PDA

View Full Version : 922(r) and mag lock button not being legal?


jeep7081
10-21-2010, 9:54 PM
I went to a gun store today. Looking at the XD9. I saw he had a Saiga rifle for sale. It was a 308. We got on the subject I had the 7.62x39 rifle. I told him I had replaced the stock, bullet guide, handguards. The owner asked if I put a pistol grip on? I told him, I did.

He said the rifle wasn't now legal in California. He said the mag lock must always be on "in". I said it was. When transporting, I had a blank magazine in. He asked if it was a 10rd? I said yes. He told me the only time the magazine was to be removed was to clean the gun, not to load/reload ammo. So, as long as I never removed the magazine, I was legal. Once I removed the magazine for anything but to clean the rifle, it was illegal. He showed me some "pie chart". I looked to see who made it (DOJ, etc) and didn't see anything. Is he correct?

Cokebottle
10-21-2010, 10:01 PM
He said the rifle wasn't now legal in California. He said the mag lock must always be on "in". I said it was. When transporting, I had a blank magazine in. He asked if it was a 10rd? I said yes. He told me the only time the magazine was to be removed was to clean the gun, not to load/reload ammo. So, as long as I never removed the magazine, I was legal. Once I removed the magazine for anything but to clean the rifle, it was illegal. He showed me some "pie chart". I looked to see who made it (DOJ, etc) and didn't see anything. Is he correct?
FUD

And it's nothing to do with 922(r). ATF doesn't give a damn about assault weapons anymore. It's SB23.

And where he is confused is the definition of "detachable".
He, and many other gun store employees and DOJ drones are confusing "attachable" with "detachable".
"Attachable" is legal. That is what you have when the magazine is not in the magwell.
Detachable is not legal. With the maglock in place, the magazine is not "detachable" without the use of a tool.

Supporting his FUD is his statement that it's only legal to remove the magazine for cleaning. That's complete BS. An assault weapon is an assault weapon, whether the intent is for reloading or for cleaning.


Now, on the "maglock" type... there are a couple of types of locks.
The "bullet button" lock or other lock that allows the magazine to be dropped by inserting a tool is perfectly legal.
I don't know if one is available for the AK, but for the AR, the original P50 maglock was nothing more than a setscrew that prevented you from depressing the mag release. That particular type may never be loosened while the upper is attached or it will create a "detachable" magazine situation.

five.five-six
10-21-2010, 10:01 PM
oh joy, it's Fuday

adding American parts does not make a rifle 922 compliant, it's replacing foreign parts that does the trick


here is a graphic to describe 922r enforcement, I've heard of it , but not sure I believe it

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/man_bear_pig.jpg

and a graphical representation of He said the mag lock must always be on "in".

http://i41.tinypic.com/4uc1lf.jpg

nick
10-21-2010, 10:02 PM
He's not correct in that the magazine cannot be removed for, say, loading. Just to make sure, which maglock do you use?

Librarian
10-21-2010, 10:04 PM
Pie chart?

No, if what you posted accurately explains what you were told, you were told incorrectly.

It's a common misconception, though.

A semi-auto removable-magazine rifle, equipped with a suitable mag-lock (typically a 'bullet button' for ARs, but there are others), IS NOT CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE - where 'detachable magazine' has a specific legal definition (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Non_detachable_magazines).Detachable magazine is defined in the California Code of Regulations as "any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool."

The confusion usually is the use of 'detachable' in the common sense - the magazine comes out of the mag well, it must be detachable - , not the legal one.

jeep7081
10-21-2010, 10:08 PM
He's not correct in that the magazine cannot be removed for, say, loading. Just to make sure, which maglock do you use?

"Bullet Button" the actual name.

Pie chart?

No, if what you posted accurately explains what you were told, you were told incorrectly.

It's a common misconception, though.

A semi-auto removable-magazine rifle, equipped with a suitable mag-lock (typically a 'bullet button' for ARs, but there are others), IS NOT CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE - where 'detachable magazine' has a specific legal definition (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Non_detachable_magazines).

The confusion usually is the use of 'detachable' in the common sense - the magazine comes out of the mag well, it must be detachable - , not the legal one.

It was. The only thing not added was his employee asking if I had kids. I said yes. He asked if I had a safe? I said my child was 20yr! He said, oh. You looked younger. And, the employee shacking his head as if his boss/owner was right. Now, you were told it all :)

FUD

And it's nothing to do with 922(r). ATF doesn't give a damn about assault weapons anymore. It's SB23.

And where he is confused is the definition of "detachable".
He, and many other gun store employees and DOJ drones are confusing "attachable" with "detachable".
"Attachable" is legal. That is what you have when the magazine is not in the magwell.
Detachable is not legal. With the maglock in place, the magazine is not "detachable" without the use of a tool.

Supporting his FUD is his statement that it's only legal to remove the magazine for cleaning. That's complete BS. An assault weapon is an assault weapon, whether the intent is for reloading or for cleaning.


Now, on the "maglock" type... there are a couple of types of locks.
The "bullet button" lock or other lock that allows the magazine to be dropped by inserting a tool is perfectly legal.
I don't know if one is available for the AK, but for the AR, the original P50 maglock was nothing more than a setscrew that prevented you from depressing the mag release. That particular type may never be loosened while the upper is attached or it will create a "detachable" magazine situation.

I have actually "Bullet Button". I told the owner that I called BB and asked the guy who answered if it was legal to remove a mag at a shooting range and he said yes. The owner just walked away.

I also found this...Which backs what I thought and what you guys are saying.
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf

dieselpower
10-21-2010, 10:12 PM
At any time in civilization if a word had a more clearing meaning I don't know of it.


Is he correct?

NO.

jeep7081
10-21-2010, 10:14 PM
At any time in civilization if a word had a more clearing meaning I don't know of it.




NO.

I didn't think so, and even told him I would make this post on CalGuns, he laughed. Said I should.

I did leave without buying from him the XD9 and went else where and bought it. So, I am the new owner of a XD9 :)

Josh3239
10-21-2010, 11:21 PM
:rofl2: So basically he told you that you can create an illegal AW for cleaning purposes!?! That is too damn funny! Anyways, tonight I think I am gonna remove my raddlock and throw a lightning link in my AR... for cleaning purposes of course. I might even put on a shoulder thing that goes up!

On a serious note, which gun store genius is this?

I went to a gun store today. Looking at the XD9. I saw he had a Saiga rifle for sale. It was a 308. We got on the subject I had the 7.62x39 rifle. I told him I had replaced the stock, bullet guide, handguards. The owner asked if I put a pistol grip on? I told him, I did.

He said the rifle wasn't now legal in California. He said the mag lock must always be on "in". I said it was. When transporting, I had a blank magazine in. He asked if it was a 10rd? I said yes. He told me the only time the magazine was to be removed was to clean the gun, not to load/reload ammo. So, as long as I never removed the magazine, I was legal. Once I removed the magazine for anything but to clean the rifle, it was illegal. He showed me some "pie chart". I looked to see who made it (DOJ, etc) and didn't see anything. Is he correct?

IsaacGlass
10-21-2010, 11:27 PM
I didn't think so, and even told him I would make this post on CalGuns, he laughed. Said I should.

I did leave without buying from him the XD9 and went else where and bought it. So, I am the new owner of a XD9 :)

Congrats on the new XD9. Which shop was this?

WTSGDYBBR
10-21-2010, 11:34 PM
I laugh harder every time I read these threads.

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 5:41 AM
:rofl2: So basically he told you that you can create an illegal AW for cleaning purposes!?! That is too damn funny! Anyways, tonight I think I am gonna remove my raddlock and throw a lightning link in my AR... for cleaning purposes of course. I might even put on a shoulder thing that goes up!

On a serious note, which gun store genius is this?

Something "shooters" in Apple Valley. I left after. No sale from me.

valleyrat
10-22-2010, 5:43 AM
Dont go back there, they are idiots. People, we need to stop patronizing stores that dont get it. Money talks...

Deadon
10-22-2010, 6:54 AM
Just guns in Sacramento told me the same thing. A buddy thats a cop told me the same also.
I sure wish someone would teach these guys whats really going on!

Don29palms
10-22-2010, 6:57 AM
Victor Valley Shooters?

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 7:18 AM
Victor Valley Shooters?

Yep. That's them.

Don29palms
10-22-2010, 7:22 AM
California is bad enough. I hate it when the people that should know what the laws are don't. For FFL people it will only hurt their sales.

Mail Clerk
10-22-2010, 7:28 AM
I went to a gun store today. Looking at the XD9. I saw he had a Saiga rifle for sale. It was a 308. We got on the subject I had the 7.62x39 rifle. I told him I had replaced the stock, bullet guide, handguards. The owner asked if I put a pistol grip on? I told him, I did.

He said the rifle wasn't now legal in California. He said the mag lock must always be on "in". I said it was. When transporting, I had a blank magazine in. He asked if it was a 10rd? I said yes. He told me the only time the magazine was to be removed was to clean the gun, not to load/reload ammo. So, as long as I never removed the magazine, I was legal. Once I removed the magazine for anything but to clean the rifle, it was illegal. He showed me some "pie chart". I looked to see who made it (DOJ, etc) and didn't see anything. Is he correct?

jeep7081,

By your decription your only comliant when you transport the rifle to and from the range. Technically if you remove it during your range shoot your only illegal during your shoot out. Be aware of the range master. They might make a big eal with that.

Mail Clerk

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 7:45 AM
jeep7081,

By your decription your only comliant when you transport the rifle to and from the range. Technically if you remove it during your range shoot your only illegal during your shoot out. Be aware of the range master. They might make a big eal with that.

Mail Clerk

What is "shoot out". Sorry newbie here.

Don29palms
10-22-2010, 7:54 AM
Can you remove your magazine without using a tool of any sort?

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 7:56 AM
Can you remove your magazine without using a tool of any sort?

No. I have "Bullet Button". The brand name. So, a tool or bullet is required.

lanwarrior
10-22-2010, 7:56 AM
jeep7081,

By your decription your only comliant when you transport the rifle to and from the range. Technically if you remove it during your range shoot your only illegal during your shoot out. Be aware of the range master. They might make a big eal with that.

Mail Clerk

Do you have an experience when this happen and which range was it?

I went to Angeles a while back and when the shooting stopped (so we all can change the target), one of ASR personnel was walking around to make sure everyone remove the magazine during this time. He saw me taking the mag out of my AR-15 (with BB) using a bullet and said nothing.

SJgunguy24
10-22-2010, 7:58 AM
What is "shoot out". Sorry newbie here.

Not sure what he ment either but maybe during cease fire if the mag is left out they might cry about it.

At one shop they told a guy he can't bring his own handguns from Colorado. When I told them they were wrong they told me I had no idea what I was talking about. When I asked them to pull up the DOJ website so I could show them it's perfectly legal I was asked to leave.
They are no better then LCAV or the Brady bunch, when confronted with the truth their fingers go in the ears and "LALALALALA I can't hear you, your
wrong, your stupid, now leave."

They even told a guy to bring in his gun because THEY had to send it to Taurus for service, it was illegal for him (a non FFL) to ship a gun to the manufacturer.

dieselpower
10-22-2010, 8:00 AM
When you meet these people just calmly explain.
1) Nowhere in the law does it make an exception for cleaning. Disassembly is disassembly You need to use a tool.
2) The law on detachable magazine is referring to the FIREARM not the "kind" of magazine. A firearm with a magazine lock LACKS THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT whether it has a magazine in it or nor. You don't even need to own a magazine....




To show them one step farther, lets say I invent a MAGAZINE that needs a tool to be detached from a firearm. Does this met the AW law....Yes, only if that magazine is NEVER EVER removed, because once it is removed the firearm is an AW. With a magazine lock on the firearm the FIREARM without a magazine still can not accept a magazine that is readily detachable.

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 8:03 AM
I might print this and bring it with me to ranges.
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 8:06 AM
When you meet these people just calmly explain.
1) Nowhere in the law does it make an exception for cleaning. Disassembly is disassembly You need to use a tool.
2) The law on detachable magazine is referring to the FIREARM not the "kind" of magazine. A firearm with a magazine lock LACKS THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT whether it has a magazine in it or nor. You don't even need to own a magazine....




To show them one step farther, lets say I invent a MAGAZINE that needs a tool to be detached from a firearm. Does this met the AW law....Yes, only if that magazine is NEVER EVER removed, because once it is removed the firearm is an AW. With a magazine lock on the firearm the FIREARM without a magazine still can not accept a magazine that is readily detachable.

So, to put a new mag in loaded is a violation? Because, your removing the mag? Did I follow?

dieselpower
10-22-2010, 8:21 AM
So, to put a new mag in loaded is a violation? Because, your removing the mag? Did I follow?

NO, you did not follow.

If your AK has a magazine lock on it, you dont need a magazine to be legal.
If your AK has a magazine lock on it, you can swap an empty magazine for a full one or top load.
If your AK has a magazine lock on it, the firearm itself is compliance with the law. Who what when where and how a magazine is inserted doesn't matter AS LONG AS IT TAKES A TOOL TO REMOVE IT.
The only thing that matters is it must be a 10rd capacity magazine or less WHEN INSERTED. I can have a 30rd magazine with the firearm...I just can't insert it or I have manufactured an AW.

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 8:32 AM
NO, you did not follow.

If your AK has a magazine lock on it, you dont need a magazine to be legal.
If your AK has a magazine lock on it, you can swap an empty magazine for a full one or top load.
If your AK has a magazine lock on it, the firearm itself is compliance with the law. Who what when where and how a magazine is inserted doesn't matter AS LONG AS IT TAKES A TOOL TO REMOVE IT.
The only thing that matters is it must be a 10rd capacity magazine or less WHEN INSERTED. I can have a 30rd magazine with the firearm...I just can't insert it or I have manufactured an AW.

Fair enough :D

Cokebottle
10-22-2010, 9:26 AM
By your decription your only comliant when you transport the rifle to and from the range. Technically if you remove it during your range shoot your only illegal during your shoot out. Be aware of the range master. They might make a big eal with that.
:confused: :confused:
A bullet-button equipped gun is NEVER illegal with the magazine removed.
Some feel that it is wise to transport the gun with an empty mag inserted, simply because it's easier to show an officer that it is fixed, but it is not illegal.

Bug Splat
10-22-2010, 9:50 AM
here is a graphic to describe 922r enforcement, I've heard of it , but not sure I believe it

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/man_bear_pig.jpg

]

HAHAHA :rofl2:

This made my morning. I'd love to see evidence of someone being stopped for 922r. I bet only 1 out of 500 officers even knows what 922r is and those that do know don't care.

bigthaiboy
10-22-2010, 10:54 AM
There was a time long, long ago...... before the introduction of the bullet button, that some people believed a fixed magazine had to be permanent, even though SB23 doesn't specify "permanent". This explains guns like the Bushmaster Carbon 15. The dealer at Shooters just hasn't kept up with the progress we've made in CA.

Cyc Wid It
10-22-2010, 11:13 AM
HAHAHA :rofl2:

This made my morning. I'd love to see evidence of someone being stopped for 922r. I bet only 1 out of 500 officers even knows what 922r is and those that do know don't care.

While probably true, do you want to be that guy? No thanks.

Bug Splat
10-22-2010, 11:13 AM
There was a time long, long ago...... before the introduction of the bullet button, that some people believed a fixed magazine had to be permanent, even though SB23 doesn't specify "permanent". This explains guns like the Bushmaster Carbon 15. The dealer at Shooters just hasn't kept up with the progress we've made in CA.

I still have my FAB-10 :D.

Course its a 50BMG receiver now but its still a FAB-10. They laughed at me. they alll laughed at me but who is laughing now :43:

IsaacGlass
10-22-2010, 11:55 AM
Victor Valley Shooters?

Thanks. Noted!

B Strong
10-22-2010, 4:31 PM
I went to a gun store today. Looking at the XD9. I saw he had a Saiga rifle for sale. It was a 308. We got on the subject I had the 7.62x39 rifle. I told him I had replaced the stock, bullet guide, handguards. The owner asked if I put a pistol grip on? I told him, I did.

He said the rifle wasn't now legal in California. He said the mag lock must always be on "in". I said it was. When transporting, I had a blank magazine in. He asked if it was a 10rd? I said yes. He told me the only time the magazine was to be removed was to clean the gun, not to load/reload ammo. So, as long as I never removed the magazine, I was legal. Once I removed the magazine for anything but to clean the rifle, it was illegal. He showed me some "pie chart". I looked to see who made it (DOJ, etc) and didn't see anything. Is he correct?

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

jeep7081
10-22-2010, 4:43 PM
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

THAT'S THE FLOW CHART! With out the "Cal Guns". I am pissed I didn't have my reading glasses that day (did right now though) as he lied on what it said. WOW! :mad:

Thanks for the post.

stix213
10-22-2010, 4:52 PM
At least you learned to never believe any legal advice from that gun store ever again.

stix213
10-22-2010, 4:55 PM
:confused: :confused:
A bullet-button equipped gun is NEVER illegal with the magazine removed.
Some feel that it is wise to transport the gun with an empty mag inserted, simply because it's easier to show an officer that it is fixed, but it is not illegal.

^^^^ I usually transport like this for this reason. Its easier to explain to an uninformed officer that your rifle is in a fixed mag configuration when there is actually a mag fixed in place. You have to get into a lot more explaining to get into why a fixed magazine rifle doesn't have to have a magazine fixed in place.

Cokebottle
10-22-2010, 6:06 PM
HAHAHA :rofl2:

This made my morning. I'd love to see evidence of someone being stopped for 922r. I bet only 1 out of 500 officers even knows what 922r is and those that do know don't care.
It was mentioned by one of the senior/vet/addict members that 922(r) only applies to manufacturing.
It is a concern for those who build their own AKs from parts kits, but it is not an issue for a purchased gun.

True or not, I'm not 100% sure.... 922(r) is pretty lengthy and I haven't taken the time to go through it to verify since it is not a concern for me. My ARs aren't a problem, and if I get an AK, it will likely be a kit build, so it will definitely apply.

If I decide to go with a converted Saiga, then I'll do the homework.

Cokebottle
10-22-2010, 6:08 PM
^^^^ I usually transport like this for this reason. Its easier to explain to an uninformed officer that your rifle is in a fixed mag configuration when there is actually a mag fixed in place. You have to get into a lot more explaining to get into why a fixed magazine rifle doesn't have to have a magazine fixed in place.
Exactly.

"Here, let me attach this magazine so I can show you it is not detachable"
That'll draw an eyeroll or two.

Mail Clerk
10-22-2010, 6:44 PM
Do you have an experience when this happen and which range was it?

I went to Angeles a while back and when the shooting stopped (so we all can change the target), one of ASR personnel was walking around to make sure everyone remove the magazine during this time. He saw me taking the mag out of my AR-15 (with BB) using a bullet and said nothing.

lanwarrior,

I was only making a generalization. I do know at some ranges has different rules. Example....Angeles has different rules compared to let's say Inland Fish and Game and much different from my old favorite... San Gabriel Valley Gun Club (long gone).

Mail Clerk

furman
10-23-2010, 8:44 AM
It's been mentioned in other threads - I carry a color copy of the flowchart, my DROS receipt, store receipt, and the OCSO memo in my rifle case. Makes clarification easy, partic the flowchart. I also keep an empty 10 rd mag in the rifle, again for easy demo. "go ahead, see if it works."

Swatter911
10-23-2010, 3:47 PM
Stay away from Victor Valley Shooters. Terrible gun store that gives even worse legal advice.

Go to Drew's.