some of the BB are nice, such as one I saw with a larger button that can be screwed on (when you are out of state), which would be easier to use with gloves.

The fact is that it is not illegal therefore can not be an indication of something illegal. While you might wonder if someone shooting a firearm with a BB and 30 round magazines is violating the law, the simple fact is that you don't know one way or the other.

[CSACANNONEER]

You need to provide a source, not me. I gave you an example, a RAW with a BB, perfectly legal, show me where such a firearm is illegal.

A non-RAW with a BB and 30 round magazines is illegal. I can show you where that is illegal.

How about a test? You are the best police officer in your state. You are at the range all day for training. In your town there are 9 identical twins (one better than octomom :-), the Smith Brothers. Some are law abiding and some are not, but you don't know which ones are or not. Every hour a different Smith brother comes to the range. If you make a mistake in the determination, you will get fired and will only be able to work as a security guard/greeter at Walmart, so make your decision carefully and don't make any assumptions. Can you decide 100%, which ones are legal, which ones are illegal?

John A. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB and 10 round magazines.

John B. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB and 30 round magazines.

John C. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has no BB and has 10 round magazines.

John D. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has no BB and has 30 round magazines.

John E. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifle, it has a BB, 10 round magazines and fires full-auto.

John F. Smith comes to the range with an AR rifles, it has no BB, 30 round magazines and fires full-auto.

John G. Smith comes to the range with a .22 bolt action, single shot rifle.

Based only on a visual inspection, what are your answers? Are you going to remain a police officer or are you doomed to work at Walmart for the rest of your life? Please note, not all of the brothers came to the range, so you don't know if only the law abiding came or not.

Not enough info. We need to know what state this is in. Are NFA items such as FA legal? Does the agency have knowledge that any brother has a NFA registered FA weapon? Does the state in question have a stop and ID law? This would make it easy to legally determine who's who. Do they all drive the exact same vehicle? Or, can I just run the plates on the vehicle each one comes in and then have PC to detain those who come in vehicles registered to the bad boys? Is there still die visible from the die pack that exploded on 3 of them when they robbed the bank last week? Does your idea of a "visual inspection" include getting close enough to see SNs and possible run the weapons to see if they are in any type of data base?

[kemasa]

If you had ALL the info, then it would be EASY.

Assume that this is in CA since otherwise most don't apply and this is CalGuns. The best cop should know if FA is illegal in CA :-).

No, you can't see the serial numbers. Even if you did, that would only tell you some of the aspects, such as if it was stolen, but it if was a RAW and registered to another brother, then it would be a problem.

They take the bus to the range or share one vehicle, can't make it easy :-).

You did get the correct answer, btw.

[rrr70]

It may sound stupid, but then again so is using 10 round magazines on a RAW in my opinion.

Agreed


While you might wonder if someone shooting a firearm with a BB and 30 round magazines is violating the law, the simple fact is that you don't know one way or the other.

When I'm at the range I really don't care what anyone shoots. I only care if they do it safely. That's why I always try to position myself at the end of the line.

[Dion]

Here's what I'd like to do:

I have an old Military M1 Carbine that I'd like to goof off with in terms of mods. It's a beautiful gun as is, so I'd probably keep the old wood stock if I want to change it back.

I would like to have a non-folding polymer stock with a pistol and foregrip, possibly a red dot. Any problems with a hi cap added to this bubba mall ninja mix?

I may just get 2 mag clips as an alternative to a hi cap mag.

[G1500]

What RO ever cares what capacity magazines you use? I've never seen this. And unless you're making an unregistered assault weapon(by putting a large capacity magazine in a mag locked rifle) LEO isn't going to care either.

And why are you even concerned with the range officer? I'm assuming that's what you mean by RO. Their job is to make sure people are following the rules of the range and shooting safely, not counting how many rounds people put in a magazine. Even if they did count how many rounds were in your mag, they have zero authority anyway except for asking you to leave. Telling customers to leave for no reason is against their interest anyway(no paying customers = no money to pay staff).

Stop being paranoid. Like we've pointed out, there is no PC regulating their possession or use(with the exception of the AW laws, and if you aren't violating the AW laws, no one will care).


I agree, but you have do-gooders who think they know more than you, and want you listen to what they have to say.

I was at the range I helped build and set up (My name is on the sign of said range "G1500 family range") and a member felt it prudent to tell me the rules and give me a safety first/safety last guideline paper he printed at home.

I just nod, and say thanks, have a good day.


Can't travel back in time to get mags that didn't exist. Also, fuel costs are negated thanks to Mr. Fusion.
Only mags that didn't exist are Pmags. Since Since the DMC was smashed by a train in 1990, you are going to have to go back to the future, again, to get a mr fusion. I suggest just going back to 1990 and either getting magazines, or stopping MJF from getting the DeLorean smashed. Or find doc on his gettaway and ask to borrow the locomotive.

[CSACANNONEER]

If you had ALL the info, then it would be EASY.

Assume that this is in CA since otherwise most don't apply and this is CalGuns. The best cop should know if FA is illegal in CA :-).
No, you can't see the serial numbers. Even if you did, that would only tell you some of the aspects, such as if it was stolen, but it if was a RAW and registered to another brother, then it would be a problem.

They take the bus to the range or share one vehicle, can't make it easy :-).

You did get the correct answer, btw.

Sorry, I can't play your game if you really think that the "best cop" doesn't know the law. FA guns are legal in Ca if you jump through all the right hoops. I've shot more than a few FA guns at ranges in Ca and they were all legal. :p

[Merc1138]

I agree, but you have do-gooders who think they know more than you, and want you listen to what they have to say.

I was at the range I helped build and set up (My name is on the sign of said range "G1500 family range") and a member felt it prudent to tell me the rules and give me a safety first/safety last guideline paper he printed at home.

I just nod, and say thanks, have a good day.



Only mags that didn't exist are Pmags. Since Since the DMC was smashed by a train in 1990, you are going to have to go back to the future, again, to get a mr fusion. I suggest just going back to 1990 and either getting magazines, or stopping MJF from getting the DeLorean smashed. Or find doc on his gettaway and ask to borrow the locomotive.

You're assuming that one only wants large capacity mags for an AR. And still, I don't have to go looking for Doc Brown, future me would have to. Hence only needing to make one trip to drop off mags.

Back to the topic at hand, I just don't get where all of these assumptions about getting "hassled" are coming from. I've never seen it happen, and I've heard anyone say they've seen it happen first hand. Any time I've ever read about someone getting hassled, it's always their cousin's uncle's friend's brother in law's neighbor and no one ever actually knows what range it occurred.

If you have the magazines, and you can use them in a configuration that is legal, then just do it. Stop trying to come up with goofy "what if" scenarios that don't actually happen.

[kemasa]

Sorry, I can't play your game if you really think that the "best cop" doesn't know the law. FA guns are legal in Ca if you jump through all the right hoops. I've shot more than a few FA guns at ranges in Ca and they were all legal. :p

Knowing the law is not enough, you have to know the complete situation, that is my point. With the list I gave, I could ask if anyone could say that they were 100% sure that any of them was legal or illegal, but it would be a trick question since there could be situations which made each legal or illegal.

For example, I met a person who had a Ruger MarkII, which was illegally converted to have a silencer and I think full-auto. On the surface, you might say that it was illegal for this person to have the firearm, but, in fact, it was 100% legal. Until you know ALL of the details, which are not obvious, you just don't know what the actual answer is.

I could tell you that I shot a BATF agent with a Sig P228 and did not get into any trouble and there were no issues, other than his hand hurt and it looked pretty nasty. My response was that he shot me first and it hurt and he said that he did not mean to shoot me. This is 100% true, but the first reaction would be that it can not be true.

[G1500]

Back to the topic at hand, I just don't get where all of these assumptions about getting "hassled" are coming from. I've never seen it happen, and I've heard anyone say they've seen it happen first hand. Any time I've ever read about someone getting hassled, it's always their cousin's uncle's friend's brother in law's neighbor and no one ever actually knows what range it occurred.

If you have the magazines, and you can use them in a configuration that is legal, then just do it. Stop trying to come up with goofy "what if" scenarios that don't actually happen.

I love hypothetical arguments, hypothetically, of course.

:chris:

[CSACANNONEER]

Knowing the law is not enough, you have to know the complete situation, that is my point.

I agree 100%. The rest of my posts are just playing with you.

[Glock82]

If you acquired it pre-ban then you are fine. I see high caps (pistols and rifles) at the range regularly. I think most people either assume you acquired them legally or are in law enforcement.

[stix213]

The use of 10/30's is so common now that I would be surprised if a BB rifle with a 30 rounder would catch anyone's attention now unless you popped off 30 rounds straight.

Still don't do it, just saying I don't think the look of a 30 rounder in a BB rifle is anything out of the ordinary anymore.

[OHOD]

The use of 10/30's is so common now that I would be surprised if a BB rifle with a 30 rounder would catch anyone's attention now unless you popped off 30 rounds straight.

Still don't do it, just saying I don't think the look of a 30 rounder in a BB rifle is anything out of the ordinary anymore.

I just use 10 round mags and not worry about it, as I let the experts work on changing the law and all that.
When that 30 round mag pops up on the shelf as legal, BAM! I'll get one.

My 10/30 mags look fun but, meh, they've lost their charm for me a long time ago. I'm looking at those tight groups and I shoot so slow it doesn't matter if someone notices what I got anyway.

But when I get out to my special BLM land, dadadadadadadadadada. That's it and I throw it in the gun case.

[stix213]

I just use 10 round mags and not worry about it, as I let the experts work on changing the law and all that.
When that 30 round mag pops up on the shelf as legal, BAM! I'll get one.

My 10/30 mags look fun but, meh, they've lost their charm for me a long time ago. I'm looking at those tight groups and I shoot so slow it doesn't matter if someone notices what I got anyway.

But when I get out to my special BLM land, dadadadadadadadadada. That's it and I throw it in the gun case.

For my BB'd AR, I stopped using the 10/30's, and started only using 10/20's. The regular 10 rounders are just hard for me to grab in the mag well or I would use those. Now with my Saiga AK variant, there is something seriously wrong with that rifle if it doesn't have the giant banana mag look :p

[Dion]

I just use 10 round mags and not worry about it, as I let the experts work on changing the law and all that.
When that 30 round mag pops up on the shelf as legal, BAM! I'll get one.

That's my take, as well. :D

I also may just bring one to "experiment".

[Cokebottle]

I can't wait for an OF to chime in and prove I'm still a "kiddo" too.
I'm sure my dad could do a number on you....

Yes... WWII vet, E6 served in the Marshall Islands.

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/momndad.jpg

[Cokebottle]

It does not depend on who is observing you, it depends on the firearm. If the firearm is not an a-salt weapon, then it is not an issue.
Those were two different statements, not connected. I should have used a page break.

OP is asking if anyone will create drama. Depending on who is making the observation, they may be less likely to say something if the rifle doesn't "look evil" is what I was intending to say.

That is why my second sentence began with "Legally".
It is also NOT correct that just having a fixed magazine creates a problem. I can install a BB on my RAW (which is a bit silly to do, but it is my right) and then install a high capacity magazine and there is no problem at all. I might get hassled, but it is perfectly legal. If you installed a high capacity magazine on a firearm that is not a RAW and that creates a firearm which is considered an a-salt weapon, then it is illegal.
And if the OP had a RAW, he wouldn't likely be asking the question.

[Cokebottle]

By "tapes", you must be referring to Nixon.
Tricky-**ck didn't have no SD card! :D

[Senna]

Dion, all this time, I had no idea you were into guns :cool:.
Next time I see you riding in STP, I'll see you in a different light :43:
We need to hit up the range sometime :D

Troy

[Cokebottle]

So, you are saying that BB and 30 round magazine is OK?
Only on a registered assault weapon.

High-cap mag + bullet button (or other fixed-mag configuration) creates an AW. A RAW is already an AW recognized by the state.
It doesn't HAVE to have a bullet button to have evil features, but putting a bullet button on it with a high cap doesn't change the fact that it is already a RAW.

Follow the flowchart. If it is a RAW, everything below that point (box #1) is moot. It doesn't matter if it's an AR, AK, listed, off-list, evil features, featureless... it's an AW.

The only issue I have with the flowchart is that it puts SBR and F/A below box #1... but I suppose that since NFA predates California AW laws, there aren't any full-auto or SBR that are registered AW.
I understand. It just sound stupid.
Don't attempt to apply logic to California gun laws.
Why does there need to be a "payoff" for having the magazines? Maybe today you want to take your m4gery with BB to the range, and tomorrow you swap the grip out to make it featureless. Why does anyone need to justify their owning of large capacity magazines?
Or maybe you have friends in a free state and like to go shooting with them every now and then.

When you are in California with a fixed-mag non-RAW, you're limited to 10rds. As soon as you cross into a free state, you can use your 30 rounders.

[todd2968]

Use it at the range with your non AW with bb a featureless rifle if anyone questions tell them to F off. If harassed by LEO lawyer up and don't say a word let your lawyer tell them how wrong they are for harassing you.
I have several 30 round magazines I was issued (military) I have never been harassed for using them.

[Cokebottle]

Use it at the range with your non AW with bb a featureless rifle if anyone questions tell them to F off. If harassed by LEO lawyer up and don't say a word let your lawyer tell them how wrong they are for harassing you.
BB + 11+rds = AW, whether featureless or not.

BB and high-cap is only legal if the gun is a RAW.

[Merc1138]

Use it at the range with your non AW with bb a featureless rifle if anyone questions tell them to F off. If harassed by LEO lawyer up and don't say a word let your lawyer tell them how wrong they are for harassing you.
I have several 30 round magazines I was issued (military) I have never been harassed for using them.

WTF? You just told people to commit a felony.

Unless the rifle is a registered assault weapon, having a fixed magazine(which is what the BB is) with a capacity greater than 10 rounds means you just manufactured an unregistered assault weapon.

Good lord, it's been repeated a dozen times or more in this thread already and people STILL want to get it wrong.

[Desert_Rat]

I'm thinking of stamping some mag bodies "Manufactured 1-1-2035" or "Manufactured the day hell froze over" just to do it.

I would pay you to do that to mine!

[Sniper3142]

I understand some folks like to avoid confrontation. That is fine for them.

Others are worried about getting hassled by regular folks or even LEOs. I'm sure they have their reasons for these worries.

I own ONE 10 round AR15 magazine. I actually have no idea where I got it. I might have come with something else I purchased a long time ago. That mag sits at home.

I only use my 30 or 20 rounders. They are what I purchased with my RAWs back in the day. I use them exclusively (since I only own that one weird 10 rounder) and will not purchase 10 rounders to make anyone feel better.

[tozan]

In any (court) case, the burden of proof is not on you to prove that you owned it prior to 2000.
It's on them to prove you didn't own it prior to 2000.

It might be pretty easy for LEO to prove you didn't have them in state prior if you moved here in 2000 or later... What are you supposed to do then... I guess your just screwed... For that matter anyone with a nice collection of guns is screwed moving here now...

Any Attorneys here want to take a case like that to court here... Lets go after the right to bring in FA weapons owned for 30 years and now they can not move with you...

[Reductio]

FYI, the law says "possessed" prior to 2000, nothing about being a resident... As in the desert shoot that you brought 30rd mags to back in '95,..

[Cokebottle]

FYI, the law says "possessed" prior to 2000, nothing about being a resident... As in the desert shoot that you brought 30rd mags to back in '95,..
Bingo.

Uncle Bob came to visit in 1999 and brought his Glock for you to check out, both you and Bob possessed those magazines prior to the ban.

Either of you could today legally bring them back into California, but once they are here, you could not give them back to him.

[tozan]

FYI, the law says "possessed" prior to 2000, nothing about being a resident... As in the desert shoot that you brought 30rd mags to back in '95,..

I thought it said possessed in Calif prior to 2000?

[Reductio]

I thought it said possessed in Calif prior to 2000?

Yes, but do you not possess anything when you are in a state other than the one you home is in? If you go to NV with you camera, you still possess it while you're out of state.

[Jaxpire]

Only problem I see out of all this is the range saying: "My property. My Rules, GTFO". Call a head and see if your rage allows 30rd mags.

[Etihtsarom]

Like Merc said many times, the range "normally shouldn't" give a rats ***** about your usage, they just want every one to be safe. The range that doesn't know enough and gets all worked up about you using a 30rd mag in your RAW in a legal and safe manner is the range that you should stay away from any how. So that's NOT the problem. The problem is being confused and mixed up in between 2 categories of people:
1. People with RAW, or featureless rifles: Should they go ahead and use those mags (even though they legally can) b/c the potential exists that some uninformed RO, LEO, or nosy shooter brings unwanted attention to said usage? The risk here is small: just a hassle to prove your legitimacy.
2. People with AR's that have a BB: <---well they CAN break the law and stuff that mag in there b/c at first glance, it's not easy to tell whether that AR is a RAW, nor is it possible to tell if the shooter legally owned that mag. But all that info can be dug up once they check to see if your AR is a RAW, and the risk here is huge: you Broke the law, and when you're caught, you're SOL. So these folks are better off not doing that ANYwhere. Yes, Rangers DO pull up and check out your tish unexpectedly in the middle of the dessert and you may not have enough time to put that mag away.

[CSACANNONEER]

Only problem I see out of all this is the range saying: "My property. My Rules, GTFO". Call a head and see if your rage allows 30rd mags.

I've been to more than a couple ranges in Ca and several other states as well but, I've never seen or heard of any range which had a mag capacity limit. Of course, in states where possession of +10 or +15 round mags is illegal, I could see ranges having a problem with illegal magazines. Here in Ca, we don't have laws as restrictive as NJ, HI, DC, etc. so, I find it hard to believe that any range would care.