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View Full Version : AR-10 BEST "BANG" FOR THE BUCK?


AWARCORP
10-19-2010, 1:45 PM
Lets say money is not a factor...

What CA legal AR-10/ (308 wannabe) is most accurate out of the box?

I had my heart set on a LWRC REPR, then persuaded to go GAPrecision, also like LMT and DD. One day I will own all three (wishful thinking) but for now I want a range queen that is accurate and reliable. Already own a DI carbine so open to the gas piston.

Please help.

EROCO
10-19-2010, 2:13 PM
How about the Rock River Arms Varmint A4 with the 26" bull stainless barrel?

I want one myself, one day perhaps..

Jpach
10-19-2010, 2:16 PM
Go with the LMT. You can find them for ~~2300 on gunbroker and they are damn accurate, very reliable, have a quick change barrel, and are sexy as hell. Thats why I got one.

IsaacGlass
10-19-2010, 2:21 PM
DD doesnt make a AR-10, but they do make a rail system for the AR-10 platform.

http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/browse&category=railsystems_7.62{ar10}literails (http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/browse&category=railsystems_7.62%7Bar10%7Dliterails)

I would go for the 3 L's : LaRue, LMT and LWRC in that order.

tacticalcity
10-19-2010, 2:43 PM
It is not like there is a specific model, brand, etc. that you need to look for. While some brands do have a reputation for quality, the thing you have to pay closest attention to are the specs. Pretty much the same rules apply as choosing an AR15.


THE BARREL?

- How long is the barrel? Usually longer is better where accuracy is concerned, but at some point weight outweighs the accuracy benefits. So it depends on what you really intend to do with it? Hunt? Keep it 20" or less. Bench rest only? Get it as long as you want.

- How thick is the barrel? Thickness is meant to help prevent the barrel from changing shape as it heats up, which negatively impacts accuracy. This is not much of a problem for your first few shots. The more shots you take in a single training session, the more the barrel changes shape and zero begins to shift. However, weight becomes an issue very quickly. A 24" bull barrel is not a very practical hunting rifle. It weighs too much to lug around all day.

- Is the barrel fluted? Fluting is designed to cool the barrel down faster by circulating air through the flutes. It is sort of the reverse approach to the above. A fluted bull barrel weighs less than a standard bull barrel and yet arguably fights the heat just as effectively.

- What material is the barrel made out of out? Stainless steel is the easiest to machine and thus will have the most perfect rifling and thus be the most accurate as a rule of thumb. However this barrel will have a much shorter life span. Chrome-moly basic barrel would be the next most accurate based on perfection of rifling alone but twist rate, which I'll cover next plays a huge role. A chrome-lined chrome-moly barrel is the least accurate based on riffling alone (not taking into account twist-rate) because that lining causes imperfections in the rifling.

- Twist rate. I am not sure what numbers are best for the .308 round. So I will use numbers for a 5.56mm AR to demonstrate my point. Bear in mind the numbers will be much higher on a .308 to stabalize the round. Twist rate playes a HUGE role in accuracy. The smaller the second number the faster the twist rate. Meaning it spins the bullet faster, and thus is capable of stabalizing heavier match grade ammunition. A cheap AR15 has a 1-9 chrome-moly barrel. An expensive AR15 usually has either a 1-8 stainless steel barrel or a 1-7 chrome-lined barrel. All 3 do a decent job stabalizing cheap 5.56mm 55 grain ammo. The 1-8 and 1-7 twist rate barrels to a much better job stabalizing match grade ammunition. The same rule applies to .308 ARs, only the numbers are higher since the .308 round weighs more. I wish I had the exact numbers, but somebody else can cover that who knows more about it.

THE AMMO?

- Are you using the right ammo for your chamber size? Are you choosing the right ammo weight for the twist rate of your rifle? Are you shooting the really expensive match grade stuff or the cheapest stuff on the shelf? All this plays a HUGE role.

THE TRIGGER?

- Odds are your rifle is going to come with a military trigger that from a pure accuracy standpoint, is terrible. This is because it is the safest trigger for a run and gun rifle. If accuracy is all you care about, plan on spending $200+ on a match grade trigger the is light as a feather and breaks like glass. It is NOT going to come standard on an out of the box rifle.

THE RECEIVER?

- Does it have feed ramps? Often called M4 feed ramps, these indentations in the barrel and on the receiver help feed the ammunition into the chamber without jamming.

IS IT IN SPEC?

- Brands like Noveske, LMT, WhiteOak, and so forth are all known for building in-spec parts. They cost a fortune, because a ton of effort goes into making them precise. Less expensive brands might be out of spec. This can effect accuracy, and most definately can effect reliability. It doesn't matter how accurate it is when it goes bang, if it routinely fails to go bang.

OTHER CONCERNS?

- There are many of other smaller considerations to think about. But the big ones are mentioned above.

BUILD IT YOURSELF?

- Odds are that if you do your homework you could build a much better rifle by buying the individual parts yourself. This is a great option for people on a budget. Take your time. Limit yourself to one part a month and get the best part you can afford that month? Don't have enough this month for a really great barrel? No problem, you do have enough for a really great lower parts kit, or even just a buffer spring. Don't know how to assemble the upper yourself? No worries. There has got to be a certified gunsmith in your area who will do it for under $100. I found one two in my area withing 15 minutes of me. Both of which have built hundreds of rifles, some for well known competition shooters, local SWAT teams and so on. Guys you can really trust to build it right. I did this with one my AR15s and it turned out pretty amazing. No way could I afford to buy it out right. But by buying it one part at a time as I could afford it, I was able to meet my obligations while building the rifle of my dreams.

AWARCORP
10-19-2010, 3:07 PM
Thank you tacticalcity, very helpful.
Going with IsaccGlass advice and will investigate more with LMT. Initial research shows that LMT's main barrel is 1:10 twist and only 16 inches?? If so, anyone have experience with other heavy barrels I can swap out with a lower twist rate? I have an AR 15 with a 1:9 and a 1:7. Tactical City, do you have any links?

AWARCORP
10-19-2010, 5:54 PM
What about the LRP-07 from JP Enterprises? Anyone have any experience with this company? Is this worth a new thread? Not finding much in Calguns.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
10-19-2010, 6:36 PM
Noveske Lower Armalite upper. Might not be the best. But it's a good Combo.

csterl
10-20-2010, 8:17 AM
Larue OBR for great precision or LMT MWS (my recommendation) for an all around purely sexy rifle! :D

Jpach
10-20-2010, 12:05 PM
Thank you tacticalcity, very helpful.
Going with IsaccGlass advice and will investigate more with LMT. Initial research shows that LMT's main barrel is 1:10 twist and only 16 inches?? If so, anyone have experience with other heavy barrels I can swap out with a lower twist rate? I have an AR 15 with a 1:9 and a 1:7. Tactical City, do you have any links?

Longer barrels will come out, and what is the problem with 1-10 twist? So far most of the LMT 308s have done great with 175-178gr bullets (which is what you should be shooting if you are going long range....and 155 scenars).

Also, barrels in different calibers such as .260 and .243 will be released relatively soon too.

As for the barrel being only 16", it is plenty for all practical purposes and ranges. Ive taken mine out to 700 yards with no problem with the 168 amax.


PS

Shorter barrels theoretically have the edge in accuracy since they are stiffer than longer barrels.

Nathan Krynn
10-20-2010, 12:14 PM
1/9 and 1/7 is for AR-15's with a .223.

AR-10's shoot a .308 and have a 1/10 or 1/12 typically.

1/10 being preferred by most, although some like the slower twist like 1/12. It all depends on the bullets you will shoot just like an AR-15.

You really want bang for your buck in .308? Get one of my lowers, complete DPMS LR-308 upper, stock of your choice, .308 buffer and spring (carbine or rifle depending on stock), LR-308 LPK, bullet button, Pmag. You can do this for a little over a grand total even with dros, someone just had a post on this.

Scott Connors
10-20-2010, 12:27 PM
The Brits use the LMT as the L129A1. It fills what we call the Designated Marksman role. It uses a 16" blackened stainless steel barrel with an 11.25" twist, which many believe is optimal for bullet weights between 168gr and 175gr. They have obtained excellent results out to 800m, even with Radway Green ball. LMT is not currently offering this barrel to civilian purchasers, but they are planning to do so once British military orders are fulfilled.

If I could afford a .308 AR platform at this time, this is the one I'd buy. Accurate, reliable (more so than the M110 SASS? don't know) relatively long-range capability, and carbine handling: what's not to like?

thedonger
10-20-2010, 12:28 PM
1/9 and 1/7 is for AR-15's with a .223.

AR-10's shoot a .308 and have a 1/10 or 1/12 typically.

1/10 being preferred by most, although some like the slower twist like 1/12. It all depends on the bullets you will shoot just like an AR-15.

You really want bang for your buck in .308? Get one of my lowers, complete DPMS LR-308 upper, stock of your choice, .308 buffer and spring (carbine or rifle depending on stock), LR-308 LPK, bullet button, Pmag. You can do this for a little over a grand total even with dros, someone just had a post on this.

I don't see them listed on your web site?

Nathan Krynn
10-20-2010, 1:20 PM
They are there. Here is a link.

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/products.php?pid=41#images/490_345-308-1.jpg

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/images/490_345-308-1.jpg

Call me instead of ordering on the web and give your calguns screen name and get a discount too.

ronas
10-28-2010, 6:39 AM
I have the Larue OBR with 16" barrel and have no complaints. The rifle is way more accurate than I am.

captbilly
10-28-2010, 10:06 AM
There is a very good article written by a guy who shoots ARs in service rifle competitions. His contention is that due to the inherently accurate design of the AR, that the barrel is really the only thing that enters into the equation for accuracy. Of course a well fitted stock, a light crisp trigger, and excellent sights allow the shooter to get the best accuracy out of the rifle but it is really almost entirely the barrel that determines the ultimate accuracy capability of an AR. If you want to do some very fine tuning you can recrown the barrel from time to time if it gets nicked, or if it wasn't made with a target crown in the first place. There are some AR shooters who swear by truing the bolt face to the chamber/barrel, but the returns are small.

All the other stuff, even things like extended feed ramps, quad rails, hand grips, special stocks, or what have you, may be nice things to have but they won't generally have any effect on how well the gun puts bullets on the target.

You absolutely have to have a free float tube. This keeps pressure from the handguard from effecting the barrel, so when you are resting the gun on a sandbag or bipod the force doesn't transfer to the barrel and bend it (slightly and only while the pressure is applied, but it will change the aim point).

A target trigger is a huge benefit to the shooter in allowing him/her to apply a minimum of pressure and a known amount of pressure each time you fire.

A really good, stable, clear, repeatable and linear adjusting scope is as important, not in the absolute accuracy of the gun itself but in allowing the shooter to know that the crosshairs are really in the right place every time (assuming you properly calculated the wind drift, spin drift, Coriolis drift, and bullet drop. If a 1 MOA (or better yet a 1Mil) adjustment isn't really 1 MOA then your calculations become useless. And of course if the scope doesn't return to zero when you set it back to zero then you are never going to really know what you are aiming at.

There may well be specialized AR builders or tuners that build rifles with Geiselle triggers and perfectly faced bolts, and put Kreiger barrels on them (or one of those new carbon fiber barrels from ABS), but there is nothing that you couldn't quite easily build yourself that couldn't match some particular model that someone makes.

Deadon
10-28-2010, 10:55 AM
I just built my JD. It came in at 12lbs. I figure I can do a bit of hunting and bench shooting.
JD Mid section, 550.00
DPMS SASS 18in barrel, 229.99
DPMS lower parts kit, 60.00
Vltor EMOD Mil-Spec .308 CAR Stock Kit, 200.00
DPMS gas block, 60.00
Gas tube, 10.00
Custom CF handguard, 80.00
Brake, 100.00
DPMS forward assist, dust cover, 30.00
DPMS bolt, 200.00
UTG BiPod, 25.00
JARD Trigger, 150.00
$1694.99
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/tiller2nv/DSC_0152.jpg

problemchild
10-28-2010, 11:00 AM
You forgot the scope and mount......$$$$


I just built my JD. It came in at 12lbs. I figure I can do a bit of hunting and bench shooting.
JD Mid section, 550.00
DPMS SASS 18in barrel, 229.99
DPMS lower parts kit, 60.00
Vltor EMOD Mil-Spec .308 CAR Stock Kit, 200.00
DPMS gas block, 60.00
Gas tube, 10.00
Custom CF handguard, 80.00
Brake, 100.00
DPMS forward assist, dust cover, 30.00
DPMS bolt, 200.00
UTG BiPod, 25.00
JARD Trigger, 150.00
$1694.99
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/tiller2nv/DSC_0152.jpg

problemchild
10-28-2010, 11:02 AM
http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/LMT/acog/_U6L0310.jpg
http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/LMT/_U6L0488b.jpg

keson
10-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Larue OBR and LMT MWS



http://www.michaelkdickson.com/webjunk/LMT/_U6L0488b.jpg

Your avatar shows the identity of your dog :D

Deadon
10-28-2010, 12:54 PM
You forgot the scope and mount......$$$$

Well he didnt ask for optics:)

BlackViper
10-28-2010, 2:22 PM
PWS is coming out with their AR-10 and it's awesome, their MK2* series rifles:
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=15

Great price, weight, and quality.