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View Full Version : Arizona Constitutional Carry signed today.


audiophil2
04-16-2010, 3:32 PM
Thank you Gov. Brewer!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100416/ap_on_re_us/us_xgr_concealed_weapons_arizona


"I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well," Brewer said in a statement.

WARNING: DO NOT CCW IN ARIZONA WITHOUT A PERMIT UNTIL THE LAW TAKES EFFECT IN LATE AUGUST/SEPTEMBER.

Roadrunner
04-16-2010, 3:35 PM
Cool, discouraging illegal aliens and letting go of the grip on the second amendment all in one week. Now, if we can only get our politicians to do the same thing.

warbird
04-16-2010, 3:37 PM
Can we borrow Brewer for a year to help us get our rights back?

Big Jake
04-16-2010, 3:38 PM
Cool, discouraging illegal aliens and letting go of the grip on the second amendment all in one week. Now, if we can only get our politicians to do the same thing.

Don't hold your breath! :mad:

Ding126
04-16-2010, 3:38 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.
But I do admire the spirit of the law.

We will have to see how this plays out

bwiese
04-16-2010, 3:40 PM
Do NOT act on this yet...

"The bill she signed Friday afternoon takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends. That likely will put the effective date in July or August."

Aleksandr Mravinsky
04-16-2010, 3:47 PM
"The bill she signed Friday afternoon takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends. That likely will put the effective date in July or August."

I notice that there hasn't been as much coverage of this in the mainstream media as there was of the Florida shall-issue. I guess they learned their lesson that more guns does not mean "OK Corral" fighting. Also, did anybody else notice that the OK Corral happened in a city that banned carry of even a bowie knife?

The Director
04-16-2010, 3:50 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then?

Reciprocity with other states when traveling.

The Director
04-16-2010, 3:51 PM
Also, did anybody else notice that the OK Corral happened in a city that banned carry of even a bowie knife?

Did anyone else notice that the OK Corral shooting happened in Arizona?:eek::p

CHS
04-16-2010, 3:58 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then?


Reciprocity.

I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.

The Right states "Keep and BEAR arms" and "Shall not be infringed".

If you don't have to have basic training to BUY (keep) a gun, why should you need one for carrying (bear) a gun?

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 4:01 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.
But I do admire the spirit of the law.

We will have to see how this plays out

1. Avoid extra step when buying a gun at an FFL.
2. CCW reciprocity in states that honor AZ permit.
3. Many face to face sellers will only sell to permit holders.
4. CCW permit still required to enter certain business' that serve alcohol.

I like buying guns from private sellers. No FFL fees, no background checks, no paperwork, no registration, and no inconvenient business hours so #3 is my reason for considering renewal in 4 years.

It is perfectly legal for a non-prohibited person to openly carry a loaded pistol in Arizona. I do not think anyone needs additional training on how to pull a pistol out of a holster, pocket, purse, etc. Arizona, Alaska, and Vermont think the same way.

ETA: Georgia, Washington, and Pennsylvania do not require training for a CCW.
About 29 states do not require any training for openly carrying a gun including California.

barthel
04-16-2010, 4:06 PM
Ah, to live in America. Arizona is looking more and more appealing every day!

cineski
04-16-2010, 4:06 PM
The border's just 5 hours from here.....:seeya:

videogameland
04-16-2010, 4:20 PM
So if I buy a handgun in CA, I may have it unloaded, locked, and stored in my trunk, and as soon as I am in Arizona, I can open my trunk, unlock my handgun, and load it, and walk around with it concealed in my holster legally?

Or does the gun have to be bought in Arizona? Anyone know?

vantec08
04-16-2010, 4:36 PM
No, video . . . . . the origin of purchase in AZ doesnt matter. We should trade moonbeam, ole meg, and most of congress for one Brewer.

Brown Rock
04-16-2010, 4:39 PM
So if I buy a handgun in CA, I may have it unloaded, locked, and stored in my trunk, and as soon as I am in Arizona, I can open my trunk, unlock my handgun, and load it, and walk around with it concealed in my holster legally?

Or does the gun have to be bought in Arizona? Anyone know?

Good question. Is this for Arizona residents only?

five.five-six
04-16-2010, 4:41 PM
in before the


:dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=291431

fd15k
04-16-2010, 4:45 PM
One needs a CCW to go into school zones to avoid Federal violation, no ?

videogameland
04-16-2010, 4:46 PM
1. Avoid extra step when buying a gun at an FFL.
2. CCW reciprocity in states that honor AZ permit.
3. Many face to face sellers will only sell to permit holders.
4. CCW permit still required to enter certain business' that serve alcohol.

I like buying guns from private sellers. No FFL fees, no background checks, no paperwork, no registration, and no inconvenient business hours so #3 is my reason for considering renewal in 4 years.

It is perfectly legal for a non-prohibited person to openly carry a loaded pistol in Arizona. I do not think anyone needs additional training on how to pull a pistol out of a holster, pocket, purse, etc. Arizona, Alaska, and Vermont think the same way.

ETA: Georgia, Washington, and Pennsylvania do not require training for a CCW.
About 29 states do not require any training for openly carrying a gun including California.

I agree with you for the most part, but what about that guy who accidently discharged his handgun inside walmart? This happened in arizona, saw it on a post somewhere in this forum. He basically took the gun out of his holster and was playing with it until it was discharged accidently, the girl who worked their got scared and called the police, and he was arrrested. What a dbag. Glad he didnt shoot any innocent wal mart shoppers.

Snooper
04-16-2010, 4:50 PM
"However, the measure was supported by police unions representing rank-and-file officers, who said their best friend on the streets is a law-abiding citizen equipped to protect themselves or others.

The police chiefs group initially opposed the bill but then took a neutral stance after some provisions were changed at their request. Brewer's office also participated in negotiations on changes to the bill."

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 5:23 PM
I agree with you for the most part, but what about that guy who accidently discharged his handgun inside walmart? This happened in arizona, saw it on a post somewhere in this forum. He basically took the gun out of his holster and was playing with it until it was discharged accidently, the girl who worked their got scared and called the police, and he was arrrested. What a dbag. Glad he didnt shoot any innocent wal mart shoppers.

You bring up a good concern. That Walmart is the closest SuperWalmart to me and the closest one that has ammo all the time. The incident occured around 2am and I was there later in the day CCWing and hunting for ammo. Had that happened while I was there I do not know what I would have done as my wife does the grocery thing while I hang out in sporting goods and electronics. I was at the same spot the guy was unholstering while he was in electronics earlier in the day. On the video it shows him dropping his mag in the checkout lane. The way he was handling the gun and the reaction he had implied to me he was under the influence of something. He had no reaction. It also turns out that he was a Dept. of Corrections flunkie. He must have had some training on weapons yet there still was a negligent discharge.

You simply cannot regulate stupidity and carelessness. A permit and training will not prevent stupidity.

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 5:27 PM
in before the


:dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe: :dupe:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=291431

Sorry, I only skimmed this subforum since it applies closest to this one.

vrand
04-16-2010, 5:57 PM
Can we borrow Brewer for a year to help us get our rights back?

:thumbsup:

videogameland
04-16-2010, 6:03 PM
You bring up a good concern. That Walmart is the closest SuperWalmart to me and the closest one that has ammo all the time. The incident occured around 2am and I was there later in the day CCWing and hunting for ammo. Had that happened while I was there I do not know what I would have done as my wife does the grocery thing while I hang out in sporting goods and electronics. I was at the same spot the guy was unholstering while he was in electronics earlier in the day. On the video it shows him dropping his mag in the checkout lane. The way he was handling the gun and the reaction he had implied to me he was under the influence of something. He had no reaction. It also turns out that he was a Dept. of Corrections flunkie. He must have had some training on weapons yet there still was a negligent discharge.

You simply cannot regulate stupidity and carelessness. A permit and training will not prevent stupidity.

Thats cool, the Wal Marts in CA dont sell real handgun ammo =\. How did you get to watch the video? Could you tell what gun this under the influence flunkie was carrying? Where did the bullet hit, the ceiling? Anyways for something like that to happen in a Wal Mart and not to mention a state (Arizona) which protects the laws of gun owners and allows them to carry guns legally, this flunkie instead of protecting himself and good law abiding citizens, endangers the good people shopping in walmart, thank goodness no one was shot by his accidental discharge. He deserves to have his gun rights(priviledges) taken away for good, Do you know what the punishment is for accidental discharge in public? Accidental discharge is the WORST thing anyone can do. That really shows the complete lack of respect he has for his gun and people. Again what a douche bag. :21:

ttboy
04-16-2010, 6:04 PM
Great Job Arizona!!!!!
I'm in the process of transferring to Arizona in June. I already have my summer CCW guns

Free America here I come.

Californio
04-16-2010, 6:28 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.
But I do admire the spirit of the law.

We will have to see how this plays out

If you have a AZ CCW and buy a retail firearm, no background check, cash and carry. If you don't have a CCW then normal background check will be performed. PPT is still cash and carry for all. Ability to carry in a bar.

SickofSoCal
04-16-2010, 6:34 PM
Can we borrow Brewer for a year to help us get our rights back?
I love this woman. She will be my governor when I move to AZ

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 6:43 PM
Thats cool, the Wal Marts in CA dont sell real handgun ammo =\. How did you get to watch the video? Could you tell what gun this under the influence flunkie was carrying? Where did the bullet hit, the ceiling? Anyways for something like that to happen in a Wal Mart and not to mention a state (Arizona) which protects the laws of gun owners and allows them to carry guns legally, this flunkie instead of protecting himself and good law abiding citizens, endangers the good people shopping in walmart, thank goodness no one was shot by his accidental discharge. He deserves to have his gun rights(priviledges) taken away for good, Do you know what the punishment is for accidental discharge in public? Accidental discharge is the WORST thing anyone can do. That really shows the complete lack of respect he has for his gun and people. Again what a douche bag. :21:

Video.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-shoots-round-into-ceiling-at-el-Mirage-Walmart-in-front-of-people-90280642.html

devilinblack
04-16-2010, 7:06 PM
the Wal Marts in CA dont sell real handgun ammo.

Off topic, but how do you define "real handgun ammo"? I live in North OC and my two closest walmarts are fairly well stocked with 9mm, .357, .40, sometimes .45 ACP.

By fairly well stocked I mean it's there more often than not. Maybe not 3 brands of everything, but you've got a better than 50/50 chance of finding a box of what you need. Except .380 but I hear those are only sold by unicorns now.

Paladin
04-16-2010, 7:30 PM
Fantastic News! ! !

I can easily see about a half-dozen states (MT, WY, ID, NM, UT, and/or TX) passing Constitutional Carry within the next 5 years.

I'm glad to see that Radical Gun Nuttery is on the ball. He's already updated his animation of the modern RTC movement: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

And don't forget: Iowa may be going Shall Issue before the end of this month.

Ah! Time to pop open an adult beverage, put my feet up, and pop in a favorite DVD to see what the train stations of Arizona will be like when this takes effect ;): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juwwCTBZOCQ

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 7:39 PM
Fantastic News! ! !

Ah! Time to pop open an adult beverage, kick my heels up, and pop in a favorite DVD to see what the train stations of Arizona will be like when this takes effect ;): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juwwCTBZOCQ

Replace train stations with golf cart parking spaces and you'll be up to date. These elderly guys here really like their prime parking.

hitman13
04-16-2010, 8:34 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.
But I do admire the spirit of the law.

We will have to see how this plays out
:rolleyes: Remember when you come to AZ not to carry concealed until you have an AZ CCW then. You really wouldn't want to turn yourself into a hypocrite....

CitaDeL
04-16-2010, 8:35 PM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.
But I do admire the spirit of the law.

We will have to see how this plays out


I dont think anyone should be allowed near a keyboard without a basic keyboard class and understanding of English grammar and punctuation. Its not enough that one can just be able to read. Furthermore, those without certification in public speaking and diction are just sh*t out of luck if they want to step up on the soapbox (no one wants to hear the ramblings of an incoherent idiot). And while I am setting the record straight, I'd like to be sure that those of you who happen to practice some form of worship- I think you should pay a tax on the sales of your religious books and the collection of your tithes.

oops. Just kidding. I just wanted to illustrate the direct parallels between the 1st and the 2nd amendments and how ridiculous it sounds when someone wants to disallow something based on compulsory training and knowledge.

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 8:51 PM
:rolleyes: Remember when you come to AZ not to carry concealed until you have an AZ CCW then. You really wouldn't want to turn yourself into a hypocrite....

We don't discriminate. He can ccw here with almost any state permit if he wants to pay for one. :)

1SGMAT
04-16-2010, 8:59 PM
I think she passed it because Buzz Mills has her on the run.

hitman13
04-16-2010, 8:59 PM
We don't discriminate. He can ccw here with almost any state permit if he wants to pay for one. :)
oh I know, but just want to make sure that he hasthe understnading of the AZ laws.

EVERY ONE OF THEM. Because, you know that you can learn every law pertaining to it, as well as understand and retain them, from an 8 hour class......:rolleyes:

audiophil2
04-16-2010, 9:39 PM
oh I know, but just want to make sure that he hasthe understnading of the AZ laws.

EVERY ONE OF THEM. Because, you know that you can learn every law pertaining to it, as well as understand and retain them, from an 8 hour class......:rolleyes:

Yes. 8 hours covers everything you need to know about justified use of deadly force, marksmanship, self-defense, and situational awareness. That's why military personnel spend most of their time making beds in boot camp.

I personally have my instructor follow me everywhere so he can tell me when I can shoot. He also makes sure the bad guys stay motionless, 20 feet away, and patient enough so I can hear him say, "Line is hot, you may now fire!"

I will never need more than 8 mandated hours of training.

Quiet
04-17-2010, 12:37 AM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then?

So, you can legally carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption (resturants/bars/etc.).
Even with the new law, it is illegal to carry in an establishment that sells alcohol for consumption if you do not have a CCW permit.

vrand
04-17-2010, 4:31 AM
Great Job Arizona!!!!!
I'm in the process of transferring to Arizona in June. I already have my summer CCW guns

Free America here I come.

:cheers2:

videogameland
04-17-2010, 7:24 AM
Off topic, but how do you define "real handgun ammo"? I live in North OC and my two closest walmarts are fairly well stocked with 9mm, .357, .40, sometimes .45 ACP.

By fairly well stocked I mean it's there more often than not. Maybe not 3 brands of everything, but you've got a better than 50/50 chance of finding a box of what you need. Except .380 but I hear those are only sold by unicorns now.

Which walmart are they? What I meant was they only sell airsoft gun ammo like pellets and bb's lol. Maybe I missed the real ammo? Are they hiding behind a counter or something?

videogameland
04-17-2010, 7:29 AM
Video.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-shoots-round-into-ceiling-at-el-Mirage-Walmart-in-front-of-people-90280642.html

thanks for linking the video, wow so lucky no one was shot, that guy is mental. He basically still wore his dept. of corrections uniform after he was fired, scary.

Legasat
04-17-2010, 8:16 AM
Arizona has my respect for being smart enough to put good people in office.

Now, what can we in California learn from this....?

johnny_22
04-17-2010, 9:50 AM
One needs a CCW to go into school zones to avoid Federal violation, no ?

That's why I don't understand how people are so happy about this. Avoiding the 1k' school zones is tough to do. Better to repeal the GFSZ act first before repealing the requirement.

dustoff31
04-17-2010, 10:27 AM
First, F15k is correct. One is exempted from the GFSZ if they have a CCW.


That's why I don't understand how people are so happy about this. Avoiding the 1k' school zones is tough to do. Better to repeal the GFSZ act first before repealing the requirement.

The GFSZ is a federal law, a state cannot repeal it. Some states have enacted their own version of it however, which still doesn't remove or replace the federal law.

Also bear in mind that the SCOTUS has struck down the federal GFSZ law once before. I don't ever recall hearing of anyone being charged with that crime here in AZ, unless it was an add on for something much more serious.

The new law notwithstanding, there are many good reasons to obtain a permit if one wishes to CCW on a regular basis.

bodger
04-17-2010, 3:14 PM
Cool, discouraging illegal aliens and letting go of the grip on the second amendment all in one week. Now, if we can only get our politicians to do the same thing.

Don't hold your breath! :mad:


I agree with Jake.
It will never happen in California. Anyone who wants to experience that kind of common sense from state government, had best wrap their head around the concept of moving to another state.

dennab
04-17-2010, 9:53 PM
As a new transplant to AZ from CA, I am euphoric about this news but do have some reservations as well.

However, with several key laws being passed or pending, I am happy to reside in a state that is giving some freedoms back and enforcing other laws (like immigration) that will further benefit our state and nation. God bless the Copper State!

glockwise2000
04-17-2010, 11:01 PM
Can we borrow Brewer for a year to help us get our rights back?


Brewer + house and senate. Brewer itself can not make the law change without the approval of the congress.

hitman13
04-18-2010, 1:49 AM
Text from SB1108 on what is now (will be when law takes effect) acceptable training to get a AZ CCW:

N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

1. Completion of any firearms training program that is approved by the department of public safety and that is conducted by instructors who are authorized by the department of public safety or who possess current national rifle association instructor certifications in pistol and personal protection and who submit to a background investigation, including a check for warrants and a criminal history records check.

2. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety.

3. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

4. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

5. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

6. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

7. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

8. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

9. Completion of any other firearms training that the department of public safety deems acceptable.#6 is huge, especially because you do not need to be an AZ resident to get a CCW.

JDay
04-18-2010, 2:44 AM
That's why I don't understand how people are so happy about this. Avoiding the 1k' school zones is tough to do. Better to repeal the GFSZ act first before repealing the requirement.

I doubt Arizona police enforce federal law. How likely are you to be stopped by a federal police officer while in a school zone?

Quiet
04-18-2010, 3:46 AM
Text from SB1108 on what is now (will be when law takes effect) acceptable training to get a AZ CCW:

N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

1. Completion of any firearms training program that is approved by the department of public safety and that is conducted by instructors who are authorized by the department of public safety or who possess current national rifle association instructor certifications in pistol and personal protection and who submit to a background investigation, including a check for warrants and a criminal history records check.

2. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety.

3. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

4. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

5. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

6. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

7. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

8. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

9. Completion of any other firearms training that the department of public safety deems acceptable.


#7 is great for anyone who has a resident and/or non-resident CCW permit from another state.

hitman13
04-18-2010, 6:32 AM
I also like it because now if your AZ CCW expires it will be so easy to get the new one again :)

MindBuilder
04-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Several people have said that one should wait till this takes effect in August to start carrying. It doesn't seem to me that it is necessary to wait. You could be arrested without recourse, but if you were charged, you could just claim that the law banning concealed carry without a permit is an infringement of your 2nd Amendment rights. In order to infringe the right to bear arms, they would have to have some justification, such as increased danger. But how could they argue that it's too dangerous if they just passed a law to allow it? Wouldn't the charges have to be thrown out?

dustoff31
04-18-2010, 6:04 PM
Several people have said that one should wait till this takes effect in August to start carrying. It doesn't seem to me that it is necessary to wait.

Why should one wait? Because only an ***hole who doesn't care about obeying the law and is looking for trouble would not wait.

You could be arrested without recourse, but if you were charged, you could just claim that the law banning concealed carry without a permit is an infringement of your 2nd Amendment rights. In order to infringe the right to bear arms, they would have to have some justification, such as increased danger. But how could they argue that it's too dangerous if they just passed a law to allow it? Wouldn't the charges have to be thrown out?

Yes, you could claim that. And you would be wrong. You have no constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, especially in a place where permits are "shall issue" and open carry is perfectly legal.

Then, you would be found guilty of violating ARS 13-3102, Misconduct involving Weapons. 6 Mos in Jail and/or $2500 fine.

If this is your attitude toward obeying our firearms laws, and I have to assume laws in general, please don't ever come to AZ.

dennab
04-18-2010, 8:29 PM
I live here as well and will be waiting.....all we need are some d'bags to start carrying now and they'll shut this thing down faster than a speeding bullet. AZ gun owners need to step up, be responsible, follow the law to the f'ing letter and allow this give-back of our rights to settle in.

+1 on Dustoff's comments above.

GuyW
04-19-2010, 7:00 AM
Why should one wait?

I definitely think everyone should wait....

....but to play DEvil's advocate, the news stories carried the Governor's statement tieing this bill to the 2nd Am.....perhaps the bill contains a statement of legislative intent that makes CCW a 2nd Am right IN AZ....

.

windrider
04-19-2010, 11:29 AM
I only have one thing to say to this, Vote for Jan Brewer for the 2012 Presidency. Just write his name in on the bottom.

The Director
04-19-2010, 11:41 AM
I only have one thing to say to this, Vote for Jan Brewer for the 2012 Presidency. Just write his name in on the bottom.

Jan Brewer is a female, just fyi.

The Brit
04-19-2010, 3:48 PM
Text from SB1108 on what is now (will be when law takes effect) acceptable training to get a AZ CCW:

#6 is huge, especially because you do not need to be an AZ resident to get a CCW.

Even before this bill, a non-resident could have an AZ CCW. I've had one for some time, even though I'm a CA resident.

MindBuilder
04-19-2010, 3:51 PM
dustoff31 wrote:
Why should one wait? Because only an ***hole who doesn't care about obeying the law and is looking for trouble would not wait.
The Second Amendment IS the law. If Arizona law says something is illegal and the Second Amendment says its legal, then the Arizona law is void and the thing is legal. The basic starting assumption in a free country is that people are free to do anything they want unless it violates the rights of others or there is some other good reason to infringe the people's freedom. What possible reason can the State of Arizona give now to claim justification to infringe people's freedom (to carry concealed)? If there was any disrespect for the law, it was when these bans were passed without respect for the Second Amendment or freedom.

...if you were charged, you could just claim that the law banning concealed carry without a permit is an infringement of your 2nd Amendment rights.
Yes, you could claim that. And you would be wrong. You have no constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon without a permit, especially in a place where permits are "shall issue" and open carry is perfectly legal.

You assert that there is no right to carry without a permit but your only support for that assertion seems to be that we don't have the right because we can get a permit or carry openly. But as I've pointed out above, we have the right to do anything we want unless there is a good reason otherwise, and you haven't explained what justifies the infringement of our right to carry arms however we see fit, at least in Arizona after this law has been passed.

If I was the governor of Arizona I would require that all law enforcement officers be notified that to arrest someone for unlicensed concealed carry immediately after the passage of this bill would be an unjustifiable arrest and would put the officer at risk of a case for civil rights violation. I see no excuse for this law not to have taken effect immediately. In fact, because of the nature of this law, I think the law does effectively take effect immediately, regardless of whatever date it was supposed to have taken effect.

Then, you would be found guilty of violating ARS 13-3102, Misconduct involving Weapons. 6 Mos in Jail and/or $2500 fine.
I wouldn't be surprised at an arrest if the officer was looking for an excuse, but do you really think Arizona prosecutors have enough time to waste prosecuting such a hard to win case against someone who was just doing something the Arizona government says it's going to be OK to do in a couple months anyway? My guess is you would probably just be offered a plea bargain too gentle to turn down.

hitman13
04-19-2010, 6:33 PM
Even before this bill, a non-resident could have an AZ CCW. I've had one for some time, even though I'm a CA resident.
I know, I was stating that now non residents will be able to just send in their DD214 as proof of training, much like how I believe FL is....

GuyW
04-19-2010, 9:13 PM
The Second Amendment IS the law. If Arizona law says something is illegal and the Second Amendment says its legal, then the Arizona law is void and the thing is legal.

....You assert that there is no right to carry without a permit but your only support for that assertion seems to be that we don't have the right because we can get a permit or carry openly.

You are confusing 2 issues (why?):

1. What many people believe the 2nd Am means, based on historical evidence (theoretical position);

2. What the 2nd Am means (in part), as stated by the US Supreme Court in Heller. Heller specifically states that concealed carry can be regulated. Whether it is correct, that interpretation currently has the power of government behind it, and only (IMHO) a fool would knowingly put themselves at risk of arrest.....especially when we are so close to having more 2nd Am rights than have existed in 50 years...

.

RollerCam
04-19-2010, 9:31 PM
Good reply to "dustoff," Mr. Mindbuilder. I'd much rather hear from a renegade spirit over a government-groveler any day.

Those people who are so respectful of government issued permits should stop and think about what a "permit" actually is.

A permit is basically permission (along with the required monetary payment) to do something that would otherwise be considered illegal.

I never could stomach the idea of paying a fee to exercise my Constitutional rights.:)

MindBuilder
04-19-2010, 10:18 PM
GuyW wrote:
Heller specifically states that concealed carry can be regulated.
I don't remember Heller stating that specifically and I couldn't find that in the Heller opinion by searching for "concealed". I'd appreciate it if you could cite the exact line or state an exact phrase to search for. I found what is close to what you claim in the following quote from Heller:
...the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the
question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed
weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or
state analogues.
But notice that the above quote says what the majority of courts in the 19th-century found. It doesn't state the current court's opinion on the matter, and so is actually only a strong suggestion. It leaves the question open, and given that the court knows that such things are parsed with great precision, it can be assumed that the court was intentionally leaving the question open.

At one time the banning of concealed carry may have been considered a reasonable restriction on Second Amendment rights. I can think of two reasons why; it was thought that mostly only persons with bad character would want to carry concealed rather than openly, and it was thought that concealed carry would increase the murder rate. But while those justifications may have been reasonable back when the culture was different and good statistics were hard to come by, times have changed so that those justifications can no longer be defended, especially not when the state government has officially rejected them. Strangely, this could actually mean that the Second Amendment didn't protect concealed carry when it was enacted, but does now, because an infringement that could be reasonably justified then, no longer can. I think this is a legitimate example of something like the living constitution theory.

only (IMHO) a fool would knowingly put themselves at risk of arrest
There are other reasons like school zones and restaurants with alcohol that probably make it worth the trouble to get a permit. But the risk of arrest for a law abiding citizen seems so tiny that it seems a stretch to call it foolish. I could well be mistaken, but to say it's foolish is going too far (and isn't a very humble opinion). And to spite asking twice, there still has been no answer to my question of what justification for the infringement of freedom the prosecution in Arizona could use in such a case.

Quiet
04-19-2010, 11:31 PM
The Second Amendment IS the law. If Arizona law says something is illegal and the Second Amendment says its legal, then the Arizona law is void and the thing is legal.

Until SCOTUS decides on McDonald v Chicago, the Second Amendment only applies to the Federal government and it does not apply to state/local governments.

Until the Second Amendment is incorporated, state/local governements can legally infringe upon it.

quick draw mcgraw
04-20-2010, 12:12 AM
I would seriously consider moving to Arizona if it wasn't such a flippin inferno 9 months out of the year!! :sweatdrop:

hitman13
04-20-2010, 12:23 AM
"It's a dry heat" :laugh:

Seriously though, it is only "hot" like 3.5 months out of the year. The rest of the time it is very plesant. You get used to the heat too....

quick draw mcgraw
04-20-2010, 12:31 AM
"It's a dry heat" :laugh:

Uh huh, just like my convection oven. LOL

I've been to spring training and played golf in Scottsdale/Phoenix several times in March/April and love it, but my aunt and uncle are RV snowbirds and I hear horror stories of 115-120 degrees of your dry heat when they leave a week too late.

30rdMag
04-20-2010, 12:42 AM
Thank you Gov. Brewer!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100416/ap_on_re_us/us_xgr_concealed_weapons_arizona


"I believe this legislation not only protects the Second Amendment rights of Arizona citizens, but restores those rights as well," Brewer said in a statement.

WARNING: DO NOT CCW IN ARIZONA WITHOUT A PERMIT UNTIL THE LAW TAKES EFFECT IN LATE AUGUST/SEPTEMBER.

Woo Hooo.... nice to hear.... B.T.W. I live in surprise too... off litchfield and bell area.. we should hit the range sometime and share our pictures to the californias of all the cool stuff we can own... J/k

But yeah I'm always looking to go out to the range...

Canute
04-20-2010, 3:14 AM
Whats the point of having a Az CCW then? I don't think anyone should be allowed to carry without basic training and understanding of AZ laws.

I think most people who are the legal law abiding carrying type will do this out of their own self interest.

MindBuilder
04-20-2010, 10:06 AM
Until the Second Amendment is incorporated, state/local governements can legally infringe upon it.
No. It's not legal for them to infringe. They can break the law and get away with it, as some states did in the south for a long time after the civil war, but it's not legal for them to violate the 2nd and 14th amendments, regardless of what the courts say. And I doubt the Heller majority would uphold a prosecution for concealed carry without a permit, in a state that just legalized it.

I repeat for the fourth time: What possible justification could be given now for such an infringement of freedom in Arizona? Every time that question goes unanswered, you all strengthen my argument.

CHS
04-20-2010, 10:17 AM
I repeat for the fourth time: What possible justification could be given now for such an infringement of freedom in Arizona? Every time that question goes unanswered, you all strengthen my argument.

Wow.. REALLY?

WHO CARES. Constitutional carry will be fully legally backed in just a few months. Why on earth does anyone care so badly enough to push it?

In fact, if it's so constitutional, why on earth weren't you unlawfully concealed carrying a year ago?

Just. Wait. It's really not that hard.

audiophil2
04-20-2010, 11:32 AM
I repeat for the fourth time: What possible justification could be given now for such an infringement of freedom in Arizona? Every time that question goes unanswered, you all strengthen my argument.

People CCW without permits everyday in all 50 states and around the world and many do it with zero intention of committing a crime. They express their right to take on those risks involved in doing that. Does that mean everyone must do it? No. Those that choose not to have that right.
So my justification is because it is my choice. You do believe in freedom of choice, right?

TMC
04-20-2010, 11:49 AM
Nothing biased about the article though, I mean showing a picture of a rack of AR's for a story about carrying a pistol is good fair journalism, right?

audiophil2
04-20-2010, 11:51 AM
Nothing biased about the article though, I mean showing a picture of a rack of AR's for a story about carrying a pistol is good fair journalism, right?

The advertisements are the most truthful part of a newspaper.
Thomas Jefferson

audiophil2
04-20-2010, 11:56 AM
Woo Hooo.... nice to hear.... B.T.W. I live in surprise too... off litchfield and bell area.. we should hit the range sometime and share our pictures to the californias of all the cool stuff we can own... J/k

But yeah I'm always looking to go out to the range...

Since this week is gonna have a few of those ultra rare below 120f days we have 365 days a year here I plan on going to Ben Avery for a few hours. I'm near Surprise Stadium and can pick you up if you have time off during the morning. I need to dump a few hundred rounds out of a G26 I picked up cash and carry yesterday.

boxbro
04-20-2010, 12:05 PM
Ah, to live in America. Arizona is looking more and more appealing every day!

12 years from now, I'm there.
My son will be 18 then.

blerg
04-21-2010, 11:36 AM
Reciprocity.



The Right states "Keep and BEAR arms" and "Shall not be infringed".

If you don't have to have basic training to BUY (keep) a gun, why should you need one for carrying (bear) a gun?

Why do we request police officers to have training?

N6ATF
04-21-2010, 11:52 AM
Why do we request police officers to have woefully inadequate training?

Fixed.

Untamed1972
04-21-2010, 11:55 AM
Why do we request police officers to have training?


Because they're being paid and are expected to meet a higher standard. BTW.....that actual firearms training LEOs get in the academy doesn't really amount to that much. It's not like every cop on the street is a friggin' Delta operator or something. I get so tired of that line of reasoning.....it's just the uniformed spouting the propaganda they've been fed and to why cops are better suited to protect you then you are to protect yourself.

RollerCam
04-23-2010, 9:20 AM
"Why do we request police officers to have training?"

Did you really want an answer to that question?

OK... could it be because LEO's go looking for trouble almost every day of their careers?

Could it be because their employers need to have them competent in firearms or else face massive litigation in the aftermath of weapons misconduct by a poorly trained officer?

*********

You're not another one of those people that say "I support the 2nd Amendment, but I feel that all CCW holders should be trained, fingerprinted and have their background checks done by the FBI. Oh yeah, and they should have to pay for the privilege, too" are you?

.
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CD MCKINNEY
04-23-2010, 8:15 PM
Vermont has had "no permit CCW" for decades and Alaska for several years, with no increase in gun violence and less crime, overall. There were many who said there would be "blood in the streets", in the 90's when "shall issue" CCW laws were beginning and that didn't happen; crime decreased.

So I have no concerns about living here in Phoenix, with my fellow citizens packing there pistols without permits. I will still renew my permit in 2011, as I like the extra benefits. There will always be fools and crazies, and if they "go off" around me I'll fill them full of hollow points from my:

....DW [pre-CZ] PM10-S 10MM....
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj381/CDMCKINNEY/DSCF0002.jpg

CD MCKINNEY
08-01-2010, 9:05 AM
Well it's been a few days since the new "no CCW permit required" law has been in affect. I haven't heard any reports of people "going berserk" and filling the air with lead, so I guess we'll be OK here in AZ. I carried concealed [illegally] for years when I lived in "Commifornia", and I knew a number of others who did [and still do] carry a piece without a permit [and] if I still lived there [ugh] I would be carrying too.

We have had legal [loaded] "open carry" for decades in Az. and THAT never caused people to [generally] "freak out" [and] spray everybody with hollow points, so all of "them" who are against "gun freedoms" can pucker up on my [semi tanned] behind.

There are decades of genuine, truthful and documented national/state statistics that prove the positive results of "gun freedom" and those who oppose it are just politically motivated, un-American, panty waists who would rather cower in hiding, calling the police and expecting to be saved INSTEAD of taking responsibility for their own lives and standing up to those who would threaten it. Wimps, cowards, lilly livers and disgraces is what they are.

Here's something of mine that "fills the air with lead" nicely

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj381/CDMCKINNEY/SPIKES-1.jpg

Libertarian777
08-01-2010, 12:45 PM
they should enforce stricter driver's license testing.

more car accidents / fatalities a year than negligent discharges.

handling a firearm while under the influence of a substance is tatamount to driving under the influence and should be prosecuted the same way.

we could argue about how much training etc. one should have for ccw, but it won't get us anywhere.

Sounds like that guy in the walmart was brandishing a firearm, which should by all means be an offence. Being allowed to carry a loaded firearm doesn't mean you can run around a shop cocking the weapon, loading/unloading it etc. esp while under the influence.

So, nothing wrong with keeping and bearing your arms, even in public, but brandishing in a negligent, irresponsible or threatening manner is a crime. That includes dumbasses at the local range who don't practice muzzle control while approaching the shooting stations.